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InvisiblefahtsterM
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Quick step Rye Prep * 4
    #7718009 - 12/04/07 11:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Hey there,

I'm seeing a lot of folks doing the soak and simmer on their rye and I just wanted to post a "quick step" method that is basically what the TMC calls for, but one more pictorial can't hurt :wink:  It's the easiest method I've used for grain prep.  the soak/simmer is probably the safest way to go, but for those that are in a crunch and need to get it done sooner, there's definitely a way...

1. fill clean qt. jar with between 1 1/8- 1 1/4 cups of dry organic rye grain...



Now, adding the measured grain directly to the jar helps keep track of how much grain is in each jar and you don't have to worry about water being absorbed and throwing off the measurement.  So all of your jars will be equal when it's all said and done. 

2. fill the jar up about half way with warm/hot water..



3. place palm over the opening of the jar, pick up, and with your palm over the opening shake vigorously back and forth and up and down.  after this your jars' water should look all dirty..





4.  Now take a fine wire mesh "bowl" strainer and put it over the mouth of the jar..



5.  flip the whole jar over with strainer into the sink to drain dirty water...



this keeps the grain inside the jar while allowing drainage..

6. Repeat steps 2 - 5 until the water is pretty much clear.. I usually just do it twice.  But you may have to do it more depending on how dirty your rye is.  This is washing the grains so that they will come apart easier when you shake them later. 

7. Once the grain is clean, knock the rest of the grain down that is sticking to the sides of the qt by hitting the bottom of the jar on your palm and fill the jar until the water line is about an 1/8 inch above the dry grain line like so..  You can also add a pinch (or experiment with the amount by adding or subtracting to get the best balance) of gypsum to this water to help aid in breaking the kernels apart before inoculation.  Stir the kernels and gypsum water to spread out the gypsum.



8.  Now this is possibly the most important step and I think a lot of peeps totally space this step out.  CLEAN THE TOP JAR RIM (i'm not yelling, just making it stand out.) this is the very very top 1/8 inch ring on the jar and is the only thing standing between the inside of your jar and the outside... be sure to wipe it spotless before you put your lid on.

9.  Screw lid on tight and back off a 1/4 turn.  Place foil over lid and PC at 15-18 psi for 1 hour 10 mins.

10.  After PC has cooled (at least 4 hours in rough estimate) to the touch, remove PC lid and immediately tighten the jar lids.

11.  Now since the grain was PC'ed dry and sitting in water, the hydration of the grain kernels is going to vary through out the height of the grain column.. see, the grain on the very top is not going to be as hydrated as the grain on the bottom because as the water gets forced into the kernels, the water line drops and kernels get bigger forcing the column to expand upwards.  So the kernels that popped out of the water first are the least hydrated kernels, and the very very bottom kernels in the jar will probably burst, but it's a very small amount.  So since there is a variance in the hydration all along the column we need to mix all the kernels together to even out the water content in the jar.. we do this by hitting the jar against a knee (in my case) or an old bike tire (RR's method).  Once the kernels are broken up, just shake the jar vigorously as if you were doing a shake mid colonization.

tada, your jar is ready :smile:

here's 30 jars of rye done this exact same way..

 



**heres a close up of those grain jar lids in the above pics...



^^^go here to see how the above lids are made: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/6886717/an/0/page/2

it only took me about 50 mins. to prepare (minus the PC times) the 30 jars above.

I also love this method because it's so freakin clean... look at the above process.. no mess.. no transfer of wet grain anywhere.  thats nice. :thumbup:

In the last 60+ qts I've made this way, one went south and that was to a breach in the lid.  The contam was trich, not bacteria.  I could tell that the reason was the lid by where the trich was located and how scattered it was... It was on the very top of the grain below the lid and about three different spots started at once.  If you are losing lots of jars to any kind of contam, I think that the PC is the last place you point your finger.. odds are that it's either one of these or a combination of them:

1. A breach in the lid
2. poor inoculation sterility 
3. The inoculate itself

if you are seeing entire batches get bacteria, I doubt it's because of endospores not being killed.. I'd say that it's your inoculate..  hatching endospores is worthless imo/ime... if you look at how it works... not all bacteria are endospore producing bacteria.. EACH bacteria that can produce endospores WILL make one endospore when introduced to harsh environments.  so, If you soak and hatch those endospores to make them into bacteria, they will just produce another endospore when you try to kill them again. i.e., heat.  and only a hatched bacteria can make more bacteria by reproducing, so when you soak and hatch endospores, you are just making bacteria that reproduces exponentially... if you are soaking, you are making more endospores not the other way around.  Sometimes an endospore may survive to ruin your jars, but thats not something that would happen to every jar in a batch.. maybe like 1 in 20 jars... at least with the 1+ hour PC'ing.

if you are getting contams on the tops of your grain, your lid needs reworking... the top of the grain is the part of the jar that gets sterilized the most.. as it's right where the steam comes in thru the jar lid.. the bottom center gets the least steam for the least amount of time, so if anything is living thru a PC'ing, then it would most probably start there and in the center, not anywhere on the outside of the grain column. 

