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OfflinementalIMAGE
21st Century Schizoid Man
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A Trippy Thought..
    #7736563 - 12/09/07 01:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

So, I was reading the line my signature, and began thinking about what Kesey meant. What was the message he was trying to get across?

So I thought.. and, if our actions are just a reaction to the moment that has just occurred, we aren't actually living. We're just puppets to the stimulus around us, reacting in random and different ways every time. Sure, we have the freedom of choice to choose how to react, but ultimately we're still stimulus' bitch.

Will there ever be a time where we are the stimulus to all that is around us? Perhaps the 5th dimension? I don't want to think about that yet.. let me get my smoke tool quick.


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We are always acting on what has just finished happening. It happened at least 1/30th of a second ago. We think we're in the present, but we aren't. The present we know is only a movie of the past.
Ken Kesey


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InvisibleBirdsIView
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: mentalIMAGE]
    #7736587 - 12/09/07 01:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

In the end, we don't decide a single thing. We only react to the things around us based on our genetic make-up. While incredibly complicated, this leads me to believe that it is possible to map out all of history and the future.


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OfflinementalIMAGE
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: BirdsIView]
    #7736684 - 12/09/07 01:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Nice point :wink:


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We are always acting on what has just finished happening. It happened at least 1/30th of a second ago. We think we're in the present, but we aren't. The present we know is only a movie of the past.
Ken Kesey


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OfflineJustice_Fish
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: mentalIMAGE]
    #7736691 - 12/09/07 01:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I don't know who pointed the thought that we don't live, we just remember, but that's how I think life is. We remember our life.


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Offlineshwrestler
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: Justice_Fish]
    #7737041 - 12/09/07 03:03 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

wow thats cool to think about it..im definatley going to think about that on my next shroom trip


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no needles, no rocks..i trip


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Offlineexit
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: shwrestler]
    #7737063 - 12/09/07 03:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The determinist view that all of our actions -effects- are influenced solely by causes, and under the circumstances we are unable to act differently. Cause and effect. The illusion of free will.If we were determined than surely we shouldnt be held morally responsible for our actions.

I'd have to disagree. It's easy to argue for the determinist view however each and every single day you make choices. They are not an illusion, a good ammount are influenced by the past, however you still have room for freedom and spontaneous action.


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You keep looking but you can't find the woods, while you're hiding in the trees..


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Offlinekcobra15
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: exit]
    #7737317 - 12/09/07 04:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I believe that Kesey quote is quite similar to the buhddist philosophy of "dependent origination". Check it out.


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Om Gam Ganapataye Namah


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OfflineAlCapwn
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: exit]
    #7737349 - 12/09/07 04:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Moral responsibility is a major factor in determinism, and eliminating it would still be a retarded idea.

Spontaneity could be a product of your environment also. Take these two scenarios. They are both identical in every way. You put a person in a situation. You put his doppelganger in the identical situation. When the scenario starts, both people have lived 100% identical lives. At that moment they have the exact same thought in their head. Given how associative memory works, would those two people come to the same conclusion of what to do next even if that thing was totally spontaneous and otherwise unpredictable?


--------------------
Huuuuurrrrrr!


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: AlCapwn]
    #7737465 - 12/09/07 05:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

If you follow the train of thought backwards from this idea, all the way to the big bang concept, would the entire history of the universe not be based on one fraction of a second catalyst?

Was the future determined, whether by some being or just natural laws, from the beginning of existence?


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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OfflineAlCapwn
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: g00ru]
    #7737493 - 12/09/07 05:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Existence is too absurd, I wouldn't know. I'm just talking about human determinism.


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Huuuuurrrrrr!


