Home | Community | Message Board

Magic-Mushrooms-Shop.com
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7  [ show all ]
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger
Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain
    #7735835 - 12/09/07 09:30 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

John McCain goes after Ron Paul with a friggin' crowbar, saying his isolationist attitude is the sort of thing that allowed Hitler to come to power. Says the Thanksgiving message he got from the troops was, "let us win." Wild applause, some boos.

Paul cites his donations from active-duty servicemen, says there's a difference between isolationism and non-interventionism.


http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MjFlMWExYWIxYzg2MWI1NDU1N2U3NWI2Yzc2OWZlNWM=

I must have I have to agree with McCain's assesment. The fact is Ron Paul is making the classic mistake the US after losing world war 1, namely calling for a retreat into itself, while ignoring real threats like Iran and Al Qaeda. Remember we did the same thing with Hitler and Stalin after our military ventures in the First World War.

Also one must wonder what "non-interventionism" is, besides a category arbitrarily invented for sake of political conveniance.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSoY
I am the LizardKing
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7735849 - 12/09/07 09:33 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Iran and Al Qaeda are not even in the same ball park as Hitler and Stalin. They pose minimal threat to our national security. Al Qaeda would pose even less of a threat if we beefed up our home defenses like Paul is advocating.


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger
Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
    #7735870 - 12/09/07 09:41 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Iran and Al Qaeda are not even in the same ball park as Hitler and Stalin.




Not yet, but bear in mind that Hitler started as a small fry in Nazi Germany as well. Indeed we stood by idly as he annexed several countries, and didn't respond until he invaded Poland-by which time it was too late.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSoY
I am the LizardKing
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
    #7735886 - 12/09/07 09:45 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Hitler and Stalin were megalomaniacs in positions of great power, with great resources and no checks and balances, not a bunch of radical religious thugs.

You must also keep in mind how America appears to the rest of the world. You have to realize that our actions around the globe have cast a negative light upon us. We are viewed as a hypocritical, imperialistic rouge state with a tremendous amount of resources and firepower. We have been tolerated so far because we seemingly use our power in a benevolent manner to aid others. But, our reputation is crumbling and our internal stability is deteriorating as well. America is pushing its luck with its citizens and with the rest of the world. At this pace, I believe it's only a matter of time before everyone becomes irate with us...[/rant]


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSoY
I am the LizardKing
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
    #7735891 - 12/09/07 09:48 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

by which time it was too late




I beg to differ.  Hitler is dead and the Allies won WWII.  Not too late.

Also, we stood idly by because we were not prepared to enter the war.  We had our thumbs up our butts because of FDR and the poor military budget.


**yes it was too late for these guys....  :lolocaust:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


Edited by SoY (12/09/07 09:49 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
    #7735916 - 12/09/07 09:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Quote:

by which time it was too late




I beg to differ. Hitler is dead and the Allies won WWII. Not too late.





After millions of people died. Including six million Jews in Europe.

And also after the Soviet Union invaded and occupied all of Eastern Europe.

You may as well say we are not too late catching someone who is a serial killer-even if they showed warning signs when young (like torturing smaller animals)-after they kill a dozen or so children.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSoY
I am the LizardKing
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7735944 - 12/09/07 10:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Dude, I don't know if you're familiar with your U.S. history, but we were unable to get into it right away.


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSoY
I am the LizardKing
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
    #7735947 - 12/09/07 10:11 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Under your definition of *too late* we shouldn't even bother with places like Darfur, because even if we intervened, it will still be *too late*...


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
    #7735957 - 12/09/07 10:14 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Dude, I don't know if you're familiar with your U.S. history, but we were unable to get into it right away.




And why is that exactly? At that time Germany was nothing-it was in the middle of a depression, and its army was barely starting to build up (keep in mind Germany wasn't even technically allowed to have an army after the Versailles Treaty). We could have squashed Germany like the pipsqueak it was easily. We simply chose not to due to the cowardice of our politicians.

Though one cannot blame them entirely, as the people were also over-reacting to the amount of soldiers we lost in World War 1.

Just like we do the Iraq War today--seeing as we technically lose more people in the military due to driving accidents then we have in the war.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSoY
I am the LizardKing
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
    #7735961 - 12/09/07 10:16 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

A strong international security force is required to prevent such atrocities from occurring. The only problem is that either such a force would be mismanaged and impotent (*cough*UN*cough*) or it would be used in a greedy, evil way.

As Jimi said, "when the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Yeah, we're definitely not there yet.


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7735964 - 12/09/07 10:16 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I think Vietnam is a much more appropriate allegory, and so do most of the experts who've studied this war.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSoY
I am the LizardKing
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
    #7735966 - 12/09/07 10:18 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yes I agree with you that we should have held them to the Versailles Treaty and possibly prevented it then.

But it needed to be a coalition of the Allies putting their thumb down, not just America. The entire fucking world needs to grow up and not let these evil people do what they please.


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


Edited by SoY (12/09/07 10:21 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
    #7735977 - 12/09/07 10:20 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
A strong international security force is required to prevent such atrocities from occurring.




The US and NATO are such a strong force. And if you think we mismanage things try vacationing in Iran. Then you can see what tyranny is really like.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSoY
I am the LizardKing
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7735979 - 12/09/07 10:21 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Why have you been to Iran?


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Silversoul]
    #7735989 - 12/09/07 10:23 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I think Vietnam is a much more appropriate allegory, and so do most of the experts who've studied this war.




Keep in mind after we lost Vietnam millions of Vietnamese were executed by the communist party. I hope the protestors were happy about that. In any event we lost Vietnam because of people playing politics.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSoY
I am the LizardKing
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
    #7736000 - 12/09/07 10:27 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

No one (yes I mean the U.S.) does shit about all the dictators and human rights violators around the world (some of them are even our allies). How is your security force effective?

-Sudan
-Burma
-Zimbabwe
-Turkmenistan
-Eq. Guinea
-N. Korea
-Saudi Arabia
-Libya
-Pakistan


...to name a few bass-ackward countries


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


Edited by SoY (12/09/07 10:33 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSoY
I am the LizardKing
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736005 - 12/09/07 10:29 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

How was Vietnam ours to worry about? Oh dear it's the Red Threat! We are all going to become communist and die!!!


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSoY
I am the LizardKing
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
    #7736008 - 12/09/07 10:30 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either we need to crack down on all these thugs, or just back off and let nature fix itself. I'm for the enforcement of decency. We claim to be the champions of freedom and democracy, but only when it benefits us. And then we try not to think about the collateral damage.


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


Edited by SoY (12/09/07 10:32 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
    #7736026 - 12/09/07 10:35 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

That is because people in the United States are selfish and do not adhere to their duty. They are also racist in the sense that we consider the lives of people here more important then elsewhere.

Keep in mind that the US military is the single most powerful secular force in the world. And keep in mind how many countries we have been able to save when we put our efforts into it.

We saved Japan. We saved Russia. We saved Europe from the Nazis. We saved Afghanistan from the Soviet Union (only to have them betray us). We saved ourselves from the Brits. We saved the entire Western Hemisphere from European royalty via the Monroe Doctrine. And we saved the Philipines from the Spainish Empire.

We even saved South Korea from the Communists. Indeed, if you want to see our success, just compare South Korea to North Korea. The difference is as stark as night and day. South Korea is 28 times wealthier, it has far more political freedom, and it's people are not utterly enslaved by a psycopathic madman who threatens to turn the entire country to glass in an nuclear exchanfe. Nearly 5 million children have starved to death in North Korea-vs. South Korea which has one of the best educational systems in the world. Wherever we intervene we make things better.

We defeated both the Communist and Fascist empires, and now we face Muslim theocracy. Do not be lulled into the false comforts offered by the short-sighted. Going pure free market may help us in the short-term, but the military exists for a reason, and that reason is that not everyone respects reason and plays by the rules. Those people are already plotting against us, and mark my words they will one day acquire nukes and attack us.

I may like being rich, but you can't spend the money if you're dead.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736032 - 12/09/07 10:37 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
I think Vietnam is a much more appropriate allegory, and so do most of the experts who've studied this war.




Keep in mind after we lost Vietnam millions of Vietnamese were executed by the communist party. I hope the protestors were happy about that. In any event we lost Vietnam because of people playing politics.



And yet today, we have open trade with Vietnam, which is becoming more capitalist. Proof that trade beats war.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
    #7736033 - 12/09/07 10:37 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
How was Vietnam ours to worry about?




Because the communists were going to spread. They spread into 'Nam, China, North Korea, and Eastern Europe. They even tried to invade Afghanistan.

Marxism by definition is a missionary belief system. Under Marxism people have to spread communism in order to defeat capitalism. Anyone who thinks otherwise simply doesn't know their history.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736047 - 12/09/07 10:41 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Where did Communism spread from Vietnam?

