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ts727 said:
I bash this movie constantly and mind is infinitely wide. Ive said id once and i'll say it again. this movie is pretentious.

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Silversoul said:
Ok, my main beef with the movie is Part I, and it insinuation that Jesus was a mythological construct based on Horus and astrology. Not that I discount the theory entirely, but they make a lot of the same baseless claims that I've seen so many others make.

"Horus" does not mean "sun" or "light." It means "high" or "distant," which reflects his nature as the sky(hence his representation as a hawk). Not merely a sun god, it was said that the sun was his right eye and the moon was his left. Thus, they misrepresent his conflict with Set. I can find no reference to him being born on December 25. As for being born of a virgin, well, kind of. Set had killed Osiris, but Isis(whose name was not Merri) used his phallus to impregnate herself. So it's more a matter of him being a product of necrophilia than of a virgin birth. I can find no reference to him being a teacher at age 12, being baptized, or having 12 disciples. I can find no reference to him being crucified or resurrected(his father Osiris was resurrected, but not crucified). The only real confirmed connections I can find between Jesus and Horus are that he was the "Son of God"(of course, as with any polytheistic system, several gods had children), and his mother Isis was called "Queen of Heaven."

On Krishna, I can find no reference to a star in the East or Devaki being a virgin. Nor is there any reference to him being resurrected.

Dionysus and Mithras are the two best cases they have, and even there I can't confirm all the claims made.

Another issue I have is where they talk about the "M" shape of the sign Virgo, thus explaining the names of other prophet's mothers starting with "M," including Maya, the mother of the Buddha. Does he realize that in India they used Vedic astrology rather than Western astrology? Does he further realize that they used the Sanskrit alphabet, rather than the English one? The letter "M" is irrelevant here.

Then he talks about "Bethlehem" referring to Virgo. DOES HE REALIZE THAT BETHLEHEM IS AN ACTUAL PLACE?! How about the fact that Jewish prophecy predicted that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem?

The point about December 25th is well-made. Of course, December 25th is not mentioned in the Bible, and it wasn't until about the 3rd or 4th century that Christians began to celebrate Christmas on that date, probably to fit in with the Romans celebrating Saturnalia, or Mithraism celebrating Mithras' birth. However, their point about the sun being over the Southern Cross is irrelevant, since the Southern Cross is not visible from the northern hemisphere.

Then they make the point about the timing of Easter celebrating the Spring Solstice, apparently oblivious to its connection to the Jewish holiday of Passover.

It also talks of Jesus' 12 disciples representing the 12 signs of the zodiac, without apparently considering that Jesus might have deliberately chosen 12 to correspond to the 12 tribes of Israel.

Also, insisting that the cross comes from the zodiac may have some merit, but he seems to ignore the fact that Romans did, in fact, crucify people quite readily. Also, the cross was not used in early Christian symbolism(it was originally seen as an embarrassment, until Christian theology focused more on his role as the "Lamb of God").

He says that the idea of "end of the world" is a misinterpreted astrological allegory. Yet almost every religion has some end times prophecy. Are we to believe that Christianity was meant to be unique by not having an end times prophecy?

Then he talks about Noah's ark being a plagiarism of the Epic of Gilgamesh. It is more likely that both stories were based on a real flood that occurred at one point, probably in what is now the Black Sea.

He then talks about parallels between Moses and Sargon of Akkad. Well, it turns out that there are a lot of missing pieces in the "Sargon legend," many of which it appears he is trying to fill in out of nowhere. All the story of Sargon actually says is that he was born of one father and raised by a king. The missing pieces in between are lost to history.

Then he talks about Moses as lawgiver being a plagiarism because so many other cultures have a similar figure. Gee, who would've thought that laws would be a universal phenomenon among civilized cultures? It then further insults my intelligence by saying that the ten commandments are taken from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, as if stealing, murder, and adultery were not universal taboos.

As for Egypt being the basis for the Judeo-Christian tradition, what culture do you think Moses led his people out of? OF COURSE Egyptian culture would have affected them.

As for Josephus' reference to Jesus being a forgery(ironic, since this documentary cites so many unsupported facts), that is still a matter of debate(link).

