|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic
#7702150 - 12/01/07 09:24 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Chavez threatens to cut off oil to the U.S. if they interfere with an attempt by Chavez to change the constitution to make him ruler for life.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,314466,00.html
Quote:
"Anyone who votes 'No' is voting for George W. Bush," he said. "Our real enemy is called the U.S. empire, and on Sunday, Dec. 2, we're going to give another knockout to Bush, so no one forgets that is the battlefield."
So according to Chavez.. if any Venezuelan doesn't like Chavez.. it's OUR fault... because there's no possible way a SINGLE Venezuelan could dislike Chavez on his/her own.... riiiiIiIIight.
Chavez is learning from Bush's tactics where if you're against the war then you MUST be FOR the terrorists.
The acticle goes on to say
Quote:
University students have led protests and occasionally clashed with police and Chavista groups. One man was shot dead Monday while trying to get through a road blocked by protesters.
Chavez is pure scum.
I personally think he's the next Hitler.
Mark my words, we're going to keep letting him throw a tantrum and he's going to start fudging votes and silencing his opposition one way or another, which he's already done by pulling broadcasting licenses for TV stations that don't support him. Next thing he's going to just start kidnapping, jailing, and even killing people who oppose him. He's already passed laws saying that people cannot disrespect him (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5755-2005Mar27.html) which gives him full right to arrest anyone who calls him a DEVIL but he's got no problem coming to American and calling OUR president a DEVIL in OUR country.
Then one day when his head gets huge enough (which, if you know what he looks like, couldn't physically BE any larger) he's going to start trying to take over all the othe South American countries either through shrewd tactics or by force.
Edited by BrAiN (12/01/07 09:33 AM)
|
Rylmonkey
Former Master ofThe RX-7



Registered: 07/24/05
Posts: 505
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7702167 - 12/01/07 09:36 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
WOW what a deuche. My cousin lives there and ever since this corrupt cock sucker trying to cover up his corruption with shitty extremist views came into the picture the country has gone to shit. I hope the CIA kills his ass, oh yeh forgot there fucken pussies, and the only way to do something without making the US look bad is to start a straight war with that fucker. MAN I get so pissed when I hear his name. should of took over venezula instead of the desert land.
|
Rylmonkey
Former Master ofThe RX-7



Registered: 07/24/05
Posts: 505
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: Rylmonkey]
#7702175 - 12/01/07 09:39 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
venezula is so corrupt that the cartel guerillas and the FARC can probably pound the venzuelan army to the ground. why the fuck does the world have to wait until the US makes the first move. can't chile go in and shoot the corruption down, oh yeh I forgot wars aren't for the greater good of mankind, just for the profit of the few.
|
Syle
Kenai Sigh


Registered: 10/16/05
Posts: 6,678
Loc: WA
Last seen: 10 months, 26 days
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: Rylmonkey]
#7702525 - 12/01/07 11:46 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
the whole "with us, or against us" theme sounds eerily similar to what I have heard bush speak about the terrorists. not saying that it's a fair comparison, but it's still kind of eerie.
-------------------- https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7702743 - 12/01/07 12:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:01 PM)
|
zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7702753 - 12/01/07 01:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
What are the reasons for his popularity among the masses? Maybe it has something to do with a man who, in 1992 as a high-ranking military officer, risked his life & his freedom to lead a revolt against a hated government? Maybe it has something to do with policies which have decreased the poverty rates & extreme poverty rates, & the increase of primary care physicians from just over 1600 in the entire country to almost 20,000 today since being elected in 1998. Maybe it has something to do with rapid expansion of healthcare services to people who've never had health care before. Maybe it has something to do with using the nation's wealth to build housing projects for the homeless & those living in shacks instead of going into the bank accounts of the oligarchy as long was the case & still is the case in many other parts of Latin American. Maybe it has something to do with infant mortality having decreased by about 20%, or the increase in literacy rates.
Maybe it has something to do with skyrocketing oil prices.
All that extra oil revenue would make almost anyone look like a genius.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zorbman]
#7702798 - 12/01/07 01:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:02 PM)
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7702981 - 12/01/07 02:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: Brief overview of Venezuelan politics...
wealthier, light-skinned people there generally hate him;
poorer, darker-skinned people generally support him.
what the fuck.......
Chavez is Castro with oil.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: lonestar2004]
#7703046 - 12/01/07 02:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:02 PM)
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7703294 - 12/01/07 04:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
EntheogenicPeace said: Brief overview of Venezuelan politics...
wealthier, light-skinned people there generally hate him;
poorer, darker-skinned people generally support him."
