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Offlinemoeburn
Blastimus Smashimus
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Registered: 04/24/06
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Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks!
    #7746420 - 12/11/07 06:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Sign the petition! http://www.avaaz.org/en/another_canadian_climate_crime/

International officials and experts have named Canada the worst country in the world on climate change as a result of PM Harper’s climate plan: wreck any chance of an international agreement being reached at the UN summit in Bali this week.


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Everything I have posted on the shroomery.org forums is completely fictional and created out of my own mind.  Any similarity to any current or past event is purely coincidental.


...and of this humongous fungus among us, more of its core's spores are creeping out of the drawer, pouring over the floor, and soaring through the door. Do not ignore this lore, for the spores are their precious ore. - moeburn

"Repugnant is the creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, while conscious of their fleeting time here." - Maynard Keenan


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: moeburn]
    #7746430 - 12/11/07 06:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

moeburn said:
International officials and experts have named Canada the worst country in the world on climate change



You mean it's not the US???  Woohoo!  We're number 2!  We're number 2!  We're number 2!  :woot:


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OfflineWScott
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Registered: 07/31/05
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: moeburn]
    #7746505 - 12/11/07 06:57 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

:mad2:

Well, sent it to a bunch of people. Do these petitions even do anything though?


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Offlinebodynotdead
TrichodermaCultivator
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Registered: 05/10/07
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: WScott]
    #7746649 - 12/11/07 07:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

“The UN conference is a complete waste of our time and your money and we should no longer pay the slightest attention to the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change,)” LINK

“Government officials and activists flying to Bali, Indonesia, for the United Nations meeting on climate change will cause as much pollution as 20,000 cars in a year.” LINK


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"absolute power corrupts absolutely".
Lord Acton,


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InvisibleLuddite
I watch Fox News
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: bodynotdead]
    #7746764 - 12/11/07 08:03 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Oh Boy! That's means more dividends for me from the Canadian oil and gas trusts.


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OfflineSummerOfLove
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Registered: 11/11/07
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Luddite]
    #7747614 - 12/11/07 11:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I fucking hate Harper, he wants to adopt the filthy american doctrines, god damn neocons....


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: SummerOfLove]
    #7748048 - 12/12/07 04:54 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> I fucking hate Harper, he wants to adopt the filthy american doctrines, god damn neocons....

I don't care for Harper. Not all Americans are hippies... most of them actually shower and are not filthy... and not all Americans are neo-cons. Finally, and unfortunately, I agree with Harper with respect to climate change and the UN.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: moeburn]
    #7748420 - 12/12/07 08:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Prime Minister Stephen Harper once called the Kyoto accord a "socialist scheme" designed to suck money out of rich countries, according to a letter leaked Tuesday by the Liberals.


Harper 'O8!


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7749351 - 12/12/07 01:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i'm glad such forward thinking individuals are able to get elected in canada. now hopefully we will get people who can see the big picture for the us next november. what if we got rudy to get us into a war with iran? how fun that would be! maybe they could ban gay marraige and make stem cell research take even longer to get results. gotta love the neocon nonsense.


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"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7749424 - 12/12/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Prime Minister Stephen Harper once called the Kyoto accord a "socialist scheme" designed to suck money out of rich countries, according to a letter leaked Tuesday by the Liberals.



What he doesn't realize is that cutting greenhouse emissions will actually save us money, because if you're using less fuel, you don't have to buy as much.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7749478 - 12/12/07 01:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Which is all well and good, silversoul, but if you spend $1,000 to save $100 of fuel you haven't saved any money at all, have you? You can spend thousands of dollars putting R100 insulation in a house but the structure will fall down before you recoup the investment in fuel savings.

Harper is right. Global warming is essentially a socialist scam. Aside from being total bullshit, it's bullshit targeted to curtail the wealthy.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7749590 - 12/12/07 02:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

If you don't think humans can and are impacting global climate then I have lost even more respect for you Zappa. I'm not for all this alarmist nonsense about the icecaps melting and killing everyone, but thats not the issue here. The issue is 100 years form now when the world is fucked because we didn't do anything now.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7749655 - 12/12/07 02:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The idea that CO2 drives climate change is ridiculous. If you want to know what drives the temperature of the earth look up in the sky on a sunny day. Don't look up when it's raining, though, you might drown.


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7749680 - 12/12/07 02:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If you want to know what drives the temperature of the earth look up in the sky on a sunny day.  Don't look up when it's raining, though, you might drown.




horrid asshole:grin:


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7749789 - 12/12/07 03:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

What he doesn't realize is that cutting greenhouse emissions will actually save us money, because if you're using less fuel, you don't have to buy as much.




Yes, that is how it works in fantasy land. Unfortunately, in the real world, things are different. (Please don't take offense at my term fantasy land. Fantasy land becomes real world if all countries are held to the same standard.)

What really happens... "developing" countries, such as India and China, are exempt under Koyoto. Rather than pay more for "green tech", businesses will outsource their production to countries that are exempt from pollution controls. Prices and pollution will both go up due to shipping costs, jobs will be lost at home.

Koyoto is flawed. Until all countries are held to the same standard, regardless of wealth or population, any sort of agreement is nothing more than a bunch of people patting themselves on the back for pretending to have done something.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7749812 - 12/12/07 03:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I suggest you guys read Natural Capitalism by Paul Hawken and Amory Lovins. They go into great detail about the cost-cutting smart design measures that can be taken by companies which greatly reduce their energy needs. You might want to look into how much Texas Instruments saved with their latest factory by using the latest innovations in smart building design. While you're at it, why not inform them that they're living in fantasy land? I don't think they got the memo.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7749834 - 12/12/07 03:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The idea that CO2 drives climate change is ridiculous. If you want to know what drives the temperature of the earth look up in the sky on a sunny day. Don't look up when it's raining, though, you might drown.



Oh, you mean that thing that's been burning since before the earth was formed? Funny, I don't see it being anything new. The flux in solar radiation has conformed to climate change in the past, but it if you study the graphs, there's a sharp split between the two over the past 20 years. Meanwhile, when you add greenhouse gases to the equation, then the graph starts to make more sense.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7749948 - 12/12/07 03:58 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

for some people the quote "open ears, closed minds" rings a bell...

global warming = reality

neocons = fantasyland


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflineWScott
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Registered: 07/31/05
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7750108 - 12/12/07 04:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I read in the newspaper today that 'China' says that American's should stop living so luxuriously, preempted by talks about regulations for environmental improvement. According to the article, America produces six times more pollution per capita than China, but because of China's population, they produce a lot more overall. It is situations like this, I believe, that will hinder any hope of an international standard - though something definitely needs to be done.

If solar energy could be taxed, we would not even be discussing this right now.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7750114 - 12/12/07 04:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
for some people the quote "open ears, closed minds" rings a bell...

global warming = reality

neocons = fantasyland




Great, you can play follow-the-leader. It would be nice if you contributed to the debate by adding something new.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7750128 - 12/12/07 04:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> While you're at it, why not inform them that they're living in fantasy land?

There is no doubt that green tech can save money in some cases. However, this is the rare case, not the common case. Even if it is the common case, most companies are short sighted and are unwilling to invest in the technology when they can outsource immediately and save money. I wish it weren't so, but such is the nature of greed.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7750166 - 12/12/07 04:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Oh really. Perhaps that explains the climate change on Mars. Or that rise in CO2 concentrations follow rises in temperature. Or that CO2 concentration is so low as to be nearly insignificant (380 parts per million) compared to water vapor. Must be some magical gas.

You all can be as dumb as you want but nothing will end up being done and nothing will end up happening and this will all go away just like the last global cooling fad.
http://www.climate-skeptic.com/
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2007/10/09/court-identifies-eleven-inaccuracies-al-gore-s-inconvenient-truth
http://icecap.us/index.php/go/joes-blog/comments_about_global_warming/
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/4391


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7750222 - 12/12/07 05:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Even if it is the common case, most companies are short sighted and are unwilling to invest in the technology when they can outsource immediately and save money. I wish it weren't so, but such is the nature of greed.



It is the common case. It's just a matter of companies waking up to the new paradigm. The Rocky Mountain Institute specializes in helping companies save money, energy, and resources through innovative design and strategy. They have worked with several Fortune 500 companies, as well as many small companies, and I know of no instances where they have not succeeded in helping them achieve substantial savings. The principles of Green design are sound, and it has proven itself over and over again. It is only due to laziness and lack of information that more companies are not following suit. But that will surely change in the years to come.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7750349 - 12/12/07 05:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I hope you are correct... but the cynic in me doubts it.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7751454 - 12/12/07 09:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think there's any question that the earth is pretty resilisent, however, there is more to this global warming than simply CO2 emissions and other results of fossil fuel use. We cannot stay on a fossil fuel economy forever, and this is a fact. Our oil reserves we have now will serve us much better in the future when we need them to synthesize complex plastics and other things that are far more useful than cars, which could be made to run with other sources of energy.

Some people think that there is going to be one solution to all of this, be it solar power, nuclear power, or even coal. The fact of the matter is, its not going to be this simple, which is why many people have a hard time adjusting to the very real fact that our world will be done great harm by putting off alternative fuels. We may not be meeting apocalypse, but the sooner people fix the problem, the better, and if global warming is a motivation for them to do so, so be it. Your websites are a joke zappa, don't feed me that crackpot nonsense, lets see some real scientific journals. What you are doing is like arguing intelligent design.


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Loc: BC Canada
Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7752501 - 12/13/07 03:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The Kyoto protocol is a socialist scheme to suck money from rich contries and funnel it to poor ones?

The equivalent of this sort of nonesensical talk would be to just make jibberish sounds.
Mblah, kujut onery wert henber. Bah.

That ought to be the next Conservative party election slogan. You know, like how last time it was "stand up for Canada"




t would be more intelligent than what usually comes out of their mouths.

Fuck Harper is such a shitty, shitty PM for this country. Although he seems to have a certain level of support, he's really having a hard time getting what he needs. There is a very strong opposition to him that would never be pursuaded to vote for him, and I keep trying to believe that this ultra right wing government might just end up being a short lived thing.


Edited by carbonhoots (12/13/07 03:36 AM)


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: carbonhoots]
    #7752555 - 12/13/07 04:24 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Kyoto protocol is a socialist scheme to suck money from rich contries and funnel it to poor ones?

