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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Posts: 23,480
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7757995 - 12/14/07 11:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant.

From wiki:

Quote:

Pollution is the introduction of pollutants (whether chemical substances, or energy such as noise, heat, or light) into the environment to such a point that its effects become harmful to human health




From webster (pollute):

Quote:

to contaminate (an environment) especially with man-made waste




However, I wasn't speaking towards CO2, but rather the waste that mankind produces in general.


Edit: Just re-read this... my point with the definitions is to show that CO2 being pollution or not is relative to the "situation". This wasn't very clear in my original post. For example, on Apollo 13, after the CO2 scrubbers were spent, the gas was certainly a pollutant.


Edited by Seuss (12/14/07 12:03 PM)


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Registered: 10/20/06
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7758155 - 12/14/07 12:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

suess i suggest you read the entire report, it details how increased fuel economy in cars has a direct result on market share. this explains why gm and ford cant sell cars while honda, toyota, nissan etc can. you asked for a study proving my claim and i gave it to you. denying it further is your problem.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7758170 - 12/14/07 12:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The idea that CO2 drives climate change is ridiculous. If you want to know what drives the temperature of the earth look up in the sky on a sunny day. Don't look up when it's raining, though, you might drown.




http://solar-center.stanford.edu/sun-on-earth/FAQ2.html


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7758455 - 12/14/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

That was an interesting article. Did you notice in the graph that temperature rise preceded CO2 increases? Also, the latest info in that was from 2001. Further, they linked to something that said this:
Quote:

They determined that a dimmer Sun reduced the model's westerly winds, cooling the continents during wintertime. Shindell's model shows large regional climate changes, unlike other climate models that show relatively small temperature changes on an overall global scale. Other models did not assess regional changes.




So a dimmer sun makes it colder but a hotter sun doesn't do anything? This was before NASA had to restate temp data that showed the 1930s to be the hottest decade. Here, have a taste of this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/19/nbook119.xml

Quote:

Christopher Booker's notebook

By Christopher Booker, Sunday Telegraph
Last Updated: 4:00am BST 20/08/2007

Inconveniently, the 1930s were the hottest decade

Recent days have brought to light four more highly "inconvenient truths" for our global warming alarmists. The first caused acute embarrassment to Nasa's Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS), exposing a serious flaw in its record of US surface temperatures since 1880. The error was so glaring that, on August 7, GISS had to post revised figures which show, instead of temperatures reaching their highest level in the past decade, that the hottest year of the 20th century was not 1998 but 1934. Of the 10 warmest years since 1880, it turns out that four were in the 1930s and only three in the past decade.

The significance of this is that James Hansen, the head of GISS, has been Al Gore's closest scientific ally for nearly 20 years in promoting the global warming scare. The revised figures relate only to temperatures in North America but the fact that the pre-eminent scientific champion of the orthodoxy has been promoting erroneous data has considerable implications.




The previously mentioned Shindell, the main source for your global warming conjecture, wrote his opinion in 2001 (or earlier) based on faulty data. Shindell is this guy:

Quote:

Dr. Drew Shindell is an ozone specialist and climatologist at the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies . His research is concerned with global climate change, climate variability, and atmospheric chemistry. He uses climate models to investigate chemical changes such as the depletion of the ozone layer, climate changes such as global warming, and the connections between these two.




He was a climate researcher at the institute that had to restate its data to reflect a cooler planet AFTER he threw his opinion into that paper. Now, doesn't that seem to suck? I mean that in a sciencey way, not a political way.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7758503 - 12/14/07 01:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I'd be interested if any global warming deniers can produce a single article from a peer-reviewed scientific journal that supports their claims. There's certainly an abundance of such articles supporting the contrary position.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Posts: 81,741
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7758530 - 12/14/07 01:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I'd be interested if any global warming deniers can produce a single article from a peer-reviewed scientific journal that supports their claims. There's certainly an abundance of such articles supporting the contrary position.




Every time a study fails to find a change it bolsters, but cannot prove, a denial of what by and large is proving to be ersatz science. These, of course, would not be published because they didn't show anything either way.
Computer models and busted data are not exactly scientific.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7758561 - 12/14/07 02:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"Just re-read this... my point with the definitions is to show that CO2 being pollution or not is relative to the "situation". This wasn't very clear in my original post. For example, on Apollo 13, after the CO2 scrubbers were spent, the gas was certainly a pollutant."

