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dshroom
balshem

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 174
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
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casing grain
#7741106 - 12/10/07 03:07 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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is there any reason not to take inoculated grain, case it, and fruit, rather than spawning to a bulk substrate?
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ComfortablyStond
Mr. Lizard



Registered: 03/15/06
Posts: 239
Loc: Psychedelphia, USA
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
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Re: casing grain [Re: dshroom]
#7741109 - 12/10/07 03:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Nope.
Peace.
-------------------- "It's not a war on drugs. It's a war on personal freedom. Keep that in mind at all times..." Bill Hicks
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rice_smuggler
Stranger



Registered: 10/18/07
Posts: 28
Last seen: 16 years, 27 days
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If you're looking for higher yield and potentially more potent shrooms bulk is the only way to go but since that's not what you asked you could go right ahead and case/fruit inoculated grain.
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Cheesekiller
Mad Scientist



Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 485
Loc: Central NY
Last seen: 1 month, 1 day
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Grain works way better as spawn. Try it next time and see the difference by yourself.
-CK
-------------------- Bulk grower with "some" success. Cloning Machine Nice Lids A few pics of my DT setup
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oxohawkoxo
Myconaught


Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 23
Last seen: 12 years, 29 days
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I'm no expert but ... A few thoughts.
First, crumbling your cakes causes them to need a good 2 or 3 days to recover and begin to "spread out" again.
Second, adding a casing layer adds no new nutrients and therefor adds nothing to the amount or potency of mushrooms grown from your grain. Though there are exceptions, depends what you use, but if you are adding a nutritious casing layer you run a greater risk of contams; so why not just go bulk and pasteurize a bunch?
Third, adding a casing layer requires it to be colonized before your myc will pin. Add this time to the few days from crumbling.
Fourth, a casing layer introduces complications like pH and new vectors for contamination.
That all being said, a casing layer is lovely for retaining moisture and to help keep your humidity a bit higher in an enclosed or semi-enclosed area. It also increases the surface area availble for pins to form. (Never mathed it out, but I honestly think it's negligible)
Personally, if I weren't spawning to a bulk, I'd just dunk and roll. Not only does it save you a good week or more worth of extra time, the verm layer acts as a mini casing layer for moisture, there are no new vectors for contams, you don't use any more 'ingredients' ($), and your yield is still the same.
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thedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
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oxohawkoxo, he's talking about grains... not cakes. Only laziness should keep you from spawning all that grain to bulk. Your results will be far superior to anything cases will produce.
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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
Edited by thedefone (12/10/07 03:46 PM)
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dshroom
balshem

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 174
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
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Re: casing grain [Re: thedefone]
#7741322 - 12/10/07 03:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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first,thanks. i am not so interested in bulk as i have a freezer full. i AM interested in potency. does spwning to poo and straw and coir substrate increase potency?
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Nibin
Getting there



Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4,480
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: casing grain [Re: thedefone]
#7741326 - 12/10/07 03:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Cased grain fruits well and has a pretty good biological efficiency, as grains are more nutrient rich than poo or straw. But you will get many more shrooms by spawning to poo at say a 4:1 ratio.
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
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Premedman1
Assistant to the insistent



Registered: 12/21/05
Posts: 2,376
Loc: South of Sanity
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Re: casing grain [Re: dshroom]
#7741445 - 12/10/07 04:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
dshroom said: i AM interested in potency. does spwning to poo and straw and coir substrate increase potency?
No, potency is genetic.
-------------------- Build a man a fire, he is warm for the night. Set a man on fire, he is warm for the rest of his life.
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soulsizzle
nobody f**kswith The Jesus


Registered: 05/17/05
Posts: 632
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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You can, to some degree of success, fruit from straight grains. If you are not spawning to a bulk substrate, a casing layer is nearly necessary to get any results from your grains. The grains themselves simply do not maintain moisture very well. I would recommend fruiting in a chamber similar to that which you would use to fruit BRF cakes. That is, with as near to 100% RH as possible.
Additionally, to emphasize what Premedman1 said, potency is genetic. Whether you spawn from cased grains or a bulk substrate, the potency should be relatively unaffected. The only thing that will change will be yield.
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Edited by soulsizzle (12/11/07 12:35 AM)
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Nibin
Getting there



Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4,480
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Couple of things
Quote:
soulsizzle said: You can, to some degree of success, spawn from straight grains
You can, to some degree of success, FRUIT from straight grains. You can ALWAYS use them as spawn, that is what we use them for most of the time. Spawn is just a fully colonized substrate that is intended for mixing with more uncolonized substrate. As Spawn one can use grains, pf cakes or even poo or coir.
It is important to use vocabulary correctly or people can get confused
Quote:
soulsizzle said: The grains themselves simply do not maintain moisture very well. I would recommend fruiting in a chamber similar to that which you would use to fruit BRF cakes. That is, with as near to 100% RH as possible.
You can use a terrarium style FC or a martha or any other system that keep your RH in the high nineties. I wouldn't personally recommend a monotub of straight cased grains.
Quote:
soulsizzle said: Additionally, to emphasize what Premedman1 said, potency is genetic. Whether you spawn from cased grains or a bulk substrate, the potency should be relatively unaffected. The only thing that will change will be yield.
Your yield per gram of substrate will be greater with straight cased grains
BUT
Your total yield would be higher spawning to a bulk substrate, as you would end up with 4/5 times more substrate weight
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
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soulsizzle
nobody f**kswith The Jesus


Registered: 05/17/05
Posts: 632
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: casing grain [Re: Nibin]
#7743536 - 12/11/07 12:41 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Nibin said: You can, to some degree of success, FRUIT from straight grains.
And I've always been a stickler for using the proper vocab. Looks like you caught me sleeping. 
Quote:
You can use a terrarium style FC
This is what I was referring to. A martha/greenhouse set-up doesn't seem appropriate.
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Your yield per gram of substrate will be greater with straight cased grains
I'm not sure that I agree with this. Although I haven't sat down and calculated the biological efficiency of cased grains, I find it hard to believe that it would be higher than a poo-based substrate, for example. It has been years since I have attempted to spawn from cased grains, but I don't recall being able to get many flushes out of it. I think this is the major pitfall to its BE.
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Nibin
Getting there



Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4,480
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Just think of how many mushies you get from a pf cake and you are only adding half a cup of rice.
There is no way you would get that amount of fruits from half a cup of poo
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
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soulsizzle
nobody f**kswith The Jesus


Registered: 05/17/05
Posts: 632
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: casing grain [Re: Nibin]
#7747710 - 12/12/07 12:03 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Nibin said: Just think of how many mushies you get from a pf cake and you are only adding half a cup of rice.
The water retaining abilities of a pf cake and straight grains are very different. The simple fact is that grains do not hold moisture very well at all. This, without a doubt, has a great impact on yield per flush and the number of flushes.
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Nibin
Getting there



Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4,480
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Quote:
soulsizzle said:
Quote:
Nibin said: Just think of how many mushies you get from a pf cake and you are only adding half a cup of rice.
The water retaining abilities of a pf cake and straight grains are very different. The simple fact is that grains do not hold moisture very well at all. This, without a doubt, has a great impact on yield per flush and the number of flushes.
Which is why we have to case grains, because they don't fruit uncased. But I ave seen people get a kilogram of wet weight out of just over a quart of cased grain.
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
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soulsizzle
nobody f**kswith The Jesus


Registered: 05/17/05
Posts: 632
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: casing grain [Re: Nibin]
#7749480 - 12/12/07 01:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Nibin said: Which is why we have to case grains, because they don't fruit uncased. But I ave seen people get a kilogram of wet weight out of just over a quart of cased grain.
Perhaps I am being biased by my own personal experience. I have never seen results like you describe above. I admit I have made only a few attempts at cased grains very early on in my mycological studies. Obviously, my knowledge and procedure has evolved quite a bit since then.
And just so we're on the same page, I want to make it clear that I haven't presented my arguments in a matter-of-fact manner. More so as a tool for expanding my own understnading. Thanks for the good discussion
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