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InvisibleZiggen
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: paradox_]
    #7747752 - 12/12/07 12:22 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

paradox_ said:
I don't understand how more guns being around would have stopped this guy from killing anyone.




If any one of the women he had killed had been carrying a gun, she, along with all the women killed after her, would still be alive.


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Invisibletiny_rabid_birds
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: Ziggen]
    #7747764 - 12/12/07 12:31 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ziggen said:
Quote:

paradox_ said:
I don't understand how more guns being around would have stopped this guy from killing anyone.




If any one of the women he had killed had been carrying a gun, she, along with all the women killed after her, would still be alive.




oh please. for every violent crime privately owned guns are used to stop in the US, there are like ten more they facilitate. i'm going to admit that that ratio is complete bullshit, but i would NOT be surprised if it was that drastic or even moreso, given that statistic of 2/3rds of murders in the US being the result of gun-use.

a statement such of yours is far too much of a boy-in-the-bubble scenario, ignoring all the other negative effects public gun-use would have.


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Invisibletiny_rabid_birds
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #7747775 - 12/12/07 12:35 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)



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InvisibleZiggen
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #7747813 - 12/12/07 12:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

tiny_rabid_birds said:
ahem.. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7747762/an/0/page/0



Quote:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/12/11/national/main3608589.shtml?source=mostpop_story

CBS/AP) Six young people were shot at about 2 p.m. in a northeast Las Vegas neighborhood Tuesday after they stepped off a bus that had left a high school. Authorities say at least one person was critically injured in the attack, which happened just blocks away from two elementary schools.

"They were just like sitting ducks as soon as the bus pulled away - bam bam bam - they start getting shot like that," says Elaine Budesa, an eyewitness




What's your point? It's a shame that none of those kids were armed so that they could defend themselves.


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Invisibletiny_rabid_birds
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: Ziggen]
    #7747826 - 12/12/07 01:05 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

wow.  that is such a good idea.  let's give all kids guns so they can defend themselves!  holy shit, that's a nobel prize winning thought process right there.  nevermind the irresponsible gun use that already runs rampant causing thousands of deaths yearly.  the obvious answer is just put guns into the hands of children with absolutely no qualifications and training who are often impetuous and driven by emotion.

:rolleyes:


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #7747835 - 12/12/07 01:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I would have loved it if I got to carry my gun in high school.  :shrug:


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Invisibletiny_rabid_birds
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7747838 - 12/12/07 01:10 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

lotta people love meth. doesn't make it a good idea.


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InvisibleZiggen
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #7747847 - 12/12/07 01:14 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Lots of kids are trained and qualified to use guns. Also, the more people there are carrying guns around me, the safer I feel. When was the last time you heard about a mass shooting at a gun show or NRA meeting, instead of a supposedly gun-free area like a school or a post office.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #7747858 - 12/12/07 01:25 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I view guns like any other tool.  They offer society some good but they also bring along bad. 

For example, automobiles have allowed a level of comfort and transportation unparalleled throughout history and this has enriched our lives.  But, they also kill about a hundred thousand people a year (about ten times the amount of people killed by guns).  However, the positives of cars outweigh the negatives.  I view guns in the same way.  The positives of gun legality outweigh the negatives.

We must ensure that there are appropriate rules in place that will mitigate the negatives of said tools.  Hence we have speed limits and mandatory licensing for cars.  We also have rules in place for guns.  I don't think we need anymore gun regulations.  :shrug:


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Invisibletiny_rabid_birds
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: Ziggen]
    #7747861 - 12/12/07 01:29 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

it's not simply physical training and the ability to handle a gun safely. it's more about mental and emotional maturity that are required for the user not to fly off the handle. teenagers are ridiculously angsty. you're fucking daft beyond belief if you don't realize increased teenage access to guns won't result in a HUGE increase in school shootings and rash suicides in during a bout of hormonal emotions.

yes, an NRA meeting will most likely not end up in a shootout, because many of those users are full-grown adults that have been using guns for years and have an appropriate respect for what they're capable of. but increased availability for those qualified means the easier it will be to get guns off of the black market, which gets the guns into hands with very negative intentions. if handguns weren't so fucking prevalent, then you'd never feel the need to own your own. you wouldn't have to worry about it.

there's no point in arguing over this. you're hardly even making any legitimate points. i can't believe you actually condoned not only widespread gun ownership of high school students, but their taking the guns to class. absolutely ridiculous. it's really mind-blowing.

i'm done. planet earth is calling me. i think jungles is the next one i have.