The problem, of course, is that the earths natural "carbon scrubbers" are not sufficient to remove the excess C02 we are creating, which, even in what may seem like minuscule concentrations, causes our atmosphere to retain more heat, which only further enhances the original problem.

Now, this doesn't necessarily mean apocalypse, but even small changes in temperature on a global scale, maybe 1 or 2 degrees, could greatly affect growing seasons and ecosystems. Furthermore, higher CO2 concentrations can lead to increased vegetation, which may provide some beneficial effect, as long as it does not go to far and imbalance an ecosystem. Another problem is that we are loosing our coral reefs because of these seemingly minute changes. I may be sentimental, but when I visited the great barrier reef as a kid I hoped that I would be able to go back.


Edited by xFrockx (12/14/07 02:10 PM)


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: xFrockx]
    #7758596 - 12/14/07 02:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> I'd be interested if any global warming deniers can produce a single article from a peer-reviewed scientific journal

There are plenty of papers out there that discuss dynamic climate change without stooping to the fear mongering used by the global warming crowd. Unfortunately, going against global warming is professional suicide; this is well documented.

Here is what one kooky meteorologist had to say recently (Nov 2007):
Quote:

[Global warming] is the greatest scam in history. I am amazed, appalled and highly offended by it. Global Warming; It is a SCAM. Some dastardly scientists with environmental and political motives manipulated long term scientific data to create in allusion of rapid global warming. Other scientists of the same environmental wacko type jumped into the circle to support and broaden the “research” to further enhance the totally slanted, bogus global warming claims. Their friends in government steered huge research grants their way to keep the movement going. Soon they claimed to be a consensus.

Environmental extremists, notable politicians among them, then teamed up with movie, media and other liberal, environmentalist journalists to create this wild “scientific” scenario of the civilization threatening environmental consequences from Global Warming unless we adhere to their radical agenda. Now their ridiculous manipulated science has been accepted as fact and become a cornerstone issue for CNN, CBS, NBC, the Democratic Political Party, the Governor of California, school teachers and, in many cases, well informed but very gullible environmental conscientious citizens. Only one reporter at ABC has been allowed to counter the Global Warming frenzy with one 15 minutes documentary segment.

I do not oppose environmentalism. I do not oppose the political positions of either party. However, Global Warming, ie Climate Change, is not about environmentalism or politics. It is not a religion. It is not something you “believe in.” It is science; the science of meteorology. This is my field of life-long expertise. And I am telling you Global Warming is a non-event, a manufactured crisis and a total scam. I say this knowing you probably won’t believe a me, a mere TV weatherman, challenging a Nobel Prize, Academy Award and Emmy Award winning former Vice President of United States. So be it.

I have read dozens of scientific papers. I have talked with numerous scientists. I have studied. I have thought about it. I know I am correct. There is no run away climate change. The impact of humans on climate is not catastrophic. Our planet is not in peril. I am incensed by the incredible media glamour, the politically correct silliness and rude dismissal of counter arguments by the high priest of Global Warming.

In time, a decade or two, the outrageous scam will be obvious. As the temperature rises, polar ice cap melting, coastal flooding and super storm pattern all fail to occur as predicted everyone will come to realize we have been duped. The sky is not falling. And, natural cycles and drifts in climate are as much if not more responsible for any climate changes underway. I strongly believe that the next twenty years are equally as likely to see a cooling trend as they are to see a warming trend.




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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7758623 - 12/14/07 02:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Every time a study fails to find a change it bolsters, but cannot prove, a denial of what by and large is proving to be ersatz science.  These, of course, would not be published because they didn't show anything either way.
  Computer models and busted data are not exactly scientific.



If you deny the change in climate itself, then you're not only behind science, but you're even behind a bunch of farmers in your understanding.  ALL the data shows the climate is changing.  There are some scientists who question the extent to which human activity is contributing to global warming, but it seems they either can't or won't get an article published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, as evidenced by this article.

Also thought you might find this tidbit interesting:
Quote:

With the release of the revised statement by the American Association of Petroleum Geologists, no scientific bodies of national or international standing are known to reject the basic findings of human influence on recent climate.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change

Damn those socialist scientists!  :cuss:


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7758630 - 12/14/07 02:26 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
    #7758635 - 12/14/07 02:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> I'd be interested if any global warming deniers can produce a single article from a peer-reviewed scientific journal

There are plenty of papers out there that discuss dynamic climate change without stooping to the fear mongering used by the global warming crowd. Unfortunately, going against global warming is professional suicide; this is well documented.

