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shmush
Stranger
Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 14
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Bad Timing, Need Help Quick!!
#7728704 - 12/07/07 01:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hello all.. I am having an issue with the colonization of some of my jars. I have 12 BRF 1/2 pt jars inoculated with Cambodian and 10 Rye grain 1 pt jars inoculated with Pink Buffalo. I am EXTREMELY pressed for time and want to get these babies out of the incubator and into the FC. However, I am fairly inexperienced and have a few questions: -the BRF cakes with Cambodian are developing at different speeds... that is, I have half which are fully white and most likely completely caked, and I have a few which are still only 3/4 colonized on the outside... is this possible, or are the clearly unfinished jars a sign that these jars need more time? Can half the jars be ready, and the same batch have jars with a week to go? - the Pink Buffalos are done on rye grain seeds and will be cased before fruiting and all that good stuff. However, again, some jars are more than fully colonized, others very well along but not quite 100%. Again, are the jars that look a little less colonized a sign to wait?
essentially, I have jars that look ready (and have looked ready for the past 5 days, and a few that don't look that ready. Are the good ones good to go? These jars have been kept at 85(F) degrees the whole time. I know letting the jars go in the incubator longer is generally a good idea, but I'll be leaving in week and a half for the last half of December... if these jars aren't quite done can they stay in the incubator for an ADDITIONAL two weeks?! These jars were inoculated 3 and a half weeks ago and have been incubated at 85 since. I was thinking I could take the out of the incubator to lower the temperature and slow down mycelium development for the weeks I am gone, but from my readings I believe the temperature drop my cause these mature jars to begin pinning while I am away... any ideas?? Thanks in advance for the help!
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IDontGrow
insomniac

Registered: 09/23/02
Posts: 217
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Re: Bad Timing, Need Help Quick!! [Re: shmush]
#7728773 - 12/07/07 01:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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your in the wrong business if your in a hurry just because the jars look colonized they might not be in the middle... the reason the other jars stalled could be many things to dry to wet contam in that area.. with the rye are you going to fruit from the rye or are you going to mix it with some compost colonize that and then cased and then fruit...
-------------------- work of fiction http://www.thenook.org/
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JewelessCaesar
Shroomery's Legal Department




Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 599
Loc: Petros-Joyner, TN, USA
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Re: Bad Timing, Need Help Quick!! [Re: shmush]
#7728834 - 12/07/07 01:48 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hey, if I were you I would drop the 85 down to about 78.. Inside the jars it's going to be 2-3 degrees hotter then the surrounding air. Once you go over 86 the mycelium grows slowly. 80 - 81(inside the jars, my temp is set at 78 and I make sure it stays in that area) I have found is optimal. But still puts you at risk for contaminates. Room temperature is fine 70-75. I also wouldn't birth any of the jars until they all are 100% and then give them a week past full colonization THEN dunk and roll and keep the humidity between 95-100% and keep up the FAE and wait for the action to begin. Have patience and it will pay off and always be sterile as possible. If you want to learn some very helpful stuff. Goto search posts and lookup the handle RogerRabbit and read everything he has to say..Along with the other mods as well. I hope some of this has helped! Good luck!
JCLE
-------------------- Failure is not an option, it's an adventure! - JewelessCaesar
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IDontGrow
insomniac

Registered: 09/23/02
Posts: 217
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not true you can have the temp up to 93-94 degrees in the jar and they grow super fast (the incubator temp is around 90) I think 106 is thermal death for spores but once they are colonizing i am not sure how much heat it will take to kill..
-------------------- work of fiction http://www.thenook.org/
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CubeGod666
(Insert TitleHere)


Registered: 11/24/07
Posts: 74
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
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Re: Bad Timing, Need Help Quick!! [Re: IDontGrow]
#7729242 - 12/07/07 03:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I just read a post yesterday where Roger Rabbit stated thermal death is fictional, despite published reports.
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JewelessCaesar
Shroomery's Legal Department




Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 599
Loc: Petros-Joyner, TN, USA
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Re: Bad Timing, Need Help Quick!! [Re: IDontGrow]
#7729305 - 12/07/07 03:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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PF jars, like other colonizing jars, should be kept in a warm (75 - 85°F), dark place that is not too dry (target RH from 50% - 70% rh). The dark allows for the mycelia to colonize the entire cake without being "told" to pin (mycelium pins when introduced to light, reduction of CO2, temperature fluctuations and lack of non colonized substrate). You don't want the cake to pin before the entire cake is colonized, otherwise you may have to prematurely birth the cake and risk contamination of the non colonized substrate, or leave a growing fruit inside while the rest of the cake has not been completed yet. You don't want to store the jars in an extremely dry area, since the water in the jar can evaporate into the air through the small punch holes in the lid. A too humid environment can cause molds growing on the outside of the jars and possibly spreading into the jars, so don't go with the humidity over 70%

This table from TMC illustrates the impact of temperature on the growth rate of mycelia. (The entire caption reads: "Figure 63. Chart showing influence of temperature on the rate of mycelial growth in Psilocybe cubensis and Psilocybe mexicana. (Adapted from Ames et al., 1958)."
As per search on this site..I do not know the author.
JCLE
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monstermitch
Growing in Bags Doesn't Work


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 3,911
Loc: Arizona Bay
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Re: Bad Timing, Need Help Quick!! [Re: IDontGrow]
#7729320 - 12/07/07 03:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
IDontGrow said: not true you can have the temp up to 93-94 degrees in the jar and they grow super fast (the incubator temp is around 90) I think 106 is thermal death for spores but once they are colonizing i am not sure how much heat it will take to kill..
you are so wrong. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7576880#Post7576880
Quote:
the core substrate temperature does effect linear growth of mycelium.
the peak of this growth comes at a 86 degree inner core temperature. which for pf jars means about a 80-82 degree ambient air temperature. for grain jars it's about a 76-80 degree air temperature, and for bulk substrates it's a 68-75 degree air temperature.
The thicker the medium that is colonizing, the more heat it will produce on it's own while colonizing. A 5lb substrate bag can easily be 15 degrees warmer in the substrate than the surrounding air.
If you go just one degree over 86 for inner core temperature, linear growth rates fall off dramatically.

once the inner core temp goes over 86, bacteria becomes a very real and major concern. plus mycelium growth quickly slows.
the key is to keep the inner core temperature between 80 and 85. that's done by first figuring out about how thick the medium is, then adjusting the air temp accordingly.
for any and all substrates and media, room temperature is your safest and best bet. The growth rate will be very good and the chance for overheating and ruining the media will be very low. at most you'll only lose about one day on optimal growth, but you'll gain tons of peace of mind and a great success ratio. which is worth it's weight in gold... or shrooms.
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IDontGrow
insomniac

Registered: 09/23/02
Posts: 217
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Re: Bad Timing, Need Help Quick!! [Re: monstermitch]
#7729350 - 12/07/07 03:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I am telling you from experience I set up my incubator wrong it was 91F in the chamber and in a little over a week i was 100% colonized... turned it down to a little over 80F for the next batch almost 2 weeks for 100%...strain was EQ the difference was around 4-5 days.. had 50 jars each time... you go by your little charts and i will go by experience..your going to get bacteria no matter the temp if your incubating and it is present..
-------------------- work of fiction http://www.thenook.org/
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veda_sticks
Cultivator




Registered: 07/29/07
Posts: 14,191
Loc: UK
Last seen: 4 years, 25 days
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Quote:
JewelessCaesar said: PF jars, like other colonizing jars, should be kept in a warm (75 - 85°F), dark place that is not too dry (target RH from 50% - 70% rh). The dark allows for the mycelia to colonize the entire cake without being "told" to pin (mycelium pins when introduced to light, reduction of CO2, temperature fluctuations and lack of non colonized substrate). You don't want the cake to pin before the entire cake is colonized, otherwise you may have to prematurely birth the cake and risk contamination of the non colonized substrate, or leave a growing fruit inside while the rest of the cake has not been completed yet. You don't want to store the jars in an extremely dry area, since the water in the jar can evaporate into the air through the small punch holes in the lid. A too humid environment can cause molds growing on the outside of the jars and possibly spreading into the jars, so don't go with the humidity over 70%

