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InvisibleZShroom
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Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes?
    #7710170 - 12/03/07 12:19 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/


I thought this movie was informatitive and easy to understand. I mean I know there are alot of people out there that still dont wanna believe in "conspiracy" theorys, but i mean after watching this you really dont have a choice. And also it is not like this movie is just a bunch of ideas and thoughts...no it is a movie with ideas with facts to back them up, so like i said....go ahead and try. I was half tempted to put this in the P&S forum but i know they would flip out and write a bunch of crazy things saying how the movie is not good. Whatever just watch and respond....:mushroom2::thumbup:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: ZShroom]
    #7710198 - 12/03/07 12:29 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Since you are inviting us to "poke holes," can I assume that you are waiving the right to certain protections from criticism implicit in the forum rules?

I have to go somewhere right now, but I'll be back later to watch the video and critique it. Although I haven't seen it yet, I've seen the kind of this people have been spouting after seeing it, so I suspect I'll have quite a few holes to poke in the theory.


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InvisibleZShroom
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7710261 - 12/03/07 12:52 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

OK well I look forward to what you have to say. I just watched it for the second time and i am very angry about what has happened so far and what WILL happen in the future if we don't do something about this. Doesn't really seem there is too much we can do now that this is so far along. What really makes these things work is people like you silversoul, I know you are just trying question what is real and not but if people like you keep trying to shoot down any idea of conspiracy it is simply feeding their fire and keeping us (citizens) down. Oh and i take that back if you agree with the movie, i can't see how you wouldn't.:eek:


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InvisibleZShroom
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: ZShroom]
    #7710268 - 12/03/07 12:54 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

and yes fuck the rules, i wanna know what people think...i mean the movie is very one sided but i cant seem to think that any of it is not true. Government is not the answer, nor is religion......we need something new......really doubt we will have freedom ever though.


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Registered: 04/27/06
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: ZShroom]
    #7710327 - 12/03/07 01:12 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

the message of the movie is

organized religion and
organized government

cannot be trusted, ever.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #7710395 - 12/03/07 01:32 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

This is a good movie. It doesn't claim to know all the answers but it does a very good job of poking fingers in the many holes of the current power structure.. which there are no end to.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 8,396
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: ZShroom]
    #7710449 - 12/03/07 01:45 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I think there have been a few Zeitgeist bashing threads in S+P, maybe those in here will have wider minds...

I really enjoyed Zeitgeist, it's well put together and the soundtrack makes it more interesting than others like it.
I swear there's subliminal messages that cause people to talk about it, I've never seen so much buzz.

Though the info at the beginning isn't 100% correct, the rest of it is, imo.

The Love > Fear bit at the end is a nice sentiment but doesn't really properly empower the viewer, like most New Age foo-foo.

The movie also doesn't give proper recognition to the pioneering researchers of this info except to some in the credits at the end.

It also quotes David Icke quoting Bill Hicks, it really annoyed me that Icke hijacked Hicks' bits without even mentioning him in his talks.

Boooooo Icke. :thumbdown:

But overall I'm happy to see this information finally hitting the mainstream, times they are a changin... :rockon:

Related interest Videos:

[url=
1]End Game[/url]

[url=
5]The Pharmacratic Inquisition[/url]

The Naked Truth

Seallion's Syncromystical Vids - Outstanding independent research, imo. You gotta be a little nuts to see the connections. :crazy2:


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InvisibleJack Albertson
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Middleman]
    #7710637 - 12/03/07 02:18 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I bash this movie constantly and mind is infinitely wide. Ive said id once and i'll say it again. this movie is pretentious.


Edited by ts727 (12/03/07 02:18 PM)


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Jack Albertson]
    #7710685 - 12/03/07 02:24 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

It brings up a lot of good points though.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 8,396
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Jack Albertson]
    #7710724 - 12/03/07 02:29 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ts727 said:
I bash this movie constantly and mind is infinitely wide. Ive said id once and i'll say it again. this movie is pretentious.




Pretentious? Come on, you can do better than that. Calling something pretentious is a shortcut to thinking.


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InvisibleJack Albertson
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Middleman]
    #7710739 - 12/03/07 02:31 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

your point being? i just didnt want to waste time discussing ive talked about this movie enough. there's much better media out.


--------------------
Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time
TRANSCEND



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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 8,396
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Jack Albertson]
    #7710750 - 12/03/07 02:32 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Such as?


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InvisibleJack Albertson
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Middleman]
    #7710759 - 12/03/07 02:34 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

although i dont agree with his religious ties anything alex jones puts out is gold.


--------------------
Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time
TRANSCEND



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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 8,396
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Jack Albertson]
    #7710886 - 12/03/07 02:57 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Right on, Alex Jones has balls of steel.

Have you seen his most recent flick, End Game (above)?

All I can say is Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck... :nonono:


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InvisibleMastamike1118
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Middleman]
    #7711222 - 12/03/07 04:25 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

the law is such bullshit i have no respect for the law or the powers of the law because the law refuses to respect me...

fucking shit what did u think of the jugo chaves part?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: ZShroom]
    #7711242 - 12/03/07 04:32 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Ok, my main beef with the movie is Part I, and it insinuation that Jesus was a mythological construct based on Horus and astrology. Not that I discount the theory entirely, but they make a lot of the same baseless claims that I've seen so many others make.

"Horus" does not mean "sun" or "light." It means "high" or "distant," which reflects his nature as the sky(hence his representation as a hawk). Not merely a sun god, it was said that the sun was his right eye and the moon was his left. Thus, they misrepresent his conflict with Set. I can find no reference to him being born on December 25. As for being born of a virgin, well, kind of. Set had killed Osiris, but Isis(whose name was not Merri) used his phallus to impregnate herself. So it's more a matter of him being a product of necrophilia than of a virgin birth. I can find no reference to him being a teacher at age 12, being baptized, or having 12 disciples. I can find no reference to him being crucified or resurrected(his father Osiris was resurrected, but not crucified). The only real confirmed connections I can find between Jesus and Horus are that he was the "Son of God"(of course, as with any polytheistic system, several gods had children), and his mother Isis was called "Queen of Heaven."

On Krishna, I can find no reference to a star in the East or Devaki being a virgin. Nor is there any reference to him being resurrected.

Dionysus and Mithras are the two best cases they have, and even there I can't confirm all the claims made.

Another issue I have is where they talk about the "M" shape of the sign Virgo, thus explaining the names of other prophet's mothers starting with "M," including Maya, the mother of the Buddha. Does he realize that in India they used Vedic astrology rather than Western astrology? Does he further realize that they used the Sanskrit alphabet, rather than the English one? The letter "M" is irrelevant here.

Then he talks about "Bethlehem" referring to Virgo. DOES HE REALIZE THAT BETHLEHEM IS AN ACTUAL PLACE?! How about the fact that Jewish prophecy predicted that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem?

The point about December 25th is well-made. Of course, December 25th is not mentioned in the Bible, and it wasn't until about the 3rd or 4th century that Christians began to celebrate Christmas on that date, probably to fit in with the Romans celebrating Saturnalia, or Mithraism celebrating Mithras' birth. However, their point about the sun being over the Southern Cross is irrelevant, since the Southern Cross is not visible from the northern hemisphere.

Then they make the point about the timing of Easter celebrating the Spring Solstice, apparently oblivious to its connection to the Jewish holiday of Passover.

It also talks of Jesus' 12 disciples representing the 12 signs of the zodiac, without apparently considering that Jesus might have deliberately chosen 12 to correspond to the 12 tribes of Israel.

Also, insisting that the cross comes from the zodiac may have some merit, but he seems to ignore the fact that Romans did, in fact, crucify people quite readily. Also, the cross was not used in early Christian symbolism(it was originally seen as an embarrassment, until Christian theology focused more on his role as the "Lamb of God").

He says that the idea of "end of the world" is a misinterpreted astrological allegory. Yet almost every religion has some end times prophecy. Are we to believe that Christianity was meant to be unique by not having an end times prophecy?

Then he talks about Noah's ark being a plagiarism of the Epic of Gilgamesh. It is more likely that both stories were based on a real flood that occurred at one point, probably in what is now the Black Sea.

He then talks about parallels between Moses and Sargon of Akkad. Well, it turns out that there are a lot of missing pieces in the "Sargon legend," many of which it appears he is trying to fill in out of nowhere. All the story of Sargon actually says is that he was born of one father and raised by a king. The missing pieces in between are lost to history.

Then he talks about Moses as lawgiver being a plagiarism because so many other cultures have a similar figure. Gee, who would've thought that laws would be a universal phenomenon among civilized cultures? It then further insults my intelligence by saying that the ten commandments are taken from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, as if stealing, murder, and adultery were not universal taboos.

As for Egypt being the basis for the Judeo-Christian tradition, what culture do you think Moses led his people out of? OF COURSE Egyptian culture would have affected them.

As for Josephus' reference to Jesus being a forgery(ironic, since this documentary cites so many unsupported facts), that is still a matter of debate(link).

It should also be noted that no references to the Buddha were made in his lifetime, nor do such records exist for Alexander the Great(though he left behind an empire as evidence of having been there). These people were both royalty, while Jesus was a mere peasant. I should hardly think it a surprise that no historical references were made to him during his lifetime.

Then they talk about the political establishment of Rome making Jesus into a historical figure for political control. Excuse me, but weren't the Romans feeding Christians to the lions?! Does the name Nero ring a bell for anyone?

