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Paleocon
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Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain
#7735835 - 12/09/07 09:30 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
John McCain goes after Ron Paul with a friggin' crowbar, saying his isolationist attitude is the sort of thing that allowed Hitler to come to power. Says the Thanksgiving message he got from the troops was, "let us win." Wild applause, some boos.
Paul cites his donations from active-duty servicemen, says there's a difference between isolationism and non-interventionism.
http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MjFlMWExYWIxYzg2MWI1NDU1N2U3NWI2Yzc2OWZlNWM=
I must have I have to agree with McCain's assesment. The fact is Ron Paul is making the classic mistake the US after losing world war 1, namely calling for a retreat into itself, while ignoring real threats like Iran and Al Qaeda. Remember we did the same thing with Hitler and Stalin after our military ventures in the First World War.
Also one must wonder what "non-interventionism" is, besides a category arbitrarily invented for sake of political conveniance.
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



Registered: 06/01/06
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Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7735849 - 12/09/07 09:33 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Iran and Al Qaeda are not even in the same ball park as Hitler and Stalin. They pose minimal threat to our national security. Al Qaeda would pose even less of a threat if we beefed up our home defenses like Paul is advocating.
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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Paleocon
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
#7735870 - 12/09/07 09:41 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
SoY said: Iran and Al Qaeda are not even in the same ball park as Hitler and Stalin.
Not yet, but bear in mind that Hitler started as a small fry in Nazi Germany as well. Indeed we stood by idly as he annexed several countries, and didn't respond until he invaded Poland-by which time it was too late.
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
#7735886 - 12/09/07 09:45 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hitler and Stalin were megalomaniacs in positions of great power, with great resources and no checks and balances, not a bunch of radical religious thugs.
You must also keep in mind how America appears to the rest of the world. You have to realize that our actions around the globe have cast a negative light upon us. We are viewed as a hypocritical, imperialistic rouge state with a tremendous amount of resources and firepower. We have been tolerated so far because we seemingly use our power in a benevolent manner to aid others. But, our reputation is crumbling and our internal stability is deteriorating as well. America is pushing its luck with its citizens and with the rest of the world. At this pace, I believe it's only a matter of time before everyone becomes irate with us...[/rant]
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
#7735891 - 12/09/07 09:48 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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by which time it was too late
I beg to differ. Hitler is dead and the Allies won WWII. Not too late.
Also, we stood idly by because we were not prepared to enter the war. We had our thumbs up our butts because of FDR and the poor military budget.
**yes it was too late for these guys....
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
Edited by SoY (12/09/07 09:49 AM)
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Paleocon
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
#7735916 - 12/09/07 09:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
SoY said:
Quote:
by which time it was too late
I beg to differ. Hitler is dead and the Allies won WWII. Not too late.
After millions of people died. Including six million Jews in Europe.
And also after the Soviet Union invaded and occupied all of Eastern Europe.
You may as well say we are not too late catching someone who is a serial killer-even if they showed warning signs when young (like torturing smaller animals)-after they kill a dozen or so children.
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SoY
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7735944 - 12/09/07 10:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Dude, I don't know if you're familiar with your U.S. history, but we were unable to get into it right away.
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
#7735947 - 12/09/07 10:11 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Under your definition of *too late* we shouldn't even bother with places like Darfur, because even if we intervened, it will still be *too late*...
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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Paleocon
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
#7735957 - 12/09/07 10:14 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
SoY said: Dude, I don't know if you're familiar with your U.S. history, but we were unable to get into it right away.
And why is that exactly? At that time Germany was nothing-it was in the middle of a depression, and its army was barely starting to build up (keep in mind Germany wasn't even technically allowed to have an army after the Versailles Treaty). We could have squashed Germany like the pipsqueak it was easily. We simply chose not to due to the cowardice of our politicians.
Though one cannot blame them entirely, as the people were also over-reacting to the amount of soldiers we lost in World War 1.
Just like we do the Iraq War today--seeing as we technically lose more people in the military due to driving accidents then we have in the war.
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
#7735961 - 12/09/07 10:16 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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A strong international security force is required to prevent such atrocities from occurring. The only problem is that either such a force would be mismanaged and impotent (*cough*UN*cough*) or it would be used in a greedy, evil way.
