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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7736730 - 12/09/07 01:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:43 PM)
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Paleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 103
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7736784 - 12/09/07 01:58 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: Another history lesson... which nation suffered the most causalities (both civilian & military) as a result of Nazi militarism, & which nation inflicted the most casualties on Nazi soldiers, & which nation handed the Nazi regime its first military loss, & where did the bulk of the military fighting (and hence casualties) in WWII occur?
Stalin killed tens of millions of his own people.
And to answer your question, the nation that suffered the most was Germany itself. That is, unless you think the Nazis and their war was good for Germany. I happen to believe that the third reich harmed the Germans more then anyone.
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7736824 - 12/09/07 02:07 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Perhaps it was overzealous League of Nations sanctions on Germany after WWI that were largely unfair and ridiculous that fueled the nazi parties ability to get the masses favor. Perhaps it was that which fueled much of the problem. I think equating WWI/WWII to the Iraq war is pretty funny.
There is no doubt our actions in the world have a reaction. I sympathize with the least amount of action in the world now, unless we would commit totally. I like the idea of US military sovereignty (Somalia comes to mind). The post soviet world just cant require the amount of paranoia that the people in power seem to try to inspire. Surely 9/11 was bad, surely we need to assert ourselves... I do not think we should be isolated. We have non-conventional means that we can wield against the non-conventional terrorists. We should pick our battles wisely. I do like how McCain calls Bush out on being a bit soft with his policies. If we are REALLY engaging in all out war lets do it that way. Otherwise, I wish the leadership would refrain from using conventional military and trying to setup nations.
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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Paleocon
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: andrewss]
#7736844 - 12/09/07 02:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
andrewss said: Perhaps it was overzealous League of Nations sanctions on Germany after WWI that were largely unfair and ridiculous that fueled the nazi parties ability to get the masses favor. Perhaps it was that which fueled much of the problem. I think equating WWI/WWII to the Iraq war is pretty funny.
Regardless of the causes Hitler could have been stopped if we had not taken an isolationist stance. It was our being overly-cautious after world war 1 that lead to his rise.
If Ron Paul had been president, he'd have advocated ignoring Hitler, just like the establishment did back then. So McCain is technically correct when he says Ron Paul's policies, had they been in place during the 1930-1940s would have helped Hitler.
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7736853 - 12/09/07 02:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:43 PM)
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Minstrel
Man of Science


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7736861 - 12/09/07 02:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Paleocon said:
Quote:
John McCain goes after Ron Paul with a friggin' crowbar, saying his isolationist attitude is the sort of thing that allowed Hitler to come to power. Says the Thanksgiving message he got from the troops was, "let us win." Wild applause, some boos.
Paul cites his donations from active-duty servicemen, says there's a difference between isolationism and non-interventionism.
http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MjFlMWExYWIxYzg2MWI1NDU1N2U3NWI2Yzc2OWZlNWM=
I must have I have to agree with McCain's assesment. The fact is Ron Paul is making the classic mistake the US after losing world war 1, namely calling for a retreat into itself, while ignoring real threats like Iran and Al Qaeda. Remember we did the same thing with Hitler and Stalin after our military ventures in the First World War.
Also one must wonder what "non-interventionism" is, besides a category arbitrarily invented for sake of political conveniance.
Hitler's rise to power was allowed to happen by the German people. He hijacked the government and brainwashed the people, with a policy of war and protection from unseen threats.
To blame Hitler's rise on non-intervention of foreign states, likened to a gas-station hold up, would be like the clerk getting heisted blaming other patrons of the store for not stopping the robbery.
People like you supporting this agenda of death and control are the reasons people like Hitler come to power.
Take your propaganda elsewhere Neocon, we all see right though it.
Edited by Minstrel (12/09/07 02:20 PM)
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7736870 - 12/09/07 02:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:43 PM)
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7736888 - 12/09/07 02:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Paleocon said:
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andrewss said: Perhaps it was overzealous League of Nations sanctions on Germany after WWI that were largely unfair and ridiculous that fueled the nazi parties ability to get the masses favor. Perhaps it was that which fueled much of the problem. I think equating WWI/WWII to the Iraq war is pretty funny.
Regardless of the causes Hitler could have been stopped if we had not taken an isolationist stance. It was our being overly-cautious after world war 1 that lead to his rise.
If Ron Paul had been president, he'd have advocated ignoring Hitler, just like the establishment did back then. So McCain is technically correct when he says Ron Paul's policies, had they been in place during the 1930-1940s would have helped Hitler.
So what would you wanted us to do? Occupy Germany after WWI and make sure we don't see anything bad happening? I would assume that there were spies that were seeing what was happening. Yeah isolationism "allowed" Hitler to come to power in a very arbitrary sense. How is this even relevant at all to Iraq? Haven't we found that Saddam didn't even have much of anything to be concerned about? Even then this is the 21st century, not 1920.... I think we can protect ourselves well. Setting up nations seems to get you into quagmires easily, usually a public doesnt like to see soldiers die for a less than 100% obviously necessary military action. Shit happens, I think we need to choose our battles wisely. Did not Cheney himself talk about why we DIDNT go into Iraq after the first gulf war, oh yeah because he kinda agreed... I wonder what changed his mind?
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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Paleocon
Stranger