If you're getting contams mixed in with mycelium at your inoc. points.. then odds are it's your inoculate.

If you are seeing just one jar here or there where theres a contam mixed in with growing myc, then it probably got it when you inoculated i.e., the port wasn't as clean as it could be etc.

These are all just some things to think about. :wink:

fahtster


Edited by fahtster (03/01/09 06:45 PM)


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OfflineChi Ro
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: fahtster]
    #7718020 - 12/04/07 11:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Good tek, but I think the slow way provides better hydration!

Good in a pinch though.


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Invisiblederx
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: Chi Ro]
    #7718167 - 12/05/07 12:41 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I used to be a strong advocate of soak and simmer. But now, I just put the premeasured amount of water/rye into an autoclavable bag and PC for 2 hours. The results are fabulous. The water content is perfect. I use this to spawn bulk substrate and it works 100%.


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it's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom, ok, thats what it is.


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InvisibleBlutjager
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: fahtster]
    #7865610 - 01/11/08 03:46 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Has anyone done this with bird seed,next time I use bird seed I'm thinking of giving this a try with some of the jars just for the hell of it but was wondering if there is anything different I may need to look out for ??


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: derx]
    #7865717 - 01/11/08 04:16 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

derx said:
I used to be a strong advocate of soak and simmer. But now, I just put the premeasured amount of water/rye into an autoclavable bag and PC for 2 hours. The results are fabulous. The water content is perfect. I use this to spawn bulk substrate and it works 100%.




What is the premeasured amounts for prepping rye in this way?


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Invisiblegoldieman
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: Blutjager]
    #7865734 - 01/11/08 04:20 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

blutjager, i think this method works good with rye because all the grains are similar, therefore soaking up water at the same rate. i think, (never tried), that wbs has so many grains some would soak up water faster than others and create an uneven moisture content. with the long soak i think moisture retention would be more even. just my two cents.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: goldieman]
    #7866016 - 01/11/08 05:13 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

The uneven moisture content of the grains isn't really a problem. After shaking, they'll be distributed with wet and dry grains next to each other, so the moisture will even out over a few days. A pinch of gypsum in each jar is always a good idea.
RR


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InvisibleBlutjager
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7866296 - 01/11/08 06:20 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
The uneven moisture content of the grains isn't really a problem. After shaking, they'll be distributed with wet and dry grains next to each other, so the moisture will even out over a few days. A pinch of gypsum in each jar is always a good idea.
RR




So,I should feel comfortable with doing this with birdseed


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InvisiblefahtsterM
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: Blutjager]
    #7866709 - 01/11/08 08:33 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

I think I've tried this with wbs a long time ago.. If I remember correctly, the wbs was an extreme pita to break apart, but that would probably be fixed with the gypsum.. I think theres a tek at topia about it.. I'll see if I can find it.. yeah, here it is. :smile: http://forums.mycotopia.net/wild-birdseed-teks/9358-just-another-way-prep-wild-bird-seed.html

although, I don't like the idea of taking the jars out while they are still hot.. this makes them cool too quickly which sucks in air as a vacuum is being created.. so you better have a good solid lid that filters well. :thumbup:

fahtster


Edited by fahtster (01/11/08 08:35 PM)


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InvisibleBlutjager
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: fahtster]
    #7866845 - 01/11/08 09:15 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

fahtster said:
I think I've tried this with wbs a long time ago.. If I remember correctly, the wbs was an extreme pita to break apart, but that would probably be fixed with the gypsum.. I think theres a tek at topia about it.. I'll see if I can find it.. yeah, here it is. :smile: http://forums.mycotopia.net/wild-birdseed-teks/9358-just-another-way-prep-wild-bird-seed.html

although, I don't like the idea of taking the jars out while they are still hot.. this makes them cool too quickly which sucks in air as a vacuum is being created.. so you better have a good solid lid that filters well. :thumbup:

fahtster




Thanks....Time to start smashing more drywall:hehehe:


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Invisiblederx
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: Nibin]
    #7867991 - 01/12/08 02:38 AM (16 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Nibin said:
Quote:

derx said:
I used to be a strong advocate of soak and simmer. But now, I just put the premeasured amount of water/rye into an autoclavable bag and PC for 2 hours. The results are fabulous. The water content is perfect. I use this to spawn bulk substrate and it works 100%.




