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OfflineSpiritual Seeker
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Enlightenment....Through Chemicals
    #7726693 - 12/06/07 10:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Q. Without the guidance of a master, meaning without interior work, is it possible to obtain enlightenment?
M. Maybe! But to a very small degree, not to the highest, and often with a lot of dangers to our health and mentality. That is why we see someone practice alone and they get very weak, or they become mentally disturbed, or they become possessed. We have heard about these. If you have a master, these won't happen. But the master must be a perfect, a real, a competent master, who has reached the highest goal, who is omnipresent, meaning one who is in one place, in many places, in all places, in the whole universe at the same time, and who knows your problems without asking, who helps you before you even know it. Then you are in safety.



.................


Found this on the web. There was another passege where it went into further detail talking about how people will start to act stranged or possesed.....simply because they obtained too much information on becomming enlightened when they wernt ready yet.


I for one agree. I think that it is possible to learn things on mushies, acid, ect. that you arnt ready to handle yet.

Once this happens apparently people start to act strange or possesed.


thoughts? I figured this applied because look how you act when your on mushrooms or acid. You arnt acting correct at all.


--------------------
"Nothing in the world is a gift. Whatever there is to learn has to be learned the hard way."
-Don juan


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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: Spiritual Seeker]
    #7726784 - 12/06/07 11:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I've been possessed before.

It was bad. But in the end it was all for the best, I'm just lucky I was at the right place at the right time, or else it would have been very, very bad news.

I want a Master to guide my spiritual journeys... help?

*without the use of psychedelics*


--------------------
Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...


Edited by Ginseng1 (12/06/07 11:14 PM)


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: Ginseng1]
    #7726814 - 12/06/07 11:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

possessed?

come on guys... move it to MRP.


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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7726819 - 12/06/07 11:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Possession is all about the interactions of the spirit with the mind.

This is P&S.

I think it belongs here.


--------------------
Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...


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OfflineMokshaIs
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: Ginseng1]
    #7727080 - 12/07/07 12:44 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I feel psychedelics can serve as a catalyst for becoming aware of our inherent Buddha nature, but one must observe themselves closely and not turn these sacraments into a crutch, which has happened all too often. If we are to use these sacraments for the purpose of guidance and to lead us unto awakening, we must treat them as that which they are, sacraments, powerful tools, capable of revealing Self. Ceremony, ritual, respect, appreciation, INTENT, are very important, I feel, when using these sacraments for the purpose of aiding in awakening. If these characteristics are absent they can serve different functions, and sometimes lead one unto quite the opposite of awakening, IMO. They are tools, and I find it very unfortunate that our collective conditioning has lead many to regard them as nothing more than compounds which get you high, very unfortunate indeed. May we realize the true potential and power of these sacraments and use them in a holy, respectful manner so as to facilitate the collective awakening, awareness of Self and our true nature, and to come to the realization that we are in the garden of eden. :peace::mushroom2::peace: :heartpump:


--------------------
in all of Infinite
there is but One
and it is nOne
ever and always
in every and all ways


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Offlineleery11
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: MokshaIs]
    #7727347 - 12/07/07 03:44 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

How does one tell a charlatan from a fraud?

Lol

or put another way,a master from a charlatan?

The charlatan will say he is enlightened, and yet, you may never seem to grasp what you are looking for, as if you are just filling his desire to be important.

The master can do as Jesus did, manifest anything, Babaji gave one of his disciples a temple that he manifested out of thin air, for a period of time, as they ate and celebrated their past life knowledge together, then he dissolved the temple.

He can teleport everywhere.

Where the F* are you masters?[ I am still seeking You Christ.

Since God is omnipresent, and we trust there is one, he ought to be right here in this very place right now as we speak.

This only applies to those who are faithful of course, and in agreement with such ideas.

*now take note, that right speech is very important, it just doesn't work to say things like that. I am the Master in that sense. We just can't do it, its chained to too many low vibrations in the collective mind, to throw those sorts of speeches around. We just can't.

When we use our minds always right and pure and true and good, we can have immense magickal holy power with our words.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: MokshaIs]
    #7727352 - 12/07/07 03:51 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

this definitely belongs here ast P&S
because it highlights the pivot between
a) the runaway locomotive of belief
and
b) the encorporation of experience of something wonderful.

We look at buddhism as a body of thought or lifestyle that is supposedly liberated from the bonds of belief, but it introduces "enlightenment" which is a new placeholder concept for something that is elusive.

Some aspects from psychedelic experiencing have simmilar character to "enlightenment" especially
Freshness (experiencing the universe without attachments)
Insight (a sense of sudden falling into place of long standing mysteries)
Oneness (a sense of connectedness)

Encorporating these experiences, the unprepared individual is inclined to believe that they have been changed. The truth is they have merely been touched or have only momentarily accessed a good vantage point.

