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stopamerica.org
    #773373 -

stopamerica.org


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GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: GabbaDj]
    #773451 -

GabbaDj,

As much as I hate war I realize it's sometimes necessary to secure freedom for ourselves and our posterity. We can not permit foreigh terror groups to commit acts of war against us and then do nothing about it. There's a time to kill, and there's a time to heal...


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #773479 -

As much as I hate a shadow government and secret military ops I would rather see our specialy trained boys assinate terror groups from within. I dont like the idea of createing a larger CIA or NSA but thats how terrorism should be faught. Not by spending over 250BILLION dollars on bombs which eachwith al 40 innocent to 1 enemy kill ratio.


--------------------
GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             

Edited by GabbaDj (07/24/02 12:59 PM)

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: GabbaDj]
    #773494 -

Thanks for letting me know there are still people who know there are times not to go to war. The greed sickens me.

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: GabbaDj]
    #773511 -

Shadow Gov as bad secret military ops in US cities worse. For years people thought the stories of secret ops complete with black helicopters was made up by kooks but it's now been revealed to be true. Those things are our domestic enemies and they must be dealt with as well. The CIA and NSA are underfunded. Clinton cut their budget by half and as a result we were vulnerable to 9-11 and didn't know about it in time. Good intel saves American lives. It is necessary. Bombs cost money. Smart bombs cost a lot of money. I question your allegation that they have a 40:1 innocent to enemy kill ratio. If you drop a bomb on an enemy barricks you kill all the enemy and no civilians. If you drop a bomb on a wedding party a high ranking Al Qaeda is attending then you'de probably have the civie killrate you mentioned, but we don't do that.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: perplexed]
    #775632 -

Perplexed, surely you are not talking about this war being just about our greed are you?
The greed is what allowed other countrys to harbor viloent terrorist groups. The same groups that attacked us in the first place.
These country's continue to harbor terrorists, even to the point of publicly establishing an alibi for them. There is no attempt to arrest, investigate or in any way assist the countrys they have attacked in an investigation. They are given "carte blanche" to commit whatever mayhem their filthy minds can conjure up; as long as they have money to pay the rent.

It is in no way an immoral act to respond to a deadly attack with deadly force; to disuade terrorists or their "landlords" from committing these acts or from harboring persons who would commit these brutal attacks. "There is no such thing as a fair fight involving death".

The one power that our constitution gives to the federal government and that I whole heartedly accept is, "defend our borders".
I have no wish to see our country thrust into a war in which we have no experience, I've been there, done that. I also have no wish to see another country decimated by the might of the United States military; death and war are ugly and affect everyone no matter how far you think you may be removed.

But, there are few options now, it is no longer a civil war contained within the confines of the "Arab Nations" it has come home to the borders of our country and it has cost lives of brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, uncles, aunts, cousins, husbands and wives. These are the people you work with, play with, love, and sometimes toke with. These are our neighbors and friends and the cost of killing them is the forfeiture of your life, and the accountability of those nations that would harbor these assasins.

I don't hate "them" because they are different or because they worship a different god than I. I don't hate them because they dislike our countrys involvement in their affairs, in fact, in this matter, I agree with them. Truth be told I don't hate them at all, I am disgusted, frightened, angry and hurt that my neighbors were killed by them.

I am willing to listen to their grievences as I hope that they are willing to listen to mine. I am not,however, willing to listen to anything at the end of a gun, not now, not EVER. If one initiates violence then one has given up ones right to liberty and freedom, and, in the most aggregious case, your life as well.

I don't stand on a "soap box" and scream USA,USA,USA; I don't say to people "imagine the odacity of those idiots, to attack the United States". I don't beleive that the United States is forever removed from the rest of the world in our naivete', that we are immune from the pain and suffering of the world simply because we, as a nation, beleive in our "moral superiority". This is the height of huberious, and of ignorance.

I don't beleive that our nation's stance to "bring to justice those that perpetrated this monsterous deed and those who harbor them" is or should be one of hatred. Our stance is and should be one of outrage, pain beyond belief and the moral right to defend ourselves and our borders to the extent that all involved in terrorism shall say to each other "Imagine the odacity of those idiots, to attack the United States in that manner".

I don't hate, I don't beleive this nation hates, but if you attack my neighbor
I WILL KICK YOUR F@#KIN' BUTT BACK INTO THE STONE AGE.