It seems to me the one thing they did after that was have a conflict with Cambodia in which they deposed Pol Pot.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSoY
I am the LizardKing
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736050 - 12/09/07 10:41 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with some of what you're saying. But my point is that there are many places which we need to be *saving* and are not even talking about. It's a global evolution thing. The U.S. and all our allies (pussies that they are) need to stand up for human rights and democracy and make Earth a nice place to vacation. We pretend that our only goal is to propagate freedom, yet we do nothing in the places that need us the most...


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736057 - 12/09/07 10:43 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Where did Communism spread from Vietnam?





Cambodia. The Vietnamese took over Cambodia from the Khmer Rouge.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSoY
I am the LizardKing
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736061 - 12/09/07 10:45 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah.  That fucked up America for sure.  :rolleyes:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736086 - 12/09/07 10:48 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Then you should vote for the guy who made the most ignorant statement of this election cycle, if you think he was on it.

Comparing that to this is like comparing orange soda to mink fur. Not even in the same ball park.

Islamic extremists do not like our setting up Military bases in their countries. They see it as an occupation. They do not like us installing puppet governments in their countries. They do not like our western government, influencing their leaders.

Intervening in the internal affairs of other nations, and "occupying" them, is the sort of interventionism that has spawned hate and anger in Islamic extremists. In this case, interventionism is what caused the problem.

You're not going to solve it by adding more fuel to the fire.

Al Queda is not a country. It's a rogue group of individuals, acting Independently spread around the world.

Ron Paul wants special forces going after them specifically and individually. Ron Paul supported going after al Queda in Afghanistan. he still wants us going after Bin laden, who is now hiding out in Pakistan. Why are we not doing that?

McCain used an emotionally charged word " Hitler" just like Giuliani uses the emotionally charged word 9/11 a lot, to get people to move into a highly charged emotional and irrational state, so it's easier for them to go along with whatever is being said.

Al Quedas numbers were in the hundreds before we went into Iraq. Our continued interventionist foreign policy has now created tens of thousands of them.

The current administration is acting like neo isolationists right before our eyes and nobody says a word. There are leaders we will not negotiate/talk with, we have trade sanctions put on them, and this is the sort of stuff that cuts us off from the rest of the world.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
    #7736093 - 12/09/07 10:51 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Yeah.  That fucked up America for sure.  :rolleyes:




Regardless of if it fucked up American millions of people in Cambodia and Vietnam lost their lives, and millions more live under totalitarian rule to this day.

And if you don't think their problems will ever effect us you are only thinking in the short-term. Look at North Korea-they are trying to acquire long-range nukes. And when the technology gets cheap enough Vietnam will do the same. We can't contain nuclear power forever. And mark my words the day the commies in 'Nam acquire ICBMs they will demand tribute to preserve their otherwise failing economies. Do you think for a moment the leaders their would hesitate to use their military force to preserve their positions of power?

Seeing as their deaths at the hands of an angry mob would come the moment they fell from their party positions I do not doubt it for a moment.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736108 - 12/09/07 10:55 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Where did Communism spread from Vietnam?





Cambodia. The Vietnamese took over Cambodia from the Khmer Rouge.



Cambodia was already socialist. And if you're here to defend the Khmer Rouge, well, that's just fucked up.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736137 - 12/09/07 11:04 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Where did Communism spread from Vietnam?





Cambodia. The Vietnamese took over Cambodia from the Khmer Rouge.



Cambodia was already socialist. And if you're here to defend the Khmer Rouge, well, that's just fucked up.




I am not defending the Khmer Rouge, I am simply noting how Communism is expansionist. The fact is the Vietnamese invaded Cambodia, and if given half a chance would have tried to invade every other country on earth.

Just like the Soviet Union invaded Eastern Europe, and tried to invade Afghanistan.

If you honestly believe the higher ups in those commie countries don't want to invade and enslave more people, you are 100% naive. Every chance they get they invade others, and they don't care how many lives they have to throw away.

This is completely different from the US which has the power to invade every other country on earth and chooses not to.


Edited by Paleocon (12/09/07 11:05 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736171 - 12/09/07 11:14 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

you are 100% naive



Ironic statement of the year?

Quote:

This is completely different from the US which has the power to invade every other country on earth and chooses not to.



:rofl2:

Have you taken a good look at just how much of our resources we're losing on Iraq?  Do you honestly think we could invade China tomorrow and win?  The US is just as imperialist and expansionist as the Soviet Union, and we've continued to be that way long after their collapse.

Also, the Vietnamese conflict with Cambodia was over a border dispute.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736193 - 12/09/07 11:20 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Have you taken a good look at just how much of our resources we're losing on Iraq?




You don't go into a war over resources. If we went into Iraq to profit that would be stealing, and believe it or not, stealing is wrong.

And a lot of that loss is because our NATO allies are not helping us. Not only that, but we have people in our own country trying to sabotage the war effort.

And the only reason they do so is because they think an American's life is worth more then an Iraqis. Not only that, but they also think it is impossible that some day Al Qaeda will be at our door step with a nuclear bomb.


Quote:

Silversoul said:Do you honestly think we could invade China tomorrow and win?




Not tomorrow, but if we fully committed to it, and planned it well you bet your ass we would win. We could sink their subs, and bunker bust their underground ICBMs. And what could China do then?


Quote:

Silversoul said:The US is just as imperialist and expansionist as the Soviet Union, and we've continued to be that way long after their collapse.





Bull. If that was true, we could have invaded Europe and Canada a long time ago.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSoY
I am the LizardKing
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736194 - 12/09/07 11:20 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Have you taken a good look at just how much of our resources we're losing on Iraq? Do you honestly think we could invade China tomorrow and win? The US is just as imperialist and expansionist as the Soviet Union, and we've continued to be that way long after their collapse.




And if we continue at this pace we too will eventually collapse. :shrug:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSoY
I am the LizardKing
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
    #7736198 - 12/09/07 11:22 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
You don't go into a war over resources.




:what:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
    #7736213 - 12/09/07 11:25 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Quote:

Have you taken a good look at just how much of our resources we're losing on Iraq? Do you honestly think we could invade China tomorrow and win? The US is just as imperialist and expansionist as the Soviet Union, and we've continued to be that way long after their collapse.




And if we continue at this pace we too will eventually collapse. :shrug:




Only because of our inflated social security budget.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
    #7736217 - 12/09/07 11:26 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Quote:

Paleocon said:
You don't go into a war over resources.




:what:




Let me make the obvious more explicit- you aren't supposed to go into war over resources. I'm sorry, but when I was younger I was taught stealing was wrong. Maybe your parents raised you differently.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736224 - 12/09/07 11:29 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

You don't go into a war over resources. If we went into Iraq to profit that would be stealing, and believe it or not, stealing is wrong.



Way to completely miss the point of my statement.  I'm not talking about stealing resources.  I'm talking about how much of our budget we're pouring into this quagmire.

Quote:

And a lot of that loss is because our NATO allies are not helping us. Not only that, but we have people in our own country trying to sabotage the war effort.



If by "sabotage" you mean bring our troops home safe, then guilty as charged.  But that really has nothing to do with all the resources we're wasting on this war.

Quote:

And the only reason they do so is because they think an American's life is worth more then an Iraqis.



Really?  And that's why we want to stop killing Iraqis?

Quote:

Not only that, but they also think it is impossible that some day Al Qaeda will be at our door step with a nuclear bomb.



Seems irrelevant to this case, since Al Qaeda is not based in Iraq, nor does Iraq have nuclear weapons.

Quote:

Not tomorrow, but if we fully committed to it, and planned it well you bet your ass we would win. We could sink their subs, and bunker bust their underground ICBMs. And what could China do then?



Invade us with their massive army?

Quote:

Bull. If that was true, we could have invaded Europe and Canada a long time ago.



:banghead:

Is it seriously possible to be stupid?  By your logic, the Soviet Union would have invaded China long ago.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736234 - 12/09/07 11:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Way to completely miss the point of my statement. I'm not talking about stealing resources. I'm talking about how much of our budget we're pouring into this quagmire.




It is only a quagmire because we aren't putting our full effort into it. Do you honestly think if we committed to winning that we would lose in Iraq? Do you honestly think a nation which beat Japan and Nazi Germany would lose to some tiny third world country?

If we are losing the war it is because we choose to, nothing more.

Quote:

Silversoul said:Is it seriously possible to be stupid? By your logic, the Soviet Union would have invaded China long ago.




Stalin and Mao hated eachother. And the Soviet Union did try to control China. Do you not know your history?

I'm not surprised seeing the state of our public school systems, but in case you didn't know Russia did help the Chinese overthrow the Nationalist government, and Russia did try to control policy in China. They couldn't because Mao was just as ruthless as Stalin and used China's sheer numbers to deter the red giant, but believe me either would have taken the other if they were able.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736245 - 12/09/07 11:38 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

It is only a quagmire because we aren't putting our full effort into it. Do you honestly think if we committed to winning that we would lose in Iraq? Do you honestly think a nation which beat Japan and Nazi Germany would lose to some tiny third world country?