Here is what one kooky meteorologist had to say recently (Nov 2007):
Quote:

[Global warming] is the greatest scam in history. I am amazed, appalled and highly offended by it. Global Warming; It is a SCAM. Some dastardly scientists with environmental and political motives manipulated long term scientific data to create in allusion of rapid global warming. Other scientists of the same environmental wacko type jumped into the circle to support and broaden the “research” to further enhance the totally slanted, bogus global warming claims. Their friends in government steered huge research grants their way to keep the movement going. Soon they claimed to be a consensus.

Environmental extremists, notable politicians among them, then teamed up with movie, media and other liberal, environmentalist journalists to create this wild “scientific” scenario of the civilization threatening environmental consequences from Global Warming unless we adhere to their radical agenda. Now their ridiculous manipulated science has been accepted as fact and become a cornerstone issue for CNN, CBS, NBC, the Democratic Political Party, the Governor of California, school teachers and, in many cases, well informed but very gullible environmental conscientious citizens. Only one reporter at ABC has been allowed to counter the Global Warming frenzy with one 15 minutes documentary segment.

I do not oppose environmentalism. I do not oppose the political positions of either party. However, Global Warming, ie Climate Change, is not about environmentalism or politics. It is not a religion. It is not something you “believe in.” It is science; the science of meteorology. This is my field of life-long expertise. And I am telling you Global Warming is a non-event, a manufactured crisis and a total scam. I say this knowing you probably won’t believe a me, a mere TV weatherman, challenging a Nobel Prize, Academy Award and Emmy Award winning former Vice President of United States. So be it.

I have read dozens of scientific papers. I have talked with numerous scientists. I have studied. I have thought about it. I know I am correct. There is no run away climate change. The impact of humans on climate is not catastrophic. Our planet is not in peril. I am incensed by the incredible media glamour, the politically correct silliness and rude dismissal of counter arguments by the high priest of Global Warming.

In time, a decade or two, the outrageous scam will be obvious. As the temperature rises, polar ice cap melting, coastal flooding and super storm pattern all fail to occur as predicted everyone will come to realize we have been duped. The sky is not falling. And, natural cycles and drifts in climate are as much if not more responsible for any climate changes underway. I strongly believe that the next twenty years are equally as likely to see a cooling trend as they are to see a warming trend.






Was this statement found in a peer-reviewed scientific journal? I constantly hear people complaining that the 9/11 truth movement can't pass this litmus test, so why shouldn't I expect global warming skeptics to do the same? If they want to be taken more seriously than the Scholars for 9/11 Truth, they need to put up or shut up.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7758642 - 12/14/07 02:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The climate changes every hour. There is zero evidence of any warming trend beyond statistically random fluctuations. Computer models are not data and the data don't support the models.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7758661 - 12/14/07 02:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

take another look at that graph the CO2 levels were increasing steadily the entire time which corresponded well with increased temperatures. perhaps you should learn to read graphs zappa.

so the 1930's were warmer than the last decade. big whoop. the argument is that from the beginning of the industrial revolution that CO2 has been increasing along with global warming. not to mention that was an error that pertains only to north America not global temperatures and still 3 of the warmest years in north American history happened in the last decade. so i don't see how your argument debunks global warming...

http://solar-center.stanford.edu/sun-on-earth/GL264W01.pdf

another study by a university, they must be wrong right zappa? after all, they disagree with you and your claims which are based upon all those years you spent studying climate right? oh wait...
http://cos.gmu.edu/research/news/sciglobal


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


Edited by SlashOZ (12/14/07 02:55 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7758679 - 12/14/07 02:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The climate changes every hour.



No, that would be weather.  Apparently grade school has failed you.

Quote:

There is zero evidence of any warming trend beyond statistically random fluctuations.  Computer models are not data and the data don't support the models.



:lol: Ignorance like this must take a whole lot of effort.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7758838 - 12/14/07 03:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
take another look at that graph the CO2 levels were increasing steadily the entire time which corresponded well with increased temperatures. perhaps you should learn to read graphs zappa.




Like I said but without, perhaps, any emphasis, the temperature rise PRECEDES the rise in CO2 concentration. There and historically. You need a remedial course in graph reading and English comprehension.
Quote:



so the 1930's were warmer than the last decade. big whoop. the argument is that from the beginning of the industrial revolution that CO2 has been increasing along with global warming. not to mention that was an error that pertains only to north America not global temperatures and still 3 of the warmest years in north American history happened in the last decade. so i don't see how your argument debunks global warming...