And, if you beleive that we should turn the other cheek, then please stay the h^&ll out of my way.
------------------
"He that would make his own liberty secure,
must guard even his enemy from oppression;
for if he violates this duty, he establishes
a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: mr freedom]
    #775696 -

** applause **

Very well said, Mr. Freedom.

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: GabbaDj]
    #775974 -

If we find you here tonight;They'll find you here in the morning.


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Well...Maybe just a little.

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: mr freedom]
    #776462 -

Yea, its a violent cycle.....a shame that the "sybol of freedom" started it.

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: perplexed]
    #776524 -

I don't think that is a factual statement. The U.S. has been involved in conflicts, but we have not, purposley bombed civilian targets; though mistakes will happen.

While I do believe that our federal government acts like terrorists on occasion, even they have not seen fit to involve themselves beyond that which could rightly be construed as U.N. type peace keeping.

Had the attack been more in line with a declared war situation, it may have been justifiable, but that was not the case. It was what it was, an act of cowardice. That is the significant difference between what al-queda did and what (imo) the Palastinians are doing with suicide bombing. Yes, suicide bombers, target civilian targets, but they are only trying to defend themselves with what is at hand. (we can save this for a later discussion if you like).

To the war at hand, it IS an act of self-defense. We, those like myself, will deal with the ridiculous laws being passed in congress when the time comes to do so. Until then, it is the duty of the fed to destroy any lasting remanants of the al-queda network that remains. I am concerned that we will invade Saddam shortly, this cannot be considered an act of self-defense; not yet. So, I am waiting for what and who, Saddam will attack so that we, the fed, not citizens, will have some sort of excuse to bomb that country next.

I am not unaware of our stupidity to engage in "warfare diplomacy", I hate it, I do all one man can to change our foriegn policy dictates but I am not alone and this is encourageing. But, that aside, unless I harm you or wave a gun in your face you should respect me. If you don't, then "CRY HAVOC, AND UNLEASH THE DOGS OF WAR" for I will be there and you won't like it; not one damn bit.

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: mr freedom]
    #776730 -

That was an awesome post Freedom! Although It doesn't change the fact, that the chances are that this "war on Terrorism" is nothing but a grab for oil.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: mr freedom]
    #777476 -

"The U.S. has been involved in conflicts, but we have not, purposley bombed civilian targets; though mistakes will happen."

I heard something about secret bombings in Cambodia. CIA estimated that 500.000 civilans were killed and 1.000.000 died because of hunger that was a consequence of these bombings. But as you said, mistakes happen.

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: zeronio]
    #778248 -

Boy, I was sure talking out of my butt on that one. I'm glad you didn't call me on it to hard. How about Nagasaki, Hiroshima?

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: mr freedom]
    #779558 -

>>>> How about Nagasaki, Hiroshima? <<<<<

How about the Dozens of Afghan villages bombed due to bad intell bought from rival warlords.

No one knows just how much money the CIA has given to warlords in Afghanistan for information but we do know that their have been more than 600 recreational vehicals over 3000 satelite cell phones given. We continue to give Afghan warlords gifts for information even though we know they are on the take from both sides. They tell us where the enemy is and we drop our bombs but they have already been paid also by the enemy to sneak them out of harms way.


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GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: GabbaDj]
    #779643 -

Whoa, I don't want to cause any confusion about my stance here. I was being simplistic in my comparisons about the U.S. and terrorists. On the surface, the difference can be recognized; acts of war vs. terrorism. A deeper look will, of course, provide much more areas of similarity. To be clear, what we, the U.S., does in times of war are justifiable; even if they are extreme. The reason's behind our use of nukes in WWll were and are justifiable, we were at war, a declared war. The bombing of civilians, mistaken or not, in Afghanastan, is justifiable, we have declared war.

War is terrible, war is evil, war is dispicable; there can be NO grounds for INITIATING a war. At the same time, self-defense, of life or nation, demands that no punches be pulled. You don't simply shake your finger at those who would, willingly, kill thousands of people in your nation, and hope that they don't do it again. You KILL THEM. That's right, you kill them, this is what war is; who can kill the most the fastest, or cause the greatest suffering, WINS.

How's that for the ugly side of humanity?