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Offlinestevo15
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: g00ru]
    #7737496 - 12/09/07 05:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

that is some intense thinking.... my head hurts


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Offlineexit
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: stevo15]
    #7737801 - 12/09/07 06:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

In that scenerio, the answer would depend on the choice the individuals have make. If it's something insignificant like a choice inbetween using one of several pencils, the two would most likely choose different pencils. However, if it is a concious decision on something important, the two will act in the same way? why? because they have had the exact same experiences and have made the exact same choices in the past, obstructing them from any other choice. I am the soft determinist.


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You keep looking but you can't find the woods, while you're hiding in the trees..


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OfflineKapitoshka
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: exit]
    #7737910 - 12/09/07 07:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Well, instead of being a victim of these impulses, why not go against them? Specifically and methodically contradicting them each time they pop into attention? Great practice.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: Kapitoshka]
    #7737913 - 12/09/07 07:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kapitoshka said:
Well, instead of being a victim of these impulses, why not go against them? Specifically and methodically contradicting them each time they pop into attention? Great practice.




That doesn't solve anything. Either way, you are acting in reaction to the impulses, so the theory still stands.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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OfflineKapitoshka
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: g00ru]
    #7737947 - 12/09/07 07:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
That doesn't solve anything. Either way, you are acting in reaction to the impulses, so the theory still stands.




That is not true. To act in reaction to an impulse is to act without a thought, just going with the flow. Manipulating reactions to impulses gives freedom over things most people consider unalterable.


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OfflineAlCapwn
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: Kapitoshka]
    #7737980 - 12/09/07 07:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, but impulse is never truly pure. To be impulsive, you have to decide to be impulsive. And if you have to decide to be impulsive, you have to think of what impulsive is. This means that the notion of impulsiveness may vary from person to person based on their experiences and you'll never really be truly impulsive, only seemingly. Unless you can make a body function without a brain, no one will ever really be 100% impulsive.


--------------------
Huuuuurrrrrr!


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InvisibleInfested
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: g00ru]
    #7737992 - 12/09/07 07:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
That doesn't solve anything. Either way, you are acting in reaction to the impulses, so the theory still stands.




You are aware of the situation that mijority of people are in. And you just fall for it. Controlling your reaction (or going against it)is possible. This is actually the only way you can alter "fate".

The theory doesn't stand still, the theory has a huge hole in it.


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OfflineAlCapwn
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: Infested]
    #7738002 - 12/09/07 07:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Prove to me that controlling your reaction or going against it cannot be the result of fate at work whatsoever.


--------------------
Huuuuurrrrrr!


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InvisibleInfested
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: AlCapwn]
    #7738033 - 12/09/07 08:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

AlCapwn said:
Yes, but impulse is never truly pure. To be impulsive, you have to decide to be impulsive. And if you have to decide to be impulsive, you have to think of what impulsive is. This means that the notion of impulsiveness may vary from person to person based on their experiences and you'll never really be truly impulsive, only seemingly. Unless you can make a body function without a brain, no one will ever really be 100% impulsive.




Its not an impulse its a decision. Impulse is still following the system. You need to shift back and look at it from even more different perspective. Everything we do is an impulse. But one is able to go against these impulses and instead make different reaction based on the decision you make to the stimuli.

And instead of calling it impulsiveness put it in terms of higher states of awareness. Yes its hard to be 100% but thats what some are trying to reach, instead of not trying at all... Even 1% can change your life.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: A Trippy Thought.. [Re: Infested]
    #7738072 - 12/09/07 08:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think you guys understand. If i am understanding this thread, people are talking about how your 'fate' is predetermined based on events already transpired.

Lemme give an example: You can either pick up a pencil or leave it on the table. Impulse says to pick it up. You refute this impulse and leave it on the table, perhaps because you want to prove the theory of determinism incorrect, or for any other reason. Either way, your choice is based on prior events and information. Now heres the question: was the option of you picking up the pencil even possible? You would think yes, but it never happened and never will happen, so by that logic is there not only one possible course of action our lives will ever take?

This might sound crazy but the only way I can see around it is the concept of parallel universes, where every conceivable choice is in some universe chosen and is therefore theoretically possible.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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