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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7768763 - 12/17/07 10:07 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

[quoet]I'm the one trying to give you guys the benefit of the doubt in thinking that some scientists on your side aren't just in the pocket of big oil.




Ignore sides, and ignore who is correct or not. Instead, figure out who (non-scientists) benefits from scientists saying global warming is going to kill us all? Dig deep, ignoring everything else, and you will see what I mean.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7768768 - 12/17/07 10:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Instead, figure out who (non-scientists) benefits from scientists saying global warming is going to kill us all? Dig deep, ignoring everything else, and you will see what I mean.



Well, if something is done about it, then the benefactors would be all of us.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7769570 - 12/17/07 01:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i know if cars had increased fuel mileage then the city where i live wouldn't be so smoggy. compared to just 10 years ago when the mountains were always in view no matter how long it had been since a storm came through the valley. now even after just a day or two the mountains are whited out with a haze. we have air quality warnings several times a year and there are less than 500,000 in this valley more than 100 miles long. its very sad to see this happening where i live. however if smart measures are put into place i am sure that this smog would be reduced where i live thus increasing my quality of life and the quality of life of the thousands of other people who live in my area.

yup the benefactors of going green sure are greedy...


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"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7769831 - 12/17/07 02:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Well, if something is done about it, then the benefactors would be all of us

So now the socialist scheme is revealed! All of us benefiting? What kind of collectivist crap is that?

See, the market will sort out the winners and losers according to it's perfect way, through its invisible hand.

If those countries that get submerged by the sea dont want to dissapear, they wouldn't of lived there. WHy should AMericans pay taxes to help another country? Its socialism!

I guess you must want to live in North Korea. Cuz thats the alternative. And you dont get to have your little discussion boards there either.

If the world gets too hot, an entrepreneur will invent an air-conditioned country! Unless he gets taxed to death by the socialists first. Anyone will be free to pay to live inside the private, cool country. If they cant afford it, its their own fault. They will be outside to take their medicine. Theres no free lunch. As long as the government doesn't butt in, the market will determine everyones experience according to their worth. The strong and the good will survive, and prosper. If your in trouble, you deserve to be. The government cant fix everyones problems and everything to all people. People shouldn't be dependent on government.

This handsome Hollywood millionnaire making fun of people so poor they sometimes went to bed hungry seemed to me monstrous. I remember his wealthy audience of suburbanites going wild with laughter and applause.


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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Registered: 10/20/06
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Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: carbonhoots]
    #7769898 - 12/17/07 02:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i wonder who would benefit from the white house manipulating global warming science and keeping the epa from getting involved? perhaps haliburton. now isn't there some high ranking official that use to be CEO of haliburton? maybe i'm just crazy...

http://oversight.house.gov/story.asp?id=1653


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7770078 - 12/17/07 03:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> Well, if something is done about it, then the benefactors would be all of us.

Nevermind. You refuse to drop right or wrong, good or bad, thus you refuse to see what I am trying to point out.

> i wonder who would benefit from the white house manipulating global warming science and keeping the epa from getting involved?

Same challenge to you. Look at it as if any influence by either side is bad. Give up the right and wrong; just look at the people pushing the issue one way or the other that shouldn't be. Trace it back and see who profits. One side is easy, as you pointed out above with Haliburton. Follow the other trail and see if you can find where it leads.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7770102 - 12/17/07 03:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Well, if something is done about it, then the benefactors would be all of us.

Nevermind. You refuse to drop right or wrong, good or bad, thus you refuse to see what I am trying to point out.



It might help if you get more specific. I'm honestly curious as to what you're getting at. "Refusal" has nothing to do with it.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7770519 - 12/17/07 05:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i already traced back who would be helped by reducing green house gas emissions. *gasp* it is me! yay for going green.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7770678 - 12/17/07 05:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
Instead, figure out who (non-scientists) benefits from scientists saying global warming is going to kill us all? Dig deep, ignoring everything else, and you will see what I mean.



Well, if something is done about it, then the benefactors would be all of us.