Registered: 12/09/07
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7736892 - 12/09/07 02:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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EntheogenicPeace said: No, you didn't answer the question. But nevertheless the initial argument that Ron Paul's policies would have helped the Nazis is stupid. If the U.S. had stayed out of WWII completely... the Nazis still would've lost.
Actually no. The US even before D-Day had to supply the USSR with arms, supplies and munitions to avoid having them taken out earlier in the war.
Edited by Paleocon (12/09/07 02:25 PM)
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Paleocon
Stranger

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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Minstrel]
#7736906 - 12/09/07 02:28 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Minstrel said:
Quote:
Paleocon said:
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John McCain goes after Ron Paul with a friggin' crowbar, saying his isolationist attitude is the sort of thing that allowed Hitler to come to power. Says the Thanksgiving message he got from the troops was, "let us win." Wild applause, some boos.
Paul cites his donations from active-duty servicemen, says there's a difference between isolationism and non-interventionism.
http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MjFlMWExYWIxYzg2MWI1NDU1N2U3NWI2Yzc2OWZlNWM=
I must have I have to agree with McCain's assesment. The fact is Ron Paul is making the classic mistake the US after losing world war 1, namely calling for a retreat into itself, while ignoring real threats like Iran and Al Qaeda. Remember we did the same thing with Hitler and Stalin after our military ventures in the First World War.
Also one must wonder what "non-interventionism" is, besides a category arbitrarily invented for sake of political conveniance.
Hitler's rise to power was allowed to happen by the German people. He hijacked the government and brainwashed the people, with a policy of war and protection from unseen threats.
To blame Hitler's rise on non-intervention of foreign states, likened to a gas-station hold up, would be like the clerk getting heisted blaming other patrons of the store for not stopping the robbery.
It is true that Hitler's rise was allowed by the German people, but our isolationist policies didn't help. Even if the German's allowed him to rise, we could have stopped him.
We could have stopped him when he broke the Versailles Treaty and reformed the German army. Or when he annexed Austria. Or when he annexed Czechoslavakia. It was our ignoring Hitler's obvious expansionistic actions which created a larger problem later on.
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Paleocon
Stranger

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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: andrewss]
#7736913 - 12/09/07 02:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
andrewss said:
Quote:
Paleocon said:
Quote:
andrewss said: Perhaps it was overzealous League of Nations sanctions on Germany after WWI that were largely unfair and ridiculous that fueled the nazi parties ability to get the masses favor. Perhaps it was that which fueled much of the problem. I think equating WWI/WWII to the Iraq war is pretty funny.
Regardless of the causes Hitler could have been stopped if we had not taken an isolationist stance. It was our being overly-cautious after world war 1 that lead to his rise.
If Ron Paul had been president, he'd have advocated ignoring Hitler, just like the establishment did back then. So McCain is technically correct when he says Ron Paul's policies, had they been in place during the 1930-1940s would have helped Hitler.
So what would you wanted us to do? Occupy Germany after WWI and make sure we don't see anything bad happening? I would assume that there were spies that were seeing what was happening.
We ended up occupying Germany anyways.
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Minstrel
Man of Science