Part 1 badly misinterprets the common use and association of archetypes across different cultures, and makes numerous bogus claims about history and mythology. It also overemphasizes the connection between Christianity and other religions while ignoring more obvious connections to the Jewish tradition in which it is rooted.

I think I've spent enough time and space addressing the overwhelming amount of bullshit in part 1, so I don't feel the need to address the subject matter of parts 2 and 3, which have been covered in numerous other threads. Quite honestly, I expected this film to have a little more redeeming value than it did, but while a few of the points it brings up have some legitimacy, they can all be interpreted in other ways, and only by mixing these claims with tons of misinformation can they convincingly make the case that they do.


--------------------


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InvisibleJack Albertson
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Registered: 04/14/06
Posts: 10,065
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7711349 - 12/03/07 04:55 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Ok, my main beef with the movie is Part I, and it insinuation that Jesus was a mythological construct based on Horus and astrology. Not that I discount the theory entirely, but they make a lot of the same baseless claims that I've seen so many others make.

"Horus" does not mean "sun" or "light." It means "high" or "distant," which reflects his nature as the sky(hence his representation as a hawk). Not merely a sun god, it was said that the sun was his right eye and the moon was his left. Thus, they misrepresent his conflict with Set. I can find no reference to him being born on December 25. As for being born of a virgin, well, kind of. Set had killed Osiris, but Isis(whose name was not Merri) used his phallus to impregnate herself. So it's more a matter of him being a product of necrophilia than of a virgin birth. I can find no reference to him being a teacher at age 12, being baptized, or having 12 disciples. I can find no reference to him being crucified or resurrected(his father Osiris was resurrected, but not crucified). The only real confirmed connections I can find between Jesus and Horus are that he was the "Son of God"(of course, as with any polytheistic system, several gods had children), and his mother Isis was called "Queen of Heaven."

On Krishna, I can find no reference to a star in the East or Devaki being a virgin. Nor is there any reference to him being resurrected.

Dionysus and Mithras are the two best cases they have, and even there I can't confirm all the claims made.

Another issue I have is where they talk about the "M" shape of the sign Virgo, thus explaining the names of other prophet's mothers starting with "M," including Maya, the mother of the Buddha. Does he realize that in India they used Vedic astrology rather than Western astrology? Does he further realize that they used the Sanskrit alphabet, rather than the English one? The letter "M" is irrelevant here.

Then he talks about "Bethlehem" referring to Virgo. DOES HE REALIZE THAT BETHLEHEM IS AN ACTUAL PLACE?! How about the fact that Jewish prophecy predicted that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem?

The point about December 25th is well-made. Of course, December 25th is not mentioned in the Bible, and it wasn't until about the 3rd or 4th century that Christians began to celebrate Christmas on that date, probably to fit in with the Romans celebrating Saturnalia, or Mithraism celebrating Mithras' birth. However, their point about the sun being over the Southern Cross is irrelevant, since the Southern Cross is not visible from the northern hemisphere.

Then they make the point about the timing of Easter celebrating the Spring Solstice, apparently oblivious to its connection to the Jewish holiday of Passover.

It also talks of Jesus' 12 disciples representing the 12 signs of the zodiac, without apparently considering that Jesus might have deliberately chosen 12 to correspond to the 12 tribes of Israel.

Also, insisting that the cross comes from the zodiac may have some merit, but he seems to ignore the fact that Romans did, in fact, crucify people quite readily. Also, the cross was not used in early Christian symbolism(it was originally seen as an embarrassment, until Christian theology focused more on his role as the "Lamb of God").

He says that the idea of "end of the world" is a misinterpreted astrological allegory. Yet almost every religion has some end times prophecy. Are we to believe that Christianity was meant to be unique by not having an end times prophecy?

Then he talks about Noah's ark being a plagiarism of the Epic of Gilgamesh. It is more likely that both stories were based on a real flood that occurred at one point, probably in what is now the Black Sea.

He then talks about parallels between Moses and Sargon of Akkad. Well, it turns out that there are a lot of missing pieces in the "Sargon legend," many of which it appears he is trying to fill in out of nowhere. All the story of Sargon actually says is that he was born of one father and raised by a king. The missing pieces in between are lost to history.

Then he talks about Moses as lawgiver being a plagiarism because so many other cultures have a similar figure. Gee, who would've thought that laws would be a universal phenomenon among civilized cultures? It then further insults my intelligence by saying that the ten commandments are taken from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, as if stealing, murder, and adultery were not universal taboos.

As for Egypt being the basis for the Judeo-Christian tradition, what culture do you think Moses led his people out of? OF COURSE Egyptian culture would have affected them.

As for Josephus' reference to Jesus being a forgery(ironic, since this documentary cites so many unsupported facts), that is still a matter of debate(link).

It should also be noted that no references to the Buddha were made in his lifetime, nor do such records exist for Alexander the Great(though he left behind an empire as evidence of having been there). These people were both royalty, while Jesus was a mere peasant. I should hardly think it a surprise that no historical references were made to him during his lifetime.

Then they talk about the political establishment of Rome making Jesus into a historical figure for political control. Excuse me, but weren't the Romans feeding Christians to the lions?! Does the name Nero ring a bell for anyone?

Part 1 badly misinterprets the common use and association of archetypes across different cultures, and makes numerous bogus claims about history and mythology. It also overemphasizes the connection between Christianity and other religions while ignoring more obvious connections to the Jewish tradition in which it is rooted.

I think I've spent enough time and space addressing the overwhelming amount of bullshit in part 1, so I don't feel the need to address the subject matter of parts 2 and 3, which have been covered in numerous other threads. Quite honestly, I expected this film to have a little more redeeming value than it did, but while a few of the points it brings up have some legitimacy, they can all be interpreted in other ways, and only by mixing these claims with tons of misinformation can they convincingly make the case that they do.


Didnt read the whole thing but that's my problem with it too.


--------------------
Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time
TRANSCEND



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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 8,396
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7711701 - 12/03/07 06:34 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Ok, my main beef with the movie is Part I, and it insinuation that Jesus was a mythological construct based on Horus and astrology. Not that I discount the theory entirely, but they make a lot of the same baseless claims that I've seen so many others make.

"Horus" does not mean "sun" or "light." It means "high" or "distant," which reflects his nature as the sky(hence his representation as a hawk). Not merely a sun god, it was said that the sun was his right eye and the moon was his left. Thus, they misrepresent his conflict with Set. I can find no reference to him being born on December 25. As for being born of a virgin, well, kind of. Set had killed Osiris, but Isis(whose name was not Merri) used his phallus to impregnate herself. So it's more a matter of him being a product of necrophilia than of a virgin birth. I can find no reference to him being a teacher at age 12, being baptized, or having 12 disciples. I can find no reference to him being crucified or resurrected(his father Osiris was resurrected, but not crucified). The only real confirmed connections I can find between Jesus and Horus are that he was the "Son of God"(of course, as with any polytheistic system, several gods had children), and his mother Isis was called "Queen of Heaven."

On Krishna, I can find no reference to a star in the East or Devaki being a virgin. Nor is there any reference to him being resurrected.

Dionysus and Mithras are the two best cases they have, and even there I can't confirm all the claims made.

Another issue I have is where they talk about the "M" shape of the sign Virgo, thus explaining the names of other prophet's mothers starting with "M," including Maya, the mother of the Buddha. Does he realize that in India they used Vedic astrology rather than Western astrology? Does he further realize that they used the Sanskrit alphabet, rather than the English one? The letter "M" is irrelevant here.

Then he talks about "Bethlehem" referring to Virgo. DOES HE REALIZE THAT BETHLEHEM IS AN ACTUAL PLACE?! How about the fact that Jewish prophecy predicted that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem?

The point about December 25th is well-made. Of course, December 25th is not mentioned in the Bible, and it wasn't until about the 3rd or 4th century that Christians began to celebrate Christmas on that date, probably to fit in with the Romans celebrating Saturnalia, or Mithraism celebrating Mithras' birth. However, their point about the sun being over the Southern Cross is irrelevant, since the Southern Cross is not visible from the northern hemisphere.

Then they make the point about the timing of Easter celebrating the Spring Solstice, apparently oblivious to its connection to the Jewish holiday of Passover.

It also talks of Jesus' 12 disciples representing the 12 signs of the zodiac, without apparently considering that Jesus might have deliberately chosen 12 to correspond to the 12 tribes of Israel.

Also, insisting that the cross comes from the zodiac may have some merit, but he seems to ignore the fact that Romans did, in fact, crucify people quite readily. Also, the cross was not used in early Christian symbolism(it was originally seen as an embarrassment, until Christian theology focused more on his role as the "Lamb of God").

He says that the idea of "end of the world" is a misinterpreted astrological allegory. Yet almost every religion has some end times prophecy. Are we to believe that Christianity was meant to be unique by not having an end times prophecy?

Then he talks about Noah's ark being a plagiarism of the Epic of Gilgamesh. It is more likely that both stories were based on a real flood that occurred at one point, probably in what is now the Black Sea.

He then talks about parallels between Moses and Sargon of Akkad. Well, it turns out that there are a lot of missing pieces in the "Sargon legend," many of which it appears he is trying to fill in out of nowhere. All the story of Sargon actually says is that he was born of one father and raised by a king. The missing pieces in between are lost to history.

Then he talks about Moses as lawgiver being a plagiarism because so many other cultures have a similar figure. Gee, who would've thought that laws would be a universal phenomenon among civilized cultures? It then further insults my intelligence by saying that the ten commandments are taken from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, as if stealing, murder, and adultery were not universal taboos.

As for Egypt being the basis for the Judeo-Christian tradition, what culture do you think Moses led his people out of? OF COURSE Egyptian culture would have affected them.