It should also be noted that no references to the Buddha were made in his lifetime, nor do such records exist for Alexander the Great(though he left behind an empire as evidence of having been there). These people were both royalty, while Jesus was a mere peasant. I should hardly think it a surprise that no historical references were made to him during his lifetime.

Then they talk about the political establishment of Rome making Jesus into a historical figure for political control. Excuse me, but weren't the Romans feeding Christians to the lions?! Does the name Nero ring a bell for anyone?

Part 1 badly misinterprets the common use and association of archetypes across different cultures, and makes numerous bogus claims about history and mythology. It also overemphasizes the connection between Christianity and other religions while ignoring more obvious connections to the Jewish tradition in which it is rooted.

I think I've spent enough time and space addressing the overwhelming amount of bullshit in part 1, so I don't feel the need to address the subject matter of parts 2 and 3, which have been covered in numerous other threads. Quite honestly, I expected this film to have a little more redeeming value than it did, but while a few of the points it brings up have some legitimacy, they can all be interpreted in other ways, and only by mixing these claims with tons of misinformation can they convincingly make the case that they do.

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Silversoul said:
Ok, my main beef with the movie is Part I, and it insinuation that Jesus was a mythological construct based on Horus and astrology. Not that I discount the theory entirely, but they make a lot of the same baseless claims that I've seen so many others make.

"Horus" does not mean "sun" or "light." It means "high" or "distant," which reflects his nature as the sky(hence his representation as a hawk). Not merely a sun god, it was said that the sun was his right eye and the moon was his left. Thus, they misrepresent his conflict with Set. I can find no reference to him being born on December 25. As for being born of a virgin, well, kind of. Set had killed Osiris, but Isis(whose name was not Merri) used his phallus to impregnate herself. So it's more a matter of him being a product of necrophilia than of a virgin birth. I can find no reference to him being a teacher at age 12, being baptized, or having 12 disciples. I can find no reference to him being crucified or resurrected(his father Osiris was resurrected, but not crucified). The only real confirmed connections I can find between Jesus and Horus are that he was the "Son of God"(of course, as with any polytheistic system, several gods had children), and his mother Isis was called "Queen of Heaven."

On Krishna, I can find no reference to a star in the East or Devaki being a virgin. Nor is there any reference to him being resurrected.

Dionysus and Mithras are the two best cases they have, and even there I can't confirm all the claims made.

Another issue I have is where they talk about the "M" shape of the sign Virgo, thus explaining the names of other prophet's mothers starting with "M," including Maya, the mother of the Buddha. Does he realize that in India they used Vedic astrology rather than Western astrology? Does he further realize that they used the Sanskrit alphabet, rather than the English one? The letter "M" is irrelevant here.

Then he talks about "Bethlehem" referring to Virgo. DOES HE REALIZE THAT BETHLEHEM IS AN ACTUAL PLACE?! How about the fact that Jewish prophecy predicted that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem?

The point about December 25th is well-made. Of course, December 25th is not mentioned in the Bible, and it wasn't until about the 3rd or 4th century that Christians began to celebrate Christmas on that date, probably to fit in with the Romans celebrating Saturnalia, or Mithraism celebrating Mithras' birth. However, their point about the sun being over the Southern Cross is irrelevant, since the Southern Cross is not visible from the northern hemisphere.

Then they make the point about the timing of Easter celebrating the Spring Solstice, apparently oblivious to its connection to the Jewish holiday of Passover.

It also talks of Jesus' 12 disciples representing the 12 signs of the zodiac, without apparently considering that Jesus might have deliberately chosen 12 to correspond to the 12 tribes of Israel.

Also, insisting that the cross comes from the zodiac may have some merit, but he seems to ignore the fact that Romans did, in fact, crucify people quite readily. Also, the cross was not used in early Christian symbolism(it was originally seen as an embarrassment, until Christian theology focused more on his role as the "Lamb of God").

He says that the idea of "end of the world" is a misinterpreted astrological allegory. Yet almost every religion has some end times prophecy. Are we to believe that Christianity was meant to be unique by not having an end times prophecy?

