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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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humans are robots
#7713817 - 12/04/07 01:29 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Does anyone else get the feeling that absolutely everything we do is programmed and has been determined for us since birth?
That most people (or even more frightening, all people) are not really alive at all but acting out conditioned responses of their mind?
If I walked up to you, and told you that you were nothing more than an artificial program, would you believe me?
You know, a lot of people say we are animals.. I think we're a lot closer to being machines.
The main point I'm getting at is this - is higher self-awareness simply the ability to detach oneself from one's programs? And what would the point of this be if there is no real self to find outside the programs?
It is nights like these I'm thankful for the veil of materialism and the layers of illusion we can distract ourselves in. I remember Markos recently said that it is the greedy ignorant masses who are terrified by infinity and I suppose you can count me in with those for now. It is not the emptiness, or the love that is terrifying, it's the fact that everyone you thought you "loved" was nothing more than a projection of your mind and that those people are also mostly just minds who are barely more alive than a rock.
I mean, wouldn't you rather be asleep than have to be the only person awake enough to see the futileness of the masses? How many awake people are out there? Maybe it's getting less lonely...
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Cameron
Too Many Words



Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 4,437
Loc: Canada
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Well, we're all 'programmed' in to our respective societies from birth; without that training we wouldn't be nearly as advanced and separate from the rest of the animal kingdom as we are now. With that programming comes the conditioned responses you refer to - we make most, if not all, of our decisions based on what we've seen or heard, what we've been programmed to believe is the proper response or action (or, in probably an equal number of cases, we make our decisions on a more primitive level - eg: fight or flight). I guess the real defining attributes that identify us as living beings are the bonds we form and the emotional connections we create with eachother, rather than the thought processes we run through on a daily basis. That's my take, but I have yet to attain any sense of higher self awareness; I'm merely musing on a foundation of very little life experience.
Edited by Cameron (12/04/07 02:26 AM)
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: humans are robots [Re: Cameron]
#7713866 - 12/04/07 02:15 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I appreciate your thoughts. It's amazing how unreliable people are yet how much we need them to .. stay sane.
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Merkin
neep.



Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 27,537
Loc: Ass Flavoured Pie Factory
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yes, we are merely a forgotten echo, and we will be alone forever.
-------------------- Wheels of cheese wheeels of cheeeeese!!!
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate



Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 3 days, 17 hours
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I know that most of the time at least I am acting out of totally conditioned patterns of behavior. Sometimes I become aware of it and consciously change it... but even this is determind by my becoming aware of it. IMO everything is totally determined, but there is no self and nothing happening anyay. If there is awareness of that, there is a light, spontaneous-feeling quality to life. When and whether that awareness will exist is determined. 
"People...go through their lives in a sort of coarse comfort, like petted animals, without ever realizing that they are probably thinking other people's thoughts, living by other people's standards, wearing practically what one may call other people's second-hand clothes, and never being themselves for a single moment.
...Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
Oscar Wilde
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: Does anyone else get the feeling that absolutely everything we do is programmed and has been determined for us since birth?
That most people (or even more frightening, all people) are not really alive at all but acting out conditioned responses of their mind?
If I walked up to you, and told you that you were nothing more than an artificial program, would you believe me?
You know, a lot of people say we are animals.. I think we're a lot closer to being machines.
The main point I'm getting at is this - is higher self-awareness simply the ability to detach oneself from one's programs? And what would the point of this be if there is no real self to find outside the programs?
It is nights like these I'm thankful for the veil of materialism and the layers of illusion we can distract ourselves in. I remember Markos recently said that it is the greedy ignorant masses who are terrified by infinity and I suppose you can count me in with those for now. It is not the emptiness, or the love that is terrifying, it's the fact that everyone you thought you "loved" was nothing more than a projection of your mind and that those people are also mostly just minds who are barely more alive than a rock.
I mean, wouldn't you rather be asleep than have to be the only person awake enough to see the futileness of the masses? How many awake people are out there? Maybe it's getting less lonely...
I would rather not be asleep. It's not that there is no reality out there. It's that we don't know what it is. As humans we have a human nature. You could call this a level of being programmed. Beyond that we have a culture that creates a "hyper reality" that has nothing much to do with our natural reality. It's as if we live in the map and never notice that it is a representation of a so called reality.
Disneyland is supposed to be a fairyland and we know that when we go in. But is it really different than L.A. or Vegas or your home town? We are lost in a matrix of culture and are asleep to the fact that we are no longer "real". This seems to be the human condition and could be a natural outcome of the self-aware brain that has come about as a evolutionary adaptation. The whole problem revolves around the fact that with this self-reflective awareness we came to understand that we are not permanent. We have been running from this awareness ever sense.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: humans are robots [Re: Icelander]
#7714497 - 12/04/07 09:35 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I change my mind from last night. Although we may be robots, there are some people out there who are good enough imitations of the real thing.
Quote:
Beyond that we have a culture that creates a "hyper reality" that has nothing much to do with our natural reality
This is very strange indeed. From my perspective, this hyper reality has a life of its own in the minds of individuals - it exists because enough people believe it does. I examined it once while on LSD, and it kind of looked like this picture:

