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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
Online Gypsum Supplier?
    #7715228 - 12/04/07 12:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Does anyone know on one? Can't seem to find ANY gypsum for sale online, not even via Shroomery sponsors.

If gypsum is THE CRITICAL casing additive, then how come Myco Supply, Mushie Mart, MycoPath, MushBox, etc. do not carry it, whereas they carry crushed Oyster shell and Hydrated Lime.

This is what MycoSupply has to say about gypsum.

"When preparing a casing layer its important to add to correct buffers to maintain a healthy pH level. For example, unlike hydrated lime, Agaricus mushrooms should not contain gypsum, as it drives the pH down in interaction with metabolites of the mycelium. This will lower the ultimate yield of mushrooms. Calcium Carbonate is the preferred source of calcium in casing, as it buffers the pH upward."

http://www.mycosupply.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key=CALC01

Please, I am not being snotty, honestly, but when an additive is touted as ESSENTIAL, but not carried by any vendors, well, it makes me wonder.

You would think ONE SPONSOR would carry such an IMPORTANT additive.

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InvisibleBUDDHA_702
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7715255 - 12/04/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Mycopath does carry gypsum but not lime.
Myco Supply carries lime & gypsum.

I got my gypsum at mycopath for like 85 cents a pound.

Edited by BUDDHA_702 (12/04/07 12:43 PM)

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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: BUDDHA_702]
    #7715287 - 12/04/07 12:50 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Cool man thanks a lot, you are right, Myco Path does carry gypsum, thanks for the kind correction! But I can't seem to add any to my cart?

Edited by Captain Cubensis (12/04/07 12:52 PM)

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InvisibleBUDDHA_702
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7715297 - 12/04/07 12:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

No problem,I just hope mycopath starts to carry lime. That's the only thing they don't have that I need.

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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: BUDDHA_702]
    #7715302 - 12/04/07 12:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

But still can't find it at Myco Supply, and can't add to cart at Myco Path. Any suggestions?

Can you find the link?

Seems like Myco Path has a pic of gypsum but no product to sell.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7715303 - 12/04/07 12:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Every agaricus farm in the world that I'm aware of uses gypsum in their substrates and casing. All you have to do is google 'agaricus' and 'gypsum' and you'll see. Gypsum tends to hold the pH stable, as the mushroom metabolites try to swing it lower. Gypsum is not a substitute for lime. You still need to pH correct casing material with lime.
RR


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7715317 - 12/04/07 12:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

So ideally, you will use gypsum, lime, and calcium carbonate right?

In what levels of each?

And really, where is the link that one can buy from?

And then why did myco supply say that about gypsum?

Is there an online link to buy gypsum that you know of?

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7715363 - 12/04/07 01:12 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Calcium carbonate is lime. Hydrated lime is calcium carbonate(crushed limestone) that has been heated in a kiln. The result in brief, is that it becomes water soluable so it goes to work right away, making it my personal choice for pH contol. If you use limestone, oyster shell flour, or calcium carbonate, there is a lag time before the lime raises the pH. You'll want to pH balance your casing material to a pH of around 8 to start.

I won't speak for why someone made a mistake on their website, other than stuff happens like that in any technical field. In addition, my experience isn't the last word on any subject. I have however, sent them a pm.

With the amount of gypsum you'll use, and the fact that it's heavy and expensive to ship, I'd suggest a local nursery. I've never yet been to one that doesn't carry it. I get 25 lb bags of horticultural grade gypsum right up the street for just over $3. If you can't find it locally, and don't want to smash up a sheet of drywall(sheetrock) order your gypsum from a vendor.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7715402 - 12/04/07 01:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Calcium carbonate is lime. Hydrated lime is calcium carbonate(crushed limestone) that has been heated in a kiln. The result in brief, is that it becomes water soluble so it goes to work right away, making it my personal choice for pH control. If you use limestone, oyster shell flour, or calcium carbonate, there is a lag time before the lime raises the pH. You'll want to pH balance your casing material to a pH of around 8 to start.
RR




Thanks Roger, so to clarify, there is no need for crushed oyster shell if you have hydrated lime, and all you need is Hydrated Lime and Gypsum.

The Lime raises the pH, and the gypsum buffers it from metabolites that would increase the pH over time.

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OfflineNibin
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7715603 - 12/04/07 02:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Yis


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Nibin]
    #7715845 - 12/04/07 02:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

and the gypsum buffers it from metabolites that would increase the pH over time.




Almost. The metabolites want to decrease pH, as in lower it. The gypsum tends to keep pH stable.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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InvisibleGlacier Creek
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7716234 - 12/04/07 04:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Do it best hardware stores carry agriculture gypsum. Thats what I use.


