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OfflinementalIMAGE
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A Trippy Thought..
    #7736563 - 12/09/07 01:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

So, I was reading the line my signature, and began thinking about what Kesey meant. What was the message he was trying to get across?

So I thought.. and, if our actions are just a reaction to the moment that has just occurred, we aren't actually living. We're just puppets to the stimulus around us, reacting in random and different ways every time. Sure, we have the freedom of choice to choose how to react, but ultimately we're still stimulus' bitch.

Will there ever be a time where we are the stimulus to all that is around us? Perhaps the 5th dimension? I don't want to think about that yet.. let me get my smoke tool quick.


--------------------

We are always acting on what has just finished happening. It happened at least 1/30th of a second ago. We think we're in the present, but we aren't. The present we know is only a movie of the past.
Ken Kesey


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InvisibleBirdsIView
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: mentalIMAGE]
    #7736587 - 12/09/07 01:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

In the end, we don't decide a single thing. We only react to the things around us based on our genetic make-up. While incredibly complicated, this leads me to believe that it is possible to map out all of history and the future.


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OfflinementalIMAGE
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: BirdsIView]
    #7736684 - 12/09/07 01:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Nice point :wink:


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We are always acting on what has just finished happening. It happened at least 1/30th of a second ago. We think we're in the present, but we aren't. The present we know is only a movie of the past.
Ken Kesey


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OfflineJustice_Fish
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: mentalIMAGE]
    #7736691 - 12/09/07 01:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I don't know who pointed the thought that we don't live, we just remember, but that's how I think life is. We remember our life.


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Offlineshwrestler
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: Justice_Fish]
    #7737041 - 12/09/07 03:03 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

wow thats cool to think about it..im definatley going to think about that on my next shroom trip


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no needles, no rocks..i trip


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Offlineexit
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: shwrestler]
    #7737063 - 12/09/07 03:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The determinist view that all of our actions -effects- are influenced solely by causes, and under the circumstances we are unable to act differently. Cause and effect. The illusion of free will.If we were determined than surely we shouldnt be held morally responsible for our actions.

I'd have to disagree. It's easy to argue for the determinist view however each and every single day you make choices. They are not an illusion, a good ammount are influenced by the past, however you still have room for freedom and spontaneous action.


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You keep looking but you can't find the woods, while you're hiding in the trees..


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Offlinekcobra15
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: exit]
    #7737317 - 12/09/07 04:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I believe that Kesey quote is quite similar to the buhddist philosophy of "dependent origination". Check it out.


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Om Gam Ganapataye Namah


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OfflineAlCapwn
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: exit]
    #7737349 - 12/09/07 04:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Moral responsibility is a major factor in determinism, and eliminating it would still be a retarded idea.

Spontaneity could be a product of your environment also. Take these two scenarios. They are both identical in every way. You put a person in a situation. You put his doppelganger in the identical situation. When the scenario starts, both people have lived 100% identical lives. At that moment they have the exact same thought in their head. Given how associative memory works, would those two people come to the same conclusion of what to do next even if that thing was totally spontaneous and otherwise unpredictable?


--------------------
Huuuuurrrrrr!


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: AlCapwn]
    #7737465 - 12/09/07 05:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

If you follow the train of thought backwards from this idea, all the way to the big bang concept, would the entire history of the universe not be based on one fraction of a second catalyst?

Was the future determined, whether by some being or just natural laws, from the beginning of existence?


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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OfflineAlCapwn
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: g00ru]
    #7737493 - 12/09/07 05:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Existence is too absurd, I wouldn't know. I'm just talking about human determinism.


--------------------
Huuuuurrrrrr!


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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: g00ru]
    #7737496 - 12/09/07 05:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

that is some intense thinking.... my head hurts


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Offlineexit
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: stevo15]
    #7737801 - 12/09/07 06:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

In that scenerio, the answer would depend on the choice the individuals have make. If it's something insignificant like a choice inbetween using one of several pencils, the two would most likely choose different pencils. However, if it is a concious decision on something important, the two will act in the same way? why? because they have had the exact same experiences and have made the exact same choices in the past, obstructing them from any other choice. I am the soft determinist.


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You keep looking but you can't find the woods, while you're hiding in the trees..