Then he talks about Noah's ark being a plagiarism of the Epic of Gilgamesh. It is more likely that both stories were based on a real flood that occurred at one point, probably in what is now the Black Sea.

He then talks about parallels between Moses and Sargon of Akkad. Well, it turns out that there are a lot of missing pieces in the "Sargon legend," many of which it appears he is trying to fill in out of nowhere. All the story of Sargon actually says is that he was born of one father and raised by a king. The missing pieces in between are lost to history.

Then he talks about Moses as lawgiver being a plagiarism because so many other cultures have a similar figure. Gee, who would've thought that laws would be a universal phenomenon among civilized cultures? It then further insults my intelligence by saying that the ten commandments are taken from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, as if stealing, murder, and adultery were not universal taboos.

As for Egypt being the basis for the Judeo-Christian tradition, what culture do you think Moses led his people out of? OF COURSE Egyptian culture would have affected them.

As for Josephus' reference to Jesus being a forgery(ironic, since this documentary cites so many unsupported facts), that is still a matter of debate(link).

It should also be noted that no references to the Buddha were made in his lifetime, nor do such records exist for Alexander the Great(though he left behind an empire as evidence of having been there). These people were both royalty, while Jesus was a mere peasant. I should hardly think it a surprise that no historical references were made to him during his lifetime.

Then they talk about the political establishment of Rome making Jesus into a historical figure for political control. Excuse me, but weren't the Romans feeding Christians to the lions?! Does the name Nero ring a bell for anyone?

Part 1 badly misinterprets the common use and association of archetypes across different cultures, and makes numerous bogus claims about history and mythology. It also overemphasizes the connection between Christianity and other religions while ignoring more obvious connections to the Jewish tradition in which it is rooted.

I think I've spent enough time and space addressing the overwhelming amount of bullshit in part 1, so I don't feel the need to address the subject matter of parts 2 and 3, which have been covered in numerous other threads. Quite honestly, I expected this film to have a little more redeeming value than it did, but while a few of the points it brings up have some legitimacy, they can all be interpreted in other ways, and only by mixing these claims with tons of misinformation can they convincingly make the case that they do.

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ts727 said:

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Silversoul said:
Ok, my main beef with the movie is Part I, and it insinuation that Jesus was a mythological construct based on Horus and astrology.  Not that I discount the theory entirely, but they make a lot of the same baseless claims that I've seen so many others make.

"Horus" does not mean "sun" or "light."  It means "high" or "distant," which reflects his nature as the sky(hence his representation as a hawk).  Not merely a sun god, it was said that the sun was his right eye and the moon was his left.  Thus, they misrepresent his conflict with Set.  I can find no reference to him being born on December 25.  As for being born of a virgin, well, kind of.  Set had killed Osiris, but Isis(whose name was not Merri) used his phallus to impregnate herself.  So it's more a matter of him being a product of necrophilia than of a virgin birth.  I can find no reference to him being a teacher at age 12, being baptized, or having 12 disciples.  I can find no reference to him being crucified or resurrected(his father Osiris was resurrected, but not crucified).  The only real confirmed connections I can find between Jesus and Horus are that he was the "Son of God"(of course, as with any polytheistic system, several gods had children), and his mother Isis was called "Queen of Heaven."

On Krishna, I can find no reference to a star in the East or Devaki being a virgin.  Nor is there any reference to him being resurrected.

Dionysus and Mithras are the two best cases they have, and even there I can't confirm all the claims made.

Another issue I have is where they talk about the "M" shape of the sign Virgo, thus explaining the names of other prophet's mothers starting with "M," including Maya, the mother of the Buddha.  Does he realize that in India they used Vedic astrology rather than Western astrology?  Does he further realize that they used the Sanskrit alphabet, rather than the English one?  The letter "M" is irrelevant here. 

Then he talks about "Bethlehem" referring to Virgo.  DOES HE REALIZE THAT BETHLEHEM IS AN ACTUAL PLACE?!  How about the fact that Jewish prophecy predicted that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem?