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Invisibletiny_rabid_birds
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7747864 - 12/12/07 01:33 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
I view guns like any other tool.  They offer society some good but they also bring along bad. 

For example, automobiles have allowed a level of comfort and transportation unparalleled throughout history and this has enriched our lives.  But, they also kill about a hundred thousand people a year (about ten times the amount of people killed by guns).  However, the positives of cars outweigh the negatives.  I view guns in the same way.  The positives of gun legality outweigh the negatives.

We must ensure that there are appropriate rules in place that will mitigate the negatives of said tools.  Hence we have speed limits and mandatory licensing for cars.  We also have rules in place for guns.  I don't think we need anymore gun regulations.  :shrug:




but it's a fucking positive feedback loop.  a cycle of violence feeding upon itself.  the more available guns are to qualified, registered users, the more available they become to violent criminals and unstable psychopaths through the black market.  the more violent crimes that occur, the more people feel they need to protect themselves, and more people get guns.

if you weren't afraid of every mugger/carjacker/thug dealer carrying a gun, then you wouldn't feel the need to carry a gun.  then people's lives would not be stake at the mere pull of a trigger.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: Ziggen]
    #7747865 - 12/12/07 01:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

In my hometown there are never any home invasions. Everybody owns multiple guns because it's a rural/big hunting area. If you break into a home when the homeowner is there then you will probably die.


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Invisibletiny_rabid_birds
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7747869 - 12/12/07 01:37 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

increased thefts and burglaries vs. increased violent homicides

i don't know about you, but that's not even a comparison worth questioning imho.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #7747875 - 12/12/07 01:46 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

tiny_rabid_birds said:
but it's a fucking positive feedback loop. a cycle of violence feeding upon itself. the more available guns are to qualified, registered users, the more available they become to violent criminals and unstable psychopaths through the black market.




If you made guns illegal then only criminals would have them and crime would increase dramatically because they would know that the vast amount of citizens wouldn't be able to protect themselves.

Just because a few psychos go off the handle and because some criminals choose to disobey the law doesn't mean that we should limit law-abiding citizen's access to firearms. If some dumbfuck got drunk and got in a car accident does that mean my car should be taken away from me?

There are already so many firearms in the hands of law-abiding citizens and in the hands of the black market that restricting their sale isn't going to do a damn bit of good...because the market is already saturated.

Did you watch Bowling for Columbine or something?


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7747879 - 12/12/07 01:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
In my hometown there are never any home invasions.  Everybody owns multiple guns because it's a rural/big hunting area.  If you break into a home when the homeowner is there then you will probably die.




You mean 'someone' will die, not necessarily the home owner.

Most people who own guns/rifles don't have a clue how to handle them properly or handle them in pressure situations.

But to me the biggest problem is not guns or the laws around them, but rather the society and its attitudes. People often say look at how safe Switzerland is, with all its guns/rifles and military training! SEE guns = safe.

Yet the truth is, if you have ever ventured outside your own country you'd see that switzerland 'feels' safe, and nobody is worried about home invasions or murder when they are walking home.

What happens when you walk home in NYC? or hear a strange noise outside your apartment in Dallas? Fear is the biggest problem with the problems of gun violence.

State of mind is to blame in gun violent countries, not the actual guns/laws themselves.

I'm surprised a drug site like this doesn't get that, since we see how an utter failure tough drug laws are and that the fear of drugs is just a joke to society once you realize the lies of it all.

So gun safety is all about human state of mind and a society not riddled with fear of the black man, fear of your neighbor, fear of your daughter walking home from school, etc..

Its not that hard to see what the problem is, people keep focusing on statistics and crap that isn't the problem :frown:


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: Thor]
    #7747894 - 12/12/07 01:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Thor said:
State of mind is to blame in gun violent countries, not the actual guns/laws themselves.




Fear is not causing gun violence in the U.S.  The vast majority of homicides are committed because of one of the two following reasons: 

1.  Anger (somebody pisses you off and you want to get them back).
2.  Greed (somebody wants to take something from someone and they kill them in the process).

Fear has nothing to do with these things.  Most homicides in this country are either pissed off people taking someone out or criminals killing citizens or other criminals.  Law-abiding and responsible gun-owners commit very very few gun homicides.