The equivalent of this sort of nonesensical talk would be to just make jibberish sounds.
Mblah, kujut onery wert henber. Bah.




Great. Care to actually debate and provide some examples that show how Kyoto is not a socialist scheme rather than demonstrating your baby-talk abilities?


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Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7752697 - 12/13/07 06:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The burden of proof is on you. The Kyoto protocol was designed as a treaty to prevent climate change, to say anything else would require evidence.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7752799 - 12/13/07 07:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Great. Care to actually debate and provide some examples that show how Kyoto is not a socialist scheme rather than demonstrating your baby-talk abilities?



Care to demonstrate how it is? Last I remember, socialism was about putting the means of production in the hands of the proletariat. I see nothing in the Kyoto protocol which calls for that.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7752831 - 12/13/07 08:14 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> I see nothing in the Kyoto protocol which calls for that.

I prefer to think of it as redistribution of wealth rather than socialism. As I said earlier, until all countries agree to equal cuts (or caps), the producers of pollution will simply move production (assuming it is more cost effective than going green) to places where they can pollute. For the most part, companies are driven by short term profit, and will do whatever is cheapest in the short term.

Edit: My one and only issue with Kyoto is that it exempts "developing" countries.


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Just another spore in the wind.


Edited by Seuss (12/13/07 08:19 AM)


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Registered: 09/11/01
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7755851 - 12/13/07 08:59 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I don't care to debate my ranting and raving. Sorry.

Anyways...never fear companies moving to pollute where they can.

Footloose capital can be compelled to stay put through law!

Anyways, the Kyoto protocol calls for bigger emission reductions from the rich countries in the first round, because it is the rich countries who have pumped out most of thae CO2 over the last century. The developing countries did not cause the problem, but in future rounds of cuts, the Kyoto protocol compels the developing countries to reduce their emissions too.


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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: carbonhoots]
    #7756355 - 12/13/07 10:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

lets look at the revenue for car manufacturers. ford and gm are in the shitter while toyota and honda are making major bank because they have more fuel efficient cars. i'm sorry but it seems to me going green helped the japanese auto makers. the example crosses every other sector of the economy as well. companies that go green end up saving their consumers money as well as themselves. so this just means more sales therefore more profits. i can see how communist going green is...:rolleyes:


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7756887 - 12/14/07 12:19 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah really. Ford and GM also strongly resisted getting regulated into producing fuel efficient cars way back when. They would of been better of not to of spent millions on that lobbying campaign, cuz now they'd have cars people actually want to buy.

So what does that tell you? The market can be a blind fool, and that controling the economy throught the government can work very well.


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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: carbonhoots]
    #7757190 - 12/14/07 03:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> because it is the rich countries who have pumped out most of thae CO2 over the last century.

Why should anybody care?!  If the world is really dying, then everybody has to pitch in to save it.  It is insane that a country would say, "We are going to continue killing the planet until the damage we have done is equal to the damage your ancestors did!"  Your statement reinforces my position; Kyoto is nothing more than a wealth redistribution plan.  Either the world is dying and everybody must pitch in, or the world isn't dying, and nobody should have to pitch in.

> Footloose capital can be compelled to stay put through law!

And yet the law is working in the opposite direction... why?  Politicians and lobbyist.  How does my "selling" pollution (through "carbon credits") to a country (or company) that doesn't currently pollute help reduce pollution?  It doesn't.  It redistributes wealth and appears that I am doing something beneficial when I haven't done anything at all.

> ford and gm are in the shitter while toyota and honda are making major bank because they have more fuel efficient cars

... and it has nothing at all to do with Japanese business methods and ethics compared to their competitors?  I would love to see a study that backs up your claim that the reason Japanese car makers do better than US car markers is because Japanese cars are more fuel efficient.

> companies that go green end up saving their consumers money as well as themselves

Perhaps, in the long term.  In the short term going green is a huge cost.  Companies, for the most part, are driven by short term profits.  How, exactly, does it save a coal burning power plant money to install scrubbers on their smoke stacks rather than dumping all their toxins in to the air?

> i can see how communist going green is...:rolleyes:

What does government taking ownership of everything have to do with going green?

> Ford and GM also strongly resisted getting regulated into producing fuel efficient cars way back when.

I guess the research I did for GM back in 1990-1991 for the battery powered GM Impact was really an effort by GM to stay away from producing fuel efficient cars.  The impact was killed by the oil companies.  You are pointing the finger at the wrong culprit.

> So what does that tell you? The market can be a blind fool, and that controling the economy throught the government can work very well.

Ah, back to government controlled redistribution of wealth in the name of pollution control.  Thanks for making my case for me.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7757709 - 12/14/07 09:58 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7757742 - 12/14/07 10:11 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

In this study, we examine the economic viability of improving fuel economy as a strategy to mitigate the risk of high fuel prices and to gain a competitive advantage.




What am I supposed to learn, exactly? That in the future transportation markets, the demand for hybrid (or fuel efficient) vehicles is going to increase? I already know that.

(I actually know the guy that wrote the summary you referenced. He used to work for GM.)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7757796 - 12/14/07 10:32 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Ford and GM are in the shitter because of their labor costs.
There is no global warming
It is not caused by human activity
There is nothing to be done about it
It is a scam


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7757949 - 12/14/07 11:15 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> There is no global warming

There is dynamic climate change, and we are in a period of accelerating change. (I'm not refuting your comment; instead I am trying to define terminology within context.)

> It is not caused by human activity

The accelerating climate change would be occurring right now regardless of mankind. However, I think it is safe to say that mankind isn't helping the situation and that reduction in pollution is a good thing. What concerns me are the eco-terrorists that use 'global warming' to scare people into fixing something that may not be broken resulting in more damage than good. I'm not talking about people that recycle or ride a bike instead of drive a car. I am talking about the people that burn SUVs and ski lodges, or that try to prevent the natural changes from occurring (such as covering glaciers or pumping CO2 into the ocean) without understanding the impact that their actions have on the planet.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7757962 - 12/14/07 11:20 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

However, I think it is safe to say that mankind isn't helping the situation and that reduction in pollution is a good thing.




Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant.




Phred


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Phred]
    #7757966 - 12/14/07 11:21 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

It is, however, a greenhouse gas, and we are producing tons of it.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7757995 - 12/14/07 11:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant.

From wiki:

Quote:

Pollution is the introduction of pollutants (whether chemical substances, or energy such as noise, heat, or light) into the environment to such a point that its effects become harmful to human health




From webster (pollute):

Quote:

to contaminate (an environment) especially with man-made waste




However, I wasn't speaking towards CO2, but rather the waste that mankind produces in general.


Edit: Just re-read this... my point with the definitions is to show that CO2 being pollution or not is relative to the "situation". This wasn't very clear in my original post. For example, on Apollo 13, after the CO2 scrubbers were spent, the gas was certainly a pollutant.


Edited by Seuss (12/14/07 12:03 PM)


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7758155 - 12/14/07 12:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

suess i suggest you read the entire report, it details how increased fuel economy in cars has a direct result on market share. this explains why gm and ford cant sell cars while honda, toyota, nissan etc can. you asked for a study proving my claim and i gave it to you. denying it further is your problem.


--------------------
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"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7758170 - 12/14/07 12:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The idea that CO2 drives climate change is ridiculous. If you want to know what drives the temperature of the earth look up in the sky on a sunny day. Don't look up when it's raining, though, you might drown.




http://solar-center.stanford.edu/sun-on-earth/FAQ2.html


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7758455 - 12/14/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

That was an interesting article. Did you notice in the graph that temperature rise preceded CO2 increases? Also, the latest info in that was from 2001. Further, they linked to something that said this:
Quote:

They determined that a dimmer Sun reduced the model's westerly winds, cooling the continents during wintertime. Shindell's model shows large regional climate changes, unlike other climate models that show relatively small temperature changes on an overall global scale. Other models did not assess regional changes.




So a dimmer sun makes it colder but a hotter sun doesn't do anything? This was before NASA had to restate temp data that showed the 1930s to be the hottest decade. Here, have a taste of this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/19/nbook119.xml

Quote:

Christopher Booker's notebook

By Christopher Booker, Sunday Telegraph
Last Updated: 4:00am BST 20/08/2007

Inconveniently, the 1930s were the hottest decade

Recent days have brought to light four more highly "inconvenient truths" for our global warming alarmists. The first caused acute embarrassment to Nasa's Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS), exposing a serious flaw in its record of US surface temperatures since 1880. The error was so glaring that, on August 7, GISS had to post revised figures which show, instead of temperatures reaching their highest level in the past decade, that the hottest year of the 20th century was not 1998 but 1934. Of the 10 warmest years since 1880, it turns out that four were in the 1930s and only three in the past decade.

The significance of this is that James Hansen, the head of GISS, has been Al Gore's closest scientific ally for nearly 20 years in promoting the global warming scare. The revised figures relate only to temperatures in North America but the fact that the pre-eminent scientific champion of the orthodoxy has been promoting erroneous data has considerable implications.




The previously mentioned Shindell, the main source for your global warming conjecture, wrote his opinion in 2001 (or earlier) based on faulty data. Shindell is this guy:

Quote:

Dr. Drew Shindell is an ozone specialist and climatologist at the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies . His research is concerned with global climate change, climate variability, and atmospheric chemistry. He uses climate models to investigate chemical changes such as the depletion of the ozone layer, climate changes such as global warming, and the connections between these two.




He was a climate researcher at the institute that had to restate its data to reflect a cooler planet AFTER he threw his opinion into that paper. Now, doesn't that seem to suck? I mean that in a sciencey way, not a political way.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7758503 - 12/14/07 01:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I'd be interested if any global warming deniers can produce a single article from a peer-reviewed scientific journal that supports their claims. There's certainly an abundance of such articles supporting the contrary position.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7758530 - 12/14/07 01:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I'd be interested if any global warming deniers can produce a single article from a peer-reviewed scientific journal that supports their claims. There's certainly an abundance of such articles supporting the contrary position.




