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Paleocon
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Registered: 12/09/07
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
#7736033 - 12/09/07 10:37 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
SoY said: How was Vietnam ours to worry about?
Because the communists were going to spread. They spread into 'Nam, China, North Korea, and Eastern Europe. They even tried to invade Afghanistan.
Marxism by definition is a missionary belief system. Under Marxism people have to spread communism in order to defeat capitalism. Anyone who thinks otherwise simply doesn't know their history.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7736047 - 12/09/07 10:41 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Where did Communism spread from Vietnam?
It seems to me the one thing they did after that was have a conflict with Cambodia in which they deposed Pol Pot.
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7736050 - 12/09/07 10:41 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I agree with some of what you're saying. But my point is that there are many places which we need to be *saving* and are not even talking about. It's a global evolution thing. The U.S. and all our allies (pussies that they are) need to stand up for human rights and democracy and make Earth a nice place to vacation. We pretend that our only goal is to propagate freedom, yet we do nothing in the places that need us the most...
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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Paleocon
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Silversoul]
#7736057 - 12/09/07 10:43 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said: Where did Communism spread from Vietnam?
Cambodia. The Vietnamese took over Cambodia from the Khmer Rouge.
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7736061 - 12/09/07 10:45 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah. That fucked up America for sure.
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7736086 - 12/09/07 10:48 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Then you should vote for the guy who made the most ignorant statement of this election cycle, if you think he was on it.
Comparing that to this is like comparing orange soda to mink fur. Not even in the same ball park.
Islamic extremists do not like our setting up Military bases in their countries. They see it as an occupation. They do not like us installing puppet governments in their countries. They do not like our western government, influencing their leaders.
Intervening in the internal affairs of other nations, and "occupying" them, is the sort of interventionism that has spawned hate and anger in Islamic extremists. In this case, interventionism is what caused the problem.
You're not going to solve it by adding more fuel to the fire.
Al Queda is not a country. It's a rogue group of individuals, acting Independently spread around the world.
Ron Paul wants special forces going after them specifically and individually. Ron Paul supported going after al Queda in Afghanistan. he still wants us going after Bin laden, who is now hiding out in Pakistan. Why are we not doing that?
McCain used an emotionally charged word " Hitler" just like Giuliani uses the emotionally charged word 9/11 a lot, to get people to move into a highly charged emotional and irrational state, so it's easier for them to go along with whatever is being said.
Al Quedas numbers were in the hundreds before we went into Iraq. Our continued interventionist foreign policy has now created tens of thousands of them.
The current administration is acting like neo isolationists right before our eyes and nobody says a word. There are leaders we will not negotiate/talk with, we have trade sanctions put on them, and this is the sort of stuff that cuts us off from the rest of the world.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Paleocon
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
#7736093 - 12/09/07 10:51 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
SoY said: Yeah. That fucked up America for sure.
Regardless of if it fucked up American millions of people in Cambodia and Vietnam lost their lives, and millions more live under totalitarian rule to this day.
And if you don't think their problems will ever effect us you are only thinking in the short-term. Look at North Korea-they are trying to acquire long-range nukes. And when the technology gets cheap enough Vietnam will do the same. We can't contain nuclear power forever. And mark my words the day the commies in 'Nam acquire ICBMs they will demand tribute to preserve their otherwise failing economies. Do you think for a moment the leaders their would hesitate to use their military force to preserve their positions of power?
Seeing as their deaths at the hands of an angry mob would come the moment they fell from their party positions I do not doubt it for a moment.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7736108 - 12/09/07 10:55 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Paleocon said:
Quote:
Silversoul said: Where did Communism spread from Vietnam?
Cambodia. The Vietnamese took over Cambodia from the Khmer Rouge.
Cambodia was already socialist. And if you're here to defend the Khmer Rouge, well, that's just fucked up.
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Paleocon
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Silversoul]
#7736137 - 12/09/07 11:04 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
Paleocon said:
Quote:
Silversoul said: Where did Communism spread from Vietnam?
Cambodia. The Vietnamese took over Cambodia from the Khmer Rouge.
Cambodia was already socialist. And if you're here to defend the Khmer Rouge, well, that's just fucked up.
I am not defending the Khmer Rouge, I am simply noting how Communism is expansionist. The fact is the Vietnamese invaded Cambodia, and if given half a chance would have tried to invade every other country on earth.
Just like the Soviet Union invaded Eastern Europe, and tried to invade Afghanistan.
If you honestly believe the higher ups in those commie countries don't want to invade and enslave more people, you are 100% naive. Every chance they get they invade others, and they don't care how many lives they have to throw away.
This is completely different from the US which has the power to invade every other country on earth and chooses not to.
Edited by Paleocon (12/09/07 11:05 AM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
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Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7736171 - 12/09/07 11:14 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
you are 100% naive
Ironic statement of the year?
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This is completely different from the US which has the power to invade every other country on earth and chooses not to.

Have you taken a good look at just how much of our resources we're losing on Iraq? Do you honestly think we could invade China tomorrow and win? The US is just as imperialist and expansionist as the Soviet Union, and we've continued to be that way long after their collapse.
Also, the Vietnamese conflict with Cambodia was over a border dispute.
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Paleocon
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Silversoul]
#7736193 - 12/09/07 11:20 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Silversoul said: Have you taken a good look at just how much of our resources we're losing on Iraq?
You don't go into a war over resources. If we went into Iraq to profit that would be stealing, and believe it or not, stealing is wrong.
And a lot of that loss is because our NATO allies are not helping us. Not only that, but we have people in our own country trying to sabotage the war effort.
And the only reason they do so is because they think an American's life is worth more then an Iraqis. Not only that, but they also think it is impossible that some day Al Qaeda will be at our door step with a nuclear bomb.
