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Smackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 575
Last seen: 19 days, 13 hours
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: Wolfgang]
#8095553 - 03/02/08 10:26 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Gold is speculated on, that is one of the reasons it is listed on the CBOT. More over anyone here who has bought gold in coin form, bullion, exc is speculating on gold. Yet I am guessing that everyone here would agree that Gold is stable.
More over the value is the dollar is publicly traded at the discount window at the federal reserve.
People here seem to keep saying that intrinsic value is better than derived value. Why? So long as the presumptions on which the dollar is valued are stable then the dollar itself will be stable. I bought a gallon of milk today for 3.50 and guess what tomorrow I will be able to buy a gallon of milk for 3.50.
I can appreciate that inflation can hurt fixed income and savings. However if we use personal restraint on a governmental level and not go out of our way to bankrupt America then I think our currency will do pretty well.
-------------------- The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all. ~H. L. Mencken~
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bradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: Smackshadow]
#8095566 - 03/02/08 10:34 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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The problem is they keep printing money to deal with inflation, but that only leads to the debasement of the currency, artificial interest rates and further inflation.
So they print more money again, the value of the dollar goes down and the cycle continues. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer and the middle class are slowly wiped out.
Newsflash, we are already in serious debt with other countries. There is time yet to turn back the tide but if we don't act soon we are headed for one hell of a recession. There is no way our currency can do 'pretty well' under the present monetary system controlled by a privatized FED.
-------------------- "In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson "Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -
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bradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: Smackshadow]
#8095584 - 03/02/08 10:42 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Another thing to think about. How is our current system true 'capitalism' if it discourages capital savings?
-------------------- "In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson "Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -
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memes
Blessed



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: bradmassive]
#8097342 - 03/03/08 12:25 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
bradmassive said: The problem is they keep printing money to deal with inflation, but that only leads to the debasement of the currency, artificial interest rates and further inflation.
So they print more money again, the value of the dollar goes down and the cycle continues. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer and the middle class are slowly wiped out.
Newsflash, we are already in serious debt with other countries. There is time yet to turn back the tide but if we don't act soon we are headed for one hell of a recession. There is no way our currency can do 'pretty well' under the present monetary system controlled by a privatized FED.
Lol. We print money to deal with inflation? I would think that the countless examples from the past would pursuade our top monetary policymakers to deter from such a plan.
You can't honestly think that they print money to deal with inflation... And if so, I'd like a reputable source pleaseeeee.
They don't even print money to increase the monetary base - so I don't know where all this is coming from. If they want to circulate more money they buy back bonds.
Am I implying that the government never prints excess monies? No - i'm saying they don't do it to combat inflation. Why? because it makes no sense.
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Wolfgang

Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 8,370
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: Neanderthal]
#8097366 - 03/03/08 12:29 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Neanderthal said: Greenspan once fully advocated the very same policies that Rep. Ron Paul now advocates.
http://www.321gold.com/fed/greenspan/1966.html
As Greenspan once said, "In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation."
In essence, Greenspan disavowed his previous convictions and adopted the ideological charlatanism of the Federal Reserve. Or, to put it more bluntly, Greenspan sold out.
Its not secret that Greenspan was once for those views. He himself addresses it extensively in his writings. As he explains, he encountered lots of new data and analyses that caused him to abandon his old views.
To change your views or theories when you encounter new evidence or data is not to "sell out". Its to be responsible. Albert Einstein once believed that Quantum Mechanics was a bunch of nonsense, but he eventually admitted its correctness and nobody thought the worse of him.
To not change your mind and to expect others not to ever change their minds is a sign of religious zealotry, not rational thinking and is not desirable in any field with the possible exceptions of religion and politics.
In any case, Greenspan was running several successful businesses at the time and surely took a large pay cut to work with the Fed. So its not like it was selling out in any sense of the word.
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bradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: memes]
#8097529 - 03/03/08 01:07 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
meams said:
Quote:
bradmassive said: The problem is they keep printing money to deal with inflation, but that only leads to the debasement of the currency, artificial interest rates and further inflation.
So they print more money again, the value of the dollar goes down and the cycle continues. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer and the middle class are slowly wiped out.
Newsflash, we are already in serious debt with other countries. There is time yet to turn back the tide but if we don't act soon we are headed for one hell of a recession. There is no way our currency can do 'pretty well' under the present monetary system controlled by a privatized FED.
Lol. We print money to deal with inflation? I would think that the countless examples from the past would pursuade our top monetary policymakers to deter from such a plan.
You can't honestly think that they print money to deal with inflation... And if so, I'd like a reputable source pleaseeeee.
They don't even print money to increase the monetary base - so I don't know where all this is coming from. If they want to circulate more money they buy back bonds.
Am I implying that the government never prints excess monies? No - i'm saying they don't do it to combat inflation. Why? because it makes no sense.
I was typing to fast and not thinking. Printing money to lower interest rates is what I meant to say.
-------------------- "In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson "Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -
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Neanderthal
Philosopher