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: mr freedom]
    #780449 -

I wasnt really pointing to you just pointing to the part of this war I hate the most.

What I hate most.
1) The CIA has been giving out bribes to Afghan warlords to give up information about Al-Qida(?). So far MILLIONS have been given along with SUV's and Hummers, satelite cell phone and other "gifts". The warloards dont like us and dont respect us, For the most part they have been giving us falce information and directing us to bomb their rival villages, which we gladly do because they told us that the enemy was their.

2) The idea of all my tax dollars going to make bombs that cant hit their target. Not just that but bombs in general, theirs better ways to fight a war like this, one that dont cost soo much and dont kill soo many people. The fact that we will spend another 25% of the war total in future clean up operations over the next decade makes me sick.



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GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: GabbaDj]
    #780583 -

No worrys, I wasn't considering your posts directed AT me at all. Hell, sometimes I just hit the nearest reply button. I hate the cost of this war also, in dollars and lives lost. But, I am a selfish, egocentric, liberty loving, redneck, bastard, son of a bitch. I will gladly suspend my attack on the IRS for the duration of this war, I will gladly do whatever I can to defend this nation, I will gladly sit quietly by as the warlords make sure that we recieve the proper quardinants to bomb their rivals, as long as ONE al-queda member is killed.

I've said it before and it bears repeating, I am NOT a war monger, I don't hate but, I am also born of a hard world and a hard life. I have no sympathy for those killed; other than the children. citizens of a country bear some responsibility for the actions of their government. In this case, aiding and abeiting terrorist activitys. I don't limit this responsibility just to other nations. I feel responsibile every time I read about some idiotic move made by a congressman or president in my name. I seek to stop this by political activism.

I have no idea why our government is incapable of dispatching this small terrorist organization. One would think that several passes with a B1B would suffice. There appears to be an underlying motive for escalation, namely, Saddam. I would hope that we would do what is neccesary to be assured that such an attack would never again be a consideration by other terrorist organizations and then, bring our soldiers back home. I am concerned, but, at this point, I still consider our actions justified.

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: mr freedom]
    #781450 -

Mr Freedom, you stated, The bombing of civilians, mistaken or not, in Afghanastan, is justifiable, we have declared war.

I'd like to bring up one small point, Congress has made no declaration of war since WWII (as provided for in the Constitution). George Bush and his conspirators on Capitol Hill consistently ignore the Constitution in this area as well as all others. If I am mistaken, please enlighten me.

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: ]
    #781459 -

Well your not mistaken. However it is not just GW Bush.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #781507 -

However it is not just GW Bush.

True, the Democrats share responsibility with the Republicans. Both parties agree on the fundamental principle that individual sovereignty should yeild to the state, they only differ in their judgements about which rights should be sacrificed first and how much to increase the payments.

Edited by Evolving (07/28/02 06:14 AM)

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: ]
    #781597 -

Yes, we have a formal declaration of war. This link further demonstrates the legal and historical precedents relating to how war is declared in todays political environ.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/background/wtc_usatwar.html

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: mr freedom]
    #781626 -

My point is that the U.S. has not declared war according to it's own Constitution. The arguments presented in the article do not change nor contest this assertion, they bypass it. Just because the government has ignored the Constituion in the past does not mean it's current actions are any more legitimate.

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: ]
    #781648 -

Evolving writes:

Just because the government has ignored the Constituion in the past does not mean it's current actions are any more legitimate.

Correct. The US government is quite adept at ignoring the Constitution. They've had a lot of practice.

Witholding of federal income tax (and arguably income tax itself), Prohibition, the Viet Nam draft, the War on Drugs... these are the ones that pop into my head in the first fifteen seconds of thinking about it. I'm sure y'all can think of many others.

pinky


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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: ]
    #782195 -

The article is substantialy lacking in detail; I'll fill you in.

The formal declaration of war can and has been declared by the president. As commander in chief and under the War Powers Act, the president may declare war WITHOUT congressional approval for 60 days. At such time, congress must pass authorize, in writing, any further involvment of the armed forces.