As for Josephus' reference to Jesus being a forgery(ironic, since this documentary cites so many unsupported facts), that is still a matter of debate(link).

It should also be noted that no references to the Buddha were made in his lifetime, nor do such records exist for Alexander the Great(though he left behind an empire as evidence of having been there). These people were both royalty, while Jesus was a mere peasant. I should hardly think it a surprise that no historical references were made to him during his lifetime.

Then they talk about the political establishment of Rome making Jesus into a historical figure for political control. Excuse me, but weren't the Romans feeding Christians to the lions?! Does the name Nero ring a bell for anyone?

Part 1 badly misinterprets the common use and association of archetypes across different cultures, and makes numerous bogus claims about history and mythology. It also overemphasizes the connection between Christianity and other religions while ignoring more obvious connections to the Jewish tradition in which it is rooted.

I think I've spent enough time and space addressing the overwhelming amount of bullshit in part 1, so I don't feel the need to address the subject matter of parts 2 and 3, which have been covered in numerous other threads. Quite honestly, I expected this film to have a little more redeeming value than it did, but while a few of the points it brings up have some legitimacy, they can all be interpreted in other ways, and only by mixing these claims with tons of misinformation can they convincingly make the case that they do.




I'd sit and poke holes in your holes but I'm too tired.

The point is that all religions (even Taoism and Buddhism) are integrally linked with, if not based upon, Astronomy.

I suspect that Tutankhaten aka Tutankhamun was the orginal sacrificial Sun king and "Annointed One".


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InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides


Registered: 05/17/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Jack Albertson]
    #7711775 - 12/03/07 06:46 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ts727 said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Ok, my main beef with the movie is Part I, and it insinuation that Jesus was a mythological construct based on Horus and astrology.  Not that I discount the theory entirely, but they make a lot of the same baseless claims that I've seen so many others make.

"Horus" does not mean "sun" or "light."  It means "high" or "distant," which reflects his nature as the sky(hence his representation as a hawk).  Not merely a sun god, it was said that the sun was his right eye and the moon was his left.  Thus, they misrepresent his conflict with Set.  I can find no reference to him being born on December 25.  As for being born of a virgin, well, kind of.  Set had killed Osiris, but Isis(whose name was not Merri) used his phallus to impregnate herself.  So it's more a matter of him being a product of necrophilia than of a virgin birth.  I can find no reference to him being a teacher at age 12, being baptized, or having 12 disciples.  I can find no reference to him being crucified or resurrected(his father Osiris was resurrected, but not crucified).  The only real confirmed connections I can find between Jesus and Horus are that he was the "Son of God"(of course, as with any polytheistic system, several gods had children), and his mother Isis was called "Queen of Heaven."

On Krishna, I can find no reference to a star in the East or Devaki being a virgin.  Nor is there any reference to him being resurrected.

Dionysus and Mithras are the two best cases they have, and even there I can't confirm all the claims made.

Another issue I have is where they talk about the "M" shape of the sign Virgo, thus explaining the names of other prophet's mothers starting with "M," including Maya, the mother of the Buddha.  Does he realize that in India they used Vedic astrology rather than Western astrology?  Does he further realize that they used the Sanskrit alphabet, rather than the English one?  The letter "M" is irrelevant here. 

Then he talks about "Bethlehem" referring to Virgo.  DOES HE REALIZE THAT BETHLEHEM IS AN ACTUAL PLACE?!  How about the fact that Jewish prophecy predicted that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem?

The point about December 25th is well-made.  Of course, December 25th is not mentioned in the Bible, and it wasn't until about the 3rd or 4th century that Christians began to celebrate Christmas on that date, probably to fit in with the Romans celebrating Saturnalia, or Mithraism celebrating Mithras' birth.  However, their point about the sun being over the Southern Cross is irrelevant, since the Southern Cross is not visible from the northern hemisphere.

Then they make the point about the timing of Easter celebrating the Spring Solstice, apparently oblivious to its connection to the Jewish holiday of Passover.

It also talks of Jesus' 12 disciples representing the 12 signs of the zodiac, without apparently considering that Jesus might have deliberately chosen 12 to correspond to the 12 tribes of Israel.

Also, insisting that the cross comes from the zodiac may have some merit, but he seems to ignore the fact that Romans did, in fact, crucify people quite readily.  Also, the cross was not used in early Christian symbolism(it was originally seen as an embarrassment, until Christian theology focused more on his role as the "Lamb of God").

He says that the idea of "end of the world" is a misinterpreted astrological allegory.  Yet almost every religion has some end times prophecy.  Are we to believe that Christianity was meant to be unique by not having an end times prophecy?

Then he talks about Noah's ark being a plagiarism of the Epic of Gilgamesh.  It is more likely that both stories were based on a real flood that occurred at one point, probably in what is now the Black Sea.

He then talks about parallels between Moses and Sargon of Akkad.  Well, it turns out that there are a lot of missing pieces in the "Sargon legend," many of which it appears he is trying to fill in out of nowhere.  All the story of Sargon actually says is that he was born of one father and raised by a king.  The missing pieces in between are lost to history.

Then he talks about Moses as lawgiver being a plagiarism because so many other cultures have a similar figure.  Gee, who would've thought that laws would be a universal phenomenon among civilized cultures?  It then further insults my intelligence by saying that the ten commandments are taken from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, as if stealing, murder, and adultery were not universal taboos.

As for Egypt being the basis for the Judeo-Christian tradition, what culture do you think Moses led his people out of?  OF COURSE Egyptian culture would have affected them.

As for Josephus' reference to Jesus being a forgery(ironic, since this documentary cites so many unsupported facts), that is still a matter of debate(link).

It should also be noted that no references to the Buddha were made in his lifetime, nor do such records exist for Alexander the Great(though he left behind an empire as evidence of having been there).  These people were both royalty, while Jesus was a mere peasant.  I should hardly think it a surprise that no historical references were made to him during his lifetime.

Then they talk about the political establishment of Rome making Jesus into a historical figure for political control.  Excuse me, but weren't the Romans feeding Christians to the lions?!  Does the name Nero ring a bell for anyone?

Part 1 badly misinterprets the common use and association of archetypes across different cultures, and makes numerous bogus claims about history and mythology.  It also overemphasizes the connection between Christianity and other religions while ignoring more obvious connections to the Jewish tradition in which it is rooted.

I think I've spent enough time and space addressing the overwhelming amount of bullshit in part 1, so I don't feel the need to address the subject matter of parts 2 and 3, which have been covered in numerous other threads.  Quite honestly, I expected this film to have a little more redeeming value than it did, but while a few of the points it brings up have some legitimacy, they can all be interpreted in other ways, and only by mixing these claims with tons of misinformation can they convincingly make the case that they do.


Didnt read the whole thing but that's my problem with it too.




Sounds like some holes big enough to drive a truck through. :tongue:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Middleman]
    #7711831 - 12/03/07 06:53 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The point is that all religions (even Taoism and Buddhism) are integrally linked with, if not based upon, Astronomy.



I'm not denying that there's a connection. But correlation does not equal causation. Astrology ascribes archetypes to the stars and planets, while religion personifies archetypes as deities. But the common link here is archetypes. They did not originate with the stars, but were ascribed to them just as they were ascribed to various deities.

Quote:

I suspect that Tutankhaten aka Tutankhamun was the orginal sacrificial Sun king and "Annointed One".



And do you argue, based on that fact, that he was a mythological construct? Cuz I heard they found some tomb where he was buried.


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7713911 - 12/04/07 05:12 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

My point is that the lives of many avatars seem to echo the story of the Sun's passage through the Zodiac.
This doesn't mean they didn't exist, it simply means that there may be more to the Sun and stars than meets the eye.

Yes King Tut was real, but his official story isn't, imo.


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Middleman]
    #7714520 - 12/04/07 11:45 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

How is Taoism related to Astronomy?


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7714543 - 12/04/07 11:51 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Certain features of Taoist alchemy and talismanic symbolism have also penetrated the Tai Chi forms. As part of their contemplation of nature the Taoists observed the heavens and were keen students of astronomy and astrology. Movements of the Tai Chi Form such as:

* Step Up to Seven Stars
* Embrace the Moon
* Biggest Star in the Great Dipper
* Encase the Moon in Three Rings
* The Smallest Star in the Big Dipper
* Meteor Runs After Moon
* Heavenly Steed Soars Across the Sky




Here's some more info:

Quote:


Cosmology: Daoism has made a tremendous contribution to the development of ancient astronomy and has deepened man's understanding and mastery of the outside world. Daoism holds that the universe is created from emptiness. For example, The Book of the Supreme Venerable Sovereign's Opening of the Heavens 1 says that the evolutionary process of the universe is made up of many phases, such as "great origin", "chaotic origin", "supreme beginning", "supreme start", "supreme simplicity", "chaos", "nine palaces", and "original sovereign" (see p. 618, Vol. 34, The Daoist Canon 2). Although such a theory is still within the religious intellectual system, it initiates man's understanding of the universe and gestates the sprout of science of the universe. Daoists came to know gradually that the universe has gone through an evolutionary process of growing from small to large. Ge Hong adopts the view that "Pangu created the world" mentioned in Three-Five Calendar 3 by Xu Zheng of The Three Kingdoms, holding that "before the formation of heaven, earth, the sun and the moon, the universe was in the shape of an egg; chaotic, black and yellow," and that the heaven and earth were not created until Perfect Man Pangu roamed in the universe and created the sun and the moon (see Records of Immortals of the Original Beginning and the Highest Perfection 4, p. 23, vol. 3, in The Daoist Canon). Daoist Theories of the universe developed continuously afterwards. Daoism explains the structure of the universe with the theory of integral heaven, holding that heaven is a ball-shaped shell wrapping the earth, which floats in the ball of heaven in the shape of a board, while the sun, the moon, and stars are attached to the ball of heaven, and that the buoyant force of the "tie of the vital breath" enables heaven and earth not to fall. The famous Daoist Hao Datong of the Complete Perfection Tradition 5 was an expert at calendrics and arithmetic, while Zhao Youqin conducted large-scale research in astronomical physics. The latter studied solar and lunar eclipses and did optical experiments. Some of his experiments and discoveries recorded in his New Book on the Changing Astronomical Phenomena 6 were revolutionary in the history of world astronomy.

