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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7737327 - 12/09/07 04:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:

Islamic extremists do not like our setting up Military bases in their countries. They see it as an occupation. They do not like us installing puppet governments in their countries. They do not like our western government, influencing their leaders.




Who the fuck are they to decide? Al Qaeda is the ruling party of......nothing. Who gives a fuck what they want. We were in Kuwait and SA at the request of their governments. Nowhere else. Who made bin Laden king? You? This is why we must expend every effort to eradicate them and any who would help them.
Quote:



Intervening in the internal affairs of other nations, and "occupying" them, is the sort of interventionism that has spawned hate and anger in Islamic extremists. In this case, interventionism is what caused the problem.




The only nation we are occupying is Iraq and we've only been doing that for about 5 years. Unless you consider our presence in Germany an occupation, because you know Bader-Meinhof doesn't like it.
Quote:



You're not going to solve it by adding more fuel to the fire.

Al Queda is not a country. It's a rogue group of individuals, acting Independently spread around the world.




With friends, some of whom run countries. Those countries are ripe for invasion. Tough fucking shit for them
Quote:



Ron Paul wants special forces going after them specifically and individually. Ron Paul supported going after al Queda in Afghanistan. he still wants us going after Bin laden, who is now hiding out in Pakistan. Why are we not doing that?




Because, my simplistic sound bite, he is hiding in a lawless region of a nation whose ruler is mostly useful to us and who has his own internal problems. Bin Laden is currently reduced to producing videos of mass Democrat talking points. Like yours, surrender girl.
Quote:



McCain used an emotionally charged word " Hitler" just like Giuliani uses the emotionally charged word 9/11 a lot, to get people to move into a highly charged emotional and irrational state, so it's easier for them to go along with whatever is being said.




Now why do you suppose those words are emotionally charged? Perhaps because of the real world events which actually occurred? It would be irrational NOT to remember the lessons of history, surrender girl. Unless you're an ostrich.
Quote:



Al Quedas numbers were in the hundreds before we went into Iraq. Our continued interventionist foreign policy has now created tens of thousands of them.




Who are dieing glorious deaths and attaining blissful martyrhood, many at the hands of the Iraqi people, surrender girl.
Quote:



The current administration is acting like neo isolationists right before our eyes and nobody says a word. There are leaders we will not negotiate/talk with, we have trade sanctions put on them, and this is the sort of stuff that cuts us off from the rest of the world.




Just the recalcitrant loons who themselves have proven over and over again that they have no interest in good faith bargaining. Like Saddam. He struck a bargain. Not actually in good faith, though, so he is no more. He probably might have gotten away with it, too, if not for the currently ineffectual OBL's ill advised ambition. He had bribed 60% of the permanent members of the security council.
TalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkTalkdon't mean shit if you don't mean it. Delaying tactics and secret violations make it all nonsense except to the duped, the eager fools and apologists and, yes, opportunists who sense a personal profit. For that fifth column it is all good.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7737338 - 12/09/07 04:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
interventionism brought us Korea, Vietnam, Iraq (1), Iraq (2), and all those Latin America conflicts. isolationism did not cause WWII to happen it just delayed us entering the conflict. history classes, they help.




Korea, Vietnam, Iraq1+2 were all brought about because of other nations interventionism. Would Hitler have even dared if he knew we would step in vigorously? He had half of Europe before the Limeys even got into it. A non-aggression pact with Stalin. Yes, child, history classes do help.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7737357 - 12/09/07 04:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

Yeah they replaced one form of totalitarianism with another. Nevermind that if we would have won there would have been no totalitarianism in either country.




You are simply delusional. Has it ever crossed your mind that another group of people somewhere else in the world might not equate colonialism & imperialism with "liberty" & "democracy"?
Do you even have a basic understanding about the history of Vietnamese nationalism & resistance to foreign powers trying to dominate & exploit it?




Please tell me where the US colonies are, because I just can't seem to find any on a map. Is one of them Germany? And who were those four wonderful Americans? Was Lindbergh perhaps one of them?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7737390 - 12/09/07 05:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

There were plenty of isolationists and they were quite useful to Hitler. I do believe that they were the reason the term "fifth column" was coined, but I could be wrong. Ron Paul is useless to anybody. He has no power and no effect.




I'll tell you who was useful to Hitler. Bush Seniors granddaddy.

Lets not forget that it was the U.S. that installed Saddam, the U.S. that has been messing around with installing leaders in Iran, pissing those people off at us, and it was Halliburton, that was working with Iran to help them get a Nuclear power program started for their oil refining industry and sold them some of the stuff we are crying over them having now.