If we are losing the war it is because we choose to, nothing more.



We managed to depose Saddam. Winning against an army is easy for us. Winning against an insurgency...well, that's a bit like Britain's situation in the American Revolution.

Quote:

Stalin and Mao hated eachother. And the Soviet Union did try to control China. Do you not know your history?



I'm aware of that. Control is not invasion. If it were, then your statement about Canada is null and void, as we do try to control them.

Quote:

I'm not surprised seeing the state of our public school systems



I went to private school.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSoY
I am the LizardKing
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736249 - 12/09/07 11:38 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SoY said:

   
Quote:


    Paleocon said:
   
You don't go into a war over resources.






:what:





Almost every single war in history has been fought over resources and/or territory.  Man I am starting to wonder where you received your history/social studies education..... :nonono:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736265 - 12/09/07 11:44 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
We managed to depose Saddam. Winning against an army is easy for us. Winning against an insurgency...well, that's a bit like Britain's situation in the American Revolution.




The Nazis had an insurgency as well. Ever heard of the Werewolves?

Here, read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf

We can beat a resistance force if we really commit to it. We did so before against what was-at one time-considered the most powerful and fanatical army on earth.

Quote:

Silversoul said:I'm aware of that. Control is not invasion. If it were, then your statement about Canada is null and void, as we do try to control them.




And why not? If america was so expansionist, like you say, why not invade Canada and turn them all into our slaves?

Every dictatorship in history invades other countries directly whenever it is able. The Nazis did it, the Japanese did it, the British did it, the Soviets did it, as did the Persians, the Romans, and the Spainish. That is itself proof of the fact that you can control a country directly, and whenever a real empire can it does so.



Quote:

Silversoul said:I went to private school.




Well then we are worse off then I thought.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736412 - 12/09/07 12:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

interventionism brought us Korea, Vietnam, Iraq (1), Iraq (2), and all those Latin America conflicts. isolationism did not cause WWII to happen it just delayed us entering the conflict. history classes, they help.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7736447 - 12/09/07 12:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Interventionism brought us none of those conflicts anymore then it brought us Adolf Hitler. Those conflicts were started by dictators and we responded to them.

Iraq 1 was statted by Saddam trying to invade Kuwait. Iraq 2 by Saddam's previous violation of UN regulations. Vietnam by the communists attempt to take over, and Korea by North Korea's attempted invasion of South Korea.

Stop scapegoating the US for trying to save other countries for invasion. That's like blaming the police for catching a thief, and saying that if the police and laws didn't exist there would have been no theft.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736505 - 12/09/07 12:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

however you slice it we were not involved in any of the conflicts i mentioned until we decided to become involved in them as part of an interventionist world police foreign policy. Hitler came to power because of a variety of cultural, WWI, great depression factors that had nothing to do with the U.S. foreign policy at the time. Remember we were in the great depression leading up to WWII.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7736516 - 12/09/07 12:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
however you slice it we were not involved in any of the conflicts i mentioned until we decided to become involved in them as part of an interventionist world police foreign policy.




So what? We would have eventually been involved sooner or later. Do you honestly think those dictators would be satisfied with their countries? If they were the sort fo care about matters like national rights they wouldn't be dictators to begin with.

All you are saying is we should stand back and watch them grow. That policy means we will only face a larger scale conflict later on.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736557 - 12/09/07 01:03 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:40 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7736571 - 12/09/07 01:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

We could have squashed Germany like the pipsqueak it was easily. We simply chose not to due to the cowardice of our politicians.




You should probably read & understand some more history before you make large, baseless assumptions. For starters: Who were the 4 Americans who received the highest award given to non-German civilians by the Nazi regime?




Totally irrelevant. Some Americans are immoral, that does not mean all Americans are immoral. That is the price of freedom-you allow some people to choose the wrong course of action.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736599 - 12/09/07 01:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:40 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736613 - 12/09/07 01:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:41 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7736620 - 12/09/07 01:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
No, it is not irrelevant. Do you know who they were & why the received the award they did?




It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if the US president back then was a hitler-lover, that wouldn't change the fact that the US as a whole decided to fight and defeat the Nazis.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7736623 - 12/09/07 01:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

Stalin and Mao hated each other... Do you not know your history?




It appears you are the one quite confused on history. Have you ever read anything Mao wrote about Stalin?




Mao wrote a lot of things he didn't really believe.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736635 - 12/09/07 01:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:41 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736641 - 12/09/07 01:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:41 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736653 - 12/09/07 01:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:41 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7736655 - 12/09/07 01:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

Keep in mind after we lost Vietnam millions of Vietnamese were executed by the communist party.




You have history quite confused, do you not? Vietnam was not Cambodia. Do you know who removed Pol Pot from power? I'll give you a hint... it was the Vietnamese National Liberation Front.




Yeah they replaced one form of totalitarianism with another. Nevermind that if we would have won there would have been no totalitarianism in either country.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736658 - 12/09/07 01:26 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

SlashOZ said:
however you slice it we were not involved in any of the conflicts i mentioned until we decided to become involved in them as part of an interventionist world police foreign policy.




So what? We would have eventually been involved sooner or later. Do you honestly think those dictators would be satisfied with their countries? If they were the sort fo care about matters like national rights they wouldn't be dictators to begin with.

All you are saying is we should stand back and watch them grow. That policy means we will only face a larger scale conflict later on.




what threat was Korea or Vietnam to the U.S.? WWII is not our fault. that is just the worst argument i have ever heard. Communist Vietnam didn't attack the U.S. after we pulled out.

in the name of interventism this is what we have also accomplished: Saddam never attacked or threatened the U.S. in fact we gave him money and weapons to fight Iran during their war with each other. We also trained and gave weapons to al qaeda during the 1980's. We sold weapons to our now enemy Iran and then gave the money to anti communists in Latin America in the 1980's which is why we face such heavy illegal immigration today.

you are just sooooo wrong. apply to a community college near you and take a history class or two. lol


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


Edited by SlashOZ (12/09/07 01:32 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7736662 - 12/09/07 01:26 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if the US president back then was a hitler-lover, that wouldn't change the fact that the US as a whole decided to fight and defeat the Nazis.




Who said anything about a U.S. president? You have no idea who they (the 4 individuals... 3 of them, anyways) were or why they were awarded, do you?




I said it doesn't matter even IF it was the US president. The US still fought and defeated Nazi Germany.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736669 - 12/09/07 01:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:42 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736676 - 12/09/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:42 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7736679 - 12/09/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

Yeah they replaced one form of totalitarianism with another. Nevermind that if we would have won there would have been no totalitarianism in either country.




You are simply delusional. Has it ever crossed your mind that another group of people somewhere else in the world might not equate colonialism & imperialism with "liberty" & "democracy"?






There are people in the US who don't like the concepts of liberty and democracy. There are KKK members who think we should bring back slavery. Should we just get rid of the police and let them run rampant, or do you sometimes have to impose laws on people that they may not necessarily agree with?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736701 - 12/09/07 01:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:42 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736730 - 12/09/07 01:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:43 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7736784 - 12/09/07 01:58 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Another history lesson... which nation suffered the most causalities (both civilian & military) as a result of Nazi militarism, & which nation inflicted the most casualties on Nazi soldiers, & which nation handed the Nazi regime its first military loss, & where did the bulk of the military fighting (and hence casualties) in WWII occur?




Stalin killed tens of millions of his own people.

And to answer your question, the nation that suffered the most was Germany itself. That is, unless you think the Nazis and their war was good for Germany. I happen to believe that the third reich harmed the Germans more then anyone.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineandrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7736824 - 12/09/07 02:07 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Perhaps it was overzealous League of Nations sanctions on Germany after WWI that were largely unfair and ridiculous that fueled the nazi parties ability to get the masses favor. Perhaps it was that which fueled much of the problem. I think equating WWI/WWII to the Iraq war is pretty funny.

There is no doubt our actions in the world have a reaction. I sympathize with the least amount of action in the world now, unless we would commit totally. I like the idea of US military sovereignty (Somalia comes to mind). The post soviet world just cant require the amount of paranoia that the people in power seem to try to inspire. Surely 9/11 was bad, surely we need to assert ourselves... I do not think we should be isolated. We have non-conventional means that we can wield against the non-conventional terrorists. We should pick our battles wisely. I do like how McCain calls Bush out on being a bit soft with his policies. If we are REALLY engaging in all out war lets do it that way. Otherwise, I wish the leadership would refrain from using conventional military and trying to setup nations.