The point was is that the data were wrong. Any conclusions or modeling done from that data are garbage.
Quote:



http://solar-center.stanford.edu/sun-on-earth/GL264W01.pdf




1998. Are you fucking kidding?
Quote:



another study by a university, they must be wrong right zappa? after all, they disagree with you and your claims which are based upon all those years you spent studying climate right? oh wait...
http://cos.gmu.edu/research/news/sciglobal



One thing about a social scientist is that they can't tell was is science and what is game-playing. From that link:
Quote:

The study put current climate models to the test and for the first time ranked these complex modeling systems in terms of accuracy. Results show that when models currently working to predict the Earth's climate are ranked in this way, the more reliable models tend to project higher estimates of global warming for the next century.




GIGO.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
    #7758865 - 12/14/07 03:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The climate changes every hour.



No, that would be weather.  Apparently grade school has failed you.

Quote:

There is zero evidence of any warming trend beyond statistically random fluctuations.  Computer models are not data and the data don't support the models.



:lol: Ignorance like this must take a whole lot of effort.




Ignorance??

Its amazing that the Global Warming idiots think that normal and ongoing climate change is materially being made harmful by human activities and that humans can alter the climate back to someone’s idea of an ideal status.....:rolleyes:


--------------------
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We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7758892 - 12/14/07 03:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Chew on this one zappa, it seems C02 can really pollute:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071210103939.htm

ScienceDaily (Dec. 12, 2007) — Carbon dioxide increasing in the atmosphere may affect the microbial life in the sea, which could have an impact on a major food source, warned Dr Ian Joint at a Science Media Centre press briefing December 10.

Dr Joint is sequencing the DNA of different ocean bacteria to find out how they will respond to an increase in carbon dioxide. "So far from one experiment we have sequenced 300 million bases of DNA, about one tenth the size of the human genome. We are analyzing this 'ocean genome' to see if changes might affect the productivity of the sea."

Worldwide, fish from the sea provide nearly a fifth of the animal protein eaten by man. If microscopic plants that fish eat are affected by carbon dioxide, this may deplete a major food source.

"Bacteria still control the world" said Dr Joint from Plymouth Marine Laboratory. "They ensure that the planet is fertile and that toxic materials do not accumulate." The carbon dioxide produced by humans is turning the oceans into weak acids. This century, the seas will be more acidic than they have been for 20 million years.

"There are many millions of different bacteria in the ocean. They control the cycling of oxygen, carbon, nitrogen and sulphur; microbes in the sea generate half of the oxygen produced globally every year." So the atmosphere could also be affected by ocean acidification. "Bacteria made the earth suitable for animals by producing oxygen nearly 2 billion years ago. We want to find out if human activities will have a major impact on microbial life in the seas and if this is likely to be a problem for mankind in the future."


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
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Registered: 10/04/05
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! *DELETED* [Re: Silversoul]
    #7758893 - 12/14/07 03:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by EntheogenicPeace

Reason for deletion: ---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/12/21 05:00 PM)


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7758920 - 12/14/07 03:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

you are still reading the graph wrongly...take a much closer look and you'll see where you went wrong, again.

so in the year 1998 all science was wrong or something? please explain.

the 1930's temps have nothing to do with it sense that study was about global(not north american) temps and solar output. i've given you studies showing that solar output isn't causing global warming and the best you can refute that with is that the 1930's were warmer than we thought in north america. which you haven't been able to prove the impact on any models, aside from your own assumptions about the issue.

oh and pointing out the word model also disproves global warming, way to go win this debate. maybe next time i'll point out every time you use the letter 'R' since that is about how applicable most of your arguements are to the debate.

i'm done arguing with you zappa, its like talking to a brick wall but the responses aren't as intelligent.

another good read for anyone who still doubts scientists but believes cooperations and the bush administration (lol)
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5702/1686

more reason to be concerned...
http://www.wfu.edu/news/release/2007.12.13.c.php


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


Edited by SlashOZ (12/14/07 03:59 PM)


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InvisibleGrizz
Gnubobo is mypoppet!


Registered: 02/26/04
Posts: 18,554
Loc: Pulling Bobo's strings.
Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7758991 - 12/14/07 04:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

There is no global warming
It is not caused by human activity
There is nothing to be done about it
It is a scam




:sad:  You're nothing short of amazing.


--------------------
Prisoner#1:  Hanky doesn't send PMs to retards

UncleLuke:  That's not true.  Hanky has sent me a total of 3 PMs.


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