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OfflineKapitoshka
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: exit]
    #7737910 - 12/09/07 07:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Well, instead of being a victim of these impulses, why not go against them? Specifically and methodically contradicting them each time they pop into attention? Great practice.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: Kapitoshka]
    #7737913 - 12/09/07 07:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kapitoshka said:
Well, instead of being a victim of these impulses, why not go against them? Specifically and methodically contradicting them each time they pop into attention? Great practice.




That doesn't solve anything. Either way, you are acting in reaction to the impulses, so the theory still stands.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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OfflineKapitoshka
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: g00ru]
    #7737947 - 12/09/07 07:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
That doesn't solve anything. Either way, you are acting in reaction to the impulses, so the theory still stands.




That is not true. To act in reaction to an impulse is to act without a thought, just going with the flow. Manipulating reactions to impulses gives freedom over things most people consider unalterable.


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OfflineAlCapwn
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: Kapitoshka]
    #7737980 - 12/09/07 07:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, but impulse is never truly pure. To be impulsive, you have to decide to be impulsive. And if you have to decide to be impulsive, you have to think of what impulsive is. This means that the notion of impulsiveness may vary from person to person based on their experiences and you'll never really be truly impulsive, only seemingly. Unless you can make a body function without a brain, no one will ever really be 100% impulsive.


--------------------
Huuuuurrrrrr!


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InvisibleInfested
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: g00ru]
    #7737992 - 12/09/07 07:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
That doesn't solve anything. Either way, you are acting in reaction to the impulses, so the theory still stands.




You are aware of the situation that mijority of people are in. And you just fall for it. Controlling your reaction (or going against it)is possible. This is actually the only way you can alter "fate".

The theory doesn't stand still, the theory has a huge hole in it.


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OfflineAlCapwn
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: Infested]
    #7738002 - 12/09/07 07:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Prove to me that controlling your reaction or going against it cannot be the result of fate at work whatsoever.


--------------------
Huuuuurrrrrr!


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InvisibleInfested
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: AlCapwn]
    #7738033 - 12/09/07 08:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

AlCapwn said:
Yes, but impulse is never truly pure. To be impulsive, you have to decide to be impulsive. And if you have to decide to be impulsive, you have to think of what impulsive is. This means that the notion of impulsiveness may vary from person to person based on their experiences and you'll never really be truly impulsive, only seemingly. Unless you can make a body function without a brain, no one will ever really be 100% impulsive.




Its not an impulse its a decision. Impulse is still following the system. You need to shift back and look at it from even more different perspective. Everything we do is an impulse. But one is able to go against these impulses and instead make different reaction based on the decision you make to the stimuli.

And instead of calling it impulsiveness put it in terms of higher states of awareness. Yes its hard to be 100% but thats what some are trying to reach, instead of not trying at all... Even 1% can change your life.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: Infested]
    #7738072 - 12/09/07 08:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think you guys understand. If i am understanding this thread, people are talking about how your 'fate' is predetermined based on events already transpired.

Lemme give an example: You can either pick up a pencil or leave it on the table. Impulse says to pick it up. You refute this impulse and leave it on the table, perhaps because you want to prove the theory of determinism incorrect, or for any other reason. Either way, your choice is based on prior events and information. Now heres the question: was the option of you picking up the pencil even possible? You would think yes, but it never happened and never will happen, so by that logic is there not only one possible course of action our lives will ever take?

This might sound crazy but the only way I can see around it is the concept of parallel universes, where every conceivable choice is in some universe chosen and is therefore theoretically possible.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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OfflineQuerjek
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: Infested]
    #7738082 - 12/09/07 08:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

If your body is in the present, then your mind is in the future; that's all it is.


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tripping eyes and flooded lungs
northern downpour sends its love


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InvisibleInfested
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: AlCapwn]
    #7738091 - 12/09/07 08:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

AlCapwn said:
Prove to me that controlling your reaction or going against it cannot be the result of fate at work whatsoever.




Why don't you prove it your self... Just give it a try, dedicate a day. Act in an opposite manner of what you usually would. Like Kapitoshka said its "Great practice."

Remember that to act differently on all the impulses you need to be aware of all of them. You really have to switch perspectives and watch your self live.


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InvisibleInfested
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: Querjek]
    #7738099 - 12/09/07 08:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Querjek said:
If your body is in the present, then your mind is in the future; that's all it is.