When black males commit homicide at 8 times the rate of white males...then us white people have every right to be wary of the black community and its inherent criminality.  In my city black people make up 25% of the population yet they account for 95% of the homicides.  :shrug:  Is it my fault that they seem intent on blowing each other away?  Nope.  Just because other people act irresponsibly with their firearms doesn't mean that mine should be taken away from me.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #7747898 - 12/12/07 02:02 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

tiny_rabid_birds said:
increased thefts and burglaries vs. increased violent homicides

i don't know about you, but that's not even a comparison worth questioning imho.




It's not law-abiding citizens who are killing people. It's criminals. Criminals don't obey laws anyways. You can pass whatever law you want, illegalize whatever you want, and they will ignore it. The only defense that we have against such criminality is to be armed sometimes. Sometimes the police aren't going to get there in time and you have to handle stuff yourself.


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7747902 - 12/12/07 02:04 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Oh there is much more to it than fear, but its a very real component.

You state that 98% of gun crimes in your area are that of black people, so you 'fear' them or the danger they create. Wrong or right, its facts.

I'm not sure where you see me suggesting laws against ownership of guns or that I'm debating against you. I'm in fact for responsible ownership and use of firearms. I'm just blatantly aware of the difference of living in the US under the fear of gang violence, media over portraying fear/danger, and the reason why so many stupid people have firearms.

It all starts with the state of mind, gun violence in the USA isn't because of any lack of laws; its because of gangs, poverty and other huge factors people don't touch with a 1000 foot pole since they fear being called racists.

I don't blame black people, I blame the societial situation that has led to the problems. How you fix them, fuck knows but its obvious where the vast majority of gun violence comes from.


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Invisibletiny_rabid_birds
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7747914 - 12/12/07 02:16 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Quote:

tiny_rabid_birds said:
but it's a fucking positive feedback loop. a cycle of violence feeding upon itself. the more available guns are to qualified, registered users, the more available they become to violent criminals and unstable psychopaths through the black market.




If you made guns illegal then only criminals would have them and crime would increase dramatically because they would know that the vast amount of citizens wouldn't be able to protect themselves.

Just because a few psychos go off the handle and because some criminals choose to disobey the law doesn't mean that we should limit law-abiding citizen's access to firearms. If some dumbfuck got drunk and got in a car accident does that mean my car should be taken away from me?

There are already so many firearms in the hands of law-abiding citizens and in the hands of the black market that restricting their sale isn't going to do a damn bit of good...because the market is already saturated.

Did you watch Bowling for Columbine or something?




i never suggested any policy change in the US for that very reason. honestly, i haven't a clue how to fix america's vast amount of gun-related violence, so i won't pretend like i do.

my argument simply started with that dude's claim that "if one of those women had a gun, then it would have stopped long ago", which basically suggested canada should allow guns. more guns in society does NOT fucking mean a safer society. that's bullshit, pure and simple.

and no, i didn't watch any movie or anything. i've just never been a proponent of guns, and people making retarded claims really tends to rile me up.


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: canada is safer than the united states, right [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #7747923 - 12/12/07 02:22 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

tiny_rabid_birds said:
Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Quote:

tiny_rabid_birds said:
but it's a fucking positive feedback loop. a cycle of violence feeding upon itself. the more available guns are to qualified, registered users, the more available they become to violent criminals and unstable psychopaths through the black market.




If you made guns illegal then only criminals would have them and crime would increase dramatically because they would know that the vast amount of citizens wouldn't be able to protect themselves.

Just because a few psychos go off the handle and because some criminals choose to disobey the law doesn't mean that we should limit law-abiding citizen's access to firearms. If some dumbfuck got drunk and got in a car accident does that mean my car should be taken away from me?

There are already so many firearms in the hands of law-abiding citizens and in the hands of the black market that restricting their sale isn't going to do a damn bit of good...because the market is already saturated.

Did you watch Bowling for Columbine or something?




i never suggested any policy change in the US for that very reason. honestly, i haven't a clue how to fix america's vast amount of gun-related violence, so i won't pretend like i do.

my argument simply started with that dude's claim that "if one of those women had a gun, then it would have stopped long ago", which basically suggested canada should allow guns. more guns in society does NOT fucking mean a safer society. that's bullshit, pure and simple.

and no, i didn't watch any movie or anything. i've just never been a proponent of guns, and people making retarded claims really tends to rile me up.




Also there is a lot of gun/rifle ownership in Canada to begin with, per capita speaking.

Here's a thought, had we not had prostitution illegal a lot of these women wouldn't have been in harms way. Legalize prostitution, control it.

That would cut down on crime surrounding it in a big way.


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