U.S. intervention has it's hands covered in blood and deception.

Let me guess, paleocon is your puppet that you created to make it look like their are more neocons in denial of whats been happening here then just yourself.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7737753 - 12/09/07 06:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:

There were plenty of isolationists and they were quite useful to Hitler. I do believe that they were the reason the term "fifth column" was coined, but I could be wrong. Ron Paul is useless to anybody. He has no power and no effect.




I'll tell you who was useful to Hitler. Bush Seniors granddaddy.

Lets not forget that it was the U.S. that installed Saddam, the U.S. that has been messing around with installing leaders in Iran, pissing those people off at us, and it was Halliburton, that was working with Iran to help them get a Nuclear power program started for their oil refining industry and sold them some of the stuff we are crying over them having now.




What relentless bullshit. Though your seeming faith in the omnipotence of our clandestine forces is somewhat charming, like a five year old at the knee of a shopping mall Santa, it is nonetheless a disappointment in an allegedly educated semi-adult above the age of, say, 18. And NOW we have a NEW allegation that Halliburton is supplying Iran with equipment for nuclear processing. How....... interesting? Not.
Quote:



U.S. intervention has it's hands covered in blood and deception.




Yeah yeah yeah.
Quote:



Let me guess, paleocon is your puppet that you created to make it look like their are more neocons in denial of whats been happening here then just yourself.




Don't make the mistake of believing that the rest of the country is mostly populated by surrender monkeys who feel a need to apologize for American excellence. Your college campus may be, but that is not exactly Earth. I obviously have no problem slobber knocking the likes of you under my own nom de guerre. I don't need a puppet. Nor do I need many fellow travelers. There are more than a few here already.

Welcome paleocon. It can be great fun.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
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Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Phred]
    #7737821 - 12/09/07 07:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:45 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Silversoul]
    #7737827 - 12/09/07 07:02 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Where did Communism spread from Vietnam?




From the North to the South
Quote:



It seems to me the one thing they did after that was have a conflict with Cambodia in which they deposed Pol Pot.




One commie group invading another
"Vietnam's Cambodian government was formed from ex-Khmer Rouge cadres."


Quote:

In the 1980s, Laos and Cambodia had once more become Vietnam's client states. Laos, with a communist party long nurtured by the Vietnamese, entered the relationship with docility; Cambodia, however, under a ruthless, but anti-Vietnamese dictatorship of its own, resisted being drawn into the Vietnamese orbit. Tension between the two states escalated into open warfare and, in 1978, Hanoi launched an invasion that toppled the Pol Pot regime in Phnom Penh. In 1987 Cambodia remained a state governed precariously by a regime installed by Hanoi, its activities constrained by the presence of a substantial Vietnamese occupation force and a tenacious insurgency in the countryside.
http://countrystudies.us/vietnam/59.htm




Dominoes, silversoul, dominoes.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
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Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7737865 - 12/09/07 07:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:46 PM)


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InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
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Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7738462 - 12/09/07 09:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

SlashOZ said:
interventionism brought us Korea, Vietnam, Iraq (1), Iraq (2), and all those Latin America conflicts. isolationism did not cause WWII to happen it just delayed us entering the conflict. history classes, they help.




Korea, Vietnam, Iraq1+2 were all brought about because of other nations interventionism. Would Hitler have even dared if he knew we would step in vigorously? He had half of Europe before the Limeys even got into it. A non-aggression pact with Stalin. Yes, child, history classes do help.




lol what a silly reply. korea, vietnam, iraq 1+2 might have been started by other countries but how does that necessitate a repsone by the U.S.? if you are saying that the U.S. should act in a way to intervene when other countries go to war/civil war then i'm pretty sure that U.S. world cop interventionism is the only reason we went to those 4 wars along with all the Latin American conflicts.

the U.S. was hardly on the radar leading up to WWII because we were in the middle of the great depression. why should the U.S. government have been trying to stop war in Europe, which every European country ignored, when we were desperately trying to feed our own people at the time? not to mention we had an agricultural crisis with the dust bowl. there is more to it than just isolationism. our foriegn policy did not cause WWII, arguing that it did is just plain wrong.

so i guess if zappa had his way the U.S. would have attacked Japan, Italy, and Germany in the 1930's or the 1920's in the case of Japan as soon as they started expanding their empires? would we have intervened in spain as well during their civil war in order to keep franco out of power?

interventionism sucks, all it has brought us is the military industrial complex, exploding budgets, deaths of decent american youth, and ripped apart families. god bless america and our pro war anti peace ways over the last 65 or so years! why if we had not intervened in Vietnam we would all be communists because of course it was going to spread here next!!! actually we would probably be where we are now except we wouldn't have lost 75,000 youth during the conflict.

ron paul ftw!


