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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
#7750128 - 12/12/07 04:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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> While you're at it, why not inform them that they're living in fantasy land?
There is no doubt that green tech can save money in some cases. However, this is the rare case, not the common case. Even if it is the common case, most companies are short sighted and are unwilling to invest in the technology when they can outsource immediately and save money. I wish it weren't so, but such is the nature of greed.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
#7750166 - 12/12/07 04:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Oh really. Perhaps that explains the climate change on Mars. Or that rise in CO2 concentrations follow rises in temperature. Or that CO2 concentration is so low as to be nearly insignificant (380 parts per million) compared to water vapor. Must be some magical gas.
You all can be as dumb as you want but nothing will end up being done and nothing will end up happening and this will all go away just like the last global cooling fad. http://www.climate-skeptic.com/ http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2007/10/09/court-identifies-eleven-inaccuracies-al-gore-s-inconvenient-truth http://icecap.us/index.php/go/joes-blog/comments_about_global_warming/ http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/4391
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
#7750222 - 12/12/07 05:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: Even if it is the common case, most companies are short sighted and are unwilling to invest in the technology when they can outsource immediately and save money. I wish it weren't so, but such is the nature of greed.
It is the common case. It's just a matter of companies waking up to the new paradigm. The Rocky Mountain Institute specializes in helping companies save money, energy, and resources through innovative design and strategy. They have worked with several Fortune 500 companies, as well as many small companies, and I know of no instances where they have not succeeded in helping them achieve substantial savings. The principles of Green design are sound, and it has proven itself over and over again. It is only due to laziness and lack of information that more companies are not following suit. But that will surely change in the years to come.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
#7750349 - 12/12/07 05:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I hope you are correct... but the cynic in me doubts it.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: zappaisgod]
#7751454 - 12/12/07 09:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't think there's any question that the earth is pretty resilisent, however, there is more to this global warming than simply CO2 emissions and other results of fossil fuel use. We cannot stay on a fossil fuel economy forever, and this is a fact. Our oil reserves we have now will serve us much better in the future when we need them to synthesize complex plastics and other things that are far more useful than cars, which could be made to run with other sources of energy.
Some people think that there is going to be one solution to all of this, be it solar power, nuclear power, or even coal. The fact of the matter is, its not going to be this simple, which is why many people have a hard time adjusting to the very real fact that our world will be done great harm by putting off alternative fuels. We may not be meeting apocalypse, but the sooner people fix the problem, the better, and if global warming is a motivation for them to do so, so be it. Your websites are a joke zappa, don't feed me that crackpot nonsense, lets see some real scientific journals. What you are doing is like arguing intelligent design.
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carbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
#7752501 - 12/13/07 03:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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The Kyoto protocol is a socialist scheme to suck money from rich contries and funnel it to poor ones?
The equivalent of this sort of nonesensical talk would be to just make jibberish sounds. Mblah, kujut onery wert henber. Bah.
That ought to be the next Conservative party election slogan. You know, like how last time it was "stand up for Canada"
t would be more intelligent than what usually comes out of their mouths.
Fuck Harper is such a shitty, shitty PM for this country. Although he seems to have a certain level of support, he's really having a hard time getting what he needs. There is a very strong opposition to him that would never be pursuaded to vote for him, and I keep trying to believe that this ultra right wing government might just end up being a short lived thing.
Edited by carbonhoots (12/13/07 03:36 AM)
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: carbonhoots]
#7752555 - 12/13/07 04:24 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
The Kyoto protocol is a socialist scheme to suck money from rich contries and funnel it to poor ones?
The equivalent of this sort of nonesensical talk would be to just make jibberish sounds. Mblah, kujut onery wert henber. Bah.
Great. Care to actually debate and provide some examples that show how Kyoto is not a socialist scheme rather than demonstrating your baby-talk abilities?
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
#7752697 - 12/13/07 06:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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The burden of proof is on you. The Kyoto protocol was designed as a treaty to prevent climate change, to say anything else would require evidence.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
#7752799 - 12/13/07 07:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: Great. Care to actually debate and provide some examples that show how Kyoto is not a socialist scheme rather than demonstrating your baby-talk abilities?
Care to demonstrate how it is? Last I remember, socialism was about putting the means of production in the hands of the proletariat. I see nothing in the Kyoto protocol which calls for that.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Silversoul]
#7752831 - 12/13/07 08:14 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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> I see nothing in the Kyoto protocol which calls for that.
I prefer to think of it as redistribution of wealth rather than socialism. As I said earlier, until all countries agree to equal cuts (or caps), the producers of pollution will simply move production (assuming it is more cost effective than going green) to places where they can pollute. For the most part, companies are driven by short term profit, and will do whatever is cheapest in the short term.
Edit: My one and only issue with Kyoto is that it exempts "developing" countries.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
Edited by Seuss (12/13/07 08:19 AM)
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carbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
#7755851 - 12/13/07 08:59 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't care to debate my ranting and raving. Sorry.
Anyways...never fear companies moving to pollute where they can.
Footloose capital can be compelled to stay put through law!
Anyways, the Kyoto protocol calls for bigger emission reductions from the rich countries in the first round, because it is the rich countries who have pumped out most of thae CO2 over the last century. The developing countries did not cause the problem, but in future rounds of cuts, the Kyoto protocol compels the developing countries to reduce their emissions too.
-------------------- -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES
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SlashOZ
:D