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OfflineFraggin
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7773240 - 12/18/07 10:01 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

and the gypsum buffers it from metabolites that would increase the pH over time.




Almost. The metabolites want to decrease pH, as in lower it. The gypsum tends to keep pH stable.
RR




I'm curious how Gypsum maintains a ph level when it cannot react with hydrogen ions in soil.

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OfflineNibin
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Fraggin]
    #7773832 - 12/18/07 01:28 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Who says it can't react with the hydrogen atoms in the substrate?

There is water in the substrate, in a given amount of water some of the molecules decompose into OH- and H3O+

Basic Chemistry.


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OfflineFraggin
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Nibin]
    #7773897 - 12/18/07 01:48 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Nibin said:
Who says it can't react with the hydrogen atoms in the substrate?

There is water in the substrate, in a given amount of water some of the molecules decompose into OH- and H3O+

Basic Chemistry.




An abundance of hydrogen ions is indicative of a high ph. Calcium Sulfate does not transport hydrogen ions in turn lowering ph. It's a common myth that gypsum added to acidic soil, will lower a ph. It can however lower sodic characteristics by converting salt to calcium.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Fraggin]
    #7773981 - 12/18/07 02:16 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

It's a common myth that gypsum added to acidic soil, will lower a ph




I've never heard that one. Gypsum added to an acidic soil will raise the pH.

Gypsum has been used as a soil conditioner for a very long time, and in mycology since I've been around. I know several articles that came out in the 70's, showing a dramatic increase in yields across many species when gypsum at up to ten percent was added to the substrate.
RR


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Fraggin]
    #7774075 - 12/18/07 02:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Fraggin said:
Quote:

Nibin said:
Who says it can't react with the hydrogen atoms in the substrate?

There is water in the substrate, in a given amount of water some of the molecules decompose into OH- and H3O+

Basic Chemistry.




An abundance of hydrogen ions is indicative of a high ph. Calcium Sulfate does not transport hydrogen ions in turn lowering ph. It's a common myth that gypsum added to acidic soil, will lower a ph. It can however lower sodic characteristics by converting salt to calcium.





This shows you haven't got a clue of chemistry. An abundance of hydrogen ions is indicative that a substrate is acid and so has a LOW pH

pH is an inverse logarithmic representation of the concentration of hydrogen atoms

Get your basics right please.


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OfflineFraggin
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Nibin]
    #7774911 - 12/18/07 06:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Nibin said:
Quote:

Fraggin said:
Quote:

Nibin said:
Who says it can't react with the hydrogen atoms in the substrate?

There is water in the substrate, in a given amount of water some of the molecules decompose into OH- and H3O+

Basic Chemistry.




An abundance of hydrogen ions is indicative of a high ph. Calcium Sulfate does not transport hydrogen ions in turn lowering ph. It's a common myth that gypsum added to acidic soil, will lower a ph. It can however lower sodic characteristics by converting salt to calcium.





This shows you haven't got a clue of chemistry. An abundance of hydrogen ions is indicative that a substrate is acid and so has a LOW pH

pH is an inverse logarithmic representation of the concentration of hydrogen atoms

Get your basics right please.




A typo dictates a lack of knowledge in chemistry? Amazing! Anyway, I'm trying to get clarification on the use of gypsum to control ph levels since the research I have found is contradictive to popular belief here. I understand that gypsum is used as a soil conditioner and does the the ability to remedy sodic soil. Also I realize people have used gypsum as a substrate additive for years with great success.However, everything I have found regarding using gypsum to regulate ph all seems to be a misunderstanding of the effects of gypsum. The only factor that seems to not be taken into account is the high ratio of gypsum:substrate used in mycology vs. the lower ratio of Gypsum:Soil in horticultural studies.

I just wanted to get clarification on the popular practice of using gypsum. Not have a pissing contest.

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OfflineMolasses
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Fraggin]
    #7774917 - 12/18/07 06:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

if you still have issues getting gypsum, pm me, i've got a 40 pound bag and would be willing to mail some for trade*a print or something*.

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OfflineNibin
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Fraggin]
    #7775106 - 12/18/07 07:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Sorry, I might of sounded a bit harsh there but it is a pretty big typo. I always double check any post regarding pH as it is easy to let it slip and mix up and down.

Anyway, I'll look into this. My chemistry is rusty, and inorganic was never my strong point but I'll have a chat with a friend who is an inorganic chemist and see what he says.

Even so, I think we can all agree that it has it's uses, be it as a calcium/sulfur supplement or as a pH buffer.