Every time a study fails to find a change it bolsters, but cannot prove, a denial of what by and large is proving to be ersatz science. These, of course, would not be published because they didn't show anything either way.
Computer models and busted data are not exactly scientific.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7758561 - 12/14/07 02:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"Just re-read this... my point with the definitions is to show that CO2 being pollution or not is relative to the "situation". This wasn't very clear in my original post. For example, on Apollo 13, after the CO2 scrubbers were spent, the gas was certainly a pollutant."

The problem, of course, is that the earths natural "carbon scrubbers" are not sufficient to remove the excess C02 we are creating, which, even in what may seem like minuscule concentrations, causes our atmosphere to retain more heat, which only further enhances the original problem.

Now, this doesn't necessarily mean apocalypse, but even small changes in temperature on a global scale, maybe 1 or 2 degrees, could greatly affect growing seasons and ecosystems. Furthermore, higher CO2 concentrations can lead to increased vegetation, which may provide some beneficial effect, as long as it does not go to far and imbalance an ecosystem. Another problem is that we are loosing our coral reefs because of these seemingly minute changes. I may be sentimental, but when I visited the great barrier reef as a kid I hoped that I would be able to go back.


Edited by xFrockx (12/14/07 02:10 PM)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7758596 - 12/14/07 02:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> I'd be interested if any global warming deniers can produce a single article from a peer-reviewed scientific journal

There are plenty of papers out there that discuss dynamic climate change without stooping to the fear mongering used by the global warming crowd. Unfortunately, going against global warming is professional suicide; this is well documented.

Here is what one kooky meteorologist had to say recently (Nov 2007):
Quote:

[Global warming] is the greatest scam in history. I am amazed, appalled and highly offended by it. Global Warming; It is a SCAM. Some dastardly scientists with environmental and political motives manipulated long term scientific data to create in allusion of rapid global warming. Other scientists of the same environmental wacko type jumped into the circle to support and broaden the “research” to further enhance the totally slanted, bogus global warming claims. Their friends in government steered huge research grants their way to keep the movement going. Soon they claimed to be a consensus.

Environmental extremists, notable politicians among them, then teamed up with movie, media and other liberal, environmentalist journalists to create this wild “scientific” scenario of the civilization threatening environmental consequences from Global Warming unless we adhere to their radical agenda. Now their ridiculous manipulated science has been accepted as fact and become a cornerstone issue for CNN, CBS, NBC, the Democratic Political Party, the Governor of California, school teachers and, in many cases, well informed but very gullible environmental conscientious citizens. Only one reporter at ABC has been allowed to counter the Global Warming frenzy with one 15 minutes documentary segment.

I do not oppose environmentalism. I do not oppose the political positions of either party. However, Global Warming, ie Climate Change, is not about environmentalism or politics. It is not a religion. It is not something you “believe in.” It is science; the science of meteorology. This is my field of life-long expertise. And I am telling you Global Warming is a non-event, a manufactured crisis and a total scam. I say this knowing you probably won’t believe a me, a mere TV weatherman, challenging a Nobel Prize, Academy Award and Emmy Award winning former Vice President of United States. So be it.

I have read dozens of scientific papers. I have talked with numerous scientists. I have studied. I have thought about it. I know I am correct. There is no run away climate change. The impact of humans on climate is not catastrophic. Our planet is not in peril. I am incensed by the incredible media glamour, the politically correct silliness and rude dismissal of counter arguments by the high priest of Global Warming.

In time, a decade or two, the outrageous scam will be obvious. As the temperature rises, polar ice cap melting, coastal flooding and super storm pattern all fail to occur as predicted everyone will come to realize we have been duped. The sky is not falling. And, natural cycles and drifts in climate are as much if not more responsible for any climate changes underway. I strongly believe that the next twenty years are equally as likely to see a cooling trend as they are to see a warming trend.




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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7758623 - 12/14/07 02:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Every time a study fails to find a change it bolsters, but cannot prove, a denial of what by and large is proving to be ersatz science.  These, of course, would not be published because they didn't show anything either way.
  Computer models and busted data are not exactly scientific.



If you deny the change in climate itself, then you're not only behind science, but you're even behind a bunch of farmers in your understanding.  ALL the data shows the climate is changing.  There are some scientists who question the extent to which human activity is contributing to global warming, but it seems they either can't or won't get an article published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, as evidenced by this article.

Also thought you might find this tidbit interesting:
Quote:

With the release of the revised statement by the American Association of Petroleum Geologists, no scientific bodies of national or international standing are known to reject the basic findings of human influence on recent climate.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change

Damn those socialist scientists!  :cuss:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7758630 - 12/14/07 02:26 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)



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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7758635 - 12/14/07 02:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> I'd be interested if any global warming deniers can produce a single article from a peer-reviewed scientific journal

There are plenty of papers out there that discuss dynamic climate change without stooping to the fear mongering used by the global warming crowd. Unfortunately, going against global warming is professional suicide; this is well documented.

Here is what one kooky meteorologist had to say recently (Nov 2007):
Quote:

[Global warming] is the greatest scam in history. I am amazed, appalled and highly offended by it. Global Warming; It is a SCAM. Some dastardly scientists with environmental and political motives manipulated long term scientific data to create in allusion of rapid global warming. Other scientists of the same environmental wacko type jumped into the circle to support and broaden the “research” to further enhance the totally slanted, bogus global warming claims. Their friends in government steered huge research grants their way to keep the movement going. Soon they claimed to be a consensus.

Environmental extremists, notable politicians among them, then teamed up with movie, media and other liberal, environmentalist journalists to create this wild “scientific” scenario of the civilization threatening environmental consequences from Global Warming unless we adhere to their radical agenda. Now their ridiculous manipulated science has been accepted as fact and become a cornerstone issue for CNN, CBS, NBC, the Democratic Political Party, the Governor of California, school teachers and, in many cases, well informed but very gullible environmental conscientious citizens. Only one reporter at ABC has been allowed to counter the Global Warming frenzy with one 15 minutes documentary segment.

I do not oppose environmentalism. I do not oppose the political positions of either party. However, Global Warming, ie Climate Change, is not about environmentalism or politics. It is not a religion. It is not something you “believe in.” It is science; the science of meteorology. This is my field of life-long expertise. And I am telling you Global Warming is a non-event, a manufactured crisis and a total scam. I say this knowing you probably won’t believe a me, a mere TV weatherman, challenging a Nobel Prize, Academy Award and Emmy Award winning former Vice President of United States. So be it.

I have read dozens of scientific papers. I have talked with numerous scientists. I have studied. I have thought about it. I know I am correct. There is no run away climate change. The impact of humans on climate is not catastrophic. Our planet is not in peril. I am incensed by the incredible media glamour, the politically correct silliness and rude dismissal of counter arguments by the high priest of Global Warming.

In time, a decade or two, the outrageous scam will be obvious. As the temperature rises, polar ice cap melting, coastal flooding and super storm pattern all fail to occur as predicted everyone will come to realize we have been duped. The sky is not falling. And, natural cycles and drifts in climate are as much if not more responsible for any climate changes underway. I strongly believe that the next twenty years are equally as likely to see a cooling trend as they are to see a warming trend.






Was this statement found in a peer-reviewed scientific journal? I constantly hear people complaining that the 9/11 truth movement can't pass this litmus test, so why shouldn't I expect global warming skeptics to do the same? If they want to be taken more seriously than the Scholars for 9/11 Truth, they need to put up or shut up.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7758642 - 12/14/07 02:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The climate changes every hour. There is zero evidence of any warming trend beyond statistically random fluctuations. Computer models are not data and the data don't support the models.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7758661 - 12/14/07 02:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

take another look at that graph the CO2 levels were increasing steadily the entire time which corresponded well with increased temperatures. perhaps you should learn to read graphs zappa.

so the 1930's were warmer than the last decade. big whoop. the argument is that from the beginning of the industrial revolution that CO2 has been increasing along with global warming. not to mention that was an error that pertains only to north America not global temperatures and still 3 of the warmest years in north American history happened in the last decade. so i don't see how your argument debunks global warming...

http://solar-center.stanford.edu/sun-on-earth/GL264W01.pdf

another study by a university, they must be wrong right zappa? after all, they disagree with you and your claims which are based upon all those years you spent studying climate right? oh wait...
http://cos.gmu.edu/research/news/sciglobal


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


Edited by SlashOZ (12/14/07 02:55 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7758679 - 12/14/07 02:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The climate changes every hour.



No, that would be weather.  Apparently grade school has failed you.

Quote:

There is zero evidence of any warming trend beyond statistically random fluctuations.  Computer models are not data and the data don't support the models.



:lol: Ignorance like this must take a whole lot of effort.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7758838 - 12/14/07 03:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
take another look at that graph the CO2 levels were increasing steadily the entire time which corresponded well with increased temperatures. perhaps you should learn to read graphs zappa.




Like I said but without, perhaps, any emphasis, the temperature rise PRECEDES the rise in CO2 concentration. There and historically. You need a remedial course in graph reading and English comprehension.
Quote:



so the 1930's were warmer than the last decade. big whoop. the argument is that from the beginning of the industrial revolution that CO2 has been increasing along with global warming. not to mention that was an error that pertains only to north America not global temperatures and still 3 of the warmest years in north American history happened in the last decade. so i don't see how your argument debunks global warming...




The point was is that the data were wrong. Any conclusions or modeling done from that data are garbage.
Quote:



http://solar-center.stanford.edu/sun-on-earth/GL264W01.pdf




1998. Are you fucking kidding?
Quote:



another study by a university, they must be wrong right zappa? after all, they disagree with you and your claims which are based upon all those years you spent studying climate right? oh wait...
http://cos.gmu.edu/research/news/sciglobal



One thing about a social scientist is that they can't tell was is science and what is game-playing. From that link:
Quote:

The study put current climate models to the test and for the first time ranked these complex modeling systems in terms of accuracy. Results show that when models currently working to predict the Earth's climate are ranked in this way, the more reliable models tend to project higher estimates of global warming for the next century.




GIGO.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7758865 - 12/14/07 03:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The climate changes every hour.



No, that would be weather.  Apparently grade school has failed you.

Quote:

There is zero evidence of any warming trend beyond statistically random fluctuations.  Computer models are not data and the data don't support the models.



:lol: Ignorance like this must take a whole lot of effort.