This hyper reality limits the mind greatly and stifles self expression in those that put their faith in it. I'd go so far to say that it is a virus in consciousness.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
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And what's the "real thing"?  Or better yet, who?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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I don't think DNA itself naturally evolved, it's some kind of organic robotic high technology...
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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i'm the real thing
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: I change my mind from last night. Although we may be robots, there are some people out there who are good enough imitations of the real thing.
Quote:
Beyond that we have a culture that creates a "hyper reality" that has nothing much to do with our natural reality
This is very strange indeed. From my perspective, this hyper reality has a life of its own in the minds of individuals - it exists because enough people believe it does. I examined it once while on LSD, and it kind of looked like this picture:

This hyper reality limits the mind greatly and stifles self expression in those that put their faith in it. I'd go so far to say that it is a virus in consciousness.
Interesting you say virus as in the movie The Matrix. So...Want to take an amazing look at the rabbit hole? I totally recommend this book to everyone. A Beginner's Guide to REALITY, by Jim Baggott The book for anyone who has ever wondered what is real and how we know.   
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: humans are robots [Re: Icelander]
#7714660 - 12/04/07 10:20 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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One of my favorite quotes:
We reproduce catastrophe because we ourselves are traumatized – both as a species and individually, beginning at birth. Because we are wounded, we have put up psychic defenses against reality and have become so cut off from direct participation in the multidimensional wilderness in which we are embedded that all we can do is to navigate our way cautiously through a humanly designed day-to-day substitute world of symbols - a world of dollars, minutes, numbers, images and words that are constantly being manipulated to wring the most possible profit from every conceivable circumstance. The body and spirit both rebel - David Watson (The Pathology of Civilization)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: humans are robots [Re: Middleman]
#7714721 - 12/04/07 10:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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This is a very accurate quote IMO.
The most important question for those who care is,"what can I do about this"? There are no easy answers. And then you have to ask yourself "what's really at stake here"? Like Cypher in the Matrix one will have to ask the question,"what is more real", the physical world or the world of the mind? Think hard before you decide which would be your choice. Life in the cold hard light of the real world "eating the same goddamn goop every day" or would you prefer to go back to sleep, all memory of the real world erased, be rich and famous (the promise of the matrix) and live out the celebrity lifestyle of your dreams?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: humans are robots [Re: Icelander]
#7715168 - 12/04/07 12:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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"A difference that makes no difference, IS no difference." ~ Spock
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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"The creature within me is gone. I am free of it, and the pain. I am also quite blind. An equitable trade, Doctor. Thank you." ~ Spock
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: humans are robots [Re: Middleman]
#7715803 - 12/04/07 02:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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"The creature within me is gone. I am free of it, and the pain." ~ Shmoopy's mom
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe



Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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Re: humans are robots [Re: Middleman]
#7719144 - 12/05/07 10:52 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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No.. robots dont do stupid, strange and absurd things like humans do.
Humans have very interesting emotions.
Even think of embarassment. Thats like the worst.. being embarassed infront of alot of people. We feel stupid and turn beet-red and act in strange ways. Robots wouldn't do that shit.
but i get what you're saying.
In the end, yes we are machines, so are all animals. We are all self-made machines.. somehow.
-------------------- Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: humans are robots [Re: Ginseng1]
#7719272 - 12/05/07 11:25 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah, having emotions is stupid.  Feeling embarrassed or fearsome is low and robots kick ass for not feeling all that shit. I have no respect and tolerance towards this kind of thinking, it is a low and pathetic way of acting like sorry asses, running away from responsibility and it always leads to psychosis. Being human is such a complex and interesting experience and limiting our awareness only to these aspects, emphasizing only this aspect of who we are is just sad and frankly is a place where I don't want to be. We have all the means to make our lives the way we want, to work on ourselves and become our ideal, feel everything there is to feel in this human form... it is all part of this amazing experience. Why should we feel disgusted for what we are? Tell me, what's the reason for doing so, when instead we could choose to let this life flow naturally, wonder at the multitude of ways in which we exist and coexist? Yes, we have robot characteristics. But are these the only ones that we have? Didn't we, by any chance, create those robots? Can robots create? I think that maybe the most important trait that we have is exactly this creativity and ability to expand it in every possible aspect of our lives.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: humans are robots [Re: Middleman]
#7719290 - 12/05/07 11:32 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Middleman said: One of my favorite quotes:
We reproduce catastrophe because we ourselves are traumatized – both as a species and individually, beginning at birth. Because we are wounded, we have put up psychic defenses against reality and have become so cut off from direct participation in the multidimensional wilderness in which we are embedded that all we can do is to navigate our way cautiously through a humanly designed day-to-day substitute world of symbols - a world of dollars, minutes, numbers, images and words that are constantly being manipulated to wring the most possible profit from every conceivable circumstance. The body and spirit both rebel - David Watson (The Pathology of Civilization)
Yes.
The universe-as-machine metaphor annoys the shit out of me. I read a great book once, called "The Death of Nature" by Carolyn Merchant, in which she researched the origins of that idea and it's political/social context, and argued that it was a part of an ideological development away from the previous universe-as-organism metaphor that underscored a relationship to our environment as one of respect and care to one of utilitarian exploitation. I highly recommend the book.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: humans are robots [Re: Icelander]
#7719686 - 12/05/07 01:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: I change my mind from last night. Although we may be robots, there are some people out there who are good enough imitations of the real thing.
Quote:
Beyond that we have a culture that creates a "hyper reality" that has nothing much to do with our natural reality
This is very strange indeed. From my perspective, this hyper reality has a life of its own in the minds of individuals - it exists because enough people believe it does. I examined it once while on LSD, and it kind of looked like this picture:

This hyper reality limits the mind greatly and stifles self expression in those that put their faith in it. I'd go so far to say that it is a virus in consciousness.
Interesting you say virus as in the movie The Matrix. So...Want to take an amazing look at the rabbit hole? I totally recommend this book to everyone. A Beginner's Guide to REALITY, by Jim Baggott The book for anyone who has ever wondered what is real and how we know.   
Thanks for the suggestion, I'll definitely check it out. So far every book that has been recommended to me on the Shroomery has been a very good read, but I'm not surprised.
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe



Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Yeah, having emotions is stupid.  Feeling embarrassed or fearsome is low and robots kick ass for not feeling all that shit. I have no respect and tolerance towards this kind of thinking, it is a low and pathetic way of acting like sorry asses, running away from responsibility and it always leads to psychosis. Being human is such a complex and interesting experience and limiting our awareness only to these aspects, emphasizing only this aspect of who we are is just sad and frankly is a place where I don't want to be. We have all the means to make our lives the way we want, to work on ourselves and become our ideal, feel everything there is to feel in this human form... it is all part of this amazing experience. Why should we feel disgusted for what we are? Tell me, what's the reason for doing so, when instead we could choose to let this life flow naturally, wonder at the multitude of ways in which we exist and coexist? Yes, we have robot characteristics. But are these the only ones that we have? Didn't we, by any chance, create those robots? Can robots create? I think that maybe the most important trait that we have is exactly this creativity and ability to expand it in every possible aspect of our lives.
buddy please quit rolling your eyes.
I never said it was "low" to have emotions. And I never said that having emotions is stupid. I said humans sometimes act in very stupid and irrational ways because of them. You're just pissing yourself off because you misunderstood my post.
The fact that you would think I would have no appreciation for humans, life, creation, and the power we have bestowed in all those aspects bothers me. I love being human, I love my family, I love my friends and I love this experience (most of the time). I wouldn't trade them for anything. Yes.. emotions are very complex indeed..
I was just pointing out the fact that a robot that has the ability to think in such complex yet rigid ways would easily sway his way around "emotions". A very beaurocratic system of the mind would easily flush the whole "emotion" agenda down the fuckin toilet. I am not one of those, however I will be critical of some emotions and the human behaviour that results, because this is an honest universe, and in the universe there are honest mistakes.
Emotions are a double edged sword bro..
Motherfucker flies sky-high opressing an entire population because makes him feel "big"... to control. Makes him go to bed with a smile on his fat fuckin face. This is something that a human might do. Now, what does that emotion serve for creation? Does is serve an absurd cause? What does it serve for the cosmos and All-That-Is?
Edited by Ginseng1 (12/05/07 11:22 PM)
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: humans are robots [Re: Ginseng1]
#7722484 - 12/05/07 11:26 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Emotions are a double edged sword anyways..
If emotions are neither good nor bad.. then there seems little point in getting angry about them. not that i'm saying there's anything wrong with anger..
in your example it sounds like you're talking about desire, not emotion. in my opinion, desires and emotions aren't necessarily "useful" for anything, they are just a product of a universe of infinite possibility.
btw mushroomtrip is a girl
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: humans are robots [Re: Ginseng1]
#7723491 - 12/06/07 08:11 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Ginseng1 said:
buddy please quit rolling your eyes.