The point about December 25th is well-made.  Of course, December 25th is not mentioned in the Bible, and it wasn't until about the 3rd or 4th century that Christians began to celebrate Christmas on that date, probably to fit in with the Romans celebrating Saturnalia, or Mithraism celebrating Mithras' birth.  However, their point about the sun being over the Southern Cross is irrelevant, since the Southern Cross is not visible from the northern hemisphere.

Then they make the point about the timing of Easter celebrating the Spring Solstice, apparently oblivious to its connection to the Jewish holiday of Passover.

It also talks of Jesus' 12 disciples representing the 12 signs of the zodiac, without apparently considering that Jesus might have deliberately chosen 12 to correspond to the 12 tribes of Israel.

Also, insisting that the cross comes from the zodiac may have some merit, but he seems to ignore the fact that Romans did, in fact, crucify people quite readily.  Also, the cross was not used in early Christian symbolism(it was originally seen as an embarrassment, until Christian theology focused more on his role as the "Lamb of God").

He says that the idea of "end of the world" is a misinterpreted astrological allegory.  Yet almost every religion has some end times prophecy.  Are we to believe that Christianity was meant to be unique by not having an end times prophecy?

Then he talks about Noah's ark being a plagiarism of the Epic of Gilgamesh.  It is more likely that both stories were based on a real flood that occurred at one point, probably in what is now the Black Sea.

He then talks about parallels between Moses and Sargon of Akkad.  Well, it turns out that there are a lot of missing pieces in the "Sargon legend," many of which it appears he is trying to fill in out of nowhere.  All the story of Sargon actually says is that he was born of one father and raised by a king.  The missing pieces in between are lost to history.

Then he talks about Moses as lawgiver being a plagiarism because so many other cultures have a similar figure.  Gee, who would've thought that laws would be a universal phenomenon among civilized cultures?  It then further insults my intelligence by saying that the ten commandments are taken from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, as if stealing, murder, and adultery were not universal taboos.

As for Egypt being the basis for the Judeo-Christian tradition, what culture do you think Moses led his people out of?  OF COURSE Egyptian culture would have affected them.

As for Josephus' reference to Jesus being a forgery(ironic, since this documentary cites so many unsupported facts), that is still a matter of debate(link).

It should also be noted that no references to the Buddha were made in his lifetime, nor do such records exist for Alexander the Great(though he left behind an empire as evidence of having been there).  These people were both royalty, while Jesus was a mere peasant.  I should hardly think it a surprise that no historical references were made to him during his lifetime.

Then they talk about the political establishment of Rome making Jesus into a historical figure for political control.  Excuse me, but weren't the Romans feeding Christians to the lions?!  Does the name Nero ring a bell for anyone?

Part 1 badly misinterprets the common use and association of archetypes across different cultures, and makes numerous bogus claims about history and mythology.  It also overemphasizes the connection between Christianity and other religions while ignoring more obvious connections to the Jewish tradition in which it is rooted.

I think I've spent enough time and space addressing the overwhelming amount of bullshit in part 1, so I don't feel the need to address the subject matter of parts 2 and 3, which have been covered in numerous other threads.  Quite honestly, I expected this film to have a little more redeeming value than it did, but while a few of the points it brings up have some legitimacy, they can all be interpreted in other ways, and only by mixing these claims with tons of misinformation can they convincingly make the case that they do.

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Didnt read the whole thing but that's my problem with it too.

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Sounds like some holes big enough to drive a truck through.

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The point is that all religions (even Taoism and Buddhism) are integrally linked with, if not based upon, Astronomy.

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I suspect that Tutankhaten aka Tutankhamun was the orginal sacrificial Sun king and "Annointed One".

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Certain features of Taoist alchemy and talismanic symbolism have also penetrated the Tai Chi forms. As part of their contemplation of nature the Taoists observed the heavens and were keen students of astronomy and astrology. Movements of the Tai Chi Form such as:

* Step Up to Seven Stars
* Embrace the Moon
* Biggest Star in the Great Dipper
* Encase the Moon in Three Rings
* The Smallest Star in the Big Dipper
* Meteor Runs After Moon
* Heavenly Steed Soars Across the Sky