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: andrewss]
    #7736844 - 12/09/07 02:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

andrewss said:
Perhaps it was overzealous League of Nations sanctions on Germany after WWI that were largely unfair and ridiculous that fueled the nazi parties ability to get the masses favor. Perhaps it was that which fueled much of the problem. I think equating WWI/WWII to the Iraq war is pretty funny.




Regardless of the causes Hitler could have been stopped if we had not taken an isolationist stance. It was our being overly-cautious after world war 1 that lead to his rise.


If Ron Paul had been president, he'd have advocated ignoring Hitler, just like the establishment did back then. So McCain is technically correct when he says Ron Paul's policies, had they been in place during the 1930-1940s would have helped Hitler.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736853 - 12/09/07 02:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:43 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMinstrel
Man of Science
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736861 - 12/09/07 02:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

John McCain goes after Ron Paul with a friggin' crowbar, saying his isolationist attitude is the sort of thing that allowed Hitler to come to power. Says the Thanksgiving message he got from the troops was, "let us win." Wild applause, some boos.

Paul cites his donations from active-duty servicemen, says there's a difference between isolationism and non-interventionism.


http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MjFlMWExYWIxYzg2MWI1NDU1N2U3NWI2Yzc2OWZlNWM=

I must have I have to agree with McCain's assesment. The fact is Ron Paul is making the classic mistake the US after losing world war 1, namely calling for a retreat into itself, while ignoring real threats like Iran and Al Qaeda. Remember we did the same thing with Hitler and Stalin after our military ventures in the First World War.

Also one must wonder what "non-interventionism" is, besides a category arbitrarily invented for sake of political conveniance.




Hitler's rise to power was allowed to happen by the German people. He hijacked the government and brainwashed the people, with a policy of war and protection from unseen threats.

To blame Hitler's rise on non-intervention of foreign states, likened to a gas-station hold up, would be like the clerk getting heisted blaming other patrons of the store for not stopping the robbery.

People like you supporting this agenda of death and control are the reasons people like Hitler come to power.

Take your propaganda elsewhere Neocon, we all see right though it.


--------------------


Edited by Minstrel (12/09/07 02:20 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736870 - 12/09/07 02:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:43 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineandrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736888 - 12/09/07 02:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

andrewss said:
Perhaps it was overzealous League of Nations sanctions on Germany after WWI that were largely unfair and ridiculous that fueled the nazi parties ability to get the masses favor. Perhaps it was that which fueled much of the problem. I think equating WWI/WWII to the Iraq war is pretty funny.




Regardless of the causes Hitler could have been stopped if we had not taken an isolationist stance. It was our being overly-cautious after world war 1 that lead to his rise.


If Ron Paul had been president, he'd have advocated ignoring Hitler, just like the establishment did back then. So McCain is technically correct when he says Ron Paul's policies, had they been in place during the 1930-1940s would have helped Hitler.




So what would you wanted us to do? Occupy Germany after WWI and make sure we don't see anything bad happening? I would assume that there were spies that were seeing what was happening. Yeah isolationism "allowed" Hitler to come to power in a very arbitrary sense. How is this even relevant at all to Iraq? Haven't we found that Saddam didn't even have much of anything to be concerned about? Even then this is the 21st century, not 1920.... I think we can protect ourselves well. Setting up nations seems to get you into quagmires easily, usually a public doesnt like to see soldiers die for a less than 100% obviously necessary military action. Shit happens, I think we need to choose our battles wisely. Did not Cheney himself talk about why we DIDNT go into Iraq after the first gulf war, oh yeah because he kinda agreed... I wonder what changed his mind?


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7736892 - 12/09/07 02:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
No, you didn't answer the question. But nevertheless the initial argument that Ron Paul's policies would have helped the Nazis is stupid. If the U.S. had stayed out of WWII completely... the Nazis still would've lost.





Actually no. The US even before D-Day had to supply the USSR with arms, supplies and munitions to avoid having them taken out earlier in the war.


Edited by Paleocon (12/09/07 02:25 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Minstrel]
    #7736906 - 12/09/07 02:28 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Minstrel said:
Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

John McCain goes after Ron Paul with a friggin' crowbar, saying his isolationist attitude is the sort of thing that allowed Hitler to come to power. Says the Thanksgiving message he got from the troops was, "let us win." Wild applause, some boos.

Paul cites his donations from active-duty servicemen, says there's a difference between isolationism and non-interventionism.


http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MjFlMWExYWIxYzg2MWI1NDU1N2U3NWI2Yzc2OWZlNWM=

I must have I have to agree with McCain's assesment. The fact is Ron Paul is making the classic mistake the US after losing world war 1, namely calling for a retreat into itself, while ignoring real threats like Iran and Al Qaeda. Remember we did the same thing with Hitler and Stalin after our military ventures in the First World War.

Also one must wonder what "non-interventionism" is, besides a category arbitrarily invented for sake of political conveniance.




Hitler's rise to power was allowed to happen by the German people. He hijacked the government and brainwashed the people, with a policy of war and protection from unseen threats.

To blame Hitler's rise on non-intervention of foreign states, likened to a gas-station hold up, would be like the clerk getting heisted blaming other patrons of the store for not stopping the robbery.





It is true that Hitler's rise was allowed by the German people, but our isolationist policies didn't help. Even if the German's allowed him to rise, we could have stopped him.

We could have stopped him when he broke the Versailles Treaty and reformed the German army. Or when he annexed Austria. Or when he annexed Czechoslavakia. It was our ignoring Hitler's obvious expansionistic actions which created a larger problem later on.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: andrewss]
    #7736913 - 12/09/07 02:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

andrewss said:
Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

andrewss said:
Perhaps it was overzealous League of Nations sanctions on Germany after WWI that were largely unfair and ridiculous that fueled the nazi parties ability to get the masses favor. Perhaps it was that which fueled much of the problem. I think equating WWI/WWII to the Iraq war is pretty funny.




Regardless of the causes Hitler could have been stopped if we had not taken an isolationist stance. It was our being overly-cautious after world war 1 that lead to his rise.


If Ron Paul had been president, he'd have advocated ignoring Hitler, just like the establishment did back then. So McCain is technically correct when he says Ron Paul's policies, had they been in place during the 1930-1940s would have helped Hitler.




So what would you wanted us to do? Occupy Germany after WWI and make sure we don't see anything bad happening? I would assume that there were spies that were seeing what was happening.




We ended up occupying Germany anyways.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMinstrel
Man of Science
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736929 - 12/09/07 02:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

So, Neocon, if I were to be following your ideology, that it is my duty to prevent the rise of evil in other sovereign countries, America would be first on the list to topple.

America should have been stopped after they usurped Afghanistan, or before hijacked Iraq, and certainly before they go after Iran. Not to mention murdering countless democratically elected leaders in South America to install despots. This list of atrocities goes on.

Take a good long look in the mirror.

You should listen to Ron Paul's statement that America needs to consider how their policy would look if it were being done to them by other states. You need to understand why America is globally loathed.


--------------------


Edited by Minstrel (12/09/07 02:37 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePaleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Minstrel]
    #7736953 - 12/09/07 02:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Minstrel said:
So, Neocon, if I were to be following your ideology, that it is my duty to prevent the rise of evil in other sovereign countries, America would be first on the list to topple.




Try criticizing your country in the US vs. criticizing your country in China.

In America you can make change by peaceful reform. In China, any attempt at peaceful reform will be met with violent execution. The difference then is whether peaceful reform is possible or not. And the only justification for violence, then, is to the point where non-violent reform then becomes a possibility for the people living in the system.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMinstrel
Man of Science
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736970 - 12/09/07 02:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

Minstrel said:
So, Neocon, if I were to be following your ideology, that it is my duty to prevent the rise of evil in other sovereign countries, America would be first on the list to topple.




Try criticizing your country in the US vs. criticizing your country in China.

In America you can make change by peaceful reform. In China, any attempt at peaceful reform will be met with violent execution. The difference then is whether peaceful reform is possible or not. And the only justification for violence, then, is to the point where non-violent reform then becomes a possibility for the people living in the system.




Maybe, but there are no illusions of China being benevolent and diplomatic.

Nothing compares to the hypocrisy which Amerika is pulling world wide.


--------------------


Edited by Minstrel (12/09/07 02:43 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7737030 - 12/09/07 02:58 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

Minstrel said:
So, Neocon, if I were to be following your ideology, that it is my duty to prevent the rise of evil in other sovereign countries, America would be first on the list to topple.




Try criticizing your country in the US vs. criticizing your country in China.

In America you can make change by peaceful reform. In China, any attempt at peaceful reform will be met with violent execution.



Believe it or not, people in China are allowed to criticize the government on some issues. It may not be as free as it is here in America, but it's not like North Korea either. Get this: they even have elections where candidates debate the issues. People even can sue their government.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7737076 - 12/09/07 03:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:44 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7737087 - 12/09/07 03:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:44 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7737142 - 12/09/07 03:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The U.S. government under the leadership of FDR (who was hated by many leading U.S. industrialists at the time) wouldn't have needed to supply such enormous amounts of military supplies to the Allied Powers had Ford & GM not built such impressive, advanced & efficient military equipment for the Nazis to overtake so much of Europe so quickly.