Quote:
I never said it was "low" to have emotions. And I never said that having emotions is stupid. I said humans sometimes act in very stupid and irrational ways because of them. You're just pissing yourself off because you misunderstood my post.
The fact that you would think I would have no appreciation for humans, life, creation, and the power we have bestowed in all those aspects bothers me. I love being human, I love my family, I love my friends and I love this experience (most of the time). I wouldn't trade them for anything. Yes.. emotions are very complex indeed..
So you're saying that it's not stupid to feel embarrassed or frustrated, but it's stupid to act according to those feelings. What's the difference?  Honestly I fail to see it.  Generally when someone feels fear or frustration acts as influenced by those feelings. And most of the times the reaction is not so intelligent or wise. It's cause and effect. You can't say that you're ok with the cause but it's the effect that sucks, because those two are directly related. It is true that there are a limited number of cases in which people are able to control those emotions and stop acting so stupid, but that's already a different discussion. So if any, you misunderstood your post, not me.  Let's see again what you said:
Quote:
Even think of embarassment. Thats like the worst.. being embarassed infront of alot of people. We feel stupid and turn beet-red and act in strange ways. Robots wouldn't do that shit.
Sounds pretty obvious to me. Also I fail to see the point of comparing humans with robots in that domain. Of course, you could argue and say that you made this statement because it true. And then I could argue and say that it is exactly why I'm wondering about your reasons. The fact that robots don't have emotions and humans have is SO obvious that it doesn't need to be specified just for the sake of specifying it. Which means that the purpose was a lot more. And using deduction, correlating this statement with others that you made, leads me to the conclusion that you were just using that to whine. Correct me if I'm wrong, in a civilized way if possible. 
Quote:
I was just pointing out the fact that a robot that has the ability to think in such complex yet rigid ways would easily sway his way around "emotions". A very beaurocratic system of the mind would easily flush the whole "emotion" agenda down the fuckin toilet. I am not one of those, however I will be critical of some emotions and the human behaviour that results, because this is an honest universe, and in the universe there are honest mistakes.
Emotions are a double edged sword bro..
And I am pointing out that humans can rid themselves of acting "stupid" too, and they don't need to lose their emotions. This happens when we decide to stop lying to ourselves and understand our reasons. Feeling and reasoning don't have to exclude each other. In fact, it seems to work the best when we use them together.
Quote:
Motherfucker flies sky-high opressing an entire population because makes him feel "big"... to control. Makes him go to bed with a smile on his fat fuckin face. This is something that a human might do. Now, what does that emotion serve for creation? Does is serve an absurd cause? What does it serve for the cosmos and All-That-Is?
Nobody "controls" anybody. I keep hearing this thing that in this world there are those who control and those who are being controlled. It's far from being true. I would go up to the point that there are people who try to impose their will on others, and that there are also people who allow this kind of behavior. I'm sure that you're able to understand the distinction. Both rulers and ruled consciously choose and assume their roles. Also you said: Quote:
"This is something that a human might do."
As opposed to robot? What if a robot is programmed to act with authority?  As EternalCowabunga said, I don't think that emotion are here for a purpose in the ways you suggest. It is all a part of the experience of being human. That we are able to find a (personal) purpose to emotions is entirely different and it doesn't mean that the Universe is trying to tell us something through them. Or that we modify the cosmos each time we make use of emotions.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Ginseng1
Elegant Universe



Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,310
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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Ok ms. teasy thighs... you got me!
I think I can sum up my thoughts like this.. even though I may not have made sense before.
Emotions are for guidance. They exist for a reason. Human interpretation of emotions nowadays is flawd and we have been programmed to percieve our life and the external world in a completely different way than what was intended. Intended by whom? The robots.
-------------------- Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...
Edited by Ginseng1 (12/06/07 11:07 PM)
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ObliviousSeeker
Stranger


Registered: 08/25/06
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Everything you think is completely subjective. Do you want to be a robot? Yea, you can look at it like that... The again we created the idea of robots, so how can you use something we created to define ourselves? ;o
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Ozekat
Cosmic Observer



Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 186
Loc: Kentucky
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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This is all very interesting, however what about the Annunaki?
-------------------- Tension is who you think you should be. Relaxation is who you are. - Chinese Proverb
Beauty & Simplicity
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