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InvisibleWolfgang
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Ron Paul's Economics
    #7723033 - 12/06/07 02:47 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I like a lot of Ron Paul's ideas on things like Civil Liberties, but frankly his economic ideas are insane. So I'm kind of curious how the various Ron Paul groupies here would defend them.

Essentially Ron Paul and Alan Greenspan have views which almost always are directly contradictory (and its not a political difference since both are libertarian Republicans). If you believe that Greenspan knows anything about economics, you have to believe that Ron Paul is totally wrong about economics since their views are just such opposites. Frankly, I respect Greenspan's take on national ecnomics a lot more than Ron Paul's.

Here is a nice little speach by him that kind of outlines part of what he thinks:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul53.html

There are several very obvious flaws here. For one he blames every single economic problem on the Fed and gives them no credit for any economic success. That seems a bit odd. Secondly, he refuses to acknowledge that we have gone through a period of time of about 30 years with no serious recessions, no serious rises in unemployment, no serious rises in inflation, and steady ecnomic growth. Why is he so hot to tear down how we run national ecnomics when everybody agrees that it has been an unqualified success for the past 25 years or so?

Third, he basically class Greenspan a liar. If you read what he says the Fed does and cares about, its the exact opposite of what Greenspan said the Fed did and cared about when he was in charge. Unless you believe that things like Greenspan's book are just a collection of lies, you have to think that Ron Paul is completely wrong here.

In fact, Paul's argument doesnt even make sense.

He says that the Fed floods the market unnecessarily with too much money. Everybody (including Ron Paul in this speach) agrees that too much money causes great short term growth, but will hurt you in the long run. Fed people are appointed for long terms and are judged based on how the economy goes over LONG TERMS. Most national politicians are elected every 2 years (and at most every 6 years, but they really care about elections every 2 years anyway), and are thus judged on short term growth. The main complaint politicians have is that the Fed has TOO LITTLE money in the market and thus inhibits growth (Ron Paul is complaining that the Fed puts TOO MUCH money out there). This makes sense since they really want that fast, short term growth to be reelected and figure they will worry about long term growth after they win reelection.

So Paul wants to hand over control to a group (politicians) that has historically always wanted to dump more money into the market in order to...have less money in the market. This doesnt make any sense at all. Plus, I'd much rather have financial experts in charge of this stuff than politicians any day. Do you really want Congressmen to have control of all this stuff instead of experts like Greenspan? Ron Paul does.

Now I know that part of Ron Paul's ideas are to get rid of fiat currency (ie go to a gold standard). That economic ideas was rejected over 100 years ago, and since it was rejected, the country has enjoyed unprecedented economic growth and the lives of everyday Americans has undeniably improved greatly. Pretty much every country has experienced growth if they go to a well controlled fiat system over any kind of standard. To put it bluntly, his ideas just dont mesh with reality very well.

This is one of the reasons I dont see why anybody could vote for Ron Paul. Although he has a lot of good ideas, some of his ideas are madness. And economics is a biggie because if the economy goes into the toilet, not much else matters.

Can anybody defend this guy on the economy?


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OfflineKamin
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: Wolfgang]
    #7723068 - 12/06/07 03:54 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

If there is anything I agree with Paul about the most, it is his economic stance. I would get into it, but my brain is at 5% currently, as I haven't gone to bed.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: Kamin]
    #7723204 - 12/06/07 06:10 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I think it is out of neccessity that he says "the gold standard"... because, what else is there to do if you dissolve the fed?
I think that he has very good points about the absurdity of the fed and its policies, and instead of having no answer when people ask "so what would you do better?", he says "go to the gold standard".

I also think it is somewhat of a pipedream/radical stunt, because even if he was president, it is highly unlikely that he could do such a thing.

Frankly, I dont agree with half of RP's platform, but he is the first and only honest, decent human being I have ever seen run for any office.
There is no puppetmaster pulling his strings, nor is he painting on a smile and telling you what you want to hear... which will be his downfall, because the majority of american citizens are fat, dumb fucks that want the dog and pony show and want someone to lie to their face.


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InvisibleWolfgang
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7723971 - 12/06/07 11:24 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

YawningAnus said:
I think it is out of neccessity that he says "the gold standard"... because, what else is there to do if you dissolve the fed?
I think that he has very good points about the absurdity of the fed and its policies, and instead of having no answer when people ask "so what would you do better?", he says "go to the gold standard".