Registered: 03/02/08
Posts: 57
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: Wolfgang]
#8098199 - 03/03/08 03:54 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wolfgang said:
Quote:
Neanderthal said: Greenspan once fully advocated the very same policies that Rep. Ron Paul now advocates.
http://www.321gold.com/fed/greenspan/1966.html
As Greenspan once said, "In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation."
In essence, Greenspan disavowed his previous convictions and adopted the ideological charlatanism of the Federal Reserve. Or, to put it more bluntly, Greenspan sold out.
Its not secret that Greenspan was once for those views. He himself addresses it extensively in his writings. As he explains, he encountered lots of new data and analyses that caused him to abandon his old views.
To change your views or theories when you encounter new evidence or data is not to "sell out". Its to be responsible. Albert Einstein once believed that Quantum Mechanics was a bunch of nonsense, but he eventually admitted its correctness and nobody thought the worse of him.
To not change your mind and to expect others not to ever change their minds is a sign of religious zealotry, not rational thinking and is not desirable in any field with the possible exceptions of religion and politics.
In any case, Greenspan was running several successful businesses at the time and surely took a large pay cut to work with the Fed. So its not like it was selling out in any sense of the word.
Certainly we should all be willing to cast aside outmoded ideas and beliefs if compelled by new evidence or reasoning. However, simply because a person has changed beliefs does not mean it was due to better evidence or reasoning!
-------------------- "I will give you consciousness expansion that will turn your blood to ice water." -- Terence McKenna
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kristofer
Oneironaut


Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 230
Loc: Indianapolis
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: Neanderthal]
#8098534 - 03/03/08 05:11 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Ron Paul does have some scary economic ideas. He believes free markets work. Time tells otherwise, which is why we switched to a federal reserve in the first place. During the great depression the flow of capital collapsed because all the money was tied up in this "stock market" concept. Capital is the only motivation for labor, and that's where our goods and services come from. If the capital flow stops, so does production of goods and services.
That is the biggest issue with free market economies.
The free market also fails to prevent monopolies from controlling particular markets within it. It also doesn't allow for some necessary local monopolies (like natural gas and electricity) to serve communities.
Going back to the way things were isn't an acceptable solution. In that case value is directly related to the scarcity of a particular commodity (like gold).
All economic concepts based on capital will have to struggle with the occasional recession or worse, a depression, and it's largely due to the fact that people are unpredictable.
Ron Paul's ideas aren't novel. They failed in the past, and they'll fail in the future.
-------------------- dewbie dewbie dew
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Neanderthal
Philosopher


Registered: 03/02/08
Posts: 57
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: kristofer]
#8098818 - 03/03/08 06:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
kristofer said: Ron Paul does have some scary economic ideas. He believes free markets work. Time tells otherwise, which is why we switched to a federal reserve in the first place. During the great depression the flow of capital collapsed because all the money was tied up in this "stock market" concept.
Chairman Bernanke has openly blamed the Federal Reserve for the Great Depression.
The free market does work--no one can (or does) predict perfect monetary stability, just more stability than our current monopolized behemoth.
-------------------- "I will give you consciousness expansion that will turn your blood to ice water." -- Terence McKenna
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bradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: kristofer]
#8098881 - 03/03/08 06:12 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
kristofer said: The free market also fails to prevent monopolies from controlling particular markets within it. It also doesn't allow for some necessary local monopolies (like natural gas and electricity) to serve communities.
Quote:
No, as i stated before, monopolies only thrive with government run 'corporate capitalism'. In a free market competition to produce the best quality product (because the prices are dictated by the market, not by the FED). This is why in a free-market one of the only ways a monopoly could exist is if it had the best quality and value for money product.
Going back to the way things were isn't an acceptable solution. In that case value is directly related to the scarcity of a particular commodity (like gold).
Quote:
Got anything to back this statement up?
-------------------- "In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson "Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -
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kristofer
Oneironaut


Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 230
Loc: Indianapolis
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: Neanderthal]
#8099194 - 03/03/08 07:20 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Chairman Bernanke has openly blamed the Federal Reserve for the Great Depression.
The free market does work--no one can (or does) predict perfect monetary stability, just more stability than our current monopolized behemoth.
Quote:
The paper you linked to explains that countries who abandoned the gold standard came out of the depression faster than countries that continued to use the gold standard.
Countries that avoided use the gold standard altogether did not see problems in their local economies.
It expounded on that thought by explaining how countries that abandoned the standard after black tuesday came out of depression in a relatively short period of time, while countries that continued to use the standard dealt with depression for another decade.
Using gold or any precious commodity as a standard for value is insane. Using time makes a lot more sense. Every person has the same number of hours in a day.
-------------------- dewbie dewbie dew
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kristofer
Oneironaut


Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 230
Loc: Indianapolis
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: bradmassive]
#8099210 - 03/03/08 07:25 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Got anything to back this statement up?
well, there's the paper that Neanderthal linked me to. It's a pretty decent reference to the great depression and how money backed by gold gives some countries unfair trading capacity because they just have more of it.
we see the same issue now with oil. our money isn't backed by oil, but it's scarcity means it's valuable. oil producing nations provide absolutely nothing else to the global economy, but the impact they have is dramatic.
-------------------- dewbie dewbie dew
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bradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: kristofer]
#8099242 - 03/03/08 07:35 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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So your argument is that its 'unfair'? I see.....
-------------------- "In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson "Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -
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kristofer
Oneironaut


Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 230
Loc: Indianapolis
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: bradmassive]
#8099299 - 03/03/08 07:49 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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well fairness is reason enough for us to wage war on helpless nations. we want fair oil prices goddamnit.
speaking of which, did you take the time to read that 12 page document about the repercussions of the gold standard on economies during the great depression?
-------------------- dewbie dewbie dew
Edited by kristofer (03/03/08 07:58 PM)
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bradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: kristofer]
#8099318 - 03/03/08 07:55 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Lets not mix issues of foreign policy and economic policy here.
No I haven't read it yet.
-------------------- "In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson "Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -
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kristofer
Oneironaut


Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 230
Loc: Indianapolis
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: bradmassive]
#8099366 - 03/03/08 08:08 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm not trying to mix the two here, but fairness is legitimate. It's the entire purpose of having a standard to base value on in the first place. I was just pointing out that contradiction in the capitalist ideology.
-------------------- dewbie dewbie dew
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bradmassive
KingOfTheHill


Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: kristofer]
#8099428 - 03/03/08 08:25 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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You were mixing the two. There is no contradiction as the world isn't a 'fair' place. Who are we even trying to be fair too? The 'global community'? Are we trying to setup a global standard? Dude, thats a step toward a global economy. We don't want that.
I'm drifting into foreign policy here but countries have different commodities. That is the way of the world and is a good reason for establishing healthy trade relations with other countries. Other nations can base their standard on whatever they like.
Gold happens to be a good, stable standard for the U.S.
-------------------- "In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson "Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -
Edited by bradmassive (03/03/08 08:33 PM)
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Wolfgang

Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 8,370
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: Neanderthal]
#8099518 - 03/03/08 08:55 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Neanderthal said:
Quote:
Wolfgang said:
Quote:
Neanderthal said: Greenspan once fully advocated the very same policies that Rep. Ron Paul now advocates.
http://www.321gold.com/fed/greenspan/1966.html
As Greenspan once said, "In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation."
In essence, Greenspan disavowed his previous convictions and adopted the ideological charlatanism of the Federal Reserve. Or, to put it more bluntly, Greenspan sold out.
Its not secret that Greenspan was once for those views. He himself addresses it extensively in his writings. As he explains, he encountered lots of new data and analyses that caused him to abandon his old views.
To change your views or theories when you encounter new evidence or data is not to "sell out". Its to be responsible. Albert Einstein once believed that Quantum Mechanics was a bunch of nonsense, but he eventually admitted its correctness and nobody thought the worse of him.
To not change your mind and to expect others not to ever change their minds is a sign of religious zealotry, not rational thinking and is not desirable in any field with the possible exceptions of religion and politics.
In any case, Greenspan was running several successful businesses at the time and surely took a large pay cut to work with the Fed. So its not like it was selling out in any sense of the word.
Certainly we should all be willing to cast aside outmoded ideas and beliefs if compelled by new evidence or reasoning. However, simply because a person has changed beliefs does not mean it was due to better evidence or reasoning!
Sure, but he has written many things in extreme detail as to why he switched views. He lists how his data and reasoning changed. This is not some mysterious shift that happened. He has been very public about it, and has written and talked about it extensively. If you actually look for it, you can find plenty of stuff by Greenspan on the subject.
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kristofer
Oneironaut


Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 230
Loc: Indianapolis
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: bradmassive]
#8099932 - 03/03/08 10:40 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'm drifting into foreign policy here but countries have different commodities. That is the way of the world and is a good reason for establishing healthy trade relations with other countries. Other nations can base their standard on whatever they like.
totally agreed there. and the world isn't a fair place. but the purpose for standardizing our currency on gold is to provide a fair commodity to relate the value of other commodities to.
Basing value on the scarcity of a commodity doesn't stabilize value at all. If the commodity's scarcity changes so does value.
Beyond that, I don't understand how a gold based monetary system puts money back in the pockets of the people.
-------------------- dewbie dewbie dew
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: bradmassive]
#8100562 - 03/04/08 05:45 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
bradmassive said: Dude, thats a step toward a global economy. We don't want that.
Uh, there already is a global economy. We do want that; its the only reason why we won't war with China and they won't war with us. The economy is common ground that unites everyone on this planet. Have you heard of free trade?
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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