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Cosmology: Daoism has made a tremendous contribution to the development of ancient astronomy and has deepened man's understanding and mastery of the outside world. Daoism holds that the universe is created from emptiness. For example, The Book of the Supreme Venerable Sovereign's Opening of the Heavens 1 says that the evolutionary process of the universe is made up of many phases, such as "great origin", "chaotic origin", "supreme beginning", "supreme start", "supreme simplicity", "chaos", "nine palaces", and "original sovereign" (see p. 618, Vol. 34, The Daoist Canon 2). Although such a theory is still within the religious intellectual system, it initiates man's understanding of the universe and gestates the sprout of science of the universe. Daoists came to know gradually that the universe has gone through an evolutionary process of growing from small to large. Ge Hong adopts the view that "Pangu created the world" mentioned in Three-Five Calendar 3 by Xu Zheng of The Three Kingdoms, holding that "before the formation of heaven, earth, the sun and the moon, the universe was in the shape of an egg; chaotic, black and yellow," and that the heaven and earth were not created until Perfect Man Pangu roamed in the universe and created the sun and the moon (see Records of Immortals of the Original Beginning and the Highest Perfection 4, p. 23, vol. 3, in The Daoist Canon). Daoist Theories of the universe developed continuously afterwards. Daoism explains the structure of the universe with the theory of integral heaven, holding that heaven is a ball-shaped shell wrapping the earth, which floats in the ball of heaven in the shape of a board, while the sun, the moon, and stars are attached to the ball of heaven, and that the buoyant force of the "tie of the vital breath" enables heaven and earth not to fall. The famous Daoist Hao Datong of the Complete Perfection Tradition 5 was an expert at calendrics and arithmetic, while Zhao Youqin conducted large-scale research in astronomical physics. The latter studied solar and lunar eclipses and did optical experiments. Some of his experiments and discoveries recorded in his New Book on the Changing Astronomical Phenomena 6 were revolutionary in the history of world astronomy.

Astrology: Daoism holds that constellations in heaven are the abodes of spirits. Also due to the Daoist belief in the theory of correspondence between heaven and man, ancient Daoists devoted a great deal of energy to observing the stars and drawing star charts. The 28 constellations in heaven that signify energy nodes and orientations have caught people's attention ever since the emergence of Daoism. Daoism holds that worship of the Big Dipper could eliminate disasters and get rid of diseases, prolong the life span and achieve longevity. Therefore, in The Daoist Canon, there are a number of Daoist scriptures about prayer to the Big Dipper or concerning the Dipper constellation, and numerous scriptures are illustrated with the star chart of the Big Dipper. Many of the ancient Chinese astronomers and astrologists were Daoists or persons influenced by Daoism, such as Li Chunfeng, Yuan Tiangang, and so on.

Calendar: Based on the observation and research of the laws of heaven, earth, and the universe, Daoism establishes "calendar of 24 energy nodes" which bears important influence on subsequent Chinese calendars (For details, see p. 438, vol. 28, The Daoist Canon). In The Daoist Canon, there is also a Daoist calendar named "calendar of 28 constellations", a "solar calendar" which is different from that of the government. It prescribes that one year has 12 months and each month has 30 days, and divided a year in half, the first half starting with the Kui constellation and the second with the Jiao constellation. This calendar has major influence on the "calendar of 12 vital breaths" formulated by Shen Kuo.

Timers: The characteristics of Daoist cultivation methods determine that Daoists need exact timing when cultivating inner and outer alchemy. As a result, many Daoists delve into timing techniques so that they make much valuable contribution in this field. One of the early Daoist devotees' major suggestions accepted during the reign of Emperor Aidi of the Han dynasty is that the 100 degree-gradation, which is the gradation standard of the timing instrument "louke", is changed into 120 degree-graduation (see "Biography of Li Xun" in History of the Han). The Daoist Li Lan of the Northern Wei dynasty invented "chenglou" (steelyard timer). After being improved in the Song dynasty, it had been used by the government till the Northern Song dynasty. Tao Hongjing, a famous Daoist of the Southern Dynasties, once designed "natural louke". His reason was, "flowing water can be made into natural louke. Then the twelve hours circulate, and people do not have to wait and watch." (p. 735, vol. 22, The Daoist Canon.) Daoists of the Complete Perfection Tradition even invented some handy timing instruments that are "ingenious, delicate, and simple"(see p.137, vol. 32. The Daoist Canon).