No matter how many times I read this, it comes out as Nazis using Ford and General Motors vehicles to conquer Europe. I know that can't possibly be what you are trying to say, but I can't figure out just what you are trying to say. Can you rephrase, please?



Phred


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
 User Gallery


Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Phred]
    #7737158 - 12/09/07 03:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Heh.

That is pretty much what it says.

Thats an amusing little theory.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
    #7737273 - 12/09/07 04:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Quote:

by which time it was too late




I beg to differ.  Hitler is dead and the Allies won WWII.  Not too late.


 

Millions and millions of people found out just how late.  Millions upon millions upon millions.  For you, not too late.  You are cognizant of the fact that you are not the only person who was ever born aren't you?
Quote:



Also, we stood idly by because we were not prepared to enter the war.  We had our thumbs up our butts because of FDR and the poor military budget.




Sounds like......Bill Clinton.  Peace dividend and all.  If the nutlogs get a nuke and send it to NY it will be millions and millions again.





**yes it was too late for these guys....  :lolocaust: 




Unbelievable. 

There were plenty of isolationists and they were quite useful to Hitler.  I do believe that they were the reason the term "fifth column" was coined, but I could be wrong.  Ron Paul is useless to anybody.  He has no power and no effect.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7737327 - 12/09/07 04:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:

Islamic extremists do not like our setting up Military bases in their countries. They see it as an occupation. They do not like us installing puppet governments in their countries. They do not like our western government, influencing their leaders.




Who the fuck are they to decide? Al Qaeda is the ruling party of......nothing. Who gives a fuck what they want. We were in Kuwait and SA at the request of their governments. Nowhere else. Who made bin Laden king? You? This is why we must expend every effort to eradicate them and any who would help them.
Quote:



Intervening in the internal affairs of other nations, and "occupying" them, is the sort of interventionism that has spawned hate and anger in Islamic extremists. In this case, interventionism is what caused the problem.




The only nation we are occupying is Iraq and we've only been doing that for about 5 years. Unless you consider our presence in Germany an occupation, because you know Bader-Meinhof doesn't like it.
Quote:



You're not going to solve it by adding more fuel to the fire.

Al Queda is not a country. It's a rogue group of individuals, acting Independently spread around the world.




With friends, some of whom run countries. Those countries are ripe for invasion. Tough fucking shit for them
Quote:



Ron Paul wants special forces going after them specifically and individually. Ron Paul supported going after al Queda in Afghanistan. he still wants us going after Bin laden, who is now hiding out in Pakistan. Why are we not doing that?




Because, my simplistic sound bite, he is hiding in a lawless region of a nation whose ruler is mostly useful to us and who has his own internal problems. Bin Laden is currently reduced to producing videos of mass Democrat talking points. Like yours, surrender girl.
Quote:



McCain used an emotionally charged word " Hitler" just like Giuliani uses the emotionally charged word 9/11 a lot, to get people to move into a highly charged emotional and irrational state, so it's easier for them to go along with whatever is being said.




Now why do you suppose those words are emotionally charged? Perhaps because of the real world events which actually occurred? It would be irrational NOT to remember the lessons of history, surrender girl. Unless you're an ostrich.
Quote:



Al Quedas numbers were in the hundreds before we went into Iraq. Our continued interventionist foreign policy has now created tens of thousands of them.




Who are dieing glorious deaths and attaining blissful martyrhood, many at the hands of the Iraqi people, surrender girl.
Quote:



The current administration is acting like neo isolationists right before our eyes and nobody says a word. There are leaders we will not negotiate/talk with, we have trade sanctions put on them, and this is the sort of stuff that cuts us off from the rest of the world.




Just the recalcitrant loons who themselves have proven over and over again that they have no interest in good faith bargaining. Like Saddam. He struck a bargain. Not actually in good faith, though, so he is no more. He probably might have gotten away with it, too, if not for the currently ineffectual OBL's ill advised ambition. He had bribed 60% of the permanent members of the security council.
TalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkdon't mean shit if you don't mean it. Delaying tactics and secret violations make it all nonsense except to the duped, the eager fools and apologists and, yes, opportunists who sense a personal profit. For that fifth column it is all good.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7737338 - 12/09/07 04:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
interventionism brought us Korea, Vietnam, Iraq (1), Iraq (2), and all those Latin America conflicts. isolationism did not cause WWII to happen it just delayed us entering the conflict. history classes, they help.




Korea, Vietnam, Iraq1+2 were all brought about because of other nations interventionism. Would Hitler have even dared if he knew we would step in vigorously? He had half of Europe before the Limeys even got into it. A non-aggression pact with Stalin. Yes, child, history classes do help.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7737357 - 12/09/07 04:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

Yeah they replaced one form of totalitarianism with another. Nevermind that if we would have won there would have been no totalitarianism in either country.




You are simply delusional. Has it ever crossed your mind that another group of people somewhere else in the world might not equate colonialism & imperialism with "liberty" & "democracy"?
Do you even have a basic understanding about the history of Vietnamese nationalism & resistance to foreign powers trying to dominate & exploit it?




Please tell me where the US colonies are, because I just can't seem to find any on a map. Is one of them Germany? And who were those four wonderful Americans? Was Lindbergh perhaps one of them?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7737390 - 12/09/07 05:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

There were plenty of isolationists and they were quite useful to Hitler. I do believe that they were the reason the term "fifth column" was coined, but I could be wrong. Ron Paul is useless to anybody. He has no power and no effect.




I'll tell you who was useful to Hitler. Bush Seniors granddaddy.

Lets not forget that it was the U.S. that installed Saddam, the U.S. that has been messing around with installing leaders in Iran, pissing those people off at us, and it was Halliburton, that was working with Iran to help them get a Nuclear power program started for their oil refining industry and sold them some of the stuff we are crying over them having now.

U.S. intervention has it's hands covered in blood and deception.

Let me guess, paleocon is your puppet that you created to make it look like their are more neocons in denial of whats been happening here then just yourself.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7737753 - 12/09/07 06:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:

There were plenty of isolationists and they were quite useful to Hitler. I do believe that they were the reason the term "fifth column" was coined, but I could be wrong. Ron Paul is useless to anybody. He has no power and no effect.




I'll tell you who was useful to Hitler. Bush Seniors granddaddy.

Lets not forget that it was the U.S. that installed Saddam, the U.S. that has been messing around with installing leaders in Iran, pissing those people off at us, and it was Halliburton, that was working with Iran to help them get a Nuclear power program started for their oil refining industry and sold them some of the stuff we are crying over them having now.




What relentless bullshit. Though your seeming faith in the omnipotence of our clandestine forces is somewhat charming, like a five year old at the knee of a shopping mall Santa, it is nonetheless a disappointment in an allegedly educated semi-adult above the age of, say, 18. And NOW we have a NEW allegation that Halliburton is supplying Iran with equipment for nuclear processing. How....... interesting? Not.
Quote:



U.S. intervention has it's hands covered in blood and deception.




Yeah yeah yeah.
Quote:



Let me guess, paleocon is your puppet that you created to make it look like their are more neocons in denial of whats been happening here then just yourself.




Don't make the mistake of believing that the rest of the country is mostly populated by surrender monkeys who feel a need to apologize for American excellence. Your college campus may be, but that is not exactly Earth. I obviously have no problem slobber knocking the likes of you under my own nom de guerre. I don't need a puppet. Nor do I need many fellow travelers. There are more than a few here already.

Welcome paleocon. It can be great fun.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Phred]
    #7737821 - 12/09/07 07:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:45 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Silversoul]
    #7737827 - 12/09/07 07:02 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Where did Communism spread from Vietnam?




From the North to the South
Quote:



It seems to me the one thing they did after that was have a conflict with Cambodia in which they deposed Pol Pot.




One commie group invading another
"Vietnam's Cambodian government was formed from ex-Khmer Rouge cadres."


Quote:

In the 1980s, Laos and Cambodia had once more become Vietnam's client states. Laos, with a communist party long nurtured by the Vietnamese, entered the relationship with docility; Cambodia, however, under a ruthless, but anti-Vietnamese dictatorship of its own, resisted being drawn into the Vietnamese orbit. Tension between the two states escalated into open warfare and, in 1978, Hanoi launched an invasion that toppled the Pol Pot regime in Phnom Penh. In 1987 Cambodia remained a state governed precariously by a regime installed by Hanoi, its activities constrained by the presence of a substantial Vietnamese occupation force and a tenacious insurgency in the countryside.
http://countrystudies.us/vietnam/59.htm




Dominoes, silversoul, dominoes.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7737865 - 12/09/07 07:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:46 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7738462 - 12/09/07 09:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

SlashOZ said:
interventionism brought us Korea, Vietnam, Iraq (1), Iraq (2), and all those Latin America conflicts. isolationism did not cause WWII to happen it just delayed us entering the conflict. history classes, they help.