I found out that Hugo Chavez hates DA Jews......
http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/000625.html
calls them christ killers...
Why are Communist always Anti-Semitic
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7703327 - 12/01/07 04:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Chavez is pure scum.
I personally think he's the next Hitler.
He wishes he could be that important. I'd like to see him try and invade one of his neighbors.
--------------------
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: Silversoul]
#7703345 - 12/01/07 04:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
no shit.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: lonestar2004]
#7703355 - 12/01/07 04:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:03 PM)
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7703420 - 12/01/07 04:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: Name three Jewish people who fought against Simón Bolívar.
Hugo Chavez ain't no Simon Bolivar.
Quote:
Silversoul said: He wishes he could be that important.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: lonestar2004]
#7703496 - 12/01/07 04:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:04 PM)
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7703499 - 12/01/07 04:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: But as superior, enlightened Americans, we know the above to be lies. When a foreign reporter goes to a neighborhood on the outskirts of Caracas & asks a random person why they support Hugo Chávez & they say, "He's the first leader we've ever had who cares about the lower classes," we know what they're really saying is, "I hate freedom & support al-Qaeda."
Go to Los Angles or any other major city with lots of Latin immigrants. Ask any Venezuelan there what they think of Chavez. They'll give you the profile of a total facist which is part of the reason they came to the states.
Ask these same people what class of people they belonged to back in Venezuela and they'll be plenty that will be from the poorer side.
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7703517 - 12/01/07 05:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:05 PM)
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7703520 - 12/01/07 05:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
"The world has enough for all. But it turned out that some minorities, descendants of those who crucified Christ, descendants of those who threw Bolivar out of here and also crucified him in their own way in Santa Marta, there in Colombia, a minority took the world's riches for themselves." Hugo Chavez
WTF
call me paranoid (half jewish) Jews living in Venezuela need to run again!
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7703541 - 12/01/07 05:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
What the fuck...
My summery was indeed correct. I know the values of the majority of people in Venezuela may seem alien to you... after all, who the fuck cares more about distribution of a society's resources than whether or not the Patriots are gonna 16-0 or what crazy thing(s) Britney Spears, Lindsey Lohan or Paris Hilton did over the weekend, right? But whether or not most white people in America hate Chávez, he is viewed favorably by a majority in Venezuela (& most other parts of Latin America). It's ironic that Amerikans claim to fighting "for democracy" in Iraq; people elsewhere in the world know better. What Amerikans really mean by "democracy" is a climate favorable to their political/economic interests, not the will of a majority of the people in a given area... as the majority in Latin America know better than anyone.
Oh God. The only way you can argue your point is by using the "what do we white people know, we only care about Brittney Speaer" tactic.
What does that have anything to do with this?
I'm just as critical of the way the U.S. tried to influence other countries in the past (especially Chile and Argentina), but in South America these days I doubt we give as much of a crap about rising communists.
Hell Brazil JUST this year found out they were sitting 'goldmines' of crude oil... We've got plenty of other people we can get it from.
And there are plenty of poor Venezuelans that hate Chavez because he represents almost exactly the same thing Bush is here.. someone who fudges the elections to try to cheat his way into power and make sure anything possible is done to silence and humiliate anyone who thinks differently?
Why is it ok to bitch about the republican party in the states that tries to fuck the poor, yet it's a big deal to try to talk smack about someone who bitches about Chavez who does the same thing, just to a different set of people He doesn't give a shit about the poor anyways, he just does whatever appeals to the largest demographic to stay in power. He's smart. That's what smart, power hungry people do.
What's wrong with people here in America, regardless of whether or not they listen to Britney Spears or whatever, getting pissed at a country that treats it's citizen like subjects to a Royal government rather than like people? Is it any wonder there are so many organizations that deal with human rights as well as a flood of emmigrants that will tell you about how horrible their government is?
I'm against the U.S. getting involved. They don't post any threat to us for now, but I can definately see Chavez pushing the limts of what's ethical as just a human being and trying to carry that policy on to his neighbors.
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: lonestar2004]
#7703548 - 12/01/07 05:06 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:06 PM)
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7703573 - 12/01/07 05:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:06 PM)
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7703581 - 12/01/07 05:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:06 PM)
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7703585 - 12/01/07 05:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: Can you list anti-semitic occurances in Venezuela considering even a U.S. State Department report has said no such sentiment has any popularity there? Or is making things up an effective way to demonize people?