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Middleman said:
Yes King Tut was real, but his official story isn't, imo.

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wyldeman007 said:
Amazing!! No one has yet "poked holes"!

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All anyone here manages to do is correct the inaccuracies of a theologically based theory.

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The facts don't all have to add up to be primarily conclusive in parts 1 through 3.

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Zeitgeist remains substantial and is impervious to religious arguments.

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Being accurate or not is beside the point Zeitgeist relays to us

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if your going to discredit this film look elsewhere than the religious aspect.

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You might be poking holes in Peter Joseph's understanding of religion but definitely not the film itself.

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Poking holes in the whole is what I mean.

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What I mean by conclusive in this case, is you don't need Zeitgeist to prove that religion is irrelevant (people will believe in what ever religion they want) Zeitgeist isn't dependent on that fact...

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suggesting that religion has any argumentative power over Zeitgeist has no standing as ammunition.

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Zeitgeist deals with facts not opinions.

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Accuracy of religious stories doesn't change the fact that there is no god.

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Of course a documentary needs to be accurate, only with the facts, religious interpretations are opinions and cannot be proven right or wrong.

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wyldeman007 said:
Is religion dangerous? Has religion been the bane of mankind in the past and has religion been used as terror tactics over communities?

I believe this to be the point of parts 1 2 3 of Zeitgeist, not the origins and histories of religion.

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I can gather you have little respect for me and view me as 'below' your intelligence.

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ZShroom said:
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/


I thought this movie was informatitive and easy to understand. I mean I know there are alot of people out there that still dont wanna believe in "conspiracy" theorys, but i mean after watching this you really dont have a choice. And also it is not like this movie is just a bunch of ideas and thoughts...no it is a movie with ideas with facts to back them up, so like i said....go ahead and try. I was half tempted to put this in the P&S forum but i know they would flip out and write a bunch of crazy things saying how the movie is not good. Whatever just watch and respond....

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learningtofly said:
even if it's not 100% true its pretty fucking interesting

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Silversoul said:

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learningtofly said:
even if it's not 100% true its pretty fucking interesting

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Sounds like a review of a Michael Moore film.

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Krishna was the 8th Avatar of Vishnu and while he wasn't 'resurrected' from death he for sure ascended... in my book thats close enough for me..

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Bethelhem really does mean"house of bread" and isn't it resonable to believe that the city was founded and named, based on that? As for the "prophecy" of the Messiah being born there, Jews don't believe that it was Jesus Christ. Since the Old Testement is based on Judeism, isn't that a red light?

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There's actually no archeological evidence of Egyptions owning slaves, they were actually Egyption townsfolk who received benefits from reduced taxes in exchange for manual labor. In all the hieroglyphs to date there are no connections of Jews being slaves of Egyptions.

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Religion, the Bible, the Koran, the Torah etc.. aren't archeological accounts, they aren't secondary sources even, from a scientific standpoint they are heresay evidence and have no merit.

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wyldeman007 said:
Here's some stuff to look at:Who chose Dec. 25th?
And the bit about Constantine: Sol Invictus
Either the bible was written to appeal to pagans or the bible was based on pagan worship. That's strong astrological evidence...

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wyldeman007 said:
I'm back with more links and info..

More on Horus...
As far as being a teacher at age 12 and having 12 deciples, all I can say it that a lot of coincedental numerological findings of 12 are common in both the bible and hieroglyphs.

Horus age 12 baptized by Anup...(pages 613-614 in "Ancient Egypt - the light of the World..." by Gerald Massey.

Similarities that wheren't underlined in Zeitgeist:

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Osiris, whom Horus loved
Lazarus, whom Jesus loved.

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Meh-Isis, the virgin mother of Iu, her Su or son
Mary the virgin mother of Jesus.

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Seb, the earth-father, as consort to the virgin Meh
Joseph, the father on earth, as putative husband to the Virgin Mary.

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Meri or Nut, the mother-heaven
Mary as Regina Coeli.

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Isis taken by Horus in adultery with Sut
The woman taken in adultery.

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