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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: carbonhoots]
#7756355 - 12/13/07 10:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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lets look at the revenue for car manufacturers. ford and gm are in the shitter while toyota and honda are making major bank because they have more fuel efficient cars. i'm sorry but it seems to me going green helped the japanese auto makers. the example crosses every other sector of the economy as well. companies that go green end up saving their consumers money as well as themselves. so this just means more sales therefore more profits. i can see how communist going green is...
-------------------- "Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose "Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS "When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi "Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson. "Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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carbonhoots
old hand

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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: SlashOZ]
#7756887 - 12/14/07 12:19 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah really. Ford and GM also strongly resisted getting regulated into producing fuel efficient cars way back when. They would of been better of not to of spent millions on that lobbying campaign, cuz now they'd have cars people actually want to buy.
So what does that tell you? The market can be a blind fool, and that controling the economy throught the government can work very well.
-------------------- -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: carbonhoots]
#7757190 - 12/14/07 03:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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> because it is the rich countries who have pumped out most of thae CO2 over the last century.
Why should anybody care?! If the world is really dying, then everybody has to pitch in to save it. It is insane that a country would say, "We are going to continue killing the planet until the damage we have done is equal to the damage your ancestors did!" Your statement reinforces my position; Kyoto is nothing more than a wealth redistribution plan. Either the world is dying and everybody must pitch in, or the world isn't dying, and nobody should have to pitch in.
> Footloose capital can be compelled to stay put through law!
And yet the law is working in the opposite direction... why? Politicians and lobbyist. How does my "selling" pollution (through "carbon credits") to a country (or company) that doesn't currently pollute help reduce pollution? It doesn't. It redistributes wealth and appears that I am doing something beneficial when I haven't done anything at all.
> ford and gm are in the shitter while toyota and honda are making major bank because they have more fuel efficient cars
... and it has nothing at all to do with Japanese business methods and ethics compared to their competitors? I would love to see a study that backs up your claim that the reason Japanese car makers do better than US car markers is because Japanese cars are more fuel efficient.
> companies that go green end up saving their consumers money as well as themselves
Perhaps, in the long term. In the short term going green is a huge cost. Companies, for the most part, are driven by short term profits. How, exactly, does it save a coal burning power plant money to install scrubbers on their smoke stacks rather than dumping all their toxins in to the air?
> i can see how communist going green is...
What does government taking ownership of everything have to do with going green?
> Ford and GM also strongly resisted getting regulated into producing fuel efficient cars way back when.
I guess the research I did for GM back in 1990-1991 for the battery powered GM Impact was really an effort by GM to stay away from producing fuel efficient cars. The impact was killed by the oil companies. You are pointing the finger at the wrong culprit.
> So what does that tell you? The market can be a blind fool, and that controling the economy throught the government can work very well.
Ah, back to government controlled redistribution of wealth in the name of pollution control. Thanks for making my case for me.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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SlashOZ
:D



Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
#7757709 - 12/14/07 09:58 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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-------------------- "Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose "Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS "When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi "Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson. "Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: SlashOZ]
#7757742 - 12/14/07 10:11 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
In this study, we examine the economic viability of improving fuel economy as a strategy to mitigate the risk of high fuel prices and to gain a competitive advantage.
What am I supposed to learn, exactly? That in the future transportation markets, the demand for hybrid (or fuel efficient) vehicles is going to increase? I already know that.
(I actually know the guy that wrote the summary you referenced. He used to work for GM.)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
#7757796 - 12/14/07 10:32 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ford and GM are in the shitter because of their labor costs. There is no global warming It is not caused by human activity There is nothing to be done about it It is a scam
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
#7757949 - 12/14/07 11:15 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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> There is no global warming
There is dynamic climate change, and we are in a period of accelerating change. (I'm not refuting your comment; instead I am trying to define terminology within context.)
> It is not caused by human activity
The accelerating climate change would be occurring right now regardless of mankind. However, I think it is safe to say that mankind isn't helping the situation and that reduction in pollution is a good thing. What concerns me are the eco-terrorists that use 'global warming' to scare people into fixing something that may not be broken resulting in more damage than good. I'm not talking about people that recycle or ride a bike instead of drive a car. I am talking about the people that burn SUVs and ski lodges, or that try to prevent the natural changes from occurring (such as covering glaciers or pumping CO2 into the ocean) without understanding the impact that their actions have on the planet.
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Seuss]
#7757962 - 12/14/07 11:20 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
However, I think it is safe to say that mankind isn't helping the situation and that reduction in pollution is a good thing.
Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant.
Phred
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: Stop Stephen Harper from blocking UN climate talks! [Re: Phred]
#7757966 - 12/14/07 11:21 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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It is, however, a greenhouse gas, and we are producing tons of it.
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