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Silversoul said:Do you honestly think we could invade China tomorrow and win?
Not tomorrow, but if we fully committed to it, and planned it well you bet your ass we would win. We could sink their subs, and bunker bust their underground ICBMs. And what could China do then?
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Silversoul said:The US is just as imperialist and expansionist as the Soviet Union, and we've continued to be that way long after their collapse.
Bull. If that was true, we could have invaded Europe and Canada a long time ago.
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7736194 - 12/09/07 11:20 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Have you taken a good look at just how much of our resources we're losing on Iraq? Do you honestly think we could invade China tomorrow and win? The US is just as imperialist and expansionist as the Soviet Union, and we've continued to be that way long after their collapse.
And if we continue at this pace we too will eventually collapse.
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
#7736198 - 12/09/07 11:22 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Paleocon said: You don't go into a war over resources.
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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Paleocon
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
#7736213 - 12/09/07 11:25 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
SoY said:
Quote:
Have you taken a good look at just how much of our resources we're losing on Iraq? Do you honestly think we could invade China tomorrow and win? The US is just as imperialist and expansionist as the Soviet Union, and we've continued to be that way long after their collapse.
And if we continue at this pace we too will eventually collapse.
Only because of our inflated social security budget.
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Paleocon
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
#7736217 - 12/09/07 11:26 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
SoY said:
Quote:
Paleocon said: You don't go into a war over resources.
Let me make the obvious more explicit- you aren't supposed to go into war over resources. I'm sorry, but when I was younger I was taught stealing was wrong. Maybe your parents raised you differently.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7736224 - 12/09/07 11:29 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
You don't go into a war over resources. If we went into Iraq to profit that would be stealing, and believe it or not, stealing is wrong.
Way to completely miss the point of my statement. I'm not talking about stealing resources. I'm talking about how much of our budget we're pouring into this quagmire.
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And a lot of that loss is because our NATO allies are not helping us. Not only that, but we have people in our own country trying to sabotage the war effort.
If by "sabotage" you mean bring our troops home safe, then guilty as charged. But that really has nothing to do with all the resources we're wasting on this war.
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And the only reason they do so is because they think an American's life is worth more then an Iraqis.
Really? And that's why we want to stop killing Iraqis?
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Not only that, but they also think it is impossible that some day Al Qaeda will be at our door step with a nuclear bomb.
Seems irrelevant to this case, since Al Qaeda is not based in Iraq, nor does Iraq have nuclear weapons.
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Not tomorrow, but if we fully committed to it, and planned it well you bet your ass we would win. We could sink their subs, and bunker bust their underground ICBMs. And what could China do then?
Invade us with their massive army?
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Bull. If that was true, we could have invaded Europe and Canada a long time ago.
Is it seriously possible to be stupid? By your logic, the Soviet Union would have invaded China long ago.
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Paleocon
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Silversoul]
#7736234 - 12/09/07 11:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said: Way to completely miss the point of my statement. I'm not talking about stealing resources. I'm talking about how much of our budget we're pouring into this quagmire.
It is only a quagmire because we aren't putting our full effort into it. Do you honestly think if we committed to winning that we would lose in Iraq? Do you honestly think a nation which beat Japan and Nazi Germany would lose to some tiny third world country?
If we are losing the war it is because we choose to, nothing more.
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Silversoul said:Is it seriously possible to be stupid? By your logic, the Soviet Union would have invaded China long ago.
Stalin and Mao hated eachother. And the Soviet Union did try to control China. Do you not know your history?
I'm not surprised seeing the state of our public school systems, but in case you didn't know Russia did help the Chinese overthrow the Nationalist government, and Russia did try to control policy in China. They couldn't because Mao was just as ruthless as Stalin and used China's sheer numbers to deter the red giant, but believe me either would have taken the other if they were able.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7736245 - 12/09/07 11:38 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
It is only a quagmire because we aren't putting our full effort into it. Do you honestly think if we committed to winning that we would lose in Iraq? Do you honestly think a nation which beat Japan and Nazi Germany would lose to some tiny third world country?
If we are losing the war it is because we choose to, nothing more.
We managed to depose Saddam. Winning against an army is easy for us. Winning against an insurgency...well, that's a bit like Britain's situation in the American Revolution.
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Stalin and Mao hated eachother. And the Soviet Union did try to control China. Do you not know your history?
I'm aware of that. Control is not invasion. If it were, then your statement about Canada is null and void, as we do try to control them.
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I'm not surprised seeing the state of our public school systems
I went to private school.
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7736249 - 12/09/07 11:38 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
SoY said:
Quote:
Paleocon said: You don't go into a war over resources.
Almost every single war in history has been fought over resources and/or territory. Man I am starting to wonder where you received your history/social studies education.....
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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Paleocon
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Silversoul]
#7736265 - 12/09/07 11:44 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said: We managed to depose Saddam. Winning against an army is easy for us. Winning against an insurgency...well, that's a bit like Britain's situation in the American Revolution.
The Nazis had an insurgency as well. Ever heard of the Werewolves?
Here, read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf
We can beat a resistance force if we really commit to it. We did so before against what was-at one time-considered the most powerful and fanatical army on earth.
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Silversoul said:I'm aware of that. Control is not invasion. If it were, then your statement about Canada is null and void, as we do try to control them.
And why not? If america was so expansionist, like you say, why not invade Canada and turn them all into our slaves?
Every dictatorship in history invades other countries directly whenever it is able. The Nazis did it, the Japanese did it, the British did it, the Soviets did it, as did the Persians, the Romans, and the Spainish. That is itself proof of the fact that you can control a country directly, and whenever a real empire can it does so.
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Silversoul said:I went to private school.
Well then we are worse off then I thought.
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