Ignorance??

Its amazing that the Global Warming idiots think that normal and ongoing climate change is materially being made harmful by human activities and that humans can alter the climate back to someone’s idea of an ideal status.....:rolleyes:


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7758892 - 12/14/07 03:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Chew on this one zappa, it seems C02 can really pollute:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071210103939.htm

ScienceDaily (Dec. 12, 2007) — Carbon dioxide increasing in the atmosphere may affect the microbial life in the sea, which could have an impact on a major food source, warned Dr Ian Joint at a Science Media Centre press briefing December 10.

Dr Joint is sequencing the DNA of different ocean bacteria to find out how they will respond to an increase in carbon dioxide. "So far from one experiment we have sequenced 300 million bases of DNA, about one tenth the size of the human genome. We are analyzing this 'ocean genome' to see if changes might affect the productivity of the sea."

Worldwide, fish from the sea provide nearly a fifth of the animal protein eaten by man. If microscopic plants that fish eat are affected by carbon dioxide, this may deplete a major food source.

"Bacteria still control the world" said Dr Joint from Plymouth Marine Laboratory. "They ensure that the planet is fertile and that toxic materials do not accumulate." The carbon dioxide produced by humans is turning the oceans into weak acids. This century, the seas will be more acidic than they have been for 20 million years.

"There are many millions of different bacteria in the ocean. They control the cycling of oxygen, carbon, nitrogen and sulphur; microbes in the sea generate half of the oxygen produced globally every year." So the atmosphere could also be affected by ocean acidification. "Bacteria made the earth suitable for animals by producing oxygen nearly 2 billion years ago. We want to find out if human activities will have a major impact on microbial life in the seas and if this is likely to be a problem for mankind in the future."


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! *DELETED* [Re: Silversoul]
    #7758893 - 12/14/07 03:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by EntheogenicPeace

Reason for deletion: ---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/12/21 05:00 PM)


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7758920 - 12/14/07 03:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

you are still reading the graph wrongly...take a much closer look and you'll see where you went wrong, again.

so in the year 1998 all science was wrong or something? please explain.

the 1930's temps have nothing to do with it sense that study was about global(not north american) temps and solar output. i've given you studies showing that solar output isn't causing global warming and the best you can refute that with is that the 1930's were warmer than we thought in north america. which you haven't been able to prove the impact on any models, aside from your own assumptions about the issue.

oh and pointing out the word model also disproves global warming, way to go win this debate. maybe next time i'll point out every time you use the letter 'R' since that is about how applicable most of your arguements are to the debate.

i'm done arguing with you zappa, its like talking to a brick wall but the responses aren't as intelligent.

another good read for anyone who still doubts scientists but believes cooperations and the bush administration (lol)
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5702/1686

more reason to be concerned...
http://www.wfu.edu/news/release/2007.12.13.c.php


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
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"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


Edited by SlashOZ (12/14/07 03:59 PM)


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InvisibleGrizz
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7758991 - 12/14/07 04:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

There is no global warming
It is not caused by human activity
There is nothing to be done about it
It is a scam




:sad:  You're nothing short of amazing.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7759123 - 12/14/07 04:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Ignorance??

Its amazing that the Global Warming idiots think that normal and ongoing climate change is materially being made harmful by human activities and that humans can alter the climate back to someone’s idea of an ideal status.....:rolleyes:



His ignorance is in thinking that the climate is not actually getting warmer, contrary to what even the most skeptical of scientists have said.  BTW, these global warming "idiots" include every nationally and internationally recognized scientific organization that has commented on the matter.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7759154 - 12/14/07 04:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
I love how if I were to link the following...

http://www.prisonplanet.com/911.html

... & say, "See, this is proof 9-11 was an inside job!", then I would rightly be ignored. But "think tanks" whose principle financial contributor is ExxonMobil are somehow considered a valid source on info. on climate change. There's probably a few here who still believe the "scientists" who took money from Phillip Morris saying there's inconclusive evidence linking smoking cigarettes to lung cancer & emphysema. Hell, they probably are in denial that human activity is responsible for increased acidity of rainwater in places or that human activity in the form of releasing CFCs has a negative impact on the ozone layer.



To be fair, there are credible, respectable scientists who are not in the pockets of oil companies who still doubt anthropogenic global warming. There are also credible, respectable scientists who doubt that HIV causes AIDS. You don't tend to hear too much from those people.


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OfflineSilver Jay
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: moeburn]
    #7759716 - 12/14/07 07:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

harper is the anti-christ


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silver Jay]
    #7760003 - 12/14/07 08:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

this will all go away just like the last global cooling fad.


:thumbup:
we believed, 30 years ago, that global cooling was the biggest threat New York Times front page read.
Quote:

scientists say we must melt ice sheets.




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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: bodynotdead]
    #7760123 - 12/14/07 08:57 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I can't actually post pdfs and I don't have a webserver, but I'll paste the important bit of an article I found in Nature

Although this minimized the short-term effect on CO2, we note that the removal of respired DIC from the deep ocean would have caused the CO3 (2-) activity there to increase, deepening the lysocline; such deepening has long been recognized as a potential mechanism to deplete the oceanic alkalinity inventory and, hence, decrease global CO2 solubility. Thus, the removal of respired DIC from a large fraction of the deep sea would have caused an additional, long-term increase of pCO2 (ref. 32), helping to propel the climate system into the interglacial period.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7761198 - 12/15/07 09:00 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

No reasonable person who has spent much time looking into the science of this will put up much of a fight denying that the earth surface temperature station results seem to indicate there has been a slight rise in the surface temperature of the earth over the last century or so. There is, however, considerable reason to doubt the validity of a heck of a lot of the data from a heck of a lot of those stations -- especially those in the developed world. The thing is, if it can be shown that enough of those stations are producing bogus data, then scientifically speaking the data they contribute must be discarded.

Discarding the data of the surface stations then leaves us with temperature data solely from weather balloons and satellites, neither of which are anywhere near as definite about the warming of the earth. As a matter of fact, in the case of the most accurate global data (that from satellites), every year or two or you will come across an article somewhere reversing the previous understanding of what the satellite data shows -- one year it is that the data shows a very slight decrease in temperatures over the last thirty years, a year or two later someone claims to have found a flaw in the analysis and says the data shows a very slight increase, then that gets reversed again a year later, etc. The last I heard on the subject, the general opinion was that there has indeed been a very slight increase, but that the increase is well within the bounds of statistical error -- as have been all the previous flip flops on the satellite data.

The weather balloon data likewise shows at most a very slight increase over the last fifty years, but weather balloon data (especially in developing countries and over oceans) is scantier than surface station reports, and not as accurate as satellite reports.

Bottom line -- no one can honestly say with scientific certainty that the Earth is on average even a fraction of a degree warmer today than it was on average a hundred years ago.

However, it doesn't really matter. Let's assume for the sake of argument that the Earth really is almost a degree centigrade warmer on average today than it was a hundred years ago. It's not at all unlikely that it is, even if we can't prove so absent reliance on sketchy surface station data, so let's just take the worst case scenario, assume that the weather ballon data is wrong, the satellite data is wrong, but the surface data is correct -- the Earth was almost a degree cooler a century ago.

How does this piece of data show the rise in temperature over the last hundred years is due to humans burning stuff? Answer -- it doesn't. Every legitimate scientist working in the field must admit that the proxy records of past Earth surface temperature show repeated increases (and decreases) of far more than a degree in far less than a century. And that these temperature swings have been occurring on a more or less regular basis for eons longer than humans have been burning stuff.

There is as well the inconvenient fact that legitimate scientists working in the field must admit the proxy records show the increase in carbon dioxide levels has historically come after a rise in surface temperature -- usually several hundred years after. Zap has pointed this out several times, only to be ignored by the true believers here. Correlation does not equal causation.

As well, it has been pointed out that even though the atmospheric CO2 levels were reported as increasing at an almost steady rate over the last century or so, the average surface temperature of the Earth dropped from the 1940s to the 1970s. Three decades of rising carbon dioxide levels coinciding with three decades of dropping temperatures, yet we still have people insisting the reason the Earth started warming up again in the 70s was due to humans burning stuff. Hmmm.

The problem with the whole "the earth is getting hotter because humans are burning stuff" argument is that it cannot explain the hundreds (probably thousands) of times in the past where the Earth has become warmer with no help from humans. Yet the AGW (anthropogenic global warming) acolytes are unruffled by this -- "That was then, this is now. Yeah, humans burning stuff had nothing to do with the first two thousand warming cycles, but this time it is caused by humans, not by whatever caused the first two thousand."

And we don't even know that the reported increase in atmospheric CO2 levels is the result of human activity. Again, the proxy record shows many times in the past where CO2 levels rose to a far greater degree than they have in the last century -- with no help from humans at all. But again, the AGW acolytes chirp up "That was then, this is now. Yeah, humans burning stuff had nothing to do with the first two thousand or so increases in C2 concentration, but this time it is caused by humans, not by whatever caused the first two thousand."

In essence, the entire AGW argument rests on some pretty flimsy foundations:

-- greenhouse gases help keep the Earth's surface warmer than it would be without them
-- CO2 is a greenhouse gas
-- when humans burn stuff, CO2 is produced


--> therefore, the reported rise in Earth's average surface temperature over the last century is due to humans burning stuff.

No consideration of other factors known to have an effect on surface temperature -- solar radiance, mean distance from Earth to sun, percentage of atmospheric cloud cover, mean height of atmospheric cloud cover, axial precession, volcanic activity, surface albedo, atmospheric concentration of other greenhouse gases (including water vapor), magnetic field reversals, tectonic activity, and more. Nope -- it's just "Humans burn stuff, so the recent reported warming of the Earth must be due to that."

That's not science, my friends. Not anywhere close.



Phred


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Offlined33p
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7761352 - 12/15/07 10:31 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I'd be interested if any global warming deniers can produce a single article from a peer-reviewed scientific journal that supports their claims. There's certainly an abundance of such articles supporting the contrary position.




http://science-sepp.blogspot.com/2007/12/press-release-dec-10-2007.html

Climate warming is naturally caused and shows no human influence: Carbon dioxide (CO2) is not a pollutant.