At least buddhism is contrived to keep moving the student to the brink of this vantage point, it is a sustainable system.

Drug use is not a sustainable and the inclination to assume that the experience leaves a permanent improvement with no effort added is just plain wrong.

A teacher is important to keep the student oriented towards the vantagepoint without becoming entangled with egoistical meanings.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Edited by redgreenvines (12/07/07 03:58 AM)


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Offlineleery11
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7727359 - 12/07/07 03:58 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

what if one eats mushrooms, always

like, one every hour or so, always ? sort of the way many of us have our coffee many times a day to keep a certain vibe going

sort of like the idea of SSRIs for nirvana

perhaps the psychedelics should be abandoned forever, or treated with a modesty that does not involve getting high but more about just gradually going for a good swim


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: leery11]
    #7727365 - 12/07/07 04:12 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

what about physical health and being an example for other people in life.
sustainability involves all aspects of life, which pings on the oneness aspect of enlightenment.

one's effort has to be able to penetrate the cloud of experiencing (can be called illusion) into the act of being here (can be called yoga or bodhi).

medicines that momentarily induce the experiences, tend to block the action side of the equation, which leaves a "longing for elusive oneness" rather than a participation in Bodhi-satvahood.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlineleery11
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7727373 - 12/07/07 04:20 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

hmm

this is so

it is so that sitting around doing nothing is great for the psychology but does not seem to induce oneness with the same quality that the medicines do

perhaps the yogas or tai chi are higher than sitting meditation ?

i am looking forward to kriya yoga initiation.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: leery11]
    #7727406 - 12/07/07 04:54 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Q. Without the guidance of a master, meaning without interior work, is it possible to obtain enlightenment?
M. Maybe! But to a very small degree, not to the highest, and often with a lot of dangers to our health and mentality.




Spoken with true ego.  You might be able to find your way without my help, but only to a very small degree.  If you want the highest degree of enlightenment, without any danger to yourself, then you need to align yourself with me, or somebody like me...  :rolleyes:

Quote:

But the master must be a perfect, a real, a competent master, who has reached the highest goal, who is omnipresent, meaning one who is in one place, in many places, in all places, in the whole universe at the same time, and who knows your problems without asking, who helps you before you even know it. Then you are in safety.




Again, more ego... I am perfect, real, competent, and have reached the highest goal of oneness with the whole universe.  Study with me, or somebody like me, and you will know that you are safe.

Quote:

talking about how people will start to act stranged or possesed.....simply because they obtained too much information on becomming enlightened when they wernt ready yet.




I have seen people act "strange or possessed", waving their arms about, talking in tongues, getting up and stumbling around... all in a Christian church during Sunday services.  No drugs, no meditation, and certainly no enlightenment...

I spent quite a lot of time at the Zen Center of Denver when I lived in the states.  One thing I learned is how to spot a person that is pretending to speak without ego.  They can put on a good show, but when compared to somebody that is speaking from mushin, there is no comparison.

Quote:

what if one eats mushrooms, always




There is a difference between knowing/seeing the path and actually being the path.  Drugs, meditation, a slap to the face, etc, can all distract our mind letting us witness the path momentarily.  Only through practice can we maintain this state of mind.  The danger is that eventually desire for enlightenment becomes an excuse for what we are doing; our shortcut turns out to be a much more difficult route.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: Spiritual Seeker]
    #7727776 - 12/07/07 08:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Spiritual Seeker said:
Q. Without the guidance of a master, meaning without interior work, is it possible to obtain enlightenment?
M. Maybe! But to a very small degree, not to the highest, and often with a lot of dangers to our health and mentality. That is why we see someone practice alone and they get very weak, or they become mentally disturbed, or they become possessed. We have heard about these. If you have a master, these won't happen. But the master must be a perfect, a real, a competent master, who has reached the highest goal, who is omnipresent, meaning one who is in one place, in many places, in all places, in the whole universe at the same time, and who knows your problems without asking, who helps you before you even know it. Then you are in safety.



.................


Found this on the web. There was another passege where it went into further detail talking about how people will start to act stranged or possesed.....simply because they obtained too much information on becomming enlightened when they wernt ready yet.


I for one agree. I think that it is possible to learn things on mushies, acid, ect. that you arnt ready to handle yet.

Once this happens apparently people start to act strange or possesed.


thoughts? I figured this applied because look how you act when your on mushrooms or acid. You arnt acting correct at all.




:rofl2::monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSpiritual Seeker
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: Icelander]
    #7728090 - 12/07/07 10:15 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Keep in mind guys that i did find this on google.