"The human-rights situation in Venezuela under populist president Hugo Chavez has been deteriorating for some time. But last week the proverbial canary in the coalmine died when Venezuelan police raided the Colegio Hebraica, the private Jewish school in Caracas. The raid took place in the early morning, just as students were arriving for the start of the school day.
Ostensibly, the raid was part of the investigation into the November 18 assassination by car bombing of State Prosecutor Danilo Anderson. Anderson (who was initially appointed to prosecute environmental crimes) was handling high-profile political prosecutions — including that of the plotters of the April 2002 coup attempt against Chavez. The assassins are unknown, but the Chavez, his allies, and the state-controlled media have blamed the Venezuelan opposition, Venezuelan expatriates in Miami, and various foreign forces including the Mossad. This putative Mossad connection was the excuse for the raid on the Colegio Hebraica.
This raid is only part of Chavez's steady destruction of Venezuela's civil society and democratic institutions. The Venezuelan National Assembly recently passed a new law restricting television and radio content. Officially the law is intended to protect Venezuela's children from pornography and violence, but the vaguely worded statute could easily be used to hinder the expression of political views as well. Chavez is also packing Venezuela's supreme court.
The treatment of Jewish communities has always been a crucial indicator of a government's commitment to freedom and rule of law. In the words of prominent Venezuelan journalist Carlos Blanco:
When a Jew is attacked for being such, we enter a zone of total and absolute risk for the free thinking and existence of all, Jews and non Jews alike. Do not believe the official apologies, they are part of the same set up.
(This translation is courtesy of Venezuela News and Views, a terrific blog that exemplifies how a blog can provide critical but overlooked news and intelligent, informed analysis.)
It is no coincidence that the raid occurred while Chavez was in Iran promoting bilateral trade, the Iranian-Venezuelan strategic relationship, and their shared opposition to a unipolar world (read: the United States). On this junket, Chavez also received a human-rights reward from Libya. Flush with cash from recent high oil prices, Chavez discussed major arms purchases with Russia and criticized the West for interfering with Ukraine's election. Hugo Chavez is clearly angling to become a player on the international stage.
Chavez's internal repression and international ambitions are accompanied by regional belligerence. His purchase of high-performance MiGs from Russia threatens to ignite a regional arms race. While irrelevant to Venezuela's real security concerns, Chavez may have plans for the MiGs. He has ignited dormant territorial disputes with his neighbors Columbia and Guyana. He has also funded far-left movements elsewhere in South America and given sanctuary to Columbian terrorists next door. Crucial to all of Chavez's activities is his key alliance with Fidel Castro. Chavez props up Fidel's tottering regime with oil, and Fidel sends thousands of operatives to Venezuela to help Chavez consolidate his rule.
We have a big and growing problem to our south. But Venezuela's opposition, while disappointed, is not vanquished. With a strong tradition of democratic rule and tolerance, many Venezuelans were deeply shocked by the raid on the Colegio Hebraica. Michael Rowan, a journalist with the leading paper El Universal wrote,
The fact that it was a Jewish school is lost on no one. This was an unmistakable message to the Jewish community, which has heard that loathsome message many times before. Early on, the Nazis used this tactic against the Jews to strike fear in their hearts, as it did. The whole world knows what came after that.... In the deafening silence from the government following this symbolic event, everyone in the community, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, and those with mixed ethnic or religious background, must stand up to the authorities, and say with one voice: I am a Jew. We are all Jews.
It is possible that Chavez has reached too far, and the opposition — also inspired by the example of Ukraine — can be galvanized to act. To do so, they will need American help. The alternative is more Chavez, and history teaches us where that will inevitably lead.
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/mannes200412140820.asp
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: lonestar2004]
#7703607 - 12/01/07 05:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:08 PM)
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7703617 - 12/01/07 05:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Five years from now Venezuela will look like Zimbabwe, and the world will blame it all on Bush, USA, and da Jews.....
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
Edited by lonestar2004 (12/01/07 05:27 PM)
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: lonestar2004]
#7703621 - 12/01/07 05:29 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:09 PM)
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7703651 - 12/01/07 05:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
Five years from now Venezuela will look like Zimbabwe,
I can't wait for five more years to come (assuming the U.S. hasn't installed a puppet government in Venezuela) so that can be refuted. I also can't wait to go there & see the revolution for myself as I intend to do within the next 5 years.
just visit the Cuban REVOLUTION now...
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: lonestar2004]
#7703685 - 12/01/07 05:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Are you for real (EntheogenicPeace) or is this someone like ZAPPAISGOD pretending to be a liberal socialist just to entertain me?