Astrology: Daoism holds that constellations in heaven are the abodes of spirits. Also due to the Daoist belief in the theory of correspondence between heaven and man, ancient Daoists devoted a great deal of energy to observing the stars and drawing star charts. The 28 constellations in heaven that signify energy nodes and orientations have caught people's attention ever since the emergence of Daoism. Daoism holds that worship of the Big Dipper could eliminate disasters and get rid of diseases, prolong the life span and achieve longevity. Therefore, in The Daoist Canon, there are a number of Daoist scriptures about prayer to the Big Dipper or concerning the Dipper constellation, and numerous scriptures are illustrated with the star chart of the Big Dipper. Many of the ancient Chinese astronomers and astrologists were Daoists or persons influenced by Daoism, such as Li Chunfeng, Yuan Tiangang, and so on.

Calendar: Based on the observation and research of the laws of heaven, earth, and the universe, Daoism establishes "calendar of 24 energy nodes" which bears important influence on subsequent Chinese calendars (For details, see p. 438, vol. 28, The Daoist Canon). In The Daoist Canon, there is also a Daoist calendar named "calendar of 28 constellations", a "solar calendar" which is different from that of the government. It prescribes that one year has 12 months and each month has 30 days, and divided a year in half, the first half starting with the Kui constellation and the second with the Jiao constellation. This calendar has major influence on the "calendar of 12 vital breaths" formulated by Shen Kuo.

Timers: The characteristics of Daoist cultivation methods determine that Daoists need exact timing when cultivating inner and outer alchemy. As a result, many Daoists delve into timing techniques so that they make much valuable contribution in this field. One of the early Daoist devotees' major suggestions accepted during the reign of Emperor Aidi of the Han dynasty is that the 100 degree-gradation, which is the gradation standard of the timing instrument "louke", is changed into 120 degree-graduation (see "Biography of Li Xun" in History of the Han). The Daoist Li Lan of the Northern Wei dynasty invented "chenglou" (steelyard timer). After being improved in the Song dynasty, it had been used by the government till the Northern Song dynasty. Tao Hongjing, a famous Daoist of the Southern Dynasties, once designed "natural louke". His reason was, "flowing water can be made into natural louke. Then the twelve hours circulate, and people do not have to wait and watch." (p. 735, vol. 22, The Daoist Canon.) Daoists of the Complete Perfection Tradition even invented some handy timing instruments that are "ingenious, delicate, and simple"(see p.137, vol. 32. The Daoist Canon).




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Offlineadrian7812
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: ZShroom]
    #7747805 - 12/12/07 02:54 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Even if there are mistakes in it. I still find it really interesting. Even if the whole thing was a lie, I would find it interesting.


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Nothing I say is true. It is entirely fictional. In fact, my life is entirely fictional. I do not exist.


Edited by adrian7812 (12/12/07 02:55 AM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Middleman]
    #7747811 - 12/12/07 02:59 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
Yes King Tut was real, but his official story isn't, imo.



What official story? You mean how he was the son of Akhenaten who died(might have been murder) at a young age? I think that's a matter of historical and archaeological record.


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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7748746 - 12/12/07 01:03 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Malevolent ETs are BEHIND ALLL OF THIS!!!!!!!!!!!


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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Ginseng1]
    #7775590 - 12/18/07 11:14 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Amazing!! No one has yet "poked holes"! All anyone here manages to do is correct the inaccuracies of a theologically based theory. The facts don't all have to add up to be primarily conclusive in parts 1 through 3. Zeitgeist remains substantial and is impervious to religious arguments. Being accurate or not is beside the point Zeitgeist relays to us, if your going to discredit this film look elsewhere than the religious aspect. You might be poking holes in Peter Joseph's understanding of religion but definitely not the film itself.


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: wyldeman007]
    #7775644 - 12/18/07 11:30 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

wyldeman007 said:
Amazing!! No one has yet "poked holes"!



Amazing!! You missed my rather long, detailed post!

Quote:

All anyone here manages to do is correct the inaccuracies of a theologically based theory.



And what exactly is your idea of "poking holes"?

Quote:

The facts don't all have to add up to be primarily conclusive in parts 1 through 3.



Huh? How exactly is something conclusive if the facts don't add up?

Quote:

Zeitgeist remains substantial and is impervious to religious arguments.



Please explain.

Quote:

Being accurate or not is beside the point Zeitgeist relays to us



How does this make any sense? It is supposed to be a documentary, no? How exactly is the accuracy of the facts presented in a documentary beside the point?

Quote:

if your going to discredit this film look elsewhere than the religious aspect.



I only had time and patience to address the religious aspect. The 9/11 conspiracy theory has been debated to death ad nauseam in the Political forum, and the federal reserve is not my area of expertise. I addressed the religious aspect because it was the most relevant to this forum, and is the context in which this film is most frequently cited. It was also the easiest for me to discredit, as it doesn't involve a government conspiracy, and includes historical claims which are easily refuted with a quick search on wikipedia.

Quote:

You might be poking holes in Peter Joseph's understanding of religion but definitely not the film itself.



I was poking holes in the first third of the film. I don't care as much about the other two parts because they've been addressed elsewhere.


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Offlinewyldeman007
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7775818 - 12/19/07 12:19 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

My points are as follows;

1. I read all 2 pages trust me..

2. Poking holes in the whole is what I mean.

3. What I mean by conclusive in this case, is you don't need Zeitgeist to prove that religion is irrelevant (people will believe in what ever religion they want) Zeitgeist isn't dependent on that fact...

4. I think 3 answers 4, but for your amusement: suggesting that religion has any argumentative power over Zeitgeist has no standing as ammunition. Zeitgeist deals with facts not opinions.

5. Accuracy of religious stories doesn't change the fact that there is no god. Of course a documentary needs to be accurate, only with the facts, religious interpretations are opinions and cannot be proven right or wrong.

6. Well said, but I think it's inappropriate to discuss this film in any religious way, its just an oxymoron if you ask me.

7. Fair enough, and very well analyzed; props.


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: wyldeman007]
    #7775857 - 12/19/07 12:32 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Poking holes in the whole is what I mean.



You don't really get the concept of "poking holes," do you?

Quote:

What I mean by conclusive in this case, is you don't need Zeitgeist to prove that religion is irrelevant (people will believe in what ever religion they want) Zeitgeist isn't dependent on that fact...



*sigh* You're not even making grammatical sense, let alone logical sense. Look, it's very simple: Zeitgeist, in the first part of the film, sets out to prove the hypothesis that all religion is reducible to astrotheology. I debunk their points one-by-one, and then offer a conclusion on why this theory does not make sense.

Quote:

suggesting that religion has any argumentative power over Zeitgeist has no standing as ammunition.



Where have I presented religion as having having argumentative power over Zeitgeist? I am using FACTS to argue against Zeitgeist, as well as explaining why the few facts that they get right don't really prove their point.

Quote:

Zeitgeist deals with facts not opinions.



Facts which I debunked as misinformation(I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they weren't just lying).

Quote:

Accuracy of religious stories doesn't change the fact that there is no god.



That is not a fact. It is speculation, and it is not even the point that Zeitgeist tries to make.

Quote:

Of course a documentary needs to be accurate, only with the facts, religious interpretations are opinions and cannot be proven right or wrong.



Their "facts" are inaccurate. I was "poking holes" by pointing out those inaccuracies as well as the flaw in their central argument.


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? *DELETED* [Re: Silversoul]
    #7775917 - 12/19/07 01:00 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by wyldeman007

Reason for deletion: Better one added



--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: wyldeman007]
    #7775935 - 12/19/07 01:05 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Is religion dangerous? Has religion been the bane of mankind in the past and has religion been used as terror tactics over communities?

I believe this to be the point of parts 1 2 3 of Zeitgeist, not the origins and histories of religion.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: wyldeman007]
    #7775992 - 12/19/07 01:28 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

By poking holes in the individual points they make, I show how the case they build is weak. But it let me break it down for you a little more simply. I'm not denying that the sun and planets didn't play a role in religion. The Sun is in fact rather common in religious symbolism. But if it was the sun they were worshiping, then why not leave it at that? Why create all these gods out of the sun and the stars? I'll tell you why: Because it's not the sun that they're worshiping. It's something much deeper which the sun merely represents to them. When dealing with divine concepts which transcend rational thought, concepts can only be expressed through archetypes, symbolism, and mythology. The sun itself is not the object of worship but a visible symbol of that which is revered. The pantheon of gods described a multitude of different archetypes which all dwelt within the human consciousness. So did the archetypes associated with the sun and planets. The source of religion is the collective unconscious, not the objects it assigns significance to.