Climate scientists at the University of Rochester, the University of Alabama, and the University of Virginia report that observed patterns of temperature changes (‘fingerprints’) over the last thirty years are not in accord with what greenhouse models predict and can better be explained by natural factors, such as solar variability. Therefore, climate change is ‘unstoppable’ and cannot be affected or modified by controlling the emission of greenhouse gases, such as CO2, as is proposed in current legislation.

These results are in conflict with the conclusions of the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and also with some recent research publications based on essentially the same data. However, they are supported by the results of the US-sponsored Climate Change Science Program (CCSP).

The report is published in the December 2007 issue of the International Journal of Climatology of the Royal Meteorological Society [DOI: 10.1002/joc.1651]. The authors are Prof. David H. Douglass (Univ. of Rochester), Prof. John R. Christy (Univ. of Alabama), Benjamin D. Pearson (graduate student), and Prof. S. Fred Singer (Univ. of Virginia).

The fundamental question is whether the observed warming is natural or anthropogenic (human-caused). Lead author David Douglass said: “The observed pattern of warming, comparing surface and atmospheric temperature trends, does not show the characteristic fingerprint associated with greenhouse warming. The inescapable conclusion is that the human contribution is not significant and that observed increases in carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases make only a negligible contribution to climate warming.”

Co-author John Christy said: “Satellite data and independent balloon data agree that atmospheric warming trends do not exceed those of the surface. Greenhouse models, on the other hand, demand that atmospheric trend values be 2-3 times greater. We have good reason, therefore, to believe that current climate models greatly overestimate the effects of greenhouse gases. Satellite observations suggest that GH models ignore negative feedbacks, produced by clouds and by water vapor, that diminish the warming effects of carbon dioxide.”

Co-author S. Fred Singer said: “The current warming trend is simply part of a natural cycle of climate warming and cooling that has been seen in ice cores, deep-sea sediments, stalagmites, etc., and published in hundreds of papers in peer-reviewed journals. The mechanism for producing such cyclical climate changes is still under discussion; but they are most likely caused by variations in the solar wind and associated magnetic fields that affect the flux of cosmic rays incident on the earth’s atmosphere. In turn, such cosmic rays are believed to influence cloudiness and thereby control the amount of sunlight reaching the earth’s surface—and thus the climate.” Our research demonstrates that the ongoing rise of atmospheric CO2 has only a minor influence on climate change. We must conclude, therefore, that attempts to control CO2 emissions are ineffective and pointless. – but very costly.


--------------------
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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Phred]
    #7761356 - 12/15/07 10:32 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Duh, Humans burn stuff, duh, stuff thats burnt is hot, so humans are heating the earth cuz they burn stuff, duh

You cant be serious. This discussion board is an elaborate game you like to play? You pretend to be a die hard skeptic, and never let anyone in on it.


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: carbonhoots]
    #7761372 - 12/15/07 10:39 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Oh yes, of course,

Burning stuff gives off greenhouse gases which trap the sun's heat.


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: carbonhoots]
    #7761436 - 12/15/07 11:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Duh, Humans burn stuff, duh, stuff thats burnt is hot, so humans are heating the earth cuz they burn stuff, duh




Burning stuff produces CO2, therefore (according to the AGW acolytes), the Earth has warmed over the last century because humans produced CO2 by burning stuff. The heat produced at the moment the stuff is burnt isn't even considered in their argument -- their argument concerns itself strictly with the addition to the atmosphere by humans of carbon dioxide.

Quote:

You cant be serious.




But I am serious. Dead serious.

Quote:

This discussion board is an elaborate game you like to play?




Nope. No game. The "solutions" the AGW acolytes propose to the "problem" of human-produced CO2 are incredibly destructive to human prosperity, hence to human survival. That ain't no game, sparky.

Quote:

You pretend to be a die hard skeptic, and never let anyone in on it.




I have no idea what this non sequitur translates to in English, so I'll let it sit with no further comment.



Phred


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Phred]
    #7761471 - 12/15/07 11:21 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Correlation does not equal causation.
Phred




Exactly:thumbup:


PEOPLE, we have been warming up since the last ice age!!!!!

Dumbass people coming up with Horseshit ideas from observations of 20 years of climate data over a lifetime of 4.5 Billion years of climate fluctuations:rolleyes:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


Edited by lonestar2004 (12/15/07 11:34 AM)


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Phred]
    #7761724 - 12/15/07 12:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/12/21 05:00 PM)


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7761734 - 12/15/07 12:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/12/21 05:01 PM)


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7761769 - 12/15/07 01:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/12/21 05:02 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7762000 - 12/15/07 02:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------


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Offlinehummermania00
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7762360 - 12/15/07 04:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
http://www.junkscience.com/JSJ_Course/jsjudocourse/1.html




Well I have to agree with zappa here.
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/comment/story.html?id=597d0677-2a05-47b4-b34f-b84068db11f4&p=4
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/viewthread.php?tid=571597

Check out the liks on global cooling in the next 12-30 years.
Yes CO is increasing, but temperature is a distict entity dependant entirely on the sun. Even with cooling as propsed in the links, we will still have CO.


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7762405 - 12/15/07 04:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/12/21 05:03 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7762531 - 12/15/07 05:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You continue to labor under two separate but distinct fallacies. That there is a consensus among scientists that humans are causing globull warming and that consensus connotes fact. I linked a specific page in the junkscience link. You would do well to actually read the junkscience short judo course. He gives quite a few examples and explains why they were junk.

Biased? Facts aren't biased. The UN is, though.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=prnw.20071213.DC09846&show_article=1
Lone Voice of Dissent Censored by United Nations

Quote:

CHICAGO, Dec. 13 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- For the second time this week, the International Climate Science Coalition (ICSC) was kicked off the press schedule for the United Nations' climate conference in Bali, Indonesia.

The ICSC is a group of scientists from Africa, Australia, Europe, India, New Zealand, and the U.S. who contend sound science does not support the outrageous claims and draconian regulations proposed in Bali.




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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7762988 - 12/15/07 07:28 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Heres a list of anti=global warming organizations and who funds them. If you site from any of these, you need to think twice, or three times, I'm looking at you d33p.

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science/skeptic-organizations.html


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7762994 - 12/15/07 07:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

No Zappa, your coalition is in Exxon's pocket:

http://members.greenpeace.org/blog/exxonsecrets
"So. Here I am at the climate conference in Bali where Exxon's team seems to be very busy trashing the science whilst the rest of the world is trying to solve climate change.

We have all sorts of groups turning up - but it seems the main lot is the Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow (CFACT) which has received $US 542,000 from ExxonMobil since 1998.

It got $US 70,000 just last year.

Also here is the International Policy Network which has received $US 390,000 from Exxon since 1998.

My colleague Kert has already blogged about the Heartland Institute's behaviour early in the week...

But as the Executive Secretary of the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change, Yvo de Boers, said the other day "The sceptics have had their hey day". This is abundantly clear. Nobody's questioning the science any more.

CFACT's little tricks here are verging on the hysterical - walking around the press centre abusing journalists, and offering free massages in the hope that people will come and listen to their ranting. Nobody is taking them seriously. In fact many journalists I've spoken to just want to write about how much money they get from Exxon.

They have launched the International Climate Science Coalition - a group set up by a New Zealand sceptic lot - interestingly, Brian Leyland from New Zealand is leading the CFACT delegation - despite denying any connections to Exxon money.

Meanwhile the NZ delegation seems to be taking a positive role, supporting a range of 25-40% cuts for industrialised countries. Doesn't look like Mr Leyland's having much of an effect."


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7763014 - 12/15/07 07:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

“Finally someone will pay for these [climate related] costs,” Othmar Schwank, a global tax advocate, told Inhofe EPW Press Blog following the panel discussion titled “A Global CO2 Tax.” Schwank is a consultant with the Switzerland based Mauch Consulting firm Schwank said at least “$10-$40 billion dollars per year” could be generated by the tax, and wealthy nations like the U.S. would bear the biggest burden based on the “polluters pay principle.” The U.S. and other wealthy nations need to “contribute significantly more to this global fund,” Schwank explained. He also added, “It is very essential to tax coal.”


The environmental group Friends of the Earth, in attendance in Bali, also advocated the transfer of money from rich to poor nations on Wednesday. “A climate change response must have at its heart a redistribution of wealth and resources,” said Emma Brindal, a climate justice campaigner coordinator for Friends of the Earth.
\
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/richard-newcomb/2007/12/14/global-warming-goals-revealed-will-media-report


Controlling carbon is a bureaucrat's dream.....

The Trial Lawyers are getting ready for action. Wait till they sue Exxon, GM, and your local power provider over the weather, I mean global warming.....


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7763035 - 12/15/07 07:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

my power comes from a renewable resource. in fact my state has so much of it they sell it to California. i have some of the lowest power rates in the country. yay for renewable!

tax the heck out of coal and other carbon polluters i say.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7763064 - 12/15/07 08:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

YEA!

Why can’t our planet just be like it used to be????

I vote for it to be like it was 50 million years ago!!!!

(that's 18-27 degrees warmer than now.)


That would be Paradise.....cause right now its cold as fuck outside.:(


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7764668 - 12/16/07 02:54 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> That would be Paradise.....cause right now its cold as fuck outside.:(

You make it sound as if we are coming out of an ice age or something?


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7765274 - 12/16/07 12:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Heres a list of anti=global warming organizations and who funds them. If you site from any of these, you need to think twice, or three times, I'm looking at you d33p.

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science/skeptic-organizations.html





How about you read the damn scientific journal that has nothing to do with sepp which contains the report that has nothing to do with sepp. Actually, just kill yourself, I'm looking at you xfrockx.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: d33p]
    #7765313 - 12/16/07 12:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"How about you read the damn scientific journal that has nothing to do with sepp which contains the report that has nothing to do with sepp. Actually, just kill yourself, I'm looking at you xfrockx."

How about you read the damn list of authors. One of the co-authors is the founder of the SEPP. What now?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Singer


Edited by xFrockx (12/16/07 12:24 PM)


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7765321 - 12/16/07 12:26 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Why not debate the points made by Singer rather than his affiliation? The latter is a poor debating tactic.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Redstorm]
    #7765344 - 12/16/07 12:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Why bother with it when its obvious that he is full of shit? Junk science is junk science.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7765353 - 12/16/07 12:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Why bother with it when its obvious that he is full of shit? Junk science is junk science.