Korea, Vietnam, Iraq1+2 were all brought about because of other nations interventionism. Would Hitler have even dared if he knew we would step in vigorously? He had half of Europe before the Limeys even got into it. A non-aggression pact with Stalin. Yes, child, history classes do help.




lol what a silly reply. korea, vietnam, iraq 1+2 might have been started by other countries but how does that necessitate a repsone by the U.S.? if you are saying that the U.S. should act in a way to intervene when other countries go to war/civil war then i'm pretty sure that U.S. world cop interventionism is the only reason we went to those 4 wars along with all the Latin American conflicts.

the U.S. was hardly on the radar leading up to WWII because we were in the middle of the great depression. why should the U.S. government have been trying to stop war in Europe, which every European country ignored, when we were desperately trying to feed our own people at the time? not to mention we had an agricultural crisis with the dust bowl. there is more to it than just isolationism. our foriegn policy did not cause WWII, arguing that it did is just plain wrong.

so i guess if zappa had his way the U.S. would have attacked Japan, Italy, and Germany in the 1930's or the 1920's in the case of Japan as soon as they started expanding their empires? would we have intervened in spain as well during their civil war in order to keep franco out of power?

interventionism sucks, all it has brought us is the military industrial complex, exploding budgets, deaths of decent american youth, and ripped apart families. god bless america and our pro war anti peace ways over the last 65 or so years! why if we had not intervened in Vietnam we would all be communists because of course it was going to spread here next!!! actually we would probably be where we are now except we wouldn't have lost 75,000 youth during the conflict.

ron paul ftw!


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7738466 - 12/09/07 09:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
  It can be great fun.




You have that part right. :smile:

Anyone who cares to can use anything in the following to do a web search of their own with to learn more about it. 

Quote:

Halliburton, the notorious U.S. energy company, sold key nuclear-reactor components to a private Iranian oil company called Oriental Oil Kish as recently as 2005, using offshore subsidiaries to circumvent U.S. sanctions, journalist Jason Leopold reported on Globalresearch.ca, the Web site of a Canadian research group. He cited sources intimate with the business dealings of Halliburton and Kish.




This one can get anyone started on researching how Greatgrandaddy Bush helped Hitler.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html

Surrender to what? We are the ones who stormed in their and ousted a Dictator. Don't you remember the Mission Accomplished photos from years ago? Let them sort out their own civil war now. 

I watched your buddy today on Meet the Press. Boy is he an idiot. He said, " I make mistakes and when I make them, they are big ones."

Just what you want to hear someone running for President say.:crazy:

Your great protector from terrorists got reamed for his business dealings with the government of Qatar, who are known to have been protecting the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks (Bin ladens right hand man)

Rudy said, " Well sure I did, we need to make allies and trade with other countries."

When it comes to Iran, who have no nuclear weapons program, Rudy says "We need to keep sanctions on them and the bombing option threat on the table."

Hmmmmmmmm

Make friends and trade with governments protecting planners of the 9/11 attacks(That includes Pakistan hiding Bin Laden). Sanction and threaten to bomb countries that, had nothing to do with 9/11-Iraq and Iran.

How this sort of Foriegn Policy makes sense to you is beyond me.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7738501 - 12/09/07 09:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Make friends and trade with governments protecting planners of the 9/11 attacks(That includes Pakistan hiding Bin Laden). Sanction and threaten to bomb countries that, had nothing to do with 9/11-Iraq and Iran.

How this sort of Foriegn Policy makes sense to you is beyond me.




neocon strategy has never made sense. at best it can be construed in a way that makes it look like they are keeping war out of the American homeland but we all know we were not under any threat of invasion by anyone in the last century except the USSR and Nazi Germany. USSR was more imagination that reality. there are just some of those people who grew up with people who were republicans and become one themselves. now that their older(still in hs?) they just can't give up the (R) next to a candidates name. no matter how stupid the candidate is they just can't help but support them. their idea of 'thinking critically' is to blindly support the republican party.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7738569 - 12/09/07 10:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)


Quote:

The White House said on October 29, 2003 that it had helped with the production of a 'Mission Accomplished' banner as a backdrop for President George W. Bush's speech onboard the USS Abraham Lincoln to declare combat operations over in Iraq. This file photo shows Bush delivering a speech to crew aboard the aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln, as the carrier steamed toward San Diego, California on May 1, 2003. (Larry Downing/Reuters)




How does, "having to surrender" follow Mission accomplished? We should have left back then.



You are right Slash. The Chair of the Florida State REC, Jim Greer, was at our last county REC meeting. It was like communists party meeting, not a Republican party meeting. He kept carrying on about how Republicans have to support whoever the Republican nominee is no matter what. Scary stuff, very cultish like mentality and strange 20 minute long ass kissing rituals.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7738597 - 12/09/07 10:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

exactly many (R) are interested in voting for the party instead of the candidate even if the candidate is a total idiot. its so stupid it makes me want to puke. elections are for finding the best candidates not the best party.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7739335 - 12/10/07 06:01 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

gettinjiggywithit writes:

Quote:

Lets not forget that it was the U.S. that installed Saddam...




Wrong.

This still astounds me, even though I've seen it over and over and over again for the last six years -- the buulshit misrepresentation of this easily checkable fact. Why do you guys think you can get away with it? Is it that you think if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes fact?

Hussein was not "installed" by the US. He murdered his way to the top of the food chain on his own. Why you believe any moderately well-informed person would think otherwise is beyond me.

Quote:

Let me guess, paleocon is your puppet that you created to make it look like their are more neocons in denial of whats been happening here then just yourself.




Another Lefty trope -- that there can't actually be as many people out there as smart as neocons demonstrate themselves to be: there can only be a small handful, each of them running dozens of puppets. Sorry, jiggy, but internet manipulation is a Paulbot phenomenon, not a neocon one.



Phred


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7739457 - 12/10/07 06:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

EntheogenicPeace provides two links,

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/gm.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm

neither of which support his claim that "Ford & GM ... built such impressive, advanced & efficient military equipment for the Nazis to overtake so much of Europe so quickly."

After reading through both lengthy essays (especially the first one... we're talking 45 minutes to get through the two) the interested reader finds no information about impressive, advanced, and efficient military equipment built by Ford which was used to invade European countries. As for GM, much is made in the first article about Opel's three ton truck, of which the German military bought a lot. In 1937, only 83% of these trucks were bought by private individuals and companies. The rest of the production run was bought by the German military. By 1939, 29% of the trucks were bought by the military -- a staggering 6,000 units.

Nowhere in either article are we told just which features of the Opel truck made it more "impressive, advanced and efficient" than any of the other trucks being bought in Germany in the late Thirties, nor are we told how many trucks the German military bought from manufacturers other than Opel.

And of course this whole tangent about the eeeeeeevil Amerikkan capitalists is just another patented EP sidestep of the point under discussion -- McCain's characterization of the kind of isolationism Ron Paul espouses. Yet again we see EP attempt to argue through the "yeah, but other guys did bad stuff, too" mode of response. Even assuming that having ten thousand Opel trucks at the Nazis disposal made the difference between Germany successfully invading Poland and France and failing at that task (and no competent historian would dare to make such an assertion), this in no way rebuts (or even addresses) McCain's point.



Phred


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7739472 - 12/10/07 07:08 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

First, your title is a lie because Ron Paul is not an isolationist. A cursory glance can evidence that. I'll get more into that when I quote your last statement. Also, I haven't read the thread itself yet.

Quote:

Paleocon said:
I must have I have to agree with McCain's assesment. The fact is Ron Paul is making the classic mistake the US after losing world war 1, namely calling for a retreat into itself, while ignoring real threats like Iran and Al Qaeda. Remember we did the same thing with Hitler and Stalin after our military ventures in the First World War.




It isn't our responsibility, nor should it be, to police the entire planet. Perhaps you haven't existed in a time when America didn't impose itself in such a manner throughout the planet, and haven't read into too much history, so you automatically assume that it is our place because its all you know. :shrug:

Even if you feel it is our responsibility to disregard the sovereignity of other nations and seek to police them, you then have to consider the practicality of it. It isn't sustainable for us to maintain such an empire and to engage in all of these pre-emptive wars. Here's the defintion of pre-emptive:

Quote:


taken as a measure against something possible, anticipated, or feared; preventive; deterrent:




Were we to police Germany to prevent anyone like Hitler to rise into power? Obviously not, America cannot be in all places at once, and, to step back even futher, we shouldn't.