What is the premeasured amounts for prepping rye in this way?




Using autoclavable bags, I've found the best water rye ratio =
1500mL Rye, 1260mL H2O, seal 3 bags of this and put in an AA921 for 100 minutes.

RR is correct about the water moisture content. Once the bags are shaken up, the water distributes evenly and growth is quick. This is the fastest and easiest way to prep rye.
I don't understand why people waste their time pre-soaking, straining, rinsing and boiling their rye. They are just wasting their time and energy on something irrelevant. Using organic rye berries, I've never had an instance of contamination using this method and mycelium growth is very rapid at the correct incubation temperatures. It is also important to only use a few mL's of spore solution or LC when inoculating to not alter the water content significantly.


--------------------
better living through chemistry

OVERGROW the government!!

it's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom, ok, thats what it is.


Edited by derx (01/12/08 02:44 AM)


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Offlineflushme
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: derx]
    #7884293 - 01/15/08 04:14 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

ive do something similar
Qt jar +1 cup grain+180ml H2O+pinch of gypsum- Pc 60min @15-16 PSI and let cool 3-4 hours
the grains dont stick together and are perfect moiture
the water content you add depends on the moisture in your grain, and also how much inoculate you will use:borat:

i like the cleaning process in this im gonna do the cleaning thing like in here then test to see how much moisture it added to the grains when the water is drain from the jar, before its cooked


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Offlinesmily
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: flushme]
    #7904467 - 01/20/08 01:53 AM (16 years, 12 days ago)

are you smashing the gypsum to powder or course 1/16 - 1/8 chunks??

:smile:


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Invisiblederx
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: smily]
    #7908498 - 01/21/08 05:10 AM (16 years, 11 days ago)

yes, you should grind the gypsum into powder if it is small pellets.


--------------------
better living through chemistry

OVERGROW the government!!

it's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom, ok, thats what it is.


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Offlineflushme
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: derx]
    #7912588 - 01/21/08 10:19 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

my gypsum is in powder form


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InvisibleBlutjager
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: flushme]
    #7912606 - 01/21/08 10:22 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

I wish I had gypsum that was powder,I can never find it


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Offlineflushme
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: Blutjager]
    #7912736 - 01/21/08 10:42 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

i got garden gypsum from stiens


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InvisibleBlutjager
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: flushme]
    #7912738 - 01/21/08 10:43 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

I have never even heard of it:slitwrist:


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OfflineLearJet
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: Blutjager]
    #7912747 - 01/21/08 10:44 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

I do this with WBS with great results but a little different. I use 2 cups WBS rinsed beforehand to get rid of the sunflower seeds (they float off the top while rinsing) then fill the jars with water until the level of the water in the jar is halfway up the level of the WBS. PC for 90 minutes at 15psi. You have to shake up the jars ASAP or the lower layer turns into cement and won't colonize.


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InvisibleBlutjager
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: LearJet]
    #7912772 - 01/21/08 10:49 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

LearJet said:
I do this with WBS with great results but a little different. I use 2 cups WBS rinsed beforehand to get rid of the sunflower seeds (they float off the top while rinsing) then fill the jars with water until the level of the water in the jar is halfway up the level of the WBS. PC for 90 minutes at 15psi. You have to shake up the jars ASAP or the lower layer turns into cement and won't colonize.




You mean half up the grain or half over your grain ??


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OfflineLearJet
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: Blutjager]
    #7912774 - 01/21/08 10:50 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

half up the grain.


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Offlineflushme
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: Blutjager]
    #7912775 - 01/21/08 10:51 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Blutjager said:
I have never even heard of it:slitwrist:




steins "gardens and gifts" never? i thought those were like everywhere


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Invisiblederx
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: flushme]
    #7912778 - 01/21/08 10:51 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

i never heard of that place either.


--------------------
better living through chemistry

OVERGROW the government!!

it's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom, ok, thats what it is.