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7738466 - 12/09/07 09:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
  It can be great fun.




You have that part right. :smile:

Anyone who cares to can use anything in the following to do a web search of their own with to learn more about it. 

Quote:

Halliburton, the notorious U.S. energy company, sold key nuclear-reactor components to a private Iranian oil company called Oriental Oil Kish as recently as 2005, using offshore subsidiaries to circumvent U.S. sanctions, journalist Jason Leopold reported on Globalresearch.ca, the Web site of a Canadian research group. He cited sources intimate with the business dealings of Halliburton and Kish.




This one can get anyone started on researching how Greatgrandaddy Bush helped Hitler.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html

Surrender to what? We are the ones who stormed in their and ousted a Dictator. Don't you remember the Mission Accomplished photos from years ago? Let them sort out their own civil war now. 

I watched your buddy today on Meet the Press. Boy is he an idiot. He said, " I make mistakes and when I make them, they are big ones."

Just what you want to hear someone running for President say.:crazy:

Your great protector from terrorists got reamed for his business dealings with the government of Qatar, who are known to have been protecting the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks (Bin ladens right hand man)

Rudy said, " Well sure I did, we need to make allies and trade with other countries."

When it comes to Iran, who have no nuclear weapons program, Rudy says "We need to keep sanctions on them and the bombing option threat on the table."

Hmmmmmmmm

Make friends and trade with governments protecting planners of the 9/11 attacks(That includes Pakistan hiding Bin Laden). Sanction and threaten to bomb countries that, had nothing to do with 9/11-Iraq and Iran.

How this sort of Foriegn Policy makes sense to you is beyond me.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Registered: 10/20/06
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7738501 - 12/09/07 09:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Make friends and trade with governments protecting planners of the 9/11 attacks(That includes Pakistan hiding Bin Laden). Sanction and threaten to bomb countries that, had nothing to do with 9/11-Iraq and Iran.

How this sort of Foriegn Policy makes sense to you is beyond me.




neocon strategy has never made sense. at best it can be construed in a way that makes it look like they are keeping war out of the American homeland but we all know we were not under any threat of invasion by anyone in the last century except the USSR and Nazi Germany. USSR was more imagination that reality. there are just some of those people who grew up with people who were republicans and become one themselves. now that their older(still in hs?) they just can't give up the (R) next to a candidates name. no matter how stupid the candidate is they just can't help but support them. their idea of 'thinking critically' is to blindly support the republican party.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7738569 - 12/09/07 10:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)


Quote:

The White House said on October 29, 2003 that it had helped with the production of a 'Mission Accomplished' banner as a backdrop for President George W. Bush's speech onboard the USS Abraham Lincoln to declare combat operations over in Iraq. This file photo shows Bush delivering a speech to crew aboard the aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln, as the carrier steamed toward San Diego, California on May 1, 2003. (Larry Downing/Reuters)




How does, "having to surrender" follow Mission accomplished? We should have left back then.



You are right Slash. The Chair of the Florida State REC, Jim Greer, was at our last county REC meeting. It was like communists party meeting, not a Republican party meeting. He kept carrying on about how Republicans have to support whoever the Republican nominee is no matter what. Scary stuff, very cultish like mentality and strange 20 minute long ass kissing rituals.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7738597 - 12/09/07 10:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

exactly many (R) are interested in voting for the party instead of the candidate even if the candidate is a total idiot. its so stupid it makes me want to puke. elections are for finding the best candidates not the best party.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7739335 - 12/10/07 06:01 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

gettinjiggywithit writes:

Quote:

Lets not forget that it was the U.S. that installed Saddam...




Wrong.

This still astounds me, even though I've seen it over and over and over again for the last six years -- the buulshit misrepresentation of this easily checkable fact. Why do you guys think you can get away with it? Is it that you think if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes fact?

Hussein was not "installed" by the US. He murdered his way to the top of the food chain on his own. Why you believe any moderately well-informed person would think otherwise is beyond me.

Quote:

Let me guess, paleocon is your puppet that you created to make it look like their are more neocons in denial of whats been happening here then just yourself.




Another Lefty trope -- that there can't actually be as many people out there as smart as neocons demonstrate themselves to be: there can only be a small handful, each of them running dozens of puppets. Sorry, jiggy, but internet manipulation is a Paulbot phenomenon, not a neocon one.



Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7739457 - 12/10/07 06:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

EntheogenicPeace provides two links,

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/gm.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm

neither of which support his claim that "Ford & GM ... built such impressive, advanced & efficient military equipment for the Nazis to overtake so much of Europe so quickly."

After reading through both lengthy essays (especially the first one... we're talking 45 minutes to get through the two) the interested reader finds no information about impressive, advanced, and efficient military equipment built by Ford which was used to invade European countries. As for GM, much is made in the first article about Opel's three ton truck, of which the German military bought a lot. In 1937, only 83% of these trucks were bought by private individuals and companies. The rest of the production run was bought by the German military. By 1939, 29% of the trucks were bought by the military -- a staggering 6,000 units.

Nowhere in either article are we told just which features of the Opel truck made it more "impressive, advanced and efficient" than any of the other trucks being bought in Germany in the late Thirties, nor are we told how many trucks the German military bought from manufacturers other than Opel.

And of course this whole tangent about the eeeeeeevil Amerikkan capitalists is just another patented EP sidestep of the point under discussion -- McCain's characterization of the kind of isolationism Ron Paul espouses. Yet again we see EP attempt to argue through the "yeah, but other guys did bad stuff, too" mode of response. Even assuming that having ten thousand Opel trucks at the Nazis disposal made the difference between Germany successfully invading Poland and France and failing at that task (and no competent historian would dare to make such an assertion), this in no way rebuts (or even addresses) McCain's point.



Phred


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7739472 - 12/10/07 07:08 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

First, your title is a lie because Ron Paul is not an isolationist. A cursory glance can evidence that. I'll get more into that when I quote your last statement. Also, I haven't read the thread itself yet.

Quote:

Paleocon said:
I must have I have to agree with McCain's assesment. The fact is Ron Paul is making the classic mistake the US after losing world war 1, namely calling for a retreat into itself, while ignoring real threats like Iran and Al Qaeda. Remember we did the same thing with Hitler and Stalin after our military ventures in the First World War.




It isn't our responsibility, nor should it be, to police the entire planet. Perhaps you haven't existed in a time when America didn't impose itself in such a manner throughout the planet, and haven't read into too much history, so you automatically assume that it is our place because its all you know. :shrug:

Even if you feel it is our responsibility to disregard the sovereignity of other nations and seek to police them, you then have to consider the practicality of it. It isn't sustainable for us to maintain such an empire and to engage in all of these pre-emptive wars. Here's the defintion of pre-emptive:

Quote:


taken as a measure against something possible, anticipated, or feared; preventive; deterrent:




Were we to police Germany to prevent anyone like Hitler to rise into power? Obviously not, America cannot be in all places at once, and, to step back even futher, we shouldn't.

And when he started invading other nations? Should we have jumped at the drop of the hat to intervene? Well, it isn't possible to do that, it takes time and organization and resources to show up for war. At that point, it is simply an affair of neighboring countries. So, because Germany invaded Poland, is it America's responsibility to then intervene? Remember that definition of pre-emptive? :strokebeard:

Maybe you don't understand how relations amongst nations work, and how most sane individuals do not embrace a policy of America instantly being anywhere on this planet to police everyone to ensure that no bad guy ever does anything wrong. Eisenhower said that pre-emptive war was the invention of Hitler, and that he wouldn't listen to anyone seriously that talked about it, or something along those lines.

It is too much a stetch to simply obtrude into another country acrossed the globe like that, and it has serious, negative reactions.

Quote:


Also one must wonder what "non-interventionism" is, besides a category arbitrarily invented for sake of political conveniance.




One need not wonder if one simply do a quick definition check. An isolationist favors no alliance with other nations in any area. A non-interventionalist favors free trade with all nations, does not favor alliances that will ultimately bound us agansit our interests, and will not engage in war unless it is in defense of our terrority itself. Makes sense to me. :shrug:

Um, that's quite the distinction in definitions there, which is exactly why there are two words to represent each definition. Pull your head out of John McCain's ass - no one actually thinks the United States of America was responsible for Adolph Hitler's rise. It doesn't make sense that we would be. The United States of America isn't the alpha and omega of the planet, my friend. The fact that JohnMcCain is lashing out agansit someone that the military supports more than the rest of the GOP candidates combined has a definition to - death knell. Its a death knell of John McCain, and its a death-knell of the viewpoint that the United States of America will continue to pre-emptively go to war to police the globe.

:sorry:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7739552 - 12/10/07 07:51 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Things are so damn confusing nowadays in the post WWII era now that we have nukes everywhere. Back then you could see war coming, for the most part. I think most people knew we'd get involved in WWII eventually and were sort of mentally prepping themselves for it.