I also think it is somewhat of a pipedream/radical stunt, because even if he was president, it is highly unlikely that he could do such a thing.

Frankly, I dont agree with half of RP's platform, but he is the first and only honest, decent human being I have ever seen run for any office.
There is no puppetmaster pulling his strings, nor is he painting on a smile and telling you what you want to hear... which will be his downfall, because the majority of american citizens are fat, dumb fucks that want the dog and pony show and want someone to lie to their face.




What exactly is so bad about the Fed and its policies?

A lot of politicians like to scapegoat the Fed because the Fed doesnt play politics and thus wont respond, but it usually doesnt make sense. For example, RP and his fellow libertarians claim that the Fed is bad because they put too much money into the economy. Most other politicians complain because the Fed puts too little money into the economy. And the Fed doesnt say much because the Fed doesnt play politics.

So what exactly is the problem with the Fed exactly? I find that most people who object to the Fed dont really know whats going on with it and just object because they want to lash out at something.

If RP is wrong about his economics and he gets his way, its a massive disaster for the US. As in the economy collapses and we are no longer a superpower. Getting rid of the IRS, going away from fiat currency, increasing isolationism when everybody else is embracing globalism...if you do all that you risk that your economy can go into a spiral that makes the Great Depression look not so bad.

Also, I dont get why people vote for politicians "because they seem like a nice guy". Thats why Bush got elected over Gore and it turned out to be not true at all. Vote for the guy (or woman) who will be the best president, not the person who is the best person.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: Wolfgang]
    #7724070 - 12/06/07 11:49 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

There's over hundreds years of History explaining why the Federal Reserve private banking system is the greatest legalized money making scam of the millennium. Google is your friend and so is the search engine here.:)

To ease your panic, Paul just wants for a legalized currency backed by a hard asset like gold, or even gold, to be able to compete in the free market with federal reserve notes.

Let me ask you something.

Would you rather own a currency backed by a hard asset like gold, or one backed by debt?

Debt is the only thing backing the value of the Federal Reserve note in your pocket right now. The U.S. Treasury is virtually broke and over $10, trillion dollars in debt.

It's because the Feds pump more new money backed by debt into the system that the value of your federal reserve note dollar has been  tanking since the creation of the Federal Reserve, while the value of gold, that use to be legal tender has been appreciating.

This knowledge alone should get some bells ringing in your head about where that depreciating value was funneled off too.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: Wolfgang]
    #7724368 - 12/06/07 12:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I haven't read too deeply into his ideas on economics, which is something he is deeply passionate about, and is the reason he entered into politics. I'm interested in learning more, but haven't had the time to look into it yet. :sherlock:

The one thing that I do know beyond what is generally known regarding his views on the Federal Reserve and the dollar is that, if he was given the political opportunity to begin implementing some of his ideas, he would introduce a new currency, backed with gold and silver, and have it compete with the dollar.

This is probably the most effective manner to begin to push the Federal Reserve out, it would seem. Simply stop using their money. :smirk:

I don't believe Ron Paul is an advocate of returning to the gold standard. My impression, from his inclusion of silver, is not so much that money is fully-backed by gold, but that there was an assemblage of precious metals that would most effectively hold value in the currency. This would act as a sinker, to prevent inflation, since it is a base value attributed to the money that does not waver, beyond the investment prices of the metal, I guess. At any rate, it would certainly hold much more stable. Confidence in the value of the money wouldn't be prone to falling sharply. Holding value with money accumulates wealth, doesn't it?

These are just ideas I've kind of gathered from what I have observed from Ron Paul. I think the above is reasonable, makes sense, and is capable of working.

And then, judging from Ron Paul's views on levels of government that supercede the jurisdiction of the Constitution that entangle our sovereignity, I'm sure the whole centralized bank and the global organizations involved thing he sees as a threat to our interests. They are held pretty distinct from the checks and balances of the government, and they pretty much make or break the economy. Its power that shouldn't exist, and doesn't need to exist.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineElectricJW
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7724480 - 12/06/07 01:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Ron Paul is against the fiat dollar, b/c basically that means that the dollar is valuable b/c the govt tells you so. Whereas with the gold standard, the dollar is valuable b/c it is backed by gold. So if the people believes that inflation is happening, they can cash in their paper certificates (dollar bills) for gold. But Ron Paul has said that he doesn't want to go back to the Gold Standard 100%. He's said that he wants to have competing currencies and let the free market naturally decide its value (through competition).