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7736929 - 12/09/07 02:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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So, Neocon, if I were to be following your ideology, that it is my duty to prevent the rise of evil in other sovereign countries, America would be first on the list to topple.
America should have been stopped after they usurped Afghanistan, or before hijacked Iraq, and certainly before they go after Iran. Not to mention murdering countless democratically elected leaders in South America to install despots. This list of atrocities goes on.
Take a good long look in the mirror.
You should listen to Ron Paul's statement that America needs to consider how their policy would look if it were being done to them by other states. You need to understand why America is globally loathed.
Edited by Minstrel (12/09/07 02:37 PM)
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Paleocon
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Minstrel]
#7736953 - 12/09/07 02:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Minstrel said: So, Neocon, if I were to be following your ideology, that it is my duty to prevent the rise of evil in other sovereign countries, America would be first on the list to topple.
Try criticizing your country in the US vs. criticizing your country in China.
In America you can make change by peaceful reform. In China, any attempt at peaceful reform will be met with violent execution. The difference then is whether peaceful reform is possible or not. And the only justification for violence, then, is to the point where non-violent reform then becomes a possibility for the people living in the system.
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Minstrel
Man of Science


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7736970 - 12/09/07 02:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Paleocon said:
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Minstrel said: So, Neocon, if I were to be following your ideology, that it is my duty to prevent the rise of evil in other sovereign countries, America would be first on the list to topple.
Try criticizing your country in the US vs. criticizing your country in China.
In America you can make change by peaceful reform. In China, any attempt at peaceful reform will be met with violent execution. The difference then is whether peaceful reform is possible or not. And the only justification for violence, then, is to the point where non-violent reform then becomes a possibility for the people living in the system.
Maybe, but there are no illusions of China being benevolent and diplomatic.
Nothing compares to the hypocrisy which Amerika is pulling world wide.
Edited by Minstrel (12/09/07 02:43 PM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7737030 - 12/09/07 02:58 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Paleocon said:
Quote:
Minstrel said: So, Neocon, if I were to be following your ideology, that it is my duty to prevent the rise of evil in other sovereign countries, America would be first on the list to topple.
Try criticizing your country in the US vs. criticizing your country in China.
In America you can make change by peaceful reform. In China, any attempt at peaceful reform will be met with violent execution.
Believe it or not, people in China are allowed to criticize the government on some issues. It may not be as free as it is here in America, but it's not like North Korea either. Get this: they even have elections where candidates debate the issues. People even can sue their government.
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7737076 - 12/09/07 03:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:44 PM)
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7737087 - 12/09/07 03:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:44 PM)
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7737142 - 12/09/07 03:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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The U.S. government under the leadership of FDR (who was hated by many leading U.S. industrialists at the time) wouldn't have needed to supply such enormous amounts of military supplies to the Allied Powers had Ford & GM not built such impressive, advanced & efficient military equipment for the Nazis to overtake so much of Europe so quickly.
No matter how many times I read this, it comes out as Nazis using Ford and General Motors vehicles to conquer Europe. I know that can't possibly be what you are trying to say, but I can't figure out just what you are trying to say. Can you rephrase, please?
Phred
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Phred]
#7737158 - 12/09/07 03:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Heh.
That is pretty much what it says.
Thats an amusing little theory.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
#7737273 - 12/09/07 04:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
SoY said:
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by which time it was too late
I beg to differ. Hitler is dead and the Allies won WWII. Not too late.
Millions and millions of people found out just how late. Millions upon millions upon millions. For you, not too late. You are cognizant of the fact that you are not the only person who was ever born aren't you?Quote:
Also, we stood idly by because we were not prepared to enter the war. We had our thumbs up our butts because of FDR and the poor military budget.
Sounds like......Bill Clinton. Peace dividend and all. If the nutlogs get a nuke and send it to NY it will be millions and millions again.
**yes it was too late for these guys....
Unbelievable.
There were plenty of isolationists and they were quite useful to Hitler. I do believe that they were the reason the term "fifth column" was coined, but I could be wrong. Ron Paul is useless to anybody. He has no power and no effect.
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