As Jimi said, "when the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."
Yeah, we're definitely not there yet.
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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Silversoul
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7735964 - 12/09/07 10:16 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think Vietnam is a much more appropriate allegory, and so do most of the experts who've studied this war.
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
#7735966 - 12/09/07 10:18 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes I agree with you that we should have held them to the Versailles Treaty and possibly prevented it then.
But it needed to be a coalition of the Allies putting their thumb down, not just America. The entire fucking world needs to grow up and not let these evil people do what they please.
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
Edited by SoY (12/09/07 10:21 AM)
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Paleocon
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
#7735977 - 12/09/07 10:20 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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SoY said: A strong international security force is required to prevent such atrocities from occurring.
The US and NATO are such a strong force. And if you think we mismanage things try vacationing in Iran. Then you can see what tyranny is really like.
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7735979 - 12/09/07 10:21 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Why have you been to Iran?
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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Paleocon
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Silversoul]
#7735989 - 12/09/07 10:23 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Silversoul said: I think Vietnam is a much more appropriate allegory, and so do most of the experts who've studied this war.
Keep in mind after we lost Vietnam millions of Vietnamese were executed by the communist party. I hope the protestors were happy about that. In any event we lost Vietnam because of people playing politics.
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SoY
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
#7736000 - 12/09/07 10:27 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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No one (yes I mean the U.S.) does shit about all the dictators and human rights violators around the world (some of them are even our allies). How is your security force effective?
-Sudan -Burma -Zimbabwe -Turkmenistan -Eq. Guinea -N. Korea -Saudi Arabia -Libya -Pakistan
...to name a few bass-ackward countries
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
Edited by SoY (12/09/07 10:33 AM)
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7736005 - 12/09/07 10:29 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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How was Vietnam ours to worry about? Oh dear it's the Red Threat! We are all going to become communist and die!!!
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



Registered: 06/01/06
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
#7736008 - 12/09/07 10:30 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either we need to crack down on all these thugs, or just back off and let nature fix itself. I'm for the enforcement of decency. We claim to be the champions of freedom and democracy, but only when it benefits us. And then we try not to think about the collateral damage.
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
Edited by SoY (12/09/07 10:32 AM)
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Paleocon
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: SoY]
#7736026 - 12/09/07 10:35 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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That is because people in the United States are selfish and do not adhere to their duty. They are also racist in the sense that we consider the lives of people here more important then elsewhere.
Keep in mind that the US military is the single most powerful secular force in the world. And keep in mind how many countries we have been able to save when we put our efforts into it.
We saved Japan. We saved Russia. We saved Europe from the Nazis. We saved Afghanistan from the Soviet Union (only to have them betray us). We saved ourselves from the Brits. We saved the entire Western Hemisphere from European royalty via the Monroe Doctrine. And we saved the Philipines from the Spainish Empire.
We even saved South Korea from the Communists. Indeed, if you want to see our success, just compare South Korea to North Korea. The difference is as stark as night and day. South Korea is 28 times wealthier, it has far more political freedom, and it's people are not utterly enslaved by a psycopathic madman who threatens to turn the entire country to glass in an nuclear exchanfe. Nearly 5 million children have starved to death in North Korea-vs. South Korea which has one of the best educational systems in the world. Wherever we intervene we make things better.
We defeated both the Communist and Fascist empires, and now we face Muslim theocracy. Do not be lulled into the false comforts offered by the short-sighted. Going pure free market may help us in the short-term, but the military exists for a reason, and that reason is that not everyone respects reason and plays by the rules. Those people are already plotting against us, and mark my words they will one day acquire nukes and attack us.
I may like being rich, but you can't spend the money if you're dead.
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Silversoul
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Re: Ron Paul's isolationism would have helped Hitler according to John McCain [Re: Paleocon]
#7736032 - 12/09/07 10:37 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Paleocon said:
Quote:
Silversoul said: I think Vietnam is a much more appropriate allegory, and so do most of the experts who've studied this war.
Keep in mind after we lost Vietnam millions of Vietnamese were executed by the communist party. I hope the protestors were happy about that. In any event we lost Vietnam because of people playing politics.
And yet today, we have open trade with Vietnam, which is becoming more capitalist. Proof that trade beats war.
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