And when he started invading other nations? Should we have jumped at the drop of the hat to intervene? Well, it isn't possible to do that, it takes time and organization and resources to show up for war. At that point, it is simply an affair of neighboring countries. So, because Germany invaded Poland, is it America's responsibility to then intervene? Remember that definition of pre-emptive? :strokebeard:

Maybe you don't understand how relations amongst nations work, and how most sane individuals do not embrace a policy of America instantly being anywhere on this planet to police everyone to ensure that no bad guy ever does anything wrong. Eisenhower said that pre-emptive war was the invention of Hitler, and that he wouldn't listen to anyone seriously that talked about it, or something along those lines.

It is too much a stetch to simply obtrude into another country acrossed the globe like that, and it has serious, negative reactions.

Quote:


Also one must wonder what "non-interventionism" is, besides a category arbitrarily invented for sake of political conveniance.




One need not wonder if one simply do a quick definition check. An isolationist favors no alliance with other nations in any area. A non-interventionalist favors free trade with all nations, does not favor alliances that will ultimately bound us agansit our interests, and will not engage in war unless it is in defense of our terrority itself. Makes sense to me. :shrug:

Um, that's quite the distinction in definitions there, which is exactly why there are two words to represent each definition. Pull your head out of John McCain's ass - no one actually thinks the United States of America was responsible for Adolph Hitler's rise. It doesn't make sense that we would be. The United States of America isn't the alpha and omega of the planet, my friend. The fact that JohnMcCain is lashing out agansit someone that the military supports more than the rest of the GOP candidates combined has a definition to - death knell. Its a death knell of John McCain, and its a death-knell of the viewpoint that the United States of America will continue to pre-emptively go to war to police the globe.

:sorry:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7739552 - 12/10/07 07:51 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Things are so damn confusing nowadays in the post WWII era now that we have nukes everywhere. Back then you could see war coming, for the most part. I think most people knew we'd get involved in WWII eventually and were sort of mentally prepping themselves for it.

If there were no such thing as nukes... debates like this would be so much easier to just leave the world alone and allow them to deal with their own problems.

Not trusting people like Hitler and staying outta things was a little easier back then. If Hitler had nukes back then, things would be different.

The fact that shady people can press a button and kill millions of people halfway across the planet nowadays in seconds... That's what really makes me not 100% on any view that I have about getting involved or not getting involved.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7739560 - 12/10/07 08:00 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Just like we do the Iraq War today--seeing as we technically lose more people in the military due to driving accidents then we have in the war.




This is the stupidest thing I've heard all year, and, with twenty-two days left to go, I think I can safely say that it will stay that way. :lol:

:what:

First off, your statistic itself makes no sense. There isn't as many people in the military as their is who drive in general. :cuckoo: You could only compare the two if you converted them into a percentage. Now, do you actually have the figures in front of you? Do you know how to figure out a percentage? Or are you simply spewing some neo-con propaganda that you read? :strokebeard:

Secondly, what is really fucked up is your ideology behind producing the statistic for our consideration in the first place.

Let's let you in on a little secret, okay?

Listen closely now....

The lives lost in the American military is not a trivial matter! :shocked:

The families of those who were lost find it a tragedy. Probably because it is. The majority of Americans want our troops out of Iraq. Do you know why?

Because Americans don't like to have their family killed unless it is for a damn good reason.

The majority of Americans have finally realized that it doesn't make sense for them to pay for their family to die unless there is an actual, plausible threat to Americans. Defying all logic, Americans are more concerned about the security of our borders than the borders of a country most Americans have been to, never been near, and never known anyone who has. Well, except, of course, when we started sending Americans to kill people who live there. :shrug:

Anyone who considers that human beings are full of value, worth, and that they should exist, be free to live life, and to have their rights as humans respected doesn't engage in pre-emptive war. War inflicts suffering on mankind, on every level of our existence. It isn't to be engaged in lightly.

If we were actually concerned with the humanitarian crisis in Iraq inflicted by the despotic rule of Saddam Hussein, we would have utilized much more effective means of influencing their country into being more democratic and free. Of course, that was never our intent, as our intent was to strike an enemy. Anyone who thinks that Iraq was the only reason America invaded Iraq, you're stupid. This has probably been even more about Iran, but its all regardless to the point I was seeking.

Sure, some order is arising from our surge and our presence after toppling the regime, but that order is one that is in relation to our presence. We weren't interested in respecting the sovereignty of the nation and using less obtrusive tools to promote the ideals that we stand for (there are less obtrusive, more effective tools, by the way :wink:). We were interested in turning the country into chaos by intruding and removing the management (that which maintains the order), and then to use our presence as the strongest force to arrange the country's organization as one that lies dependent on our country. Hhhm... maybe we wanted something valuable, and we wanted a lot of leverage? :strokebeard:

Anyone who doesn't look at America/ Iraq-Iran and doesn't see a vision of a red ant colony and a black ant colony pitted against each other is so biased of being human that they don't see their own nature. :earth: Of course, now that the planet is much more interdependent, through the miracle of mutual-interests (you know, like how utilizing a nuclear weapon harms us all), proliferated by the technological innovation that has allowed us to effectively communicate globally, we are beginning to awaken to the fact that we are all one planet, one human race. Maybe its because we all interact with each other more and we realize that emphasizing our differences instead of embracing our similarities threatens our own survival, as we see and experience how the harm we inflict upon others inevitably inflicts harm upon ourselves. Every action has a consequence. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: BrAiN]
    #7739572 - 12/10/07 08:08 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Great points. We wouldn't worry about the threat of other nations using them, even if they do have them, if we didn't give them incentive to do so. If we'd trade with them, we'd form a symbiotic relationship. It would be in both of our interests to maintain trade - because they are taking what we are giving them, for something we need or want in return. In order to maintain trade, there would need to be communication. If there is communication, there is idea-exchange. If there is idea-exchange, we become more free, because, more information means we understand more. We become more aware of the nature of reality, as we take in the output of ideas from others, which brings us to form more perspective in our perceptions of reality. The nature of reality is freedom. Humans are free. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7739635 - 12/10/07 08:47 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

>We wouldn't worry about the threat of other nations using them, even if they do have them, if we didn't give them incentive to do so.

I agree with you for the most part, but what about people like Hitler who DONT NEED an incentive to use them other than for just selfish world domination? There are always going to be leaders of countries who just want to rule the world or bring back the glory of old empires who will want to use nukes, not because they don't like you, but just because they want power? Don't these people need to be kept in check?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here.. I don't really have an answer myself.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: BrAiN]
    #7739743 - 12/10/07 09:36 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The more the human race evolves, the less likely anyone will even think to do it, because it won't be part of the conditioning that occurs. Over time, everyone will be raised in an environment in which it hasn't happened. Also, the more education is promoted, after being able to receive more and more funding as other unnecessary programs, such as vast military expansion, I would imagine that history would be understood in a much more relevant way than it is taken in as by most now. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7739756 - 12/10/07 09:42 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Eh. I disagree. We learn from our history, but I think that really that only goes so far. I mean look at how we glorify conquerers like Caesar and Alexandar nowadays. If shit like that was pulled nowadays it would never fly, but everyone grows up thinking of them as noble people.

Humans are always going to have generations with maniacs. 4 billion people is a big number.. too big to think that every one of them will never be a horrid ruler of a powerful country.

I guess you're more of an optomist than I.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7741170 - 12/10/07 03:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
The more the human race evolves, the less likely anyone will even think to do it, because it won't be part of the conditioning that occurs. Over time, everyone will be raised in an environment in which it hasn't happened. Also, the more education is promoted, after being able to receive more and more funding as other unnecessary programs, such as vast military expansion, I would imagine that history would be understood in a much more relevant way than it is taken in as by most now. :wink:




What disorganized drivel.  First off, the human "race" is not evolving.  At all.  Scientific advances occur but that is not remotely related to evolution.  Science is evolving, humans are not.  Many, many reject and are fearful of technological advances.  Mike Huckabee and Khameinei are prime examples of this.  Currently, hundreds of millions of people are being conditioned to violently impose a regressive and repressive ideology on all other humans.  By any means necessary, include co-opting the technology of their enemy.  Lying is a sin except lying to infidels is not.  Etc. etc. etc.  Although it is quite warming to my heart that there are happy-go-lucky children who believe in the universal goodness and reasonability of all men, I am equally glad that there are adults who perceive the evil that lurks in a great deal of the population and are willing to protect you.  Often at the risk of their own lives.  Now, I think it's time for your nap.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Phred]
    #7741203 - 12/10/07 03:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:47 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7741217 - 12/10/07 03:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:47 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7741270 - 12/10/07 03:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

No shit. I myself would choose not to run faster than the bear, just faster than you. And to make damn sure that you tripped. Right in front of him. THAT right there would be human evolution.
Really, can you ever follow a point? Everybody has investments. They aren't all stocks and bonds. Is it only worthy if it is completely altruistic? What is your problem with self-interest? A vast percentage of the population thinks there is no danger. A larger percentage realizes there is. The former group of retards benefits from the actions of the latter. Nobody benefits from the (in)actions of the former. Except the predators.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7741463 - 12/10/07 04:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Science is evolving, humans are not.