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InvisibleBlutjager
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: flushme]
    #7912782 - 01/21/08 10:53 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

flushme said:
Quote:

Blutjager said:
I have never even heard of it:slitwrist:




steins "gardens and gifts" never? i thought those were like everywhere




Nope never


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Offlineflushme
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: Blutjager]
    #7912823 - 01/21/08 11:03 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

you could probably order some if you dont wanna grind yours up


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InvisibleBlutjager
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: flushme]
    #7912851 - 01/21/08 11:06 PM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

flushme said:
you could probably order some if you dont wanna grind yours up




Dont suppose ya have a quick cheap link ?


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Offlineflushme
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: Blutjager]
    #7912963 - 01/21/08 11:27 PM (16 years, 10 days ago)

sorry they dont have an online store and when i visited the site i guess they are only located in WI, i think mycopath has powderform check that out


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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: fahtster] * 1
    #8142579 - 03/13/08 06:03 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks Fahtster.
This tek has completely fixed problems I was having with grains. More to do with my lids than anything else and making sure I payed close attention to the seal and cleaning the rim!!! I also love how clean my kitchen stays! :smile:

A few weeks back I was preparing a few jars with this method, I loaded them in the PC, set the heat and waited until it started venting steam. I turned it down to the sweet spot and left it. After about 10 mins or so I realized the PC was a bit quiet. I had forgotten to set the pressure so it was just venting steam. I decided to open it up and see how things were. The rye had soaked up a lot more of the water than I had expected but there was none of the really wet grains at the bottom and none had burst. So I gave them all a good shake to mix em all up and set the PC off again this time set to 15psi. When they were done the moisture content at the end was spot on, very even and there were no burst kernels.

I now add 10-15 mins at the beginning of the PC run with no pressure, then a shake, it seems to even the moisture up quite well.


--------------------
Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy
Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.


Edited by shaggydogman (03/13/08 06:10 PM)


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InvisiblefahtsterM
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: shaggydogman]
    #8142878 - 03/13/08 07:14 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

nice... thats very interesting... kinda like doing a simmer in the jars lol  thanks for the input. :smile::thumbup:

fahtster


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Invisibleshaggydogman
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: fahtster]
    #8145045 - 03/14/08 07:32 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, it's like a partial simmer in the jar.
I do like the whole keep the grains in the jar routine... :smile:

Just tried it again and I think I may have the times slightly out (too short).

I'm experimenting now with doing it at pressure, I think that would work better:
1. Giving the jars 10mins at 15 psi.
2. Remove from heat
3. Tighten jars and shake.
4. Loosen lids again and PC for the full 100mins

Not sure if it's worth the extra effort or not yet, as the moisture seems to settle over a day or so anyway. My PC is small so doesn't take long to get or release pressure. This might be a pain in arse for those big AA's.

Not sure of the best way or if it's even worth it, but I like the idea of simmering in the jar!

Needs further experimentation... :smile:


Edit: Just got 4 jars out of the PC.
15 mins @15 psi, let the pressure out, then shake, then 100 mins @15psi and the grains at the end were spot on. :smile:


Edited by shaggydogman (03/14/08 09:35 AM)


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OfflineTheBrewer
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: shaggydogman]
    #11879795 - 01/22/10 03:36 PM (14 years, 9 days ago)

I tried this tek yesterday using red hard winter wheat berries. I did PC for longer than you mentioned faht, probably closer to 1 hour 40 than an hour 10.  The grain on top looks good, the bottom 2 inches are mush.  Might I have used too much water or was my PCing just excessive?


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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: Blutjager] * 1
    #11879926 - 01/22/10 03:55 PM (14 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Blutjager said:
Has anyone done this with bird seed,next time I use bird seed I'm thinking of giving this a try with some of the jars just for the hell of it but was wondering if there is anything different I may need to look out for ??




I think you're going to find that wbs will absorb less water, so using the 1/8 water above the grain is going to be too much.

I've been hydrating wbs in the pc. I forget which tek I read this in, so can't give credit, but here it is:

Rinse wbs in very hot water
Let wbs drain for several hours, stir it occasionally.
Load into jars and PC 90 minutes

thats it.

Keep in mind you're more likely to make it too wet than too dry. The amount of drain time / dry time is going to depend on your local rh. But you'll get a feel for the right wetness.


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Re: Quick step Rye Prep [Re: anonjon]
    #15158847 - 09/30/11 04:03 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Newb old thread Res/bump :crazy2: 

Trying this method out for first grain attempt, looks like it should work great :grin:

Very handy!


Edited by thrasher64 (10/02/11 12:29 AM)


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