The power of congress to declare war, article 1 section 8 US constitution, is often misconstrued to mean that ONLY congress may declare war. This is erroneous, as commander in cheif the president may send soldiers wherever he desires, but only congress may extend hostilitys, even over the objections of the white house.
To wit, the joint resolution passed by congress authorizing the further use of armed forces:


Authorization for Use of Military Force (Enrolled Bill)
--S.J.Res.23--
S.J.Res.23
One Hundred Seventh Congress
of the
United States of America
AT THE FIRST SESSION
Begun and held at the City of Washington on Wednesday,
the third day of January, two thousand and one
Joint Resolution
To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the recent attacks launched against the United States.
Whereas, on September 11, 2001, acts of treacherous violence were committed against the United States and its citizens; and
Whereas, such acts render it both necessary and appropriate that the United States exercise its rights to self-defense and to protect United States citizens both at home and abroad; and
Whereas, in light of the threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States posed by these grave acts of violence; and
Whereas, such acts continue to pose an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States; and
Whereas, the President has authority under the Constitution to take action to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States: Now, therefore, be it
Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This joint resolution may be cited as the `Authorization for Use of Military Force'.
SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.
(b) War Powers Resolution Requirements-
(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.
(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS- Nothing in this resolution supercedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.
Speaker of the House of Representatives.
Vice President of the United States and
President of the Senate.



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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: ]
    #782198 -

The article is substantialy lacking in detail; I'll fill you in.

The formal declaration of war can and has been declared by the president. As commander in chief and under the War Powers Act, the president may declare war WITHOUT congressional approval for 60 days. At such time, congress must pass authorization, in writing, any further involvment of the armed forces. See, section 1544 of the War Powers Act.

The power of congress to declare war, article 1 section 8 US constitution, is often misconstrued to mean that ONLY congress may declare war. This is erroneous, as commander in chief the president may send soldiers wherever he desires, but only congress may extend hostilitys, even over the objections of the white house.
To wit, the joint resolution passed by congress authorizing the further use of armed forces:


Authorization for Use of Military Force (Enrolled Bill)
--S.J.Res.23--
S.J.Res.23
One Hundred Seventh Congress
of the
United States of America
AT THE FIRST SESSION
Begun and held at the City of Washington on Wednesday,
the third day of January, two thousand and one
Joint Resolution
To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the recent attacks launched against the United States.
Whereas, on September 11, 2001, acts of treacherous violence were committed against the United States and its citizens; and
Whereas, such acts render it both necessary and appropriate that the United States exercise its rights to self-defense and to protect United States citizens both at home and abroad; and
Whereas, in light of the threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States posed by these grave acts of violence; and
Whereas, such acts continue to pose an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States; and
Whereas, the President has authority under the Constitution to take action to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States: Now, therefore, be it
Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This joint resolution may be cited as the `Authorization for Use of Military Force'.
SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.
(b) War Powers Resolution Requirements-
(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.
(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS- Nothing in this resolution supercedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.
Speaker of the House of Representatives.
Vice President of the United States and
President of the Senate.



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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: mr freedom]
    #782365 -

Very nice.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: mr freedom]
    #783105 -

Generally I think that making war and investion taxpayers money in weapons is like throwing money away. But... while 1WW and 2WW fucked up Europe and cold war destroyed Soviet economy - USA came out of these conflicts even stronger than before.
You can be optimistic about the war against terrorism, it's very likely that it will make you richer.
I just wonder what will happen to the rest of the world.

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: zeronio]
    #783593 -

I am neither "optomistic" nor am I going to "get richer' from said war.
As to the rest of the world, they will learn the same lesson that Japan learned.

Keep a watch though, I believe that our president is ready to write his own history by invading Iraq and removing Saddam. This would be a clearly immoral act and end, once and for all, ANY sympathy with the rest of the world. The U.S. would be seen as the single biggest threat to national soverienty since the USSR was dismantled.

Anyone ready for the U.S. vs. the rest of the world?

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: mr freedom]
    #783654 -

The U.S. war machine needs to stop...plain and simple. Get your noses out of everyone elses business and start fixing up your own backyard. Try joining the world community instead of running it....


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: Rono]
    #783721 -

Get your noses out of everyone elses business and start fixing up your own backyard.
Yes, the U.S. should go back to the policy of no entangling/permanent alliances and the government should quit being such a busybody in it's own citizen's lives as well.


Try joining the world community instead of running it....
There is no world community, unless you mean the den of statist vultures who make up the U.N.