So every report on climate change published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal means nothing because they are full of shit? Wonderful.

use something dull if possible


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: d33p]
    #7765376 - 12/16/07 12:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

No, every report that was conducted by people who are quite obviously in the pockets of the oil and tobacco industry is full of shit. Do you think Exxon is going to pay to have people tell them that they are polluting the earth?


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7765454 - 12/16/07 12:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Why bother with it when its obvious that he is full of shit? Junk science is junk science.




If he's so obviously full of shit, you should easily be able to pick apart his research. I'll be waiting.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7765458 - 12/16/07 12:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Peer-reviewed means that other scientists, including those not in the pockets of big oil, get to review the research and challenge their findings. D33p succeeded in producing something of scientific validity that challenges the mainstream scientific consensus on global warming. There are, of course, far more scientific journal articles supporting the case for man-made global warming, but since there is at least one such article which challenges that case, I can now relegate global warming skepticism to a more legitimate status than Intelligent Design.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7765600 - 12/16/07 01:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I don't even have any data to debunk, he provided a link the a blog and I can't find the journal anywhere on EBSCO or Google Scholar. I think he needs to prove it even exists first.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7765608 - 12/16/07 01:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
No, every report that was conducted by people who are quite obviously in the pockets of the oil and tobacco industry is full of shit. Do you think Exxon is going to pay to have people tell them that they are polluting the earth?




So I'm assuming you think that Prof. David H. Douglass, Prof. John R. Christy, Benjamin D. Pearson, Prof. S. Fred Singer, and the International Journal of Climatology of the Royal Meteorological Society are all in the pocket of the oil and tobacco industry. That is quite an accusation. You got anything to back that up?

I'll start and help you out. Fred Singer has connections to conservative groups. Ohhhhh, a conservative profestor. Don't they have laws against stuff like that? I don't suppose you think that every report whose authors include people with ties to left wing groups are also full of shit, do you?


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: d33p]
    #7765626 - 12/16/07 01:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

How about you actually link to the peer reviewed article while I find check out Mr. Singer's financial backers :wink:

To answer your other question, its not an issue of right or left wing, its an issue of an oil company and carbon emissions, it has fucking nothing to do with politics and everything to do with money.  If a "Save the Whales" group sponsored a study that showed that wales were declining and millions needed to be spent to save them, than I would consider that just as much bullshit as this one, and it doesn't matter who the fuck the people vote for.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7765642 - 12/16/07 01:48 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Oh, here you go asshole:

http://www.ecosyn.us/adti/Singer-Nightline.html

"ExxonMobil - Funding the Skeptics
One of the most high profile skeptics in the climate change debate, S. Fred Singer, has recently denied receiving any oil company money, and claimed that his consulting for oil companies was solely "on the subject of oil pricing, some 20 years ago."59 Yet Exxon’s own documents show that in 1998, the company gave a grant of $10,000 to the Science and Environmental Policy Project (SEPP), of which Singer is the founding president, and another $65,000 to the Atlas Economic Research Foundation, which promotes and supports Singer’s work.61 In addition, in the past Singer has acknowledged receiving funding from Exxon.

According to the Wall Street Journal63, ExxonMobil also funds the ultra-conservative and anti-environmentalist Frontiers of Freedom Institute, of which Singer is a staff member. Frontiers of Freedom was cited in the American Petroleum Institute (API) 1998 Global Science Communications Action Plan as a possible organization to help operationalize their anti- Kyoto strategy, to be funded by API and others in the fossil fuel industry.64

Singer has a history of public attacks on the integrity of the IPCC process.65 He has fabricated quotes from the former chair of the IPCC, Dr. Bert Bolin, in an attempt to suggest that Dr. Bolin had changed his mind about climate change.66 Singer was also the mastermind behind a Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow (CFACT) project that took fifty Republican students from the United States, trained in the skeptics’ arguments, to the climate negotiations in Bonn in 2001, to demonstrate in favor of Bush’s abandonment of the Kyoto Protocol.67 CFACT was also listed in the 1998 API plan mentioned above. "

Also:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Science_and_Environmental_Policy_Project#Funding

"... S. Fred Singer, acknowledged during a 1994 appearance on the television program Nightline that he had received funding from Exxon, Shell, Unocal and ARCO. He did not deny receiving funding on a number of occasions from the Rev. Sun Myung Moon." [19]

In 2000 SEPP wrote on their web site:

"SEPP does not solicit financial support from either industry or governmental sources. Income is derived mainly from charitable foundations and private individuals. Some income is derived also from SEPP conference fees and the sale of books and reports to the public. As a non-profit educational and research 501(c) 3 organization, accepting tax-deductible contributions, SEPP is required to file an annual report with the IRS. SEPP operates on a modest budget; its officers and associated scientists do not receive salaries but contribute their services on a pro bono basis." [20] (emphasis added)

ExxonMobil donated $10,000 to SEPP both in 1998 [21] and 2000 [22]. "


Edited by xFrockx (12/16/07 01:58 PM)


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7765650 - 12/16/07 01:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
How about you actually link to the peer reviewed article while I find check out Mr. Singer's financial backers :wink:

To answer your other question, its not an issue of right or left wing, its an issue of an oil company and carbon emissions, it has fucking nothing to do with politics and everything to do with money.  If a "Save the Whales" group sponsored a study that showed that wales were declining and millions needed to be spent to save them, than I would consider that just as much bullshit as this one, and it doesn't matter who the fuck the people vote for.




Congrats, you're as bad at debating as you are at finding shit online.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/117857349/ABSTRACT


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7765653 - 12/16/07 01:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

At what point are you global warming acolytes going to realize that being a Chicken Little is a highly lucrative enterprise? Books sell, movies sell, TV shows sell, research funds are allocated, etc. But only if they spout some alarmist message. It is far greater money than the contribution Exxon gives to any group. Al Gore is lauded for lying. Skeptics are banned. Add that to the usual gang that wants to redistribute wealth (ALL of the UN, apparently) and the argument that it is all about the Benjamins and thus suspect falls rather more squarely on the heads of the alarmist. Alarmism is far more lucrative than research grants from Exxon.

I linked to one group that was denied a voice at Bali. The Weather Channel has embarrassed its founder by declaring skepticism to be the work of the devil. The only group that seems to be working to close the debate is the scare mongers, because they think they have already won the day in the court of public opinion, i.e. a jury of dupes.

There are a lot of articles challenging global warming orthodoxy. Almost every article suppporting it cites models. These models aint all that:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-12/w-nsi121107.php

Quote:

“The usual discussion is whether the climate model forecasts of Earth’s climate 100 years or so into the future are realistic,” said the lead author, Dr. David H. Douglass from the University of Rochester. “Here we have something more fundamental: Can the models accurately explain the climate from the recent past? “It seems that the answer is no.”




Why you fucking guys just believe the alarmists is beyond me. Unless you really don't give a fuck about science unless it supports your wealth redistribution schemes. Remember the effects of the do-gooder DDT killers. Millions died.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7765661 - 12/16/07 01:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Oh, here you go asshole:

http://www.ecosyn.us/adti/Singer-Nightline.html

"ExxonMobil - Funding the Skeptics
One of the most high profile skeptics in the climate change debate, S. Fred Singer, has recently denied receiving any oil company money, and claimed that his consulting for oil companies was solely "on the subject of oil pricing, some 20 years ago."59 Yet Exxon’s own documents show that in 1998, the company gave a grant of $10,000 to the Science and Environmental Policy Project (SEPP), of which Singer is the founding president, and another $65,000 to the Atlas Economic Research Foundation, which promotes and supports Singer’s work.61 In addition, in the past Singer has acknowledged receiving funding from Exxon.

According to the Wall Street Journal63, ExxonMobil also funds the ultra-conservative and anti-environmentalist Frontiers of Freedom Institute, of which Singer is a staff member. Frontiers of Freedom was cited in the American Petroleum Institute (API) 1998 Global Science Communications Action Plan as a possible organization to help operationalize their anti- Kyoto strategy, to be funded by API and others in the fossil fuel industry.64

Singer has a history of public attacks on the integrity of the IPCC process.65 He has fabricated quotes from the former chair of the IPCC, Dr. Bert Bolin, in an attempt to suggest that Dr. Bolin had changed his mind about climate change.66 Singer was also the mastermind behind a Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow (CFACT) project that took fifty Republican students from the United States, trained in the skeptics’ arguments, to the climate negotiations in Bonn in 2001, to demonstrate in favor of Bush’s abandonment of the Kyoto Protocol.67 CFACT was also listed in the 1998 API plan mentioned above. "




Wow, keep wasting your own time with this bullshit. The report, the journal, and the other authors have nothing to do with that.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7765711 - 12/16/07 02:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Oh, here you go asshole:




You need to go to your room.
Quote:



http://www.ecosyn.us/adti/Singer-Nightline.html

"ExxonMobil - Funding the Skeptics
One of the most high profile skeptics in the climate change debate, S. Fred Singer, has recently denied receiving any oil company money, and claimed that his consulting for oil companies was solely "on the subject of oil pricing, some 20 years ago."59 Yet Exxon’s own documents show that in 1998, the company gave a grant of $10,000 to the Science and Environmental Policy Project (SEPP), of which Singer is the founding president, and another $65,000 to the Atlas Economic Research Foundation, which promotes and supports Singer’s work.61 In addition, in the past Singer has acknowledged receiving funding from Exxon.

