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Doomhammer
EmancipateYourselves fromMental Slavery

Registered: 05/01/00
Posts: 100
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black caps, poor pinning, sickly, help!
#7725666 - 12/06/07 06:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Anybody know what those nasty black caps are a symptom of?
I'm also having other problems. Very poor pinning, I also have a casing which has not pinned at all (though birthed a little later, I think it should have pinned by now). Very slow growth. Colonization was also slow for some cakes. One of them had this yellow discharge which I've read can happen when they have been colonizing too long (Stamets, Mushroom Cultivator).
Digi temp/humidity gauge is now reading about 72 F and 99% RH. But it could fluctuate. Gets cooler at night.
Is this a sign of a bad strain? I am using PF strain, it colonized cakes very slowly even though they were kept at around 84-86 F.
Could it be not enough fresh air? I've done this before, but this is the first time done in winter and also the first time using an air pump instead of opening the lid and fanning it. I'm using an aquatic gardens 1000 air pump in a 20 gallon tank. Assuming the 1000 means 1000 cc/minute, This should be slightly more than 1 fresh air exchange / hour. But I have read these pumps are crap. Also the positioning of the hose may be a factor? Also maybe there is not enough 'exhaust' through the opening in the top?
Could it be too much humidity? I've got perlite on the bottom and most all of the time it reads 99%
Temp not high enough? I've got the temp closer to 72F now, but before it was as low as 68 at night.
Not enough light? I covered it with blankets for two days to try to get the temp up more (and to hide it)... but this was after pins formed, I thought they only needed light to pin and to know which way was up.
Could a waterlogged cake (from sterilization) cause these problems?
Any experiences you can share are greatly appreciated. Let me know if you need more details, I have many, just not much patience for typing.
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ewikk055
token lurker.


Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 241
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
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Re: black caps, poor pinning, sickly, help! [Re: Doomhammer]
#7726093 - 12/06/07 08:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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correct me if I'm not mistaken, but i think the black caps would be a sign of an abort that needs to be picked.
also how long have you had the cake(s) fruiting?
-------------------- whatever you interpret from my posts may/may not be fictional.
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BlargIAmDead
Shroom Samurai




Registered: 11/04/07
Posts: 550
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: black caps, poor pinning, sickly, help! [Re: ewikk055]
#7726101 - 12/06/07 08:26 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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All except for the fact that those don't appear to be aborts. If they don't change size for a few days or start to shrivel then they're aborts. Pick. Otherwise, leave them be.
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elnico
NICO



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 92
Loc: Netherland
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Re: black caps, poor pinning, sickly, help! [Re: BlargIAmDead]
#7726191 - 12/06/07 08:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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cakes are probadly too dry and are running out of water during the grow... redunk them otherwise get the humidity way up there and put in a saucer of water
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elnico
NICO



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 92
Loc: Netherland
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Re: black caps, poor pinning, sickly, help! [Re: elnico]
#7726199 - 12/06/07 08:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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ya...looking at the pics agian id scrap it..dunk and start over
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Doomhammer
EmancipateYourselves fromMental Slavery

Registered: 05/01/00
Posts: 100
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Re: black caps, poor pinning, sickly, help! [Re: elnico]
#7726610 - 12/06/07 10:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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thanks for the comments. The cakes looked like they were just about to start pinning on 11/25. So that's almost 2 weeks. In my experience growing in the summer that is a long time.
Based on what I've heard so far and my own reading and intuition is I will increase the fresh air exchange rate by manual fanning for 3 days and raise temp to 74-78 if possible. If things look worse I will pick them and try to get more water into them, prob by dunking. Other than that I am still at a loss.
Do you think it may be beneficial to place directly on the perlite?
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thedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: black caps, poor pinning, sickly, help! [Re: Doomhammer]
#7726715 - 12/06/07 10:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
I'm also having other problems. Very poor pinning ----- One of them had this yellow discharge which I've read can happen when they have been colonizing too long
Dunk and roll your cakes and and you will see increased performance. And as far as the yellow stuff, that is metabolites. They are a part of mycelium life, but can form in excess if colonized for too long, like you read, or if the mycelium is fighting contamination.
Quote:
Do you think it may be beneficial to place directly on the perlite?
Yeah, it may help. That is definitely an abort and probably caused by inadequate FAE...
Quote:
Assuming the 1000 means 1000 cc/minute, This should be slightly more than 1 fresh air exchange / hour.
That's not enough. 2-3 exchanges per hour is what you're shooting for.
Quote:
Could it be too much humidity? I've got perlite on the bottom and most all of the time it reads 99%
No. And, your temp is probably fine where it's at. That is not as important as the FAE. I would increase FAE, maintain the RH levels you have, pick those aborts off before they start to shrivel and rot, and the good pins you have on there should fruit to maturity.
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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
Edited by thedefone (12/06/07 10:47 PM)
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Nibin
Getting there



Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4,480
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: black caps, poor pinning, sickly, help! [Re: thedefone]
#7727231 - 12/07/07 01:55 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Don't sit the cakes on the perlite, if you want to rehydrate the cake a bit between flushes sit them in saucers of water or put a little pile of moist verm on the top and mist those piles well
-------------------- Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy
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Doomhammer
EmancipateYourselves fromMental Slavery

Registered: 05/01/00
Posts: 100
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Re: black caps, poor pinning, sickly, help! [Re: Nibin]
#7727421 - 12/07/07 05:13 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I had a feeling it was FAE. The pump was the one major thing I changed since last time (and also last time was summer). What I don't understand was last time I did manual fanning only 3-5 times per day. This is way less than 1/hour. I've got a feeling there are stale air pockets with my new setup though.
I will have to do a search on good air pumps to use and the various ways of setting up airflow paths.
So I just want to be sure, there is no way to nurse these guys back to health? I mean an abort is an abort, but these guys you might say 'artificially' aborted. They got fairly large and started to die. I'm hoping there is a way to help them struggle through.
Oh my other concern is when I increase airflow via manual fanning that will reduce RH. The readings definitely read lower humidity for a while after one of these. Do you find that perlite is good enough to keep the RH high enough?
So dunking and rolling is good for the cakes, how about the casing layer I have in the same chamber? Sounds like I should fine mist maybe? I could post pics of this as well if desired. I had the casing in the incubation chamber at 84 F for a while with plastic over it, birthed when oh say 50% of the mycelium was poking through about 2 weeks ago.
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veda_sticks
Cultivator




Registered: 07/29/07
Posts: 14,191
Loc: UK
Last seen: 4 years, 25 days
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Re: black caps, poor pinning, sickly, help! [Re: Nibin]
#7727424 - 12/07/07 05:14 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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hehe was about to say the same thing, i would personaly avoiid dunking at this point as it will water log the fruits already growing, i see alot of hyphol knots forming which havnt formed to pins yet. Submerging them in water might cause them to abort??
Sit in a saucer of water and it will sook up the water, i have done this on a few cakes and have noticed a difference, i believe thats how i managed to get a few 10 gram fruits too.
The cakes looks quite bruised at the bottom, which usually indicates that its drying out, also black heads usually mean they have aborted, have never seen that on a larger one. Give them a few more days, if the caps get darker and dont grow any they have aborted.
There still good to eat as long as they have not rotted
-------------------- PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666 Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: black caps, poor pinning, sickly, help! [Re: veda_sticks]
#7727495 - 12/07/07 06:18 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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> That's not enough. 2-3 exchanges per hour is what you're shooting for.
No way! 2-3 per day is plenty, any more and you risk underhumidification.
I've had fine luck with *gasp* ZERO per day, with a only a few polyfilled CO2 drainage holes.
I know this is blasphemy to some members here, and I'm sure to get flamed for it, but it's true.
Black caps are usually a sign of waterlogging IME. Otherwise they're usually associated with spent substrate.
-FF
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Sillicybin
Registered: 02/14/05
Posts: 2,134
Loc:
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Re: black caps, poor pinning, sickly, help! [Re: fastfred]
#7727667 - 12/07/07 07:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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See all that bluing on the cakes?
That's caused by two things - either under-humidification, or rough handling. If it's not from bruising, it's because the humidity level is too low and/or they're not being misted (often enough.)
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veda_sticks
Cultivator