Once again, sorry, didn't intend to be insulting.

I'll get out a notebook tomorrow and do some calculations, it's a while since I played about with dissociation constants and stuff. I hope I can find the info for calcium sulfate dihydrate somewhere.


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OfflineBanjoMojo
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Nibin]
    #7775148 - 12/18/07 07:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)



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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Nibin]
    #7775245 - 12/18/07 07:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Found here

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/plantsci/soilfert/sf1321w.htm

Soil pH Effects

The role of gypsum in adjusting soil pH may be confusing. In corn and soybean growing areas, soil pH in the range of 6 to 7 is preferred for optimal growth and yield. Soil pH encountered in most areas of the north-central region of the U.S. range from 5 to 8. Within the pH range of 4.5 to 8.4, the addition of gypsum will have no effect on soil pH. The reaction will be as follows:

CaSO4 Þ SO42- + Ca2+

Dissolving gypsum in water does not result in net change in soil water charge.

At pH levels below 4.5, aluminum becomes soluble and dominates as the controller of lower soil pH. Under these conditions, which are seen often in the tropics and in some areas of the southeastern U.S., addition of gypsum can replace aluminum on clay and organic matter surfaces, allowing aluminum to leach away and raising pH to the lowest level at which hydrogen ions again dominate soil pH regulation (Oates and Caldwell, 1985; Sumner et al., 1986).

Soils with free lime are limited in pH to an upper threshold of about 8.4. When soil pH is 8.5 or higher, a significant amount of sodium carbonate (Na2CO3) likely is present. Addition of gypsum under these conditions results in precipitation of sodium as less soluble sodium sulfate (Na2SO4), resulting in a corresponding decrease in soil pH.

Na2CO3 + CaSO4 Þ CaCO3 + Na2SO4$

Although both reducing and increasing soil pH with gypsum is possible, each effect is appropriate for soil conditions that are seen only rarely in the north-central region. Use of gypsum to increase soil pH from 5 to 6 will not be effective, nor will its use to try to lower pH from 8 to 7. For these reasons, gypsum is not considered to be a liming material or an additive to reduce pH in this region.


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Edited by Nibin (12/18/07 07:49 PM)

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Invisiblenorml840
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Nibin]
    #7775335 - 12/18/07 08:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

just go to lowes or home depot, buy a small square of sheetrock or ask for leftovers (they'll give it to you), and crush it up (after you remove most of the paper). there you go.....easy gypsum. just make sure the sheetrock isn't green. that's the anti fungal kind. wouldn't be good for your grows. just regular white sheetrock will do fine.

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OfflineFraggin
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Nibin]
    #7775489 - 12/18/07 08:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Nibin said:
Found here

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/plantsci/soilfert/sf1321w.htm

Soil pH Effects

The role of gypsum in adjusting soil pH may be confusing. In corn and soybean growing areas, soil pH in the range of 6 to 7 is preferred for optimal growth and yield. Soil pH encountered in most areas of the north-central region of the U.S. range from 5 to 8. Within the pH range of 4.5 to 8.4, the addition of gypsum will have no effect on soil pH. The reaction will be as follows:

CaSO4 Þ SO42- + Ca2+

Dissolving gypsum in water does not result in net change in soil water charge.

At pH levels below 4.5, aluminum becomes soluble and dominates as the controller of lower soil pH. Under these conditions, which are seen often in the tropics and in some areas of the southeastern U.S., addition of gypsum can replace aluminum on clay and organic matter surfaces, allowing aluminum to leach away and raising pH to the lowest level at which hydrogen ions again dominate soil pH regulation (Oates and Caldwell, 1985; Sumner et al., 1986).

Soils with free lime are limited in pH to an upper threshold of about 8.4. When soil pH is 8.5 or higher, a significant amount of sodium carbonate (Na2CO3) likely is present. Addition of gypsum under these conditions results in precipitation of sodium as less soluble sodium sulfate (Na2SO4), resulting in a corresponding decrease in soil pH.

Na2CO3 + CaSO4 Þ CaCO3 + Na2SO4$

Although both reducing and increasing soil pH with gypsum is possible, each effect is appropriate for soil conditions that are seen only rarely in the north-central region. Use of gypsum to increase soil pH from 5 to 6 will not be effective, nor will its use to try to lower pH from 8 to 7. For these reasons, gypsum is not considered to be a liming material or an additive to reduce pH in this region.




That seems like a more logical explination to the reasons that ph can change when gypsum is introduced to soil.