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: lonestar2004]
#7703724 - 12/01/07 05:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:09 PM)
|
Arp
roving mycophagist


Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: lonestar2004]
#7703753 - 12/01/07 06:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
and the world will blame it all on Bush, USA, and da Jews.....
Unfortunately I don't think people will ever learn when another country actively stage coups and work against whatever they have going on
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7703929 - 12/01/07 06:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BrAiN said: Go to Los Angles or any other major city with lots of Latin immigrants. Ask any Venezuelan there what they think of Chavez. They'll give you the profile of a total facist which is part of the reason they came to the states.
Not to discount the authoritarian tendencies of Chavez, but what responses do you think you'd get if you went to Canada and asked the Americans who moved there what they think of Bush?
--------------------
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7704246 - 12/01/07 08:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: Raiding a Jewish school because one has strong suspicion that someone or a group of people there is plotting to/actively working to overthrow a democratically-elected government is as anti-semitic as raiding a church for the same reason is anti-Catholic.
Chavez tags everyone that disagrees with him as 'plotting to overtthrow the government'
|
d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7704348 - 12/01/07 08:58 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: Brief overview of Venezuelan politics...
wealthier, light-skinned people there generally hate him;
poorer, darker-skinned people generally support him.
The former outnumber the latter. Therefore, his popularity & winning two elections & a U.S.-backed recall referendum (as well as a U.S.-backed, possibly orchestrated, military coup against him) declared fair by all international observers shouldn't be too hard to understand.
What are the reasons for his popularity among the masses? Maybe it has something to do with a man who, in 1992 as a high-ranking military officer, risked his life & his freedom to lead a revolt against a hated government? Maybe it has something to do with policies which have decreased the poverty rates & extreme poverty rates, & the increase of primary care physicians from just over 1600 in the entire country to almost 20,000 today since being elected in 1998. Maybe it has something to do with rapid expansion of healthcare services to people who've never had health care before. Maybe it has something to do with using the nation's wealth to build housing projects for the homeless & those living in shacks instead of going into the bank accounts of the oligarchy as long was the case & still is the case in many other parts of Latin American. Maybe it has something to do with infant mortality having decreased by about 20%, or the increase in literacy rates.
But as superior, enlightened Americans, we know the above to be lies. When a foreign reporter goes to a neighborhood on the outskirts of Caracas & asks a random person why they support Hugo Chávez & they say, "He's the first leader we've ever had who cares about the lower classes," we know what they're really saying is, "I hate freedom & support al-Qaeda."
So he's popular with the masses whose only exposure to politics are government handouts and the state controlled media? Wonderful. A distinction he shares with such great leaders as Hitler and Aristide, among others. Sure, he has imposed unrealistic economic policies doing great harm to the country, been unquestionably obtuse and hostile in matter of foreign affairs, limited personal freedom and the legitimacy of his government, and caused there to be little to no availability of milk, sugar, and meat as well high gas prices; but hey, he gives poor people free shit and has natural resource capital to keep him afloat for now, so who cares.
The man is insane and is destroying Venezuela's economy and democratic institutions little by little. The quicker that the opposition strengthens and enlightens the unfortunately ignorant poor majority of the country, the better.
And Cuba? What a sad place. Enjoy spending your time in hotels that the locals are not allowed to set foot in.
Oh, and in case you might wonder at all, my grandfather was a Venezuelan consul, my father was best friends with Caldera's son, i have friends and family friends living in Venezuela, and for the last 2 months I have been living in the Caribbean with a Cuban professor who teaches electrical engineering in the Caribbean under Cuban orders.
Also some of you might find this interesting: the PM of Trinidad is trying to pass a bunch of constitutional reforms one of which will allow him to remain leader for life. Shortly before the elections on Nov 5, he held a public rally where they handed out red shirts, red being the color of the party. Well $200 just happened to be pined inside of every shirt. Luckily, the guys sucks as a PM and the opposition party was able to pick up more seats from the elction.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
Edited by d33p (12/01/07 09:12 PM)
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: lonestar2004]
#7705642 - 12/02/07 06:42 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
lonestar2004 said: Are you for real (EntheogenicPeace) or is this someone like ZAPPAISGOD pretending to be a liberal socialist just to entertain me?
Hey you, I resent that. I would do a much more believable job parodying a liberal nutlog than EP does being one. If it WAS me you wouldn't even have a suspicion. 