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: wyldeman007]
    #7776001 - 12/19/07 01:31 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

wyldeman007 said:
Is religion dangerous? Has religion been the bane of mankind in the past and has religion been used as terror tactics over communities?

I believe this to be the point of parts 1 2 3 of Zeitgeist, not the origins and histories of religion.



If this was their intention, there was no need for this flawed astrotheological case they make. If they wanted to show that religion was dangerous, they could have just recycled the arguments of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens(though I still have some issues with their ideas as well).


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7776022 - 12/19/07 01:39 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

So let's agree to disagree and allow both our opinions to prevail. While the precedence of your argument revolves closely around religion and clearly you put much thought into it as you type, I can agree with a few of your positions. I can gather you have little respect for me and view me as 'below' your intelligence. Not that your opinion matters to me, I would just like to point out you haven't in any way 'outsmarted me'. You'll always have something to say and you will say it in such a way as to rouse a response. Thank you for this healthy conversation, maybe you don't believe me, but we both put a few items out there at least.


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: wyldeman007]
    #7776062 - 12/19/07 01:55 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I can gather you have little respect for me and view me as 'below' your intelligence.



What gives you that idea? I merely have trouble comprehending the points you are trying to make. If you made your points a bit clearer, we could have more open dialogue.


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7776595 - 12/19/07 08:56 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

All those movies are bullshit, especially where they pick any far distant hypothesis to use as the basis of their jeremiad. Religion and government are simply the haouse of cards which being vapid and lacking truth, are therefore leading us all to death in a handcart.

As for taoism and astrology, it is Chinese system and taoists use a double chart - white and black, one is for life, one is for death. As in, now you're here, later you'll be there. So 12 times 2 equals 24 signs in taoism astrology. It is mainly used for health diagnosis. They use it in small clans in Nepal. Or so the lama told me.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: ZShroom]
    #7776839 - 12/19/07 11:11 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ZShroom said:
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/


I thought this movie was informatitive and easy to understand. I mean I know there are alot of people out there that still dont wanna believe in "conspiracy" theorys, but i mean after watching this you really dont have a choice. And also it is not like this movie is just a bunch of ideas and thoughts...no it is a movie with ideas with facts to back them up, so like i said....go ahead and try. I was half tempted to put this in the P&S forum but i know they would flip out and write a bunch of crazy things saying how the movie is not good. Whatever just watch and respond....:mushroom2::thumbup:




the movie is very misleading

for example, in the third part there is a quote by jfk about secret societies and the implication is that he is talking about international banking conspiricy

however if you read the whole speach it is obvious that he is talking about communism

the makers of zeitgeist pick and choose which info they will show you and how much of it to use so that it supports their theories

part 1 deals with what silversoul was talking about... there are many false statements and very poor sources (such as masseys books on heiroglyphs from the 1800s)

part 2 deals with 9/11 conspiracy... need i say more? i own a copy of pop mechanics book on the subject and i trust the editors of pop mechanics and understand their explanations

part 3 had some interesting info, but was full of misleading information such as that jfk quote i was talking about

so overall i think it is interesting but i don't trust anything it says


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7787859 - 12/22/07 03:34 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

even if it's not 100% true its pretty fucking interesting


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: learningtofly]
    #7788769 - 12/22/07 02:18 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
even if it's not 100% true its pretty fucking interesting



Sounds like a review of a Michael Moore film.


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7791152 - 12/23/07 02:27 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

learningtofly said:
even if it's not 100% true its pretty fucking interesting



Sounds like a review of a Michael Moore film.




:lol:


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7794911 - 12/24/07 10:11 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I just saw Sicko last night. I heard so much negative "talk" about it. It was very sad to me. I can personally relate to it in my own way.

I just got my Xmas present from work, my jolly xmas lay-off.
And I am Legend was the movie they chose to pay for as our gift.

at the same time, I managed to get a design job on Mondays,(with full training environment with a professional, not a guy who is Senior Staff at 9 months.
A tutoring gig on the weekends,(for $20- $25/hr), and 4 days off.

so I'm good. :thumbup::headbang::heart::stoner: OoD

**EDIT** And happy Holidays to all!!


--------------------


http://dictionary.reference.com/



Edited by Oracle Of Delphi (12/24/07 10:12 AM)


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Oracle Of Delphi]
    #7796825 - 12/25/07 12:20 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Here's some stuff to look at:Who chose Dec. 25th?

And the bit about Constantine: Sol Invictus

Either the bible was written to appeal to pagans or the bible was based on pagan worship. That's strong astrological evidence...


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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: wyldeman007]
    #7797520 - 12/25/07 08:12 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

i always thought it was a little of both. and never meant to be read all together, as a single volume.


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7797559 - 12/25/07 09:12 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Silversoul, You are amazing. I just spent about an hour reading this entire thread and doing a little of my own Google work. I agree a lot with what you said about Part 1. However in my personal belief is religion was designed with the intent of explaining astrology and to help control society.


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7797907 - 12/25/07 12:30 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

On Horus

Battle with Set to avenge Father(6th Paragraph)

Imaculate Conseption of Isis (in the 9th paragraph)

my computer needs to be restarted


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7799565 - 12/26/07 12:38 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

So as far as the religion part, how accurate is it? I ask this because I am not exactly knowledgable on the subject so I can't make an arguement for or against, however I will say that if he's implying God/all that stuff doesnt exist then well that just sucksx100000000000


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7801518 - 12/26/07 07:24 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I'm back with more links and info..

More on Horus...
As far as being a teacher at age 12 and having 12 deciples, all I can say it that a lot of coincedental numerological findings of 12 are common in both the bible and hieroglyphs.

Horus age 12 baptized by Anup...(pages 613-614 in "Ancient Egypt - the light of the World..." by Gerald Massey.

Similarities that wheren't underlined in Zeitgeist:

The Mysteries
The miracles

The Sem, or mythical representations
The parables

The Ritual as the book of resurrection
The Book of Revelation

The sayings of Iu or Iu-em-hetep
The Sayings of Jesus

Huhi the father in heaven as the eternal, a title of Atum-Ra Ihuh,
the father in heaven as the eternal.
Ra, the holy spirit God
the Holy Ghost.

Ra the father of Iu the Su, or son of God, with the hawk or dove as the bird of the holy spirit
God, the Father of Jesus, with the dove as the bird of the Holy Spirit.

Iu or Horus, the manifesting son of God
Jesus the manifesting Son of God.

The trinity of Osiris the father, Horus (or Iu) the son, and Isis
The Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Iu-Su or Iusa, the coming son of Iusāas, who was great with Iusa or Iusu
Jesus.

The ever-coming Messu or Child as Egyptian
The Hebrew Messianic Child.

Horus (or Heru), the Lord by name,
as a child Child-Jesus as the Lord by name (Gospels of the Infancy).

Meh-Isis, the virgin mother of Iu, her Su or son
Mary the virgin mother of Jesus.

The first Horus as Child of the Virgin, the second as son of Ra, the father
Jesus the Virgin’s child, the Christ as son of the father

The first Horus as the founder, the second as fulfiller for the father
Jesus as the founder, and the Christ as fulfiller for the father.

The two mothers of Child-Horus, Isis and Nephthys, who were two sisters
The two mothers of Child-Jesus, who were sisters.

Meri or Nut, the mother-heaven
Mary as Regina Coeli.

The outcast great mother with her seven sons
Mary Magdalene, with her seven devils.

Isis taken by Horus in adultery with Sut
The woman taken in adultery.

Apt, the crib or manger, by name as the birthplace and mother in one
The manger as cradle of the Child-Christ.

Seb, the earth-father, as consort to the virgin Meh
Joseph, the father on earth, as putative husband to the Virgin Mary.

Seb, the foster-father to Child-Horus
Joseph, as foster-father to the Child-Jesus.

Seb, Isis and Horus, the Kamite holy trinity
Joseph, Mary and Jesus, a Christian holy trinity.

Seb, the builder of the house, the carpenter
Joseph, the carpenter.

Seb, the custodian of the mummied dead
Joseph of Arimathea, the keeper of the Corpus Christi.
Sut and Horus, the twin opponents
Satan and Jesus, the twin opponents.

Horus, the sower, and Sut, the destroyer, in the harvest-field J
esus, the sower of the good seed, and Satan, the sower of tares.

Sut and Horus contending in the desert
Satan and Jesus contending in the wilderness.

Sut and Horus contending on the Ben-Ben or Pyramidion
Satan and Jesus contending on the pinnacle.

Horus carried off by Sut to the summit of Mount Hetep
Jesus spirited away by Satan into an exceeding high mountain.

Sut and Horus contending on the mount
Satan and Jesus contending on the mount.

Sut undoing the good that Horus does
Satan sowing tares by night.

S’men, for Khemen, a title of Taht Simeon.

S’men, who held Child-Horus in his arms as the young solar god
Simeon, who took the Child-Jesus in his arms.

Anna or Annit (a title of Hathor), with Taht-S’men
Anna, the prophetess, with Simeon.

The Petar or Petra by name in Egyptian as Revealer to Horus
Peter, the revealer to the Christ.

The house of Annu Bethany.

The group in the house at Annu
The group in the house at Bethany.

Horus in Annu
Jesus in Bethany.

Asar or Osiris
Lazarus.

The two sisters Mertae
The two sisters Mary and Martha.

Osiris, whom Horus loved
Lazarus, whom Jesus loved.

Osiris perfumed for his burial
Jesus anointed, when the odour fills the house.

Osiris prays that he may be buried speedily
Jesus begs that his death may be effected quickly.