Exactly doesn't that sound very predictable.. That you can almost take advantage of it.


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OfflineAlCapwn
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: Infested]
    #7738114 - 12/09/07 08:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

But that's just based on how I normally would react. And if I did that, I'd be reacting to this thread, so everything I would be doing, despite being spontaneous, would have a purpose. In doing so, you paradoxically defeat your own purpose, and therefore are a huge asshole.


--------------------
Huuuuurrrrrr!


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InvisibleInfested
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: AlCapwn]
    #7738137 - 12/09/07 08:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

AlCapwn said:
But that's just based on how I normally would react. And if I did that, I'd be reacting to this thread, so everything I would be doing, despite being spontaneous, would have a purpose. In doing so, you paradoxically defeat your own purpose, and therefore are a huge asshole.




Well for first you were just defeated.. You gave up, you don't even want to give it a try.

Secondly you already fucked up from what i told you to do. That was your impulse saying fuck this shit i am not going to do it fuck this asshole (because this is what you would normally do) . But instead you should reverse this impulse actually do it.

You will not be acting upon my post you will be acting upon things in life what ever it has in store for you.

Edit: And This post is one of those things.

Or are you trying to say normally you would actually listen to me and give it a try and since your normal reaction should be acted upon differently. If so i am glad you started early :laugh:


Edited by Infested (12/09/07 08:38 PM)


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OfflineKapitoshka
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: g00ru]
    #7738170 - 12/09/07 08:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I am not interested in proving any philosophical concepts, but interested only in practical aspect of things. I know what I am talking about based on my experience, what it done to my life and what is the span of possibilities. You, on the other hand, discuss the matter from purely conceptual perspective and attempt to bring my arguments to that level. Do not do that.

To Guuru: Not picking up pencil is easy, stopping playing WoW isn't :wink:


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OfflineAlCapwn
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: Kapitoshka]
    #7738194 - 12/09/07 08:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Well, this thread is on the subject of a philosophical notion, so to reply with non philosophical answers you're far from answering the original post, or even providing useful input.


--------------------
Huuuuurrrrrr!


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OfflineKapitoshka
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: AlCapwn]
    #7738222 - 12/09/07 08:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

AlCapwn said:
Well, this thread is on the subject of a philosophical notion, so to reply with non philosophical answers you're far from answering the original post, or even providing useful input.




So, you're insisting that practical advice that can beneficially change one's life and give a new dimension to life is not to be considered a useful input.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: Kapitoshka]
    #7738224 - 12/09/07 08:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kapitoshka said:
To Guuru: Not picking up pencil is easy, stopping playing WoW isn't :wink:




Quit.....WoW?

I'm sorry I don't understand. :lol:


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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OfflineAlCapwn
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: Infested]
    #7738226 - 12/09/07 08:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Jump off a cliff. No? You were just defeated, you don't even want to give it a try.

I don't think you understand where I'm coming from very well.

Seriously, the reason I say you were defeated is because trying to prove that actions can be independent from reaction to something, you are reacting to something, therefore losing. It's a paradox because it contradicts itself, and paradoxes are impossible and cannot exist.

Another example of a paradox would be "I always lie". It's impossible.


--------------------
Huuuuurrrrrr!


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OfflineKapitoshka
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: g00ru]
    #7738246 - 12/09/07 08:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

guruu said:

I'm sorry I don't understand. :lol:




Heh, nm then )


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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: AlCapwn]
    #7738282 - 12/09/07 08:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

What kind of mentally ill person would use such a tool for cost or suicide. I don't just randomly react to impulses... after all thats what an impulse are... Instead I make a decision that will benefit me.

I don't think you understand where i am coming from.. Because i am talking from experience. I know there is something to it because i am using it everyday.. And i am not the only one. I am not the only one at all.

But unfortunately it takes one to know one.

Great discussion i am out to bed :smile:


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: Infested]
    #7738288 - 12/09/07 08:57 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Infested said:
What kind of mentally ill person would use such a tool for cost or suicide. I don't just randomly react to impulses... after all thats what an impulse are... Instead I make a decision that will benefit me.

I don't think you understand where i am coming from.. Because i am talking from experience. I know there is something to it because i am using it everyday.. And i am not the only one. I am not the only one at all.

But unfortunately it takes one to know one.