Registered: 07/29/07
Posts: 14,191
Loc: UK
Last seen: 4 years, 25 days
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Re: black caps, poor pinning, sickly, help! [Re: Sillicybin]
#7727676 - 12/07/07 08:05 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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The myc can bruise also if you spray them directly, i had that happen a few times from too much mist landing on them.
-------------------- PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666 Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: black caps, poor pinning, sickly, help! [Re: Sillicybin]
#7727679 - 12/07/07 08:06 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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That tiny bit of light bruising is nothing to worry about.
Personally I would do nothing different with them unless you identify a serious problem. Most likely they will recover and give a good 2nd flush or they could go to complete shit and contaminate. Either way if your conditions are already reasonable then you aren't going to change their course.
They really don't look all that bad. My bet is still on waterlogging.
-FF
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Sillicybin
Registered: 02/14/05
Posts: 2,134
Loc:
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Re: black caps, poor pinning, sickly, help! [Re: veda_sticks]
#7727685 - 12/07/07 08:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
veda_sticks said: The myc can bruise also if you spray them directly, i had that happen a few times from too much mist landing on them.
I've heard a lot of people say this, but it doesn't make much sense to me. If direct spray causes bluing, then why doesn't dunking a cake cause the whole damned thing to bruise?
EDIT: DO NOT make the mistake of trusting a Wal-Mart type digital hygrometer. They're not meant to work in condensing humidity, which means that once a water droplet condenses on the sensor, it thinks it's 99%+ RH until the water droplet evaporates off the sensor. You can get condensation when it's only 90% RH, and even less if there's a temperature gradient inside the FC.
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: black caps, poor pinning, sickly, help! [Re: fastfred]
#7727691 - 12/07/07 08:12 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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On closer examination... They are almost certainly waterlogged.
I can see some perlite in one of the pics and it looks over wet. You only want a thin layer of standing water at the bottom of the perlite or no standing water at all, just wet perlite.
-FF
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thedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: black caps, poor pinning, sickly, help! [Re: Sillicybin]
#7727697 - 12/07/07 08:14 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
No way! 2-3 per day is plenty, any more and you risk underhumidification.
That's just the advice I've read in regards to a PMP, involving air pumps. Using poly-fill filled holes is another ballgame.
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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
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Sillicybin
Registered: 02/14/05
Posts: 2,134
Loc:
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Re: black caps, poor pinning, sickly, help! [Re: thedefone]
#7727740 - 12/07/07 08:35 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Regarding over-humidifying cakes, please see this thread: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7724264#7724264
You CAN'T over humidify a cake unless it's sitting in standing water or it's so saturated with water that it can't get adequate FAE (ie, the cake is always glistening wet).
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: black caps, poor pinning, sickly, help! [Re: Sillicybin]
#7729028 - 12/07/07 02:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Sillicybin said: You CAN'T over humidify a cake unless it's sitting in standing water or it's so saturated with water that it can't get adequate FAE (ie, the cake is always glistening wet).
I said it's waterlogged, not overhumidified. The cake was likely too wet to start with or absorbed too much water during dunking. Another cause is incomplete colonization, sometimes the center isn't fully colonized and the cake will absorb too much water if dunked.
-FF
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Sillicybin
Registered: 02/14/05
Posts: 2,134
Loc:
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Re: black caps, poor pinning, sickly, help! [Re: fastfred]
#7730179 - 12/07/07 06:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
fastfred said: I said it's waterlogged, not overhumidified. The cake was likely too wet to start with or absorbed too much water during dunking. Another cause is incomplete colonization, sometimes the center isn't fully colonized and the cake will absorb too much water if dunked.
This makes much more sense than overwet perlite.  (Perlite that's too wet won't humidify properly.)
If it was too wet during colonization, chances are it wouldn't have ever colonized (or it would have taken forever). Waterlogged from dunking or incomplete colonization can be possibilities.
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