He is against the FED b/c they are causing inflation. They keep printing up new money and pumping it into the economy. Here is an article where in AUG they pumped 62 billion dollars into the economy:
http://www.slate.com/id/2172342/

THey've done this many times, and this is something that Ron Paul wants to stop.

Ron Paul has said that it would take many yrs, like 5-10, to get his implementations going. So he's not trying to change things overnight.


--------------------
"Visualize the action, then actualize the vision." - King of the Hill

“Long you live and high you'll fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be.”- Pink Floyd


Edited by ElectricJW (12/06/07 01:11 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: Wolfgang]
    #7724516 - 12/06/07 01:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

It is somewhat unfortunate that Ron Paul clings to Austrian economics, but I can't say that his economic ideas are any worse than the way the current bozo has been running the show. Hard currency like gold or silver has the advantage of being more stable than debt-based fiat currency, so I think he's necessarily crazy for advocating it. I am not convinced that central banking is bad in itself, but I do believe it is bad when it is debt-based, as our current system is.

I have heard numerous theories on how to reform the fed or replace it with a directly controlled central bank(as Alexander Hamilton advocated). But one of the major sources of the boom-bust cycle is land speculation, as we see with the housing bubble. Unfortunately, offers no solution to this problem, but the solution is going to have to start at the local level and work its way up.

Anyway, I'm supporting Ron Paul for the time being because of his his radical message of liberty, even if he is misguided on some issues. If it turns out he might actually win the election, I might have to reconsider my vote. But so long as he's just out there stirring shit up in the political arena, he has my support.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: Wolfgang]
    #7724727 - 12/06/07 02:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i think the basis for ron pauls argument is that under the federal reserve the rich have become astronomically rich and the poor even poorer. currently the dollar is at all time lows, our budget deficit is massive, saving rates are pathetic, credit defaults and loan defaults are threatening to cripple the economy. the fed has some esplanin' to do.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
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"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7724810 - 12/06/07 02:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

There are problems with fiat currencies and problems with using specie or its equivalent as currency. Ron Paul's judgment (and he is not alone in this, although he is in the minority) is that the problems of specie as currency (most notably deflation) are the lesser of two evils.

Both inflation and deflation cause problems to economies. In theory it is possible to suffer deflation with fiat currency when the government doesn't print enough new notes to adjust for expanded production of goods and services (more than a few economics commentors have expressed concern over the Euro for just this reason), and inflation with specie (when more specie is mined and circulated in a period where production of goods and services is flat or declining), but historically for various reasons the reverse has been the case -- fiat currency results in inevitable steady inflation (no matter how slight) while specie results in inevitable deflation (except in the case of exceptionally weak economies).

A flawlessly administered fiat currency system is superior to using specie for currency, but it's unlikely to ever be adminstered flawlessly -- the temptation for government to pressure the mint (or, in the case of the US, the Fed) to run the printing presses just a little bit longer to cover some of those over-budget items is almost overwhelming.



Phred


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OnlineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: Wolfgang]
    #7725446 - 12/06/07 05:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> What exactly is so bad about the Fed and its policies?

Every time the federal government tries to solve a problem, they make it worse.

Just look at the war on drugs or the war on poverty.

As far as feds are concerned, less is more.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: Phred]
    #7725509 - 12/06/07 05:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

There are problems with fiat currencies and problems with using specie




Phred, might that be considered a specious argument? :grin:


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: Wolfgang]
    #7725885 - 12/06/07 07:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I think of Paul's stance on the fed as being less about pure economics
and more about politics.

The fact of the matter is that the fed operates as a fourth branch of
the US government, but it does so without any oversight or checks and
balances.

It wields a tremendous amount of power at the hands of unelected officials
that are appointed and largely operate well below the public radar.

This is contrarian to a constitutionally-minded world view.

There are tangential arguments here regarding the means by which the
Fed largely benefits the giant banking intrests at the expense of the
smaller institutions, but ulitmately, a vibrant money market is what
allows economic prosperity.