Osiris prepared for burial under the hair of Hathor-Meri
Jesus prepared for his burial beneath the hair of Mary

Osiris, who slept in the tomb at Annu
Lazarus, who slept in the tomb at Bethany.

Osiris raised from the tomb by Horus in Annu
Lazarus raised from the tomb at Bethany.

The mummy Osiris bidden to come forth by Horus
The mummy Lazarus bidden to come forth by Jesus

The Great One who does the work of washing
Jesus washing the feet of his disciples.

The star, as announcer for the Child-Horus
The Star in the East that indicated the birthplace of Jesus.

The seven Hathors (or cows) who minister to Horus
The seven women who minister to Jesus.

Anup, the Precursor of Horus
John, the forerunner of Jesus the Christ.

Anup, the Baptizer
John the Baptist.

Aan, the saluter of Horus
John, the saluter of the Christ.

Aan, a name of the divine scribe
John, the divine scribe.

Hermes, the scribe
Hermas, the scribe.

Mati, the registrar
Matthew, the clerk.

Taht, Shu, and black Sut
The three kings, or Magi.

Nut at the pool of the Persea, or sycamore-tree, as giver of divine drink
The woman at the well as giver of the water.

Horus born in Annu, the place of bread
Jesus born in Bethlehem, the house of bread.

The vesture put on Horus by the Goddess Tait
The swaddling clothes put on the infant Jesus.

Offerings made to the child by the worshippers in Annu
Offerings and worship of the Magi.

Child-Horus with the head of Ra
Child-Jesus with the solar glory round his head.

The Bull of Amenta in the place of birth
The ox in the birthplace of the Child.

The ass, Iu, in the birthplace
The ass in the birthplace (catacombs).

The lions of the horizon attending upon Horus
The lions attending the Child-Christ (pseudo- Matthew).

Child-Horus emerging from the Papyrus-reed
The Child-Jesus in the catacombs issuing from the Papyrus.

Horus, the ancient child
The little old Jesus in the catacombs.

Horus, the gracious child
Jesus, the child full of grace.

Horus, one of five brethren
Jesus, one of five brothers.

Horus, the brother of Sut the betrayer
Jesus, the brother of Judas the betrayer.

Amsta, the one brother of Horus in the human form
James, the human brother of Jesus.

The two sisters of Horus
The sisters of Jesus.

Horus the lad in the country and youth in town
Jesus as the child in the country and youth in town.

Horus baptized with water by Anup
Jesus baptized with water by John.

Horus in the tank of flame
Jesus the baptizer with fire.

Horus in his baptism becoming the beloved Son of God the Father
Jesus becoming the Son of God the Father in his baptism.

Horus the husbandman with the fan in his hand
Christ coming with the fan in his hand.

Horus the Good Shepherd, with the crook upon his shoulder
Jesus the Good Shepherd, with the lamb or kid upon his shoulder.

Horus with the four followers in the Mount
Jesus with the four disciples in the Mount.

Horus with the seven great spirits in the Mount
Jesus with the seven spirits in the Mount (Rev.).

Herrut the Apap-reptile, slayer of the younglings in the egg
Herod, the murderer of the innocents.

Isis commanded to take her child down into Egypt for safety
Mary warned to take her Child down into Egypt for safety.

Horus as the typical fish
Jesus as Ichthus the fish.

Horus as the fisher
Jesus as the fisher.

The four fishers with Horus as founders of the kingdom
The four fishers with Jesus as founders of the kingdom.

Sebek, the father of the fishers
Zebedee, the father of the fishers.

Two fisher-brethren, Kabhsenuf and Hapi
Two fisher-brethren, Simon and Andrew.

Two other fisher-brethren, Amsta and Tuamutef
Two other fisher-brethren, James and John.

The seven on board the bark with Horus
The seven fishers on board the bark with Jesus.

The wonderful net of the fishers
The miraculous draught of fishes in the net.

Horus as the lamb
Jesus as the lamb.

Horus as the lion
Jesus as a lion.

Horus (Iu) as the black child
Jesus as the little black bambino.

Horus as Ahi, the striker with the flabellum
Jesus wielding the scourge of cords as the striker.

Horus identified with the Tat or Cross
Jesus identified with the Cross.

The blind Horus, in two characters, as the God and Manes
The two blind men of the Gospels.

Horus of twelve years
Jesus of twelve years.

Horus made a man of thirty years in his baptism
Jesus, the man of thirty years in his baptism.

Horus (Iu), the son of a beetle
Jesus, the good Scarabaeus.

Horus (or Ra) as the great cat
Jesus as the cat.

Horus as the shrewmouse
The mouse of Jesus dedicated to “Our Lady.”

Horus, the healer in the mountain
Jesus, the healer in the mountain.

Horus as Iusa, the exorcizer of evil spirits as the Word
Jesus, the caster out of demons with a word.

Osiris as the vine-plant, Aarru
Jesus as the vine.

Horus, the bringer of the fish and the grapes in Egypt
Jesus as bringer of the fish and the grapes (catacombs).

Horus, the child standing on two crocodiles which adore him
The Christ-Child adored by dragons=crocodiles.

Horus, the child of a widow
The Child-Christ who lodges with a widow in Egypt.

Horus, the child of the widow in Sutenkhen
The Child-Christ with the widow in Sotenin (pseudo-Matthew).

The golden Horus
The corn-complexioned Jesus.

Horus full of wine
Jesus the wine-bibber.

Horus, who gives the water of life
Jesus as giver of the water of life.

Horus in the lentils and the grain
Jesus the bread of life.

Horus as Unbu in the bush of thorn
Jesus in the crown of thorn.

Horus the just and true
Jesus the faithful and true.

Horus-Mat-Kheru, the Word made truth at the second coming
Jesus the spirit of truth at the Second Advent.

The human Horus glorified in becoming a (Khu) spirit
The spirit not given until Jesus is glorified.

The world made through Horus
The world made through Jesus.

Horus the bridegroom with the bride in Sothis
Jesus the bridegroom with the bride.

Horus of both sexes
Jesus as the bearded Sophia; Charis, the female Christ.

Horus who exalteth his father in every sacred place
Jesus who exalteth his father in every place.

Horus as Remi the weeper
Jesus as the weeper.

Dumb Horus, or the silent Sekari
Jesus silent before his accusers.

Horus behaving badly to Isis
Jesus speaking brutally to his mother.

Horus the gladsome
Jesus the jocund.

Horus as prince of the divine powers
Jesus the prince.

Horus the uplifted serpent
Jesus uplifted as the serpent.

Horus as the Bennu
Jesus as the phoenix.

Horus who giveth light by means of his own body
Jesus the light of the world.

Horus the hider of himself as Har-Sheta
Jesus the concealer of himself.

.....


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins


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Offlinewyldeman007
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: wyldeman007]
    #7801522 - 12/26/07 07:25 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

...Continued...

Horus the word-made-flesh
Jesus the word-made-flesh.

Horus the word-made-truth
Jesus the doer of the word.

Horus in the bosom of Ra
Jesus in the bosom of the Father.

Horus the Krst
Jesus the Christ.

Horus the avenger
Jesus who brings the sword.

Iu-em-hetep who comes with peace
Jesus the bringer of peace.

Horus called the illegitimate child
Jesus called the Mamzer.

Horus the afflicted one
Jesus the afflicted one.

Horus the unique one
Jesus the unique one.

Horus the lord of resurrections from the house of death
Jesus the resurrection and the life.

Horus as the type of life eternal
Jesus the type of eternal life.

Iu (em-hetep) the child-teacher in the temple
The Child-Jesus as teacher in the Temple.

Child-Horus as sower of the seed
Child-Jesus as sower of the seed.

Har-Khuti, lord of the harvest
Jesus, lord of the harvest.

Horus the founder
Jesus the founder.

Horus the fulfiller
Jesus the fulfiller.

Horus as master of the words of power
Jesus whose word was with power.

Horus Ma-kheru
Jesus, “the witness unto the truth.”

Horus as the lily
Jesus typified by the lily.

Horus the link
Jesus the bond of union.

Horus who came to fulfil the law
Jesus who comes to fulfil the law.

Horus as bearer of the Ankh-symbol of life and the Un-sceptre of resurrection
Jesus as the resurrection and the life personified.

Horus (or Khunsu) the chaser of boastfulness
Jesus the humbler of the proud.

Horus of the Second Advent
The coming Christ.

Horus the hidden force
Jesus the concealed.

Horus as Kam-Ura, the overflower, and extender of the water illimitably
Jesus, giver of the water of life without limit.

Horus, who came by the water, the blood and the spirit
Jesus, who came by the water, the blood and the spirit.

Horus the opener as Unen
Jesus the opener with the keys.

Horus of the two horizons
Jesus of the two lands.

Horus as teacher of the living generation
Jesus as teacher on the earth.

Horus as teacher of the spirits in Amenta
Jesus as preacher to the spirits in prison.

Horus as teacher on the Atit-bark, with the seven glorious ones on board
Jesus the teacher on the boat, also with the seven fishers on board.

Horus uttering the words of Ra in the solar bark
Jesus uttering the parables on board the boat.

Horus walking the water
Jesus walking the water.

The blind mummy made to see by Horus
The blind man given sight by Jesus.

Horus and the Hamemmet or younglings of Shu
Jesus and the little ones.

The children of Horus
The children of Jesus.

Horus the raiser of the dead
Jesus the raiser of the dead.

Horus the raiser up of Asar
Jesus the raiser up of Lazarus.

Horus, who imparts the power of the resurrection to his children
Jesus who confers the same power on his followers.