According to the Wall Street Journal63, ExxonMobil also funds the ultra-conservative and anti-environmentalist Frontiers of Freedom Institute, of which Singer is a staff member. Frontiers of Freedom was cited in the American Petroleum Institute (API) 1998 Global Science Communications Action Plan as a possible organization to help operationalize their anti- Kyoto strategy, to be funded by API and others in the fossil fuel industry.64

Singer has a history of public attacks on the integrity of the IPCC process.65 He has fabricated quotes from the former chair of the IPCC, Dr. Bert Bolin, in an attempt to suggest that Dr. Bolin had changed his mind about climate change.66 Singer was also the mastermind behind a Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow (CFACT) project that took fifty Republican students from the United States, trained in the skeptics’ arguments, to the climate negotiations in Bonn in 2001, to demonstrate in favor of Bush’s abandonment of the Kyoto Protocol.67 CFACT was also listed in the 1998 API plan mentioned above. "




Bush's abandonment? During Clinton's term the Senate unanimously rejected it even in theory. Neither Clinton nor Bush actually presented it for ratification. Bush abandoned it? Meanwhile, who has profited the most from this whole bullshit? Why, none other than the scum Al Gore. When a judge calls you out as a serial liar in a court case and you keep right on with your nonsense you have really got t3h brass ones. Meanwhile all these other scum are managing to scam millions of donations from morons who they have managed to scare with their lies. Because they are so grateful for being made "AWARE." Spare me, suckers.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: d33p]
    #7765752 - 12/16/07 02:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)



Edited by xFrockx (12/16/07 02:17 PM)


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7765779 - 12/16/07 02:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not arguing for Kyoto zappa, I don't think its a good treaty either. What I was bringing into question was Singer's bias. Now that I also found a very reputable source that debunks his actual findings I can hardly justify wasting any more time debating this garbage.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7765794 - 12/16/07 02:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

This is kind of funny, essentially what has happened, is that Singer's SEPP blog put up their big title saying that temperatures haven't changed and whatnot, citing their peer reviewed article that is only about model discrepancies, not only that but those discrepancies are distorted and over exaggerated by Singer and his colleagues. This was a complete waste of my time, I could have told you this once I knew he was funded by Exxon, but nooooo...


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7765863 - 12/16/07 02:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Its been debunked here:

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/12/tropical-troposphere-trends/#more-509

Looks like this one is over.




Was that so hard? Worth getting banned over?


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: d33p]
    #7765869 - 12/16/07 02:48 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

So you tell me to kill myself with a dull instrument because I thought your claims were bullshit... which I have proven that they were... and all of a sudden I took the low road in calling you an asshole. Wow. Just wow.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7765873 - 12/16/07 02:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
This is kind of funny, essentially what has happened, is that Singer's SEPP blog put up their big title saying that temperatures haven't changed and whatnot, citing their peer reviewed article that is only about model discrepancies, not only that but those discrepancies are distorted and over exaggerated by Singer and his colleagues. This was a complete waste of my time, I could have told you this once I knew he was funded by Exxon, but nooooo...




It would help your cause to read the stuff you're talking about and not make inaccurate statements. Just a suggestion.

edit: bolding for the slow people


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Edited by d33p (12/16/07 02:58 PM)


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: d33p]
    #7765885 - 12/16/07 02:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You inferred your entire arguement from a sensational claim from a blog, and then mocked me when I proved you were completely full of shit. I'll take advice from those qualified to give it, thanks though bud.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7765887 - 12/16/07 02:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
So you tell me to kill myself with a dull instrument because I thought your claims were bullshit... which I have proven that they were... and all of a sudden I took the low road in calling you an asshole. Wow. Just wow.




Where did I make a claim? SS7 asked for a report in a peer-reviewed journal that was against the "consensus" and I provided one. But you just completely disregarded the report became of one of the authors affiliations. For that, yeah, I guess you could kill yourself with a dull instrument.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7765899 - 12/16/07 02:56 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
You inferred your entire arguement from a sensational claim from a blog, and then mocked me when I proved you were completely full of shit. I'll take advice from those qualified to give it, thanks though bud.




Is it fun beating a straw man with a stick? looks like it


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: d33p]
    #7765900 - 12/16/07 02:57 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You are missing the point, the link I posed shows that the "peer revied evidence" doesn't point to the conclusion you are using it for AT ALL.

This is the part of the argument where you either admit you are wrong or produce more evidence.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7765922 - 12/16/07 03:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I looked at your climate science link and find it odd that they dispute the data used to call the models utility into question (Douglas and Singer) while it is the exact same data that is used to run the models.
At any rate the conclusion of your link says this:

Quote:

To be sure, this isn't a demonstration that the tropical trends in the model simulations or the data are perfectly matched - there remain multiple issues with moist convection parameterisations, the Madden-Julian oscillation, ENSO, the 'double ITCZ' problem, biases, drifts etc. Nor does it show that RAOBCORE v1.4 is necessarily better than v1.2. But it is a demonstration that there is no clear model-data discrepancy in tropical tropospheric trends once you take the systematic uncertainties in data and models seriously.




Douglas and Singer don't have to prove beyond a statistical certainty that the models are wrong. The modelers have to prove beyond a statistical certainty that their models accurately predict. THAT is what science is and that is quite clearly what they have failed to do, by their own admission.

I keep pointing this out but nobody ever touches it: There is a lot more money in the alarmism industry than there is forthcoming from Exxon. Al Gore has made more money from this stuff than Exxon Mobil ever contributed to any of these guys. A shitload more money, and he's just one guy.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7765957 - 12/16/07 03:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
You are missing the point, the link I posed shows that the "peer revied evidence" doesn't point to the conclusion you are using it for AT ALL.

This is the part of the argument where you either admit you are wrong or produce more evidence.




The models which the report found discrepancies in are used to support the consensus. If models are flawed, then the conclusions drawn from them are as well. Realclimate and you agree apparently. The site you linked to claims that due to bad formulas and not allowing for a reasonable range of uncertainty in models, an incorrect conclusion of model-data discrepancy was formed.

Very few reports in peer reviewed journals support, much less mention, man's contribution to a climate change crisis. That doesn't stop the authors of those reports and numerous others to draw eye catching conclusions about the "consensus" similar to Singer's.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7765971 - 12/16/07 03:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

What model begins as a perfect representation of anything? The climatologists who designed them are constantly working on them to improve them, so in no way are the suggesting that the models are "correct." No, you see, the models have been tested, and until this point they have been shown to be accurate. The point of science is that when someone comes up with evidence contradicting a theory, the theory is either modified or discarded, but things don't start off perfect, nor can we ever expect them to. The article is not saying that the models are perfect, far from it, it is saying that the problems brought up by Douglass et al. are not significant enough to discard the models.

Science is a work in progress, and the link showed that Singer's group made no progress, and could not even successfully invalidate progress that has already been made. I'm not even going to bother touching the fact that they infer that "C02 is not a pollutant" from their limited results.


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: d33p]
    #7765987 - 12/16/07 03:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"Very few reports in peer reviewed journals support, much less mention, man's contribution to a climate change crisis."

Woah, woah there:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=anthropogenic+climate+change&hl=en&lr=&btnG=Search
Results 1 - 10 of about 69,700 for anthropogenic climate change. (0.12 seconds)

Of course models are flawed, so what? The important thing is to what degree they are flawed. No model can be perfect. Show me some evidence that the models are flawed so much that they cannot accurately make a prediction.


Edited by xFrockx (12/16/07 03:18 PM)


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7766057 - 12/16/07 03:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
What model begins as a perfect representation of anything?



None, which is why they are not science
Quote:




The climatologists who designed them are constantly working on them to improve them, so in no way are the suggesting that the models are "correct." No, you see, the models have been tested, and until this point they have been shown to be accurate.



No, they have not. In order to have been shown to be accurate they would have to have passed an at least 95% statistical validity test and more than once, replicability being a crucial element of scientific validity. This clearly hasn't happened. These models are all wonderful and hopefully someday useful but to ascribe the level of confidence in them that the community of suckers has is just wrong. There is zero reason to make deleterious changes to anybody's behavior based on the total speculation that is these models.
Quote:



The point of science is that when someone comes up with evidence contradicting a theory, the theory is either modified or discarded, but things don't start off perfect, nor can we ever expect them to. The article is not saying that the models are perfect, far from it, it is saying that the problems brought up by Douglass et al. are not significant enough to discard the models.




No, I think you have it exactly backwards. I am not advocating discarding the models or denying the potential utility of accurate modelling. What I do deny is that these models have been proven accurate. They have not. By a long shot.
Quote:



Science is a work in progress, and the link showed that Singer's group made no progress, and could not even successfully invalidate progress that has already been made. I'm not even going to bother touching the fact that they infer that "C02 is not a pollutant" from their limited results.




CO2 is a naturally occurring gas in the atmosphere. It is not intrinsically a pollutant. Without that "pollutant" there would be no plants. It is measured in parts per million. Toxic levels of CO2 are grossly higher than these concentration (It's the dosage that makes the poison). The dubious assertion being made is that CO2 causes the temperature to rise. Several historical studies indicate that temperature increase precedes CO2 increase. The causality arrow may well run in the opposite direction, i.e. that increase in temp causes elevated CO2 levels. Or they may be largely unrelated causally and both result from some other activity. It is ludicrous to make large scale economic disaster on such weak evidence. Further, there is plenty of chatter that we couldn't do a fucking thing about it anyway, even if we wanted to, short of cutting human population down drastically and giving up our steaks and dairy (Methane is a much more deleterious gas than CO2)


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Offlined33p
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7766062 - 12/16/07 03:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Very few reports in peer reviewed journals support, much less mention, man's contribution to a climate change crisis."

Woah, woah there:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=anthropogenic+climate+change&hl=en&lr=&btnG=Search
Results 1 - 10 of about 69,700 for anthropogenic climate change. (0.12 seconds)

Of course models are flawed, so what? The important thing is to what degree they are flawed. No model can be perfect. Show me some evidence that the models are flawed so much that they cannot accurately make a prediction.




1. bold
2. Did you just seriously offer a google search as evidence?
3. Show me some evidence that the models are not flawed such that they can accurately make a prediction. Realclimate acknowledges that one must allow for a considerable degree of uncertainty in the model. One should not be quick to judge the cause of particular trends within systems consisting of many variables in flux.

I'm not convinced by either side. Most importantly, flawed models should not be used to support important policy decisions.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


Edited by d33p (12/16/07 04:07 PM)


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7766651 - 12/16/07 06:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

I keep pointing this out but nobody ever touches it:  There is a lot more money in the alarmism industry than there is forthcoming from Exxon.  Al Gore has made more money from this stuff than Exxon Mobil ever contributed to any of these guys.  A shitload more money, and he's just one guy.