Well.. depends on how you look at it. Our races are mixing more now than ever before. You COULD call that evolution.

If you're looking for a more Darwinistic example, I remember reading something about how people located primarily in Finland who are frequently being found with a gene that causes them to live a few years longer on aerage.

It's all evolution... However this is all slow as hell. I believe in Evolution, but evolution takes millions of years.

Or maybe he was just saying evolution in the general sense.. more than just genetics, but like the GROWING we've done as a race.

Either way.. there will always be Hitlers until the end of time


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7741550 - 12/10/07 04:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:47 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7741762 - 12/10/07 05:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I'm an American. I don't care what the enemy thinks about who the threat is to them


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7742026 - 12/10/07 06:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:48 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7742054 - 12/10/07 06:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You said this:

Quote:

More people in the world think the U.S. is the greatest threat to world peace than believe Islam to be.




There are 300 million Americans. There are 1 billion Muslims. Given the disparity in population and the oft asserted Muslim imperative to spread the word of Allah to all, by the sword if necessary, I have no doubt that we are outnumbered. Do you have a fucking point today or will it be just like every other pointless day for you?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7742095 - 12/10/07 06:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:48 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7742194 - 12/10/07 06:58 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Now it's a majority (a word not present in your original post). How quaint. I can only respond to what you actually write, not what you intend to mean.
I don't care what most of the world thinks. Most of the world has quite a few very strange ideas.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSoY
I am the LizardKing
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7742328 - 12/10/07 07:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You said this:

   
Quote:


    More people in the world think the U.S. is the greatest threat to world peace than believe Islam to be.





Now it's a majority (a word not present in your original post).





:shake: duh zappa, duh


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


Edited by SoY (12/10/07 07:21 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7743901 - 12/11/07 06:22 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

First, it does address the main point in that it dispels the notion that U.S. leaders (industrialists in this case) were neutral...




US industrialists aren't (and weren't) "leaders". This Lefty canard simply refuses to die. The decision re entering the war was made by the US president, not by Ford or GM or AT&T.

Were there many (not just industrialists) in the US prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor who thought it was a bad idea for the US to enter the war? Yes, there certainly were, and by no means were all of them industrialists or politicians. That does nothing to rebut McCain's point -- that isolationism allowed Hitler to get a lot further with no resistance than he would have otherwise.

Quote:

One more thing on this, if you're going to deny that many leading U.S. industrialists (from George W. Bush's grandfather, Henry Ford, those at at the top of GM, Thomas Watson of IBM, those at the top of Standard Oil which is now ExxonMobil, Chase Manhattan, DuPont & others) had more affinity for Hitler & his ideology than FDR & his, then this simply contradicts all historic record.




Where have I denied this? Besides, their affinity has nothing to do with McCain's point.

Quote:

And yes, the two companies were instrumental in building advanced & efficient equipment for the Nazi military exactly as I stated.




No they weren't. Up until 1939, Opel built trucks. Big whoop. Nothing particularly advanced or efficient about three ton trucks. Neither of your links tells us a single thing that Ford built. Years after the conquest of Poland and France, when Opel (and every other industry in Germany) was under total Nazi control, some Opel plants built aircraft engines, too.

Your original statement was a crock of shit. Had Opel or Ford never existed, the Nazis would have overtaken just as much of Europe just as quickly. Rather than riding in 10,000 or so Opel trucks, they would have ridden in 10,000 or so Daimler-Benz trucks, that's all.



Phred


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRosettaStoned
Stranger


Registered: 05/29/06
Posts: 540
Loc: North America
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Phred]
    #7743964 - 12/11/07 07:24 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

This still astounds me, even though I've seen it over and over and over again for the last six years -- the bullshit misrepresentation of this easily check able fact. Why do you guys think you can get away with it? Is it that you think if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes fact?

Hussein was not "installed" by the US. He murdered his way to the top of the food chain on his own. Why you believe any moderately well-informed person would think otherwise is beyond me.






Yes Phred, since there was not a congressional amendment stating we installed saddam that means it didn't happen. The only one repeating a lie over and over again is you. The CIA and it's counterparts had its hands all over saddam's "rise". To think that saddam repeatedly met with them before his take over and then all of a sudden is the dictator declaring war against iran with weapons from our catalog is complete coincidence.

Our installation of the sha of iran failed for numerous reasons, most of them probably due to his US-backed brutality. So we counter the iran revolution by sending saddam against them. As usual your agenda crystal clear and the other fool in this thread is undoubtedly a puppet of one of the resident neo-cons. He's so delusional the only explanation is he was created to stir up bullshit against Ron Paul.

There isn't a neo-con alive who is interested in honest debate.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #7743971 - 12/11/07 07:30 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Hussein rose to power within the ruling Iraqi Ba'athist party on his own. That has been amply documented by numerous credible sources, Iraqi and otherwise.

There isn't a single poster here (or in any other forum I've ever visited, for that matter) who has ever been able to provide support for the whole "the CIA installed Hussein" bullshit. All they do is claim it to be true. On the other hand, there is copious information from numerous credible open party sources (such as the foreign press) detailing every step of his rise within the Ba'ath party. None of this is difficult to find on the intraweb tubes -- it's a matter of public record.

Has the CIA pulled some sketchy moves over its history? Damned skippy! But installing Saddam Hussein wasn't one of those moves. You are just plain flat out wrong on this one.

Quote:

There isn't a neo-con alive who is interested in honest debate.




The irony of a Lefty making this statement is staggering. If you wanted honest debate, you'd be honest about Hussein's rise to power, for starters.

To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, "It's not that Lefties don't know anything, it's that they know so many things that aren't true."



Phred


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7744637 - 12/11/07 11:41 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> First off, the human "race" is not evolving. At all.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071210/sc_nm/evolution_human_dc_1:
Quote:

Human evolution has been moving at breakneck speed in the past several thousand years, far from plodding along as some scientists had thought, researchers said on Monday [Dec 10, 2007].

In fact, people today are genetically more different from people living 5,000 years ago than those humans were different from the Neanderthals who vanished 30,000 years ago, according to anthropologist John Hawks of the University of Wisconsin.




Edit: Depending upon your definition of "Human Race" the above can support either side of the argument.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


Edited by Seuss (12/11/07 11:44 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinegluke bastid
Stinky Bum
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Seuss]
    #7744664 - 12/11/07 11:52 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Right. Obviously we are off topic but technically speaking every species is always evolving. One should never confuse the word "evolving" with "improving"


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7745452 - 12/11/07 03:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

There is no evolution without premature death and we have pretty much eliminated that in most places. Call me when the Africans become resistant to malaria. And AIDS.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleArp
roving mycophagist
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7745492 - 12/11/07 03:26 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/03_00/bone_dna.shtml

Check this out Zappa. Pretty interesting


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Arp]
    #7745535 - 12/11/07 03:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

It is. In very many ways it speaks to the accidental nature of functional mutation. A non advantageous mutation may occur in a population and persist because of harmlessness and at some later date bestow an advantage to a totally unrelated threat.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7745608 - 12/11/07 03:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> Call me when the Africans become resistant to malaria

Calling Zappa...  :wink: From the link I posted above:

Quote:

Many of the recent genetic changes reflect differences in the human diet brought on by agriculture, as well as resistance to epidemic diseases that became mass killers following the growth of human civilizations, the researchers said.

For example, Africans have new genes providing resistance to malaria. In Europeans, there is a gene that makes them better able to digest milk as adults. In Asians, there is a gene that makes ear wax more dry.





Sorry to take us off topic.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Phred]
    #7749885 - 12/12/07 03:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:51 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7  [ show all ]

Shop: North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Help End Draft Registration! ez-e 1,704 2 06/13/01 05:24 PM
by Suntzu
* help me cubana 458 3 12/15/02 04:16 AM
by cubana
* John Wayne, the badass and the communists Ellis Dee 1,381 13 08/02/03 01:21 AM
by danelectro
* Bush asks for help
( 1 2 all )
Xlea321 2,127 39 09/08/03 01:47 AM
by uno
* Tribute to John Ashcroft
( 1 2 3 all )
silversoul7 2,347 42 08/31/03 03:35 PM
by fireworks_god
* John Walker... Proteus 1,598 18 01/25/02 01:20 PM
by wingnutx
* Hitler
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Anonymous 2,423 69 02/18/03 04:39 AM
by Innvertigo
* ron regan jr's stem cell speech
( 1 2 3 all )
KingOftheThing 3,263 55 08/11/04 10:28 PM
by Phred

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
7,828 topic views. 2 members, 3 guests and 3 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.065 seconds spending 0.011 seconds on 14 queries.