Great discussion i am out to bed :smile:




I'm not sure if you realize it or not, but trust me, you're wrong.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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OfflineAlCapwn
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: g00ru]
    #7738301 - 12/09/07 09:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Hahaha, nothing irritates me more than when people don't bother REALLY reading my posts and then reply. It's not a hard concept to grasp. At least you're on my side.


--------------------
Huuuuurrrrrr!


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Offlinefuture
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: AlCapwn]
    #7741704 - 12/10/07 05:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

it is true though, i had this insight on a mushroom trip once. We remember our lives, they have already happened and it's been this way since infinity.

We are under the impression that we are in control and that we have free will, which is all false.


--------------------
I am the fakest person on this site. I only pretend to grow and consume illegal mushrooms. I have no knowledge what so ever on any scheduled substance because I know and respect the governing law in the United States of America. All pictures and dialogue posted by me is entirley copyrighted from those who wish to knowingly ignore the laws. I only post these messages as a mere propaganda technique used to gain attention and admiration from others. Thank You


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OfflineAlCapwn
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: future]
    #7742413 - 12/10/07 07:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Well, it really depends on if you believe the philosophical notion or not. Proving this is equally as hard as proving god, it's all theoretical. However, human reaction could be provable.


--------------------
Huuuuurrrrrr!


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Offlineleery11
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: g00ru]
    #7742432 - 12/10/07 07:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i don't particularly think we have free will

why

because i just wrote that

i didn't write about garbonzo beans

think it over

you just read this, and can only write whatever you write, or don't write, and nothing else ever


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: AlCapwn]
    #7742454 - 12/10/07 07:56 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

It would be very hard to prove though. I'll just take things as they come. If it really is me just reacting to the universe or a higher power or being... then so be it. I still feel like I'm making choice none the less.


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Nothing I say is true. It is entirely fictional. In fact, my life is entirely fictional. I do not exist.


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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: leery11]
    #7742457 - 12/10/07 07:57 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
i don't particularly think we have free will

why

because i just wrote that

i didn't write about garbonzo beans

think it over

you just read this, and can only write whatever you write, or don't write, and nothing else ever




But do we not make the choice to write it? You could have written about garbonzo beans just as easily couldn't have you?


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Nothing I say is true. It is entirely fictional. In fact, my life is entirely fictional. I do not exist.


Edited by adrian7812 (12/10/07 07:58 PM)


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OfflinecoulterIV
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: g00ru]
    #7742463 - 12/10/07 07:58 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"Your awakening, while slow and sometimes painful, is assured, and this you must trust above all else."~Wingmakers


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BREATHE IN LOVE
BREATHE OUT FORGIVENESS
(If you’re not in your breath, you’re in your mind)


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OfflinecoulterIV
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: coulterIV]
    #7742682 - 12/10/07 08:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

coulterIV said:
"Your awakening, while slow and sometimes painful, is assured, and this you must trust above all else."~Wingmakers




Drunvalo: There were three very clear directives. The first one was to simply watch the changes that were occurring. Its hard to understand because we are in linear time and we think of past, present and future. There is a place where all things are happening at once. From that place, the person to whom you are now talking directed it into what you call the past to be here now. The second directive was to bring the teaching of the Merkaba back so we could remember what that was about. The third one had to do with the study of relationships during this extraordinary time that this planet is going through. My directive, from my Self to myself, was to become totally grounded in the Earth experience, and to immerse myself in everything - all the problems and everything else, not to remain removed and to not use higher aspects of my Self to help myself. I had to be here in all ways as a human and to find my way out of the problems of life, just as anyone else would.


--------------------
BREATHE IN LOVE
BREATHE OUT FORGIVENESS
(If you’re not in your breath, you’re in your mind)


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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: coulterIV]
    #7743733 - 12/11/07 02:17 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

hmm interesting thoughts. the way you describe it you say that we are puppets to our stimulus. a puppet would imply that we are not doing our actions.
i think what you mean is that we are slaves to our stimulus, meaning we act on what we experience. however i dont see in anyway how this negates the experience of living and means that we arent actually living. what does actually living mean? having free will to decide whether or not to do something?

yes you are right we are not able to get rid of the stimului from the outside, or get rid of our past which has a large part in determining our actions, however we still choose to act in various ways based on those stimuli.


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