Al Gore, in accepting the Nobel Peace Prize yesterday said

"Ignoring Climate Crisis Akin to Appeasing Hitler" :crazy2:


You know the moonbats have lost the argument when they reference Hitler.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7766660 - 12/16/07 06:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
At what point are you global warming acolytes going to realize that being a Chicken Little is a highly lucrative enterprise?  Books sell, movies sell, TV shows sell, research funds are allocated, etc.  But only if they spout some alarmist message.  It is far greater money than the contribution Exxon gives to any group.  Al Gore is lauded for lying.  Skeptics are banned.  Add that to the usual gang that wants to redistribute wealth (ALL of the UN, apparently) and the argument that it is all about the Benjamins and thus suspect falls rather more squarely on the heads of the alarmist.  Alarmism is far more lucrative than research grants from Exxon.



Right.  So every national and international body of science is part of a vast conspiracy to scare the shit out of the people.  :rolleyes:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7768227 - 12/17/07 02:15 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> Right. So every national and international body of science is part of a vast conspiracy to scare the shit out of the people. :rolleyes:

Yes, in a sense.  Not some "vast conspiracy" as you put it, but they are all caught up in the hysteria.  Science is no longer in control of the science of weather; it has been hijacked by politics and special interest groups.  When scientists with dissenting research are not allowed to attend symposiums on the subject, you know there is a problem.  It actually has a lot of parallels to science in the war on drugs.  Look at how much bogus research goes on to "prove" that drugs are bad.  When politics gets her dirty hands on science, the science becomes political rather than impartial, and loses almost all validity.  Rather than looking at research supporting global warming from a "is it true or not" standpoint, look at it from a "who benefits" standpoint.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7768646 - 12/17/07 09:25 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rather than looking at research supporting global warming from a "is it true or not" standpoint, look at it from a "who benefits" standpoint.



Um...I believe that's what a lot of the people on my side of the argument are doing. I'm the one trying to give you guys the benefit of the doubt in thinking that some scientists on your side aren't just in the pocket of big oil.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7768763 - 12/17/07 10:07 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

[quoet]I'm the one trying to give you guys the benefit of the doubt in thinking that some scientists on your side aren't just in the pocket of big oil.




Ignore sides, and ignore who is correct or not. Instead, figure out who (non-scientists) benefits from scientists saying global warming is going to kill us all? Dig deep, ignoring everything else, and you will see what I mean.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7768768 - 12/17/07 10:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Instead, figure out who (non-scientists) benefits from scientists saying global warming is going to kill us all? Dig deep, ignoring everything else, and you will see what I mean.



Well, if something is done about it, then the benefactors would be all of us.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7769570 - 12/17/07 01:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i know if cars had increased fuel mileage then the city where i live wouldn't be so smoggy. compared to just 10 years ago when the mountains were always in view no matter how long it had been since a storm came through the valley. now even after just a day or two the mountains are whited out with a haze. we have air quality warnings several times a year and there are less than 500,000 in this valley more than 100 miles long. its very sad to see this happening where i live. however if smart measures are put into place i am sure that this smog would be reduced where i live thus increasing my quality of life and the quality of life of the thousands of other people who live in my area.

yup the benefactors of going green sure are greedy...


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7769831 - 12/17/07 02:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Well, if something is done about it, then the benefactors would be all of us

So now the socialist scheme is revealed! All of us benefiting? What kind of collectivist crap is that?

See, the market will sort out the winners and losers according to it's perfect way, through its invisible hand.

If those countries that get submerged by the sea dont want to dissapear, they wouldn't of lived there. WHy should AMericans pay taxes to help another country? Its socialism!

I guess you must want to live in North Korea. Cuz thats the alternative. And you dont get to have your little discussion boards there either.

If the world gets too hot, an entrepreneur will invent an air-conditioned country! Unless he gets taxed to death by the socialists first. Anyone will be free to pay to live inside the private, cool country. If they cant afford it, its their own fault. They will be outside to take their medicine. Theres no free lunch. As long as the government doesn't butt in, the market will determine everyones experience according to their worth. The strong and the good will survive, and prosper. If your in trouble, you deserve to be. The government cant fix everyones problems and everything to all people. People shouldn't be dependent on government.

This handsome Hollywood millionnaire making fun of people so poor they sometimes went to bed hungry seemed to me monstrous. I remember his wealthy audience of suburbanites going wild with laughter and applause.


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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: carbonhoots]
    #7769898 - 12/17/07 02:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i wonder who would benefit from the white house manipulating global warming science and keeping the epa from getting involved? perhaps haliburton. now isn't there some high ranking official that use to be CEO of haliburton? maybe i'm just crazy...

http://oversight.house.gov/story.asp?id=1653


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7770078 - 12/17/07 03:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> Well, if something is done about it, then the benefactors would be all of us.

Nevermind. You refuse to drop right or wrong, good or bad, thus you refuse to see what I am trying to point out.

> i wonder who would benefit from the white house manipulating global warming science and keeping the epa from getting involved?

Same challenge to you. Look at it as if any influence by either side is bad. Give up the right and wrong; just look at the people pushing the issue one way or the other that shouldn't be. Trace it back and see who profits. One side is easy, as you pointed out above with Haliburton. Follow the other trail and see if you can find where it leads.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7770102 - 12/17/07 03:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Well, if something is done about it, then the benefactors would be all of us.

Nevermind. You refuse to drop right or wrong, good or bad, thus you refuse to see what I am trying to point out.



It might help if you get more specific. I'm honestly curious as to what you're getting at. "Refusal" has nothing to do with it.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7770519 - 12/17/07 05:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i already traced back who would be helped by reducing green house gas emissions. *gasp* it is me! yay for going green.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7770678 - 12/17/07 05:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
Instead, figure out who (non-scientists) benefits from scientists saying global warming is going to kill us all? Dig deep, ignoring everything else, and you will see what I mean.



Well, if something is done about it, then the benefactors would be all of us.




Every single global warming alarm from a scientist comes with boatloads of caveats and are products of rather imperfect modeling techniques. Every single one has some form of a "this may be true" attached. That is not science. In the sciences that rely on statistical analysis, as opposed to direct experiments, results are rejected as inconclusive out of hand if they do not attain a statistical certainty of at least 95%. Not one scientist I have read has made the assertion that these models rise to that. So and thus, none of the global warming alarms I have seen rises to a reasonable and customary level of scientific certitude. Plugging data into a computer and running simulations is NOT science, especially when the models don't seem to do real well when tested against actual events. This was stated by the climate scientist guys previously cited by an alarmist poster as debunking Douglas and Singer. They couldn't say they were right.
Further, we have the recent revelations from GISS and NASA that they had to restate their temperature data to reflect the fact that the 1930s were in fact the warmest decade on record. This was the famously censored Dr. Harper's data which had to be restated. That didn't look good.
1. I challenge the notion that there even is any warming trend. It is most certainly not established, the data is inconclusive.

The alleged impact of CO2 concentration as a factor in global temperature is not at all determined. Historically, CO2 concentration increases after temperature increases. This could be due to a whole host of factors, not least of which might be an overall increase in biological and chemical activity due solely to the increase in temperature. Elementary chemistry states that reaction rates increase as temperature does. Further, CO2 concentration is miniscule, on the order of 380 parts per million. That is 0.038%. There is so little of this stuff in the atmosphere that to ascribe such incredible powers
to a compound with such little relative mass to the atmosphere as a whole strikes me as prima facie absurd. According to realclimate
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=142

for water plus clouds 80-90% of the present day greenhouse effect.

They go on to make other arguments that water vapor is irrelevant because it is not "forcing", only other gases are "forcing". Gases, of course, made by evil men. But this, too, is prima facie absurd. If that were the case, the spiral of temp rise, more WV, more temp more WV would go up and up and up until we were Venus. CO2 concentrations have been higher than this in the past. The planet is not 500 degrees.
2. I challenge the notion that CO2 concentration has any causative effect on rising temperatures. This has not been shown just speculated, what I call a wild ass guess (WAG).

Moving on, and not conceding an inch, we come to the notion that anything can be done about this. Face it, there is the irrefutable fact that an increased percentage of the biomass is human. Humans are energy pigs. We live well, incredibly, unprecedentedly well. There is a reason why hideous lives are termed "brutish". That is how the brutes (animals) live, under a constant threat of starvation and predation. There is also the irrefutable fact that by far the greatest element of what makes our lives so easy is our harnessing of energy that does not come from food. Decreasing our overall energy consumption will lead, in a direct and uninterrupted line, to a decrease in our (human) quality of life. Currently there is a proposal that some of us (high energy consumers) should pay others (low energy consumers) to continue to consume less energy. This will not occur. Once given the means to purchase energy, or the products resulting from energy use, they will do so. There will be NO net decrease in energy consumption, just a flattening of energy consumption across the whole population. A redistribution of wealth, that is all, with the concomitant effect that populations with negative growth pressure will be released from that pressure and thus expand. That means even more people. Now there's a greenhouse effect for you. We'll all be hothouse flowers , not just some of us. This is the goal of the social/economic justice people.
3. Selling carbon credits, in whatever form, will do absolutely nothing to decrease overall energy use.

Alternative sources of energy are absolutely necessary, but the commonly mentioned ones are bandaids at best. Hydro, geo, tidal, wind all have drawbacks and cannot come anywhere near replacing the usage. Fission, similarly, has immense drawbacks, which cannot be ignored. Fusion is truly the only future for energy sources, the promise of which has been on an engineering hold for decades.
4. Fusion is the only answer.

And then we come to the last part, which is that the supposedly independent, altruistic nature of alarmism is a sham. There is an orthodoxy in any scientific cause du jour that abhors the heretic. This is what is happening now. They see money to be made and research to be funded if your proposal will just meet the parameters of whatever politically motivated cassus belli is popular. Exxon sending 70 thousand cannot compete with the arch buffoon's profit of millions for pure corrupting value. Nor can you make a case that those espousing doubt are reactionary tools when the orthodoxy is for alarmism. Rachel Carson caused millions of unnecessary deaths and untold suffering. But the hippies loved her. So excuse the fuck out of me if I think this is yet another in a long line of utter bullshit. I've seen it before.
5. "Popular science" is not science. Those that can understand it don't fall for it and those that can't, look for an angle. I've seen this same kind of thing for over thirty years and it is almost always complete bullshit.


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