You can extend that power through fiat money. Since it lacks the true
backing of some precious commmodity (gold/silver) you can arbitrarily
grow and contract the money supply to control inflation and, in turn,
unemployment and general economic prosperity.

Many people will shout "fiat money ALWAYS fails, eventually", while that
may be true historically, we are operating in a manner unlike any other
in history and, as pointed out previously, doing quite well at it at that.

"the temptation for government to run the printing presses just a little
bit longer to cover some of those over-budget items is almost overwhelming."

this is the recurring theme in Paul's politics...


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: afoaf]
    #7726818 - 12/06/07 11:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You can't get rid of the American Dollars! Then how can we get back to the moon, and go to Mars!?

Backing the dollar with a valuable commodity will cut lots of reckless spending, not to mention that much of the budget will be canned when Paul gets into office.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: afoaf]
    #7727133 - 12/07/07 01:04 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> we are operating in a manner unlike any other in history and, as pointed out previously, doing quite well at it at that.

We aren't really doing that well when we have to borrow from China just to pay the interest on our nations debt.

> not to mention that much of the budget will be canned when Paul gets into office.

Canned at the federal level... states can do what they please.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: afoaf]
    #7728122 - 12/07/07 10:23 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Many people will shout "fiat money ALWAYS fails, eventually", while that may be true historically, we are operating in a manner unlike any other in history and, as pointed out previously, doing quite well at it at that.




Famous last words: "This time it's different".


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: zorbman]
    #7729464 - 12/07/07 04:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I agree, but systems improve with time and increased historical data.

I'm not a blind optimist, by most standards.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: afoaf]
    #7731239 - 12/07/07 11:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I agree, but systems improve with time and increased historical data.




Any increase in efficiency only buys us a little more time- it does not invalidate fundamental laws. Your original statement was correct- fiat currencies always fail. Unless human nature changes, the temptation to inflate and debase the currency will eventually predominate.

If you want to bet on human nature changing, go right ahead.
Me? I'm betting on a collapse of the US dollar.

It has made me a tidy profit so far.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


Edited by zorbman (12/08/07 01:35 AM)


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: zorbman]
    #7733553 - 12/08/07 02:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i'm hoping that he changes the US currencies to oak leaves. then i would be rich.


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InvisibleWolfgang
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Re: Ron Paul's Economics [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7735711 - 12/09/07 08:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
There's over hundreds years of History explaining why the Federal Reserve private banking system is the greatest legalized money making scam of the millennium. Google is your friend and so is the search engine here.:)




Good, then you will have no problem picking out a good one and giving it to me.

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Let me ask you something.

Would you rather own a currency backed by a hard asset like gold, or one backed by debt?




Debt and its not even a contest.

Virtually every serious economist (including people like Alan Greenspan) advocates a debt based system. Empirically, countries that go to fiat systems (ie not gold standard like things) have always had their economies improved as long as the fiat system is well controlled. There is abundant real world evidence to suggest that the way the Fed does things maximizes longterm economic growth.

I think that any rational analysis by an economist will reach the conclusion that you are wrong. But, if you disagree with this, feel free to find one that agrees with you and provides a nice argument for us to discuss.

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
It's because the Feds pump more new money backed by debt into the system that the value of your federal reserve note dollar has been tanking since the creation of the Federal Reserve, while the value of gold, that use to be legal tender has been appreciating.

This knowledge alone should get some bells ringing in your head about where that depreciating value was funneled off too.




Sure, and the economy of the US has increased dramatically since the Fed started doing this. Around the time it was created, the US was a backwaters and its economy was nothing. Since the Fed the US has become the most powerful economy in the history of the world. Perhaps that should ring some bells.

Also, if all this is as simple as your "DEBT IS BAD" statements, then why does virtually every serious economics person out there disagree with your VERY simple and naive analysis? Do you think that your grasp of economics is superior to that of Alan Greenspan? If not, then why are you directly disagreeing with what he and everybody else who is an expert in this says?

I'm not saying that the way Congress is getting more and more debt is a good thing. Clearly fiscal conservatism needs to be in the picture and you cant be consistently increasing our debt like we are now. But debt is a good thing IF its controlled properly, which is what the Fed tries to do. Congress is bad about controlling the debt, which was the whole original point.


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