This table from TMC illustrates the impact of temperature on the growth rate of mycelia. (The entire caption reads: "Figure 63. Chart showing influence of temperature on the rate of mycelial growth in Psilocybe cubensis and Psilocybe mexicana. (Adapted from Ames et al., 1958)."
As per search on this site..I do not know the author.
JCLE
It has been tested many times before that incubating jars can be kept in the light without pinning. Fresh air exchange is the most important trigger along with high humidity at the surface of the mycelium.
invitro pins in a pf tek jar are usually the result of contamination.
-------------------- PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666 Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek
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JewelessCaesar
Shroomery's Legal Department




Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 599
Loc: Petros-Joyner, TN, USA
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Re: Bad Timing, Need Help Quick!! [Re: IDontGrow]
#7729390 - 12/07/07 04:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Wrong read both the posts.. You can introduce it by creating too much humidity you can dry out your jars..you take alot of unnecessary risks just because of your impatience. We need to keep it as simple and risk free for people just getting the ropes of things. If it does work for you, that's great but do not tell someone who this is (most likely)their first grow and they have seven posts.
-------------------- Failure is not an option, it's an adventure! - JewelessCaesar
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JewelessCaesar
Shroomery's Legal Department




Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 599
Loc: Petros-Joyner, TN, USA
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Re: Bad Timing, Need Help Quick!! [Re: veda_sticks]
#7729416 - 12/07/07 04:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I know Veda I just copied and pasted the chart to here.. 
I know that fresh air exchange is the most important pinning factor. It also gives you a very nice pinset. Wish I had my camera I would show you the second pinset.. Two large ones came out where that large one was last time.. it weighed 10 grams exactly. 
Have a nice day! JCLE
-------------------- Failure is not an option, it's an adventure! - JewelessCaesar
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shmush
Stranger
Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 14
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Ok... well the incubator temperature has been lowered, but I am still wondering if these jars can stay in a cooler temperature for 4 additional weeks. This is the end of the third week of incubation. What would be an appropriate temperature to store the jars for the time?
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IDontGrow
insomniac

Registered: 09/23/02
Posts: 217
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Re: Bad Timing, Need Help Quick!! [Re: shmush]
#7738228 - 12/09/07 08:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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you should not go past 10 days when you can no longer see the substrate....you should just fruit or it will do it on its own..
-------------------- work of fiction http://www.thenook.org/
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Nibin
Getting there



Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4,480
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: Bad Timing, Need Help Quick!! [Re: shmush]
#7739481 - 12/10/07 07:11 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
shmush said: Ok... well the incubator temperature has been lowered, but I am still wondering if these jars can stay in a cooler temperature for 4 additional weeks. This is the end of the third week of incubation. What would be an appropriate temperature to store the jars for the time?
If you want to stall the jars before birthing, once they are fully colonized, wrap them in some clingfilm to stop them drying out and pop them in the fridge.
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
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shmush
Stranger
Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 14
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: Bad Timing, Need Help Quick!! [Re: Nibin]
#7749200 - 12/12/07 12:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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right... but isn't there a chance of triggering pinning due to cooling the jars? (i.e. the fridge)
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monstermitch
Growing in Bags Doesn't Work


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 3,911
Loc: Arizona Bay
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Re: Bad Timing, Need Help Quick!! [Re: shmush]
#7749434 - 12/12/07 01:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
shmush said: right... but isn't there a chance of triggering pinning due to cooling the jars? (i.e. the fridge)
no. not a chance at all.
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Nibin
Getting there



Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4,480
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: Bad Timing, Need Help Quick!! [Re: shmush]
#7749501 - 12/12/07 01:56 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
shmush said: right... but isn't there a chance of triggering pinning due to cooling the jars? (i.e. the fridge)
Cold shocking doesn't apply to cubes as they are a tropical species. It is only for cold loving species
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
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