Every single global warming alarm from a scientist comes with boatloads of caveats and are products of rather imperfect modeling techniques. Every single one has some form of a "this may be true" attached. That is not science. In the sciences that rely on statistical analysis, as opposed to direct experiments, results are rejected as inconclusive out of hand if they do not attain a statistical certainty of at least 95%. Not one scientist I have read has made the assertion that these models rise to that. So and thus, none of the global warming alarms I have seen rises to a reasonable and customary level of scientific certitude. Plugging data into a computer and running simulations is NOT science, especially when the models don't seem to do real well when tested against actual events. This was stated by the climate scientist guys previously cited by an alarmist poster as debunking Douglas and Singer. They couldn't say they were right.
Further, we have the recent revelations from GISS and NASA that they had to restate their temperature data to reflect the fact that the 1930s were in fact the warmest decade on record. This was the famously censored Dr. Harper's data which had to be restated. That didn't look good.
1. I challenge the notion that there even is any warming trend. It is most certainly not established, the data is inconclusive.

The alleged impact of CO2 concentration as a factor in global temperature is not at all determined. Historically, CO2 concentration increases after temperature increases. This could be due to a whole host of factors, not least of which might be an overall increase in biological and chemical activity due solely to the increase in temperature. Elementary chemistry states that reaction rates increase as temperature does. Further, CO2 concentration is miniscule, on the order of 380 parts per million. That is 0.038%. There is so little of this stuff in the atmosphere that to ascribe such incredible powers
to a compound with such little relative mass to the atmosphere as a whole strikes me as prima facie absurd. According to realclimate
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=142

for water plus clouds 80-90% of the present day greenhouse effect.

They go on to make other arguments that water vapor is irrelevant because it is not "forcing", only other gases are "forcing". Gases, of course, made by evil men. But this, too, is prima facie absurd. If that were the case, the spiral of temp rise, more WV, more temp more WV would go up and up and up until we were Venus. CO2 concentrations have been higher than this in the past. The planet is not 500 degrees.
2. I challenge the notion that CO2 concentration has any causative effect on rising temperatures. This has not been shown just speculated, what I call a wild ass guess (WAG).

Moving on, and not conceding an inch, we come to the notion that anything can be done about this. Face it, there is the irrefutable fact that an increased percentage of the biomass is human. Humans are energy pigs. We live well, incredibly, unprecedentedly well. There is a reason why hideous lives are termed "brutish". That is how the brutes (animals) live, under a constant threat of starvation and predation. There is also the irrefutable fact that by far the greatest element of what makes our lives so easy is our harnessing of energy that does not come from food. Decreasing our overall energy consumption will lead, in a direct and uninterrupted line, to a decrease in our (human) quality of life. Currently there is a proposal that some of us (high energy consumers) should pay others (low energy consumers) to continue to consume less energy. This will not occur. Once given the means to purchase energy, or the products resulting from energy use, they will do so. There will be NO net decrease in energy consumption, just a flattening of energy consumption across the whole population. A redistribution of wealth, that is all, with the concomitant effect that populations with negative growth pressure will be released from that pressure and thus expand. That means even more people. Now there's a greenhouse effect for you. We'll all be hothouse flowers , not just some of us. This is the goal of the social/economic justice people.
3. Selling carbon credits, in whatever form, will do absolutely nothing to decrease overall energy use.

Alternative sources of energy are absolutely necessary, but the commonly mentioned ones are bandaids at best. Hydro, geo, tidal, wind all have drawbacks and cannot come anywhere near replacing the usage. Fission, similarly, has immense drawbacks, which cannot be ignored. Fusion is truly the only future for energy sources, the promise of which has been on an engineering hold for decades.
4. Fusion is the only answer.

And then we come to the last part, which is that the supposedly independent, altruistic nature of alarmism is a sham. There is an orthodoxy in any scientific cause du jour that abhors the heretic. This is what is happening now. They see money to be made and research to be funded if your proposal will just meet the parameters of whatever politically motivated cassus belli is popular. Exxon sending 70 thousand cannot compete with the arch buffoon's profit of millions for pure corrupting value. Nor can you make a case that those espousing doubt are reactionary tools when the orthodoxy is for alarmism. Rachel Carson caused millions of unnecessary deaths and untold suffering. But the hippies loved her. So excuse the fuck out of me if I think this is yet another in a long line of utter bullshit. I've seen it before.
5. "Popular science" is not science. Those that can understand it don't fall for it and those that can't, look for an angle. I've seen this same kind of thing for over thirty years and it is almost always complete bullshit.


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