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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7741960 - 12/10/07 06:08 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
It's all belief all the way down.
Belief = turtle
Logic = alligator
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7741993 - 12/10/07 06:16 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
It's all belief all the way down.
Belief = turtle
Logic = alligator
Not quite, logic is a belief also.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7742050 - 12/10/07 06:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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A belief with scales and REALLY BIG fucking teeth.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7742092 - 12/10/07 06:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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They have scales? In Vegas?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7742132 - 12/10/07 06:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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i didnt get that one until i saw the aligator ate the turtle
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 25 days
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: daytripper23]
#7742140 - 12/10/07 06:50 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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That's it, no more Steve Irwin for you
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7742196 - 12/10/07 06:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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No more Steve Irwin for anyone.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Veritas]
#7742211 - 12/10/07 07:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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It was fun while it lasted
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7742227 - 12/10/07 07:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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S'alright, Steve Irwin speaks to us from beyond the grave.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7742279 - 12/10/07 07:11 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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This is exactly what was missing Btw, at min. 3 I gave up watching.
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7742298 - 12/10/07 07:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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hahahaha that is awesome
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 25 days
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Lion]
#7742384 - 12/10/07 07:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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There was a desperate need for a Steve Irwin emoticon in this thread:
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7743871 - 12/11/07 05:48 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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'IT' isn't about 'what' we're experiencing. It is 'What' is doing the experiencing - the Awareness - colorless, Clear Light the Buddhists call it, Being. We are Awareness, Being. Everything else is irrelevant here because we project or identify with form constantly, being Self-forgetful in the process of life. The Reality of Being is the Witnessing Awareness, not the 'objects' of Awareness.
Your existentialist quotation is just another mentally constipated perception - unable to see the forest for the trees. Actually, unable to discern the Seer from the seen.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#7744383 - 12/11/07 10:00 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
We are Awareness, Being. Everything else is irrelevant here because we project or identify with form constantly, being Self-forgetful in the process of life. The Reality of Being is the Witnessing Awareness, not the 'objects' of Awareness.
These are your beliefs, and do not necessarily describe reality. To you, it may seem obvious that this is the nature of Ultimate Reality, but this does not mean that you are correct in your assertions. It's all "best guess," and to assert otherwise is the philosophical equivalent of plugging one's ears and singing "LA LA LA, I can't hear you!!"
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Veritas]
#7744460 - 12/11/07 10:44 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: No more Steve Irwin for anyone.
I got stung by a stingray. It was excrutiating pain and muscle spasms for almost six hours. The next day my head was swollen like a pumpkin.
And that was from a small one puncturing my toe, not a huge one with a dagger to the heart.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Veritas]
#7745797 - 12/11/07 04:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Belief is after the Experience of Knowing. Being-Knowledge is the classic mytical experience. Mental experiences of a certain order best 'reflect' Being. This is why a mystic such as Ramana Maharshi spoke of the Sahasrara experiences as the Chandra mandala [the lunar sphere] whereas the Surya Mandala [solar sphere] of the Hridayam represented the Self or Being which supported these Sahasrara experiences (Cosmic Consciousness). This is a model belonging to the Non-dualist tradition of Advaita which serves to transform-down the mystical experience into a an intellectual model. Beliefs are intellectual models which are reflective of a transrational experience of Pure Consciousness.
Most people believe in the experiences of others. That makes them believers. Even adhering to a model that explicates one's own experience intellectually makes one a believer. But the original Experience - a PCE (Pure Consciousness Event) is not itself a belief. It is an immediate experience, which is to say, an experience which is unmediated by the rational factulty. It is not irrational as in a predominatingly emotional sense, it is transrational - awareness not yet 'formed' by linguistic processes which break the unifying condition into discrete analyzable parts. Being is not reducible to states of human consciousness - interfaces with the brain and body in which the brain is integrated.
Now, perhaps you have not experienced this condition, or as Hendrix put it, "Have you ever been Experienced?" Have 'you' as egoic-mind ever been experienced from the Witnessing Awareness? Have 'you' (paradoxically) ever experienced your identity as an 'object' perceived from your Higher Identity as the Witnessing Subject? If you had, then you would be compelled by the nature of the Experience to arrive at a similarly formulated belief when you returned to ordinary consciousness. One can doubt one's interpretation of any experience except for the Experience of Being Witness to any experience. It is not the Cartesian "I think, therefore I am" as much as "I AM therefore I AM." Identity, Awareness, is ontologically prior to thinking. I do not believe that I AM, it is a tautology.
Being is Buddhist Emptiness in my meaning, or Hindu Nirguna Brahman or Kabbalistic 'Ain' or Christian "Superessential Godhead" - all Unmanifest but constituting the Ultimately Real. This is Positing the Negative, and language ends at this point...as does my attempt to convey the difference between your understanding and mine. There are mystics and non-mystics.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#7745864 - 12/11/07 04:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
But the original Experience - a PCE (Pure Consciousness Event) is not itself a belief. It is an immediate experience, which is to say, an experience which is unmediated by the rational factulty. It is not irrational as in a predominatingly emotional sense, it is transrational - awareness not yet 'formed' by linguistic processes which break the unifying condition into discrete analyzable parts.
I do not think that it is possible for humans to have immediate experiences. We take in information through our senses, and tell ourselves a story about that information. Everything we experience, once we become aware of it via perception, is indirect and contains many "editorial comments. "
But if your "best guess" is that such a thing is possible, that's fine. My point is that it simply doesn't make sense to insist that it is FACTUAL.
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Silversoul
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Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#7745945 - 12/11/07 05:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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The experience of consciousness cannot be denied. That much is certain, as demonstrated by Descartes. However, such experience tells us nothing about the nature of consciousness or from whence it arises. I'm certainly inclined towards the Advaita philosophy that consciousness precedes matter. But simply experiencing pure consciousness cannot prove this.
Brain scans have shown a correlation between transcendent experiences and certain parts of the brain being active and certain parts being inactive. I also think materialists put the cart before the horse in assuming that this means such experiences are mere hallucinations produced by the brain, but that is still a valid interpretation.
In summary, to experience pure consciousness tells us nothing other than the fact that we are experiencing something.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
#7745954 - 12/11/07 05:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
In summary, to experience pure consciousness tells us nothing other than the fact that we are experiencing something.
Indeed.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Veritas]
#7747263 - 12/11/07 09:50 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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The experiences in question were not sensory experiences to be interpreted by the rational mind, they were entirely inner experiences. Facticity, for you, more than likely, means demonstrable phenomena. Inner experiences are subjectively experienced within the locus of one human being. Only the effects on that being can serve to manifest the experience[s] to others. I suggest reading Abraham Maslow's Toward a Psychology of Being if you ever become truly interested in mystical experience considered from a psychological perspective.
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