If there were no such thing as nukes... debates like this would be so much easier to just leave the world alone and allow them to deal with their own problems.

Not trusting people like Hitler and staying outta things was a little easier back then. If Hitler had nukes back then, things would be different.

The fact that shady people can press a button and kill millions of people halfway across the planet nowadays in seconds... That's what really makes me not 100% on any view that I have about getting involved or not getting involved.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
    #7739560 - 12/10/07 08:00 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Just like we do the Iraq War today--seeing as we technically lose more people in the military due to driving accidents then we have in the war.




This is the stupidest thing I've heard all year, and, with twenty-two days left to go, I think I can safely say that it will stay that way. :lol:

:what:

First off, your statistic itself makes no sense. There isn't as many people in the military as their is who drive in general. :cuckoo: You could only compare the two if you converted them into a percentage. Now, do you actually have the figures in front of you? Do you know how to figure out a percentage? Or are you simply spewing some neo-con propaganda that you read? :strokebeard:

Secondly, what is really fucked up is your ideology behind producing the statistic for our consideration in the first place.

Let's let you in on a little secret, okay?

Listen closely now....

The lives lost in the American military is not a trivial matter! :shocked:

The families of those who were lost find it a tragedy. Probably because it is. The majority of Americans want our troops out of Iraq. Do you know why?

Because Americans don't like to have their family killed unless it is for a damn good reason.

The majority of Americans have finally realized that it doesn't make sense for them to pay for their family to die unless there is an actual, plausible threat to Americans. Defying all logic, Americans are more concerned about the security of our borders than the borders of a country most Americans have been to, never been near, and never known anyone who has. Well, except, of course, when we started sending Americans to kill people who live there. :shrug:

Anyone who considers that human beings are full of value, worth, and that they should exist, be free to live life, and to have their rights as humans respected doesn't engage in pre-emptive war. War inflicts suffering on mankind, on every level of our existence. It isn't to be engaged in lightly.

If we were actually concerned with the humanitarian crisis in Iraq inflicted by the despotic rule of Saddam Hussein, we would have utilized much more effective means of influencing their country into being more democratic and free. Of course, that was never our intent, as our intent was to strike an enemy. Anyone who thinks that Iraq was the only reason America invaded Iraq, you're stupid. This has probably been even more about Iran, but its all regardless to the point I was seeking.

Sure, some order is arising from our surge and our presence after toppling the regime, but that order is one that is in relation to our presence. We weren't interested in respecting the sovereignty of the nation and using less obtrusive tools to promote the ideals that we stand for (there are less obtrusive, more effective tools, by the way :wink:). We were interested in turning the country into chaos by intruding and removing the management (that which maintains the order), and then to use our presence as the strongest force to arrange the country's organization as one that lies dependent on our country. Hhhm... maybe we wanted something valuable, and we wanted a lot of leverage? :strokebeard:

Anyone who doesn't look at America/ Iraq-Iran and doesn't see a vision of a red ant colony and a black ant colony pitted against each other is so biased of being human that they don't see their own nature. :earth: Of course, now that the planet is much more interdependent, through the miracle of mutual-interests (you know, like how utilizing a nuclear weapon harms us all), proliferated by the technological innovation that has allowed us to effectively communicate globally, we are beginning to awaken to the fact that we are all one planet, one human race. Maybe its because we all interact with each other more and we realize that emphasizing our differences instead of embracing our similarities threatens our own survival, as we see and experience how the harm we inflict upon others inevitably inflicts harm upon ourselves. Every action has a consequence. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: BrAiN]
    #7739572 - 12/10/07 08:08 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Great points. We wouldn't worry about the threat of other nations using them, even if they do have them, if we didn't give them incentive to do so. If we'd trade with them, we'd form a symbiotic relationship. It would be in both of our interests to maintain trade - because they are taking what we are giving them, for something we need or want in return. In order to maintain trade, there would need to be communication. If there is communication, there is idea-exchange. If there is idea-exchange, we become more free, because, more information means we understand more. We become more aware of the nature of reality, as we take in the output of ideas from others, which brings us to form more perspective in our perceptions of reality. The nature of reality is freedom. Humans are free. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7739635 - 12/10/07 08:47 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

>We wouldn't worry about the threat of other nations using them, even if they do have them, if we didn't give them incentive to do so.

I agree with you for the most part, but what about people like Hitler who DONT NEED an incentive to use them other than for just selfish world domination? There are always going to be leaders of countries who just want to rule the world or bring back the glory of old empires who will want to use nukes, not because they don't like you, but just because they want power? Don't these people need to be kept in check?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here.. I don't really have an answer myself.


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