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: Rono]
    #785270 -

No, the U.S. war machine does not need to stop. I have justified this, particular war, and have had no intelligent refutation to my arguments. Yes, the U.S. needs to eliminate ALL uses of force, against other nations, that have not directly threatend us. I also agree with Evolving on this issue; the U.S. government should also cease hostilitys to it's own citizens.

The U.S. should NOT, EVER, EVER, EVER join the "world community". Outside of the immoral WOD's and the IRS, the U.S. citizen has the freedoms to make their life what they like without too much interference; one could not say the same for the ridiculous referendums passed by the U.N.

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: mr freedom]
    #785612 -

one could not say the same for the ridiculous referendums passed by the U.N.

Which referendums would those be?...the ones that don't benefit the U.S.?


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: mr freedom]
    #797978 -

As to the rest of the world, they will learn the same lesson that Japan learned.

what does that mean?

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: mr freedom]
    #798101 -

The reason's behind our use of nukes in WWll were and are justifiable, we were at war, a declared war. The bombing of civilians, mistaken or not, in *Afghanistan*, is justifiable, we have declared war.

So because we say it's war, it matters, when they say it is war, we don't care, they are still 'terrorist' or what ever name we want to give them at the time. Maybe others feel the same way that are not in America...

I have no sympathy for those killed; other than the children. citizens of a country bear some responsibility for the actions of their government.

Maybe the people that took down the towers felt the same way.

I mean think about it, here is this country, the richest one, with the strongest military. Hell we trained a lot of the people we are fighting against, they know how strong we are. And I really don't think an organization like this is all idiots and people that are crazy, there has to be some level headed people. People that for some reason, hate us so much that they will work for years, just to let us know they don't like us. Give up there lives. Move away from there families, to places that are a lot different then theirs, to die. I just don't see them putting names of countries in a hat and picking one. There has to be some reason...
>>>I am not saying that we are not justified in our attacks, that's not what I am talking about at all. What I am talking about is our tendency to polarize things, everyone on our side as being just and good, and on the other side being horrible. I think there a quite a few more shades of gray. And after this has been resolved we might as a country need to look at how we treat people in other countries.

I can believe that we treat people in other counties bad, ever seen how bad a black guy that has a gram of crack is treated in this country???

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: shroomerylurker]
    #798162 -

Believe it or not; on all of your points I agree with you completely. The only difference in "their actions" and ours is the initiation of violence. This is the only moral ground in our defense of this nation. Outside of that consideration, I also feel that the policies of this nation, both internaly, as in your crack analogy, and internationaly are abusive and immoral in the extreme.

I also bear some responsibility; at least in my mind. This is why I learn, this is why I protest, this is why I, uummm, well let's just say that this is why I "garden", this is why I vote and this is why I visit here and cannibis boards and philosophical boards. It is my intention to challenge the thought processes of the intellectual, those that engage in intellectual arguments. I engage them to attempt to support their moral stance against drugs. I do similar here but, honestly, I am just preaching to the choir here; for the most part anyway, there have been a couple of exceptions.

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: mr freedom]
    #798221 -

Killing innocent people is NEVER justified.

People have NO controll over their government so they should bear no responsibility for their governments actions.

Why is it better to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people just to remove a handfull of terrorists than it is to assinate key figures at the first given moment?
We knew exactly where Bin Ladin was the days following the attacks, we knew where many of his TOP officials were and we could have taken care of and dismantled AlQueida in two days if it werent for our anti-assination policy.
Instead we had to give them warning, give them time to escape and give us an opourtuity to flash our power all over the middle east.


--------------------
GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             

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Re: stopamerica.org [Re: mr freedom]
    #798310 -

The only difference in "their actions" and ours is the initiation of violence.

The US and the USSR destroyed that whole country. Super power countries including the US created a war that killed and ravaged so many there. The US government and the government of the USSR trained them to kill with little money. Funned in weapons, and taught people to kill that, age wise, would still be playing Nintendo in the US. Two huge countries used them as living pawns, made a whole generation of people that knew nothing but war, in a part of the world that knows little else right now. I hardly see I they started off the violence. And if you don't think so, look at our tactics with how we fight Osma right now... If anything the US help make a bad situation worse. Not saying there actions are justified anywhere else but there own heads, but, to them where else does it matter? And if I grew up there, I don't honestly know how I would feel.

lurker.

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