Horus entering the mount at sunset to hold converse with his father
Jesus entering the mount at sunset to hold converse with his father.

Horus one with the father
Jesus one with his father.

Horus transfigured on the mount
Jesus transfigured on the mount.

Amsu-Horus in his resurrection as a Sahu- mummy
Jesus rising again corporeally or incorporated.

The blood of Isis The issue of blood suffered by the woman.
The field manured with blood in Tattu Aceldama.

The mummy-bandage that was woven without seam
The vesture of the Christ without a seam.

Seven souls of Ra the Holy Spirit
Seven gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Seven hawks of Ra the Holy Spirit
Seven doves of the Holy Spirit.

Seven loaves of Horus for feeding the multitude reposing in the green fields of Annu
Seven loaves of Jesus for feeding the multitude reclining on the grass.

Twelve followers of Har-Khuti
Twelve followers of Jesus, as the twelve disciples.
Horus with the twelve in the field of divine harvest
Jesus with the twelve in the harvest-field.

The twelve who reap for Horus
The twelve who reap for Jesus.

Horus as the intercessor
Jesus as the paraclete.

Horus as the great judge
Jesus as the great judge.

The judgment of the righteous, who are the sheep of Horus, the good shepherd
Judgment of the righteous, who are the sheep of Jesus the Good Shepherd.

The judgment of the guilty, who are the goats of Sut
Judgment of the wicked, who are the goats of Satan.

Horus parting off the evil dead
Jesus parting off the accursed.

The condemned spirits entering the swine
The evil spirits entering the swine.

The glorious ones that wait on Horus
The angels that minister unto Jesus.

Horus ascending to heaven from Bakhu, the Mount of the olive tree
Jesus ascending to heaven from Mount Olivet.

The revelation of Horus, given by Ra, his father, to make known the mysteries of divine things to his followers
The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave him to show unto his servants.

The revelation written down by Aan (Tehuti), the scribe of divine words
The Revelation written by John the divine.

The saluter Aani, who bears witness to the word of Ra and to the testimony of Horus
John, who bears witness to the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The secret of the Mysteries revealed by Taht-Aan
The secret of the Mysteries made known by John.

The books in Annu
The book of doom and the book of life in Patmos.

The books and their bringer
The book and its opener.

Seven dungeon-seals
The book with seven seals.

The great mother Apt, the pregnant water-cow
The woman sitting on the waters.

The crocodile as great mother
The dragon as great mother.

The great mother as Hathor, the abode
The woman that was the great city personalized.

The great or enceinte mother in her lunar character
The woman arrayed with the sun about to bring forth the child

Isis, who brought forth Horus in the marshes
The woman who brought forth in the wilderness.

Isis pursued by the great crocodile
The woman persecuted by the dragon.

Isis, hawk-winged
The woman with eagle’s wings.

The bride as Hathor-Isis, with the calf or lamb upon the mount of glory
The bride as the lamb’s wife upon the mount.

Atum-Huhi, the closer and the opener of Amenta
Ihuh, who carries the keys of death and Hades as closer and opener.

Atum-Ra, the holy spirit
The spirit.

Hathor-Iusāas the bride, with Horus the lamb (or earlier calf) upon the mount
The bride with the lamb upon the mount.

Anup and Aan, the two witnesses for Horus
The two Johns as witnesses for Jesus.

The seven Khuti or glorious ones
The seven spirits of God.

Horus, with the seven Khabsu stars, or gods of the lamp
Jesus in the midst of the seven golden lamp- stands.

Sebek-Horus the lamb on the mount
Jesus the lamb on the mount.

Horus the morning star
Jesus the morning star.
Horus, who gives the morning star to his followers
Jesus, who gives the morning star to his followers.

The Har-Seshu, or servants of Horus
The servants of Jesus Christ.

The seven spirits of fire around the throne of Ra
The seven spirits of fire before the throne.

The fathers, or the ancient ones
The four-and-twenty elders.

The four corner-keepers
The four living creatures at the four corners.

The solar god of golden form
The form with feet like unto burnished brass, and countenance as of the sun.

Iu the son of man (or Atum)
Jesus the son of man.

Horus as the first-born from the dead
Jesus the Christ as first-born of those that slept.

Horus in the house of a thousand years
The Millennial reign of Jesus.

Sebek the solar dragon
The scarlet-coloured beast with seven heads.

Seven souls or powers of Ra
Seven heads of the solar dragon.

The eighth to the seven
The eighth to the seven.

Ten Tata-gods or powers
The ten horns or kings.

The war in heaven
The war in heaven.

Har-Tema as the avenger, the red god who orders the block of execution
The word of God, faithful and true, with raiment dipped in blood.

Har-Makhu
Michael the Archangel.
Sut the accuser
Satan the accuser.

Sut and Horus
Christ and the Anti-Christ.

The celestial Heptanomis
The seven mountains of earth or islands in the sea.

The seven children of the old earth-mother
The seven kings of the earth.

Horus at the head of the seven
Jesus at the head of the seven.

The last judgment
The last judgment.

The mount of glory
The throne set in heaven on the mount.

The mount as judgment-seat
The mount as throne of the Great Judge.

The lion-faced throne of steel
The great white throne.

The great judge seated on his throne
The Great Judge on the judgment-seat.

The god in lion form
The god who is the lion of the Tribe of Judah.

The god in the solar disc
The god with the sun-like countenance.

The god whose dazzling mouth sends forth breezes of flame
The god from whose mouth proceeded the two-edged sword.

Osiris-Tat, the sufferer in the Lower Egypt of Amenta
The Lord who was crucified in Egypt.

The Apap-reptile, the serpent of evil
Abaddon, Apollyon, or Satan, that old serpent.

Apap, the power of evil in the Abyss
Abaddon or Apollyon, the angel of the Abyss.

The binding of Apap in chains and casting the beast into the Abyss
The binding of the dragon, that old serpent, and casting him into the Pit.

Apap and Sut bound in chains and cast into the Abyss
The Devil and Satan bound in a great chain and cast into the Pit.

The Ankh-key of life and the Un-symbol of the resurrection
The keys of death and Hades in the hands of the opener.

The first resurrection and the second death in Amenta
The first resurrection and the second death.

The Lake of Putrata where the lost souls fall headlong into everlasting night
The lake of the second death.

The beatified in their white garments of glory
The beatified spirits arrayed in white.

The name of Ra on the head of the deceased
The name of the Father written on the forehead.

The little column of white stone given as a talisman to the initiates
The white stone given to the initiated.

The mount of the double earth in Hetep
The mountain great and high.

The eternal city at the summit
The Holy City.

The water of life as lake or river
The river of the water of life.

The two divine sycamores over the water of life
The tree of life on either side of the water of life.

The water of life proceeding from the throne of Osiris.
The water of life proceeding from the throne of God.

The great lake in Hetep upon which the gods and glorified alight
The glassy sea on which the victors stand triumphant.

The great white lake of Sa
The sea of crystal.

The calf (later lamb) of Horus standing on the mount with Hathor bearing the bride
The lamb standing on Mount Zion with the bride.

The lunar goddess Hathor bearing the solar orb
The woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon at her feet.

The glorified in Hetep stoled and girdled and crowned
The angels girt about the breasts with golden girdles.

The emerald dawn around the mount or throne of Ra
The rainbow like an emerald round the throne.

The Ba enclosure of Aarru, in twelve measures
The walled enclosure of the New Jerusalem, in twelve measures.

Heaven according to the measure of a man
Heaven according to the measure of a man.

The paradise of the pole-star
The Holy City lighted by one luminary that is neither the sun nor the moon=the pole-star.

The ark of Osiris-Ra
The Ark of the New Covenant in heaven.

----------------------------------------------------------------

On to other Dieties...

The Virgin birth of Krishna is alittle hairy but, It was said that as a fetus he was tranferred magically to Devaki's womb as her 8th child and Vasudeva infact wasn't Krishna's biological father...

The Star known as 'Rohini' is refered to as a deer, under the direct supervision of Brahma a member of the hindu Trinity. This source of hindu myths then goes on to say that Brahma pierces Rohini with an arrow. (Brahma being the hunter in the east: Orion.)

Krishna was the 8th Avatar of Vishnu and while he wasn't 'resurrected' from death he for sure ascended... in my book thats close enough for me..

------------------------------------------------

The "M" shape of virgo was ignorant.. and it was probaly added for effect for a number of people. Or as an example of religions speculative nature?? No argument there though.

Bethelhem really does mean"house of bread" and isn't it resonable to believe that the city was founded and named, based on that? As for the "prophecy" of the Messiah being born there, Jews don't believe that it was Jesus Christ. Since the Old Testement is based on Judeism, isn't that a red light?

There's actually no archeological evidence of Egyptions owning slaves, they were actually Egyption townsfolk who received benefits from reduced taxes in exchange for manual labor. In all the hieroglyphs to date there are no connections of Jews being slaves of Egyptions.

Draw your own conclusions as I have, religion is speculative and NOT reliable. I base my findings on both Primary and Secondary sources containing facts.

Religion, the Bible, the Koran, the Torah etc.. aren't archeological accounts, they aren't secondary sources even, from a scientific standpoint they are heresay evidence and have no merit.


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: wyldeman007]
    #7801579 - 12/26/07 07:57 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I don't have the time or patience to address all of these, but the fact that certain titles are shared does not make someone's life fictional. That whole list is pretty much meaningless.

As for some of the other points:

Quote:

Krishna was the 8th Avatar of Vishnu and while he wasn't 'resurrected' from death he for sure ascended... in my book thats close enough for me..