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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Fraggin]
    #7776610 - 12/19/07 07:09 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, it couldn't be by simple addition as it is a neutral salt. I was going with the second reaction (the sodium sulphate one) but I would never have guessed the aluminium one. I wonder if this has anything to do with the holes in aluminium trays...


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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Nibin]
    #7835704 - 01/05/08 01:50 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

wow, chemistry, I'm glad you guys are on top of it. :grin: I think I need something to clear my brain now.

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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Nibin]
    #7836306 - 01/05/08 04:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I think it's the sulfur in gypsum that lowers the pH. The calcium wouldn't lower pH.

As I understand it, gypsum is more of a nutritional supplement, than a soil conditioner, as it's presence promotes mycelial growth and is not added for pH adjustment.

Sulfur and Calcium are two things myc likes, but rye is poor in.

I could be wrong.

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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7838206 - 01/06/08 04:26 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
I think it's the sulfur in gypsum that lowers the pH. The calcium wouldn't lower pH.

As I understand it, gypsum is more of a nutritional supplement, than a soil conditioner, as it's presence promotes mycelial growth and is not added for pH adjustment.

Sulfur and Calcium are two things myc likes, but rye is poor in.

I could be wrong.




Don't say what you think without any backing information. I can say I think the earth is flat, but even if I think it, it will be a load of bullshit. I

Three posts above you have a very in depth explanation of how the buffer part of gypsum works, and it explains how the sulfur in gypsum will react with sodium carbonate in soil, leading to a decrease in pH. Saying you think it is so adds no extra authority to the already established fact.

We know fine well gypsum is a nutritional supplement, it has been said over and over again.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7838246 - 01/06/08 05:32 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
I think it's the sulfur in gypsum that lowers the pH. The calcium wouldn't lower pH.

As I understand it, gypsum is more of a nutritional supplement, than a soil conditioner, as it's presence promotes mycelial growth and is not added for pH adjustment.

Sulfur and Calcium are two things myc likes, but rye is poor in.

I could be wrong.




Actually, that's right on. Gypsum isn't used to adjust the pH. A side benefit of gypsum is it tends to hold the pH stable, preventing a swing to acidic conditions caused by metabolism of the fungi.

Sulfur and calcium are both essential for good fruitbody formation, so gypsum helps to ensure that our substrates have plenty. In addition, it's a soil conditioner that helps prevent clumping. In some species, such as Shiitake, gypsum has shown a 20% increase in yields over the same subsrate without gypsum.
RR


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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7838256 - 01/06/08 05:41 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
I think it's the sulfur in gypsum that lowers the pH. The calcium wouldn't lower pH.

As I understand it, gypsum is more of a nutritional supplement, than a soil conditioner, as it's presence promotes mycelial growth and is not added for pH adjustment.

Sulfur and Calcium are two things myc likes, but rye is poor in.

I could be wrong.




Actually, that's right on. Gypsum isn't used to adjust the pH. A side benefit of gypsum is it tends to hold the pH stable, preventing a swing to acidic conditions caused by metabolism of the fungi.

Sulfur and calcium are both essential for good fruitbody formation, so gypsum helps to ensure that our substrates have plenty. In addition, it's a soil conditioner that helps prevent clumping. In some species, such as Shiitake, gypsum has shown a 20% increase in yields over the same subsrate without gypsum.
RR




Which is something you repeat about three times a week, RR.

Lol, it is something that everyone should memorize. The ABC of Gypsum

Additional Nutrients
Buffer
Clumping.


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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Nibin]
    #7966268 - 02/01/08 07:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

this is too bad I had to get my local ag store to order some in so now My projects will be vulnerable to swings in PH. Would it help if I got some crushed oister shells instead of lime so that the PH would not become too acidic over time? If I understand this is how it works.


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #7967267 - 02/02/08 12:01 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Powdered oyster shell or oyster shell flour would help, as calcium carbonate is also a pH buffer and corrector, but in crushed oyster shell the pieces are too big to have much effect on the pH.

Great for texture though.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: Nibin]
    #7967561 - 02/02/08 02:33 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

well thanks for saving me a couple bucks. I hope I don't rue the day if my first casings get minimal flushes while I'm waiting for gypsum.

Edited by ScavengerType (02/02/08 02:36 AM)

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Offlinekimber
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11861904 - 01/19/10 07:31 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

i was wondering i just ordered some gypsum and when it came its not a powder its like little pellets is this ok to use

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Invisiblemyceleus_rex
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Re: Online Gypsum Supplier? [Re: kimber]
    #11861962 - 01/19/10 07:43 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

No problem, just dissolve it in your soak water for grain or boil into the water you use for making your sub.


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