This isnt some great Zen master to my knowledge. For all we know he COULD be a profit seeking/ego filling whore


--------------------
"Nothing in the world is a gift. Whatever there is to learn has to be learned the hard way."
-Don juan


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: Icelander]
    #7728110 - 12/07/07 10:19 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I think you can only grasp things that you can handle... otherwise you go into shock.

or if you want to look at it the other way... you know when you have a very cathartic trip and you have this incredible idea, it seems like the answer to everything and it seems to have endless possibilities, permutations or avenues of application?
then you wake up the next day, and even if you wrote it down, or remember exactly how the idea went... it still doesnt make as much sense as when you were tripping... and it isnt that you debunked your idea because you didnt think of some fundamental detail like "people need water to survive"... but it is just out of context... you are back in your box.
maybe there are fleeting moments of enlightenment, a small window opens just enough to catch a glimpse of the mathematical equation at the same time that you can comprehend that equation...

then you go about your business, maybe ponder on it for a week or more, and forget about it until the next time. Where in your tripping world, you had jumped decades ahead towards enlightenment, your sober self cant grasp it, so you hit your ceiling and write it off as "just tripping".


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OfflineWScott
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7728511 - 12/07/07 12:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You should read the introductory writings to Be Here Now by Ram Dass. I think it may have the answer you're looking for.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: leery11]
    #7728536 - 12/07/07 12:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Babaji gave one of his disciples a temple that he manifested out of thin air, for a period of time, as they ate and celebrated their past life knowledge together, then he dissolved the temple.

:rofl2::monkeydance: You guys are a riot.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: Icelander]
    #7729310 - 12/07/07 03:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

When you take the rattle from before a babies eyes, the rattle is gone. Bring it back, and you just materialized a rattle.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7729744 - 12/07/07 05:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

the way I see it, being able to feel the way one does on drugs, but without using anything but concentration... that is enlightenment.

and from what I understand, nobody can really tell me otherwise without looking like a hypocrite  :smile:


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


Edited by kotik (12/07/07 05:27 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: kotik]
    #7729759 - 12/07/07 05:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

and from what I understand,

Well I think we've located the problem.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: kotik]
    #7729763 - 12/07/07 05:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Hmmm :strokebeard:
At the risk of looking like a hypocrite :lol:... I must ask you... why would that be enlightenment? Clearly, it shows a huge power of concentration, but what the gut is a total asshole in the rest of time?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: kotik]
    #7729947 - 12/07/07 06:07 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
the way I see it, being able to feel the way one does on drugs, but without using anything but concentration... that is enlightenment.

and from what I understand, nobody can really tell me otherwise without looking like a hypocrite  :smile:



that is just about the freedom to shift through mental states when it seems suitable to bring more light into the system, a part of it for sure, but more so is the alleviation of suffering by doing good works.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7730195 - 12/07/07 06:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I struggle with the concept of "good works." I have yet to find a definition that satisfied me. Work I understand, but "good" is way too subjective for me to take seriously.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: kotik]
    #7730271 - 12/07/07 07:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
the way I see it, being able to feel the way one does on drugs, but without using anything but concentration... that is enlightenment.



I have learned to simulate the effects of cannabis by focusing on my third eye(and thus have no need for pot anymore). I hope to eventually do the same for psychedelics. But even then, I doubt such a mental state could truly be called "enlightenment."


--------------------


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: kotik]
    #7730854 - 12/07/07 09:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
I struggle with the concept of "good works." I have yet to find a definition that satisfied me. Work I understand, but "good" is way too subjective for me to take seriously.



in context of enlightenment
good - brings on more wakefulness in a more sustainable way
a) healthful
b) spiritual

it is self-referentially "good" (wrt enlightenment)


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineNoviseer
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: Silversoul]
    #7730876 - 12/07/07 09:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i think psychedelics can point people in the right direction. Step #1. You are not your thoughts, life is best without attachments, etc. Like Huxley said, the trip is a 'gratuitous grace' - neither necessary nor sufficient for enlightenment. I'm sure most people, before they had tripped, had no IDEA what was possible, how the world could be changed, how life could be lived differently. After that revelation, its up to us to practice.


--------------------
_______________________________________________________________
namaste said:
no flamz in da ODD, if you got nothing to contribute then keep yo lips zipped
_________________________________________________________________


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OfflineMokshaIs
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: Noviseer]
    #7731878 - 12/08/07 03:36 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Noviseer said:
I'm sure most people, before they had tripped, had no IDEA what was possible, how the world could be changed, how life could be lived differently.  After that revelation, its up to us to practice.


:hamsterdance:

:scream:  :rainbowcloud:  :dna:  :persistence:  :hole: :starbucks:  :watchingyou:  :sunstone:  :etbig:  :brucelee:  :window: :mushroom2:


--------------------
in all of Infinite
there is but One
and it is nOne
ever and always
in every and all ways


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InvisibleMerkin
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Re: Enlightenment....Through Chemicals [Re: Spiritual Seeker]
    #7732024 - 12/08/07 05:52 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

zen...


--------------------
Wheels of cheese wheeels of cheeeeese!!!


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