Close enough? Ascension is such a common theme throughout the world's religions that two compare two religious figures based on this similarity is essentially meaningless.

Quote:

Bethelhem really does mean"house of bread" and isn't it resonable to believe that the city was founded and named, based on that? As for the "prophecy" of the Messiah being born there, Jews don't believe that it was Jesus Christ. Since the Old Testement is based on Judeism, isn't that a red light?



I'm not disputing the meaning of the name "Bethlehem." I'm just saying that because it's a real place in Israel, it's more likely that the Gospel writers were referring to that city, and not some constellation. As for whether or not the Jews believed Jesus to be the messiah, the earliest Christians were Jews. Most Jews, however, expected the messiah to be some military figure who would overthrow their oppressors. For this reason, many more Jews later accepted Simon Bar Kokhba as their messiah, before his revolt was crushed by the Romans.

Quote:

There's actually no archeological evidence of Egyptions owning slaves, they were actually Egyption townsfolk who received benefits from reduced taxes in exchange for manual labor. In all the hieroglyphs to date there are no connections of Jews being slaves of Egyptions.



The most recent theory I've heard is that they were similar to draftees: paid, but still forced to work.

Quote:

Religion, the Bible, the Koran, the Torah etc.. aren't archeological accounts, they aren't secondary sources even, from a scientific standpoint they are heresay evidence and have no merit.



They are not reliable in and of themselves, but many archaeologists have found archaeological sites using the Bible as a guide, so it's a bit arrogant to say it has "no merit."


--------------------


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Offlinewyldeman007
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7801609 - 12/26/07 08:11 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Fair enough.. we've come to a conclusion and sorry if I sound arrogant but my views lie in the Spiritual not religous. Coming from different backgrounds I can see that you are more religous than me. I do respect you Silversoul... as you listen, some others on this site are immature and on top of that close minded. Are you satisfied with this thread? I sure am. I'll be returing to college soon, back from a 4 year hiatus. I used this as 'fuel for thought'.


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: wyldeman007]
    #7801637 - 12/26/07 08:24 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

It's been a wonderful debate. However, although I do tend to have a more sympathetic view of religion than many people on here, don't think that my arguments are based on my personal religiosity(I tend to identify myself more in the "spiritual" category). My arguments are based on a distaste for oversimplification. I simply think religion is too complex to be pegged down as mere "astrotheology," as the makers of Zeitgeist would have you believe. It's been great discussing this with you.


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7802547 - 12/27/07 01:55 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

As I am quite pagan oriented, I really enjoy the explanations of zeitgeist and also see the similarities to the ancient views of the sun and the many religions on earth. Even if they are perhaps not 100% correctly represented in the video, they clearly mark a (I tend to say 'THE') tendency and that is worth for more exploration and no short rebuttal.
All in all it resonates well within me and wyldeman007 did an awesome good job, too.
It's good to push everything into question, even the question itself :wink:
So my respect goes to all of you and the movie itself :wink:

What follows the age of information ? The age of questions ! :grin:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7802596 - 12/27/07 02:22 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not disparaging paganism either. I definitely think that Christianity and Judaism were influenced by the other religions around them just as any religion is influenced by other religions. Is there pagan influence in Christianity, including the way we perceive Christ? You bet. Does that mean Jesus was fictional? Not at all.


--------------------


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7806653 - 12/28/07 08:18 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Ah thank you. Now I see where you set the borderline. Did this movie really assume that Jesus Christ is absolute fictional ?
Maybe I missed that point :smile:
For me it pointed out, that there ever were many people in every part of history who were supposed to fulfill the attributes of what a g*dly representation demands. Which makes them avatar or Messiahs or whatever this may be called through (their contextual) religion. There, fiction and truth mix.
All belongs to context, as the main focus belongs to g*d, not merely g*d's' representation(s) :laugh:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: wyldeman007]
    #7809620 - 12/29/07 04:24 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Nice link to Massey's book, it would have been nice if he gave more references to the actual Egyptian texts.


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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: ZShroom]
    #7810294 - 12/29/07 01:30 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I did encounter an interesting phenomenon the other day. I was searching for Zeitgeist rebuttals, and found several refuting the first part like I did, a couple refuting the second part about 9/11, and nothing refuting the third part about the federal reserve. My guess is that's because so few people understand banking, but anyway, I thought it was interesting.


--------------------


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7810578 - 12/29/07 03:34 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I thought he third part was the most solid, except for that campy Love vs. Fear fluff at the end.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: wyldeman007]
    #7851022 - 01/09/08 12:32 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

wyldeman007 said:
Here's some stuff to look at:Who chose Dec. 25th?
And the bit about Constantine: Sol Invictus
Either the bible was written to appeal to pagans or the bible was based on pagan worship. That's strong astrological evidence...



Or, you haven't got some data right.

Regardless of whoever chose Dec 25th, they did so long after all the scriptures in the bible had been written, and so the sentence "Either the bible was written to appeal to pagans or the bible was based on pagan worship" is unfounded and meaningless.

Constantine would have had nothing to do with writing the bible, having lived a few centuries after the latest included scriptures were written. Constantine also converted to Christianity in his life, but had originally worshipped the Roman sun-god (named Sol). When he decreed dies Solis as a day of rest he did so to a Roman population who did not share his Christian religion. His motive for announcing a day of rest probably comes from his conversion and the Christian/Judaistic day of rest, while the name of it appeals to the Roman population. Christianity had only just been legalized in 313, and Chrstians made up only a quarter of the Roman empire at this time. Obviously there wouldn't be a national day named against the satisfaction of 3/4 of the population.

It should be remembered Constantine wasn't trying to mold astrology into Christianity, but was trying to move Christianity into a Roman society.

"If it is called 'day of the sun' by the pagans, we willingly accept this name, for on this day the Light of the world arose, on this day the Sun of Justice shone forth." - Saint Jerome


Edited by Disco Cat (01/09/08 12:55 AM)


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: wyldeman007]
    #7851068 - 01/09/08 12:40 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

wyldeman007 said:
I'm back with more links and info..

More on Horus...
As far as being a teacher at age 12 and having 12 deciples, all I can say it that a lot of coincedental numerological findings of 12 are common in both the bible and hieroglyphs.

Horus age 12 baptized by Anup...(pages 613-614 in "Ancient Egypt - the light of the World..." by Gerald Massey.

Similarities that wheren't underlined in Zeitgeist:

.....





Crystalinks is a new-age paranormal, extraterrestrial, astrological center of mumbo-jumbo - not where you want to be researching history or looking for serious answers to anything. A good indicator of something being nonsense is that you find it on Crystalinks.
Gerald Massey, who became an ancient egypt hobbyist in his 40's, was a new-ager, and a druid - not an egyptologist. He invented ideas using a self-taught ability to read hieroglyphs. His book and work is not recognized by egpytologists. I have read that his book was submitted and consequently rejected from over a dozen egyptologists.

I advise verifying long lists of data before posting them. Whether it's one detail or a thousand details, if they're false they're useless when it comes to making a point. This whole list appears ridiculously fallacious, as these few random selections ought to demonstrate:

Quote:

Osiris, whom Horus loved
Lazarus, whom Jesus loved.



Osiris is Horus' dad, and that he loved him is uneventful. Lazarus is not Jesus' dad, and Jesus loved a lot of people, not most of all Lazarus. John is most often said to be "the one Jesus loved," but that doesn't provide any significance for this point.
Quote:

Meh-Isis, the virgin mother of Iu, her Su or son
Mary the virgin mother of Jesus.



Isis isn't a virgin, not in any egyptian record anywhere.
Meh also isn't a part of her name.
Quote:

Seb, the earth-father, as consort to the virgin Meh
Joseph, the father on earth, as putative husband to the Virgin Mary.



"Earth-father" is a twisting of words to make a parallel. Seb is the spirit of the Earth, not "Earth-father." Zero comparison.
Now who is the virgin Meh?
Quote:

Meri or Nut, the mother-heaven
Mary as Regina Coeli.



"Mother-heaven" is another twisting of words. Nut is the sky goddess, not "mother-heaven." Her name literally means "Night."
Further, there is no character named Meri in egyptian mythology, Achaya invented this idea, and when called to supply backing for it failed to do so. It's just something she pulled out of thin air.
Meri is an egyptian word which denotes that something or someone is loved. For example, "Mut-Nefertari-Meri" means "Nefertari, beloved of Mut." Ta-Meri is the ancient name of Egypt, which means "beloved land." "Anen Meri" means "to bring back love."
Egyptian rulers had Meri on the end of their name to suggest that they were beloved by their people.
Meri is the name of no-one, not Isis, and not Nut.

Quote:

Isis taken by Horus in adultery with Sut
The woman taken in adultery.



What does this mean? Mary was not taken in adultery by anyone, and there are many cases of adultery throughout the bible. Really, what's the comparison?



And that's how all these comparisons are, one after another, they're all empty gibberish - not even halfway sensible. Their sensationalistic ploys meant to prey on those who don't know better. Acharya S is a sensationalistic new-ager, not an egyptologist, and she is better left ignored than listened to.


Edited by Disco Cat (01/09/08 01:00 AM)


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Offlinewyldeman007
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Re: Zeitgeist....wanna try and poke holes? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7851118 - 01/09/08 12:54 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

In posting a ridiculous amount of data, I was attempting to bring a balance to the situation. If you're an expert on the subject than I apologize, I never found the religious aspect of Zeitgeist very prospective in argument anyway. If you look back further you'll see that I try to argue it using no research at all...


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins


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