Reading through this from the beginning I was somewhat willing to give Chavez a break and assume he meant intellectual descendants (it was the Romans who killed Jesus, after all). But perhaps he is looking to scapegoat them, by spuriously blaming some part of the coup attempt on Mossad and now we have this CIA rant when there is another threat to his power grab. I don't much give a fuck whether the Venezuelans elect Chavez for life, he's their problem if they want him, not mine or ours. If he exceeds his boundaries, and I doubt he will, then perhaps we will crush him.
--------------------
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zappaisgod]
#7705848 - 12/02/07 08:43 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I don't think we need to butt in either. I'm actually kind of interested in seeing how far Chavez pushes the limits.
I'm waiting for him to pass legislature that requires all citizens to suck on his penis at least once a week
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: d33p]
#7706216 - 12/02/07 11:35 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:12 PM)
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zappaisgod]
#7706496 - 12/02/07 12:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said: If it WAS me you wouldn't even have a suspicion.
Odd, because I sometimes suspect you of secretly being a leftist trying to make the neocons look bad(and going completely over the top with it).
--------------------
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: Silversoul]
#7706582 - 12/02/07 01:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Bullshit. I routinely kick 'tard ass. As a social scientist you are too nuanced to see domination, or anything else.
--------------------
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zappaisgod]
#7706614 - 12/02/07 01:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Thank you for proving my point.
--------------------
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: Silversoul]
#7706636 - 12/02/07 01:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
You had one? I just saw gratuitous nonsense.
--------------------
|
d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7706649 - 12/02/07 01:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: Empowering traditionally marginalized & persecuted groups of people to control their own destiny can be summarized as "handouts"? That is a very self-righteous & condescending viewpoint; the same kind of viewpoint Americans have always held towards non-white people, both inside & outside of their borders.
What empowered those groups of people were the democratic institutions in place for the last 50 years which allowed Chavez to get elected, the very institutions that Chavez is trying to destroy now. Are some of Chavez's expenditures genuinely beneficial to the lower classes? Yes, but there is nothing altruistic about it. Aside from some public projects which are more propaganda than anything else, Chavez has done an absolutely pathetic job by any measure. In a nation where the export income has exploded many times through the roof due to climbing oil prices (which are something like six times higher than they were when he took over), the economy's growth has been relatively feeble. You would have to be a genius at economic mismanagement, and work your ass off at sabotaging the nation, to do as badly as his regime has under such conditions. Nor is redistributing oil funds something that previous administrations didn't do -- there just were relatively little funds due to oil prices being at a record low. Look up Venezuelan history; learn why it was called "Saudi Venezuela" prior to the oil price collapse. Chavez is Mugabe or Aristide with oil. Believing anything else is the result of naivety.
One thing I don't understand about people like you are when you feel that things are going a little bit better you immediately don't want to strive for anything better. Do you seriously believe that the only two options for Venezuela are oppression under the orders of Us and corporate overlords or Chavez? The lowers class now knows that they are empowered by voting but you are somehow glad their leader wants to install himself for life and erode the very institutions responsible for what you feel has benefited them. Before long, Venezuelans won't have any choice. You'll either be with Chavez or you'll be lost, permanently. The funny thing is, could you imagine someone doing to Chavez what he did to the elected government in the early 90's. You better believe that he would have executed himself for sedition.
Quote:
'The country' is more the the wealthiest 10% or so who have traditionally maintained their wealth & power through mass oppression & exploitation of the lower classes, with the help of Washington. For the masses of the country however, his policies are uplifting them from oppression & giving them political & economic opportunities they've never before had. If you had actually read the proposed Constitution amendments that the poor & working class people of Venezuela will overwhelmingly & democratically pass today despite violent & undemocratic opposition from their domestic oligarchy with the assistance of Washington, you would see that transfer politically power (of which economic spending is the primary component) from the hands of a small minority into the hands of democratically-elected citizens' councils.
The majority are only fooled into believing that they are not being oppressed and living in comparable economic squalor. They see new construction and massive propaganda and they think things are changing and they forget the food shortages and they forget the erosion of their freedoms and soon they will be forgetting even their neighbors after they have disappeared. Before they know it, they will living in police state riddled with crime(crimes rates are soaring now) and poverty and will have great difficulty freeing themselves from it without a bloody revolution. Don't think that this isn't happening just because he spends some money on the largest and easiest to fool constituency of voters.
He is replacing government and private bureaucracy with his own thugs. If you believe otherwise, you are naive.
PQuote:
erhaps I should be more sympathetic to Washington's view, though. I can't feel good to see your banana republics toppled by popular discontent throughout the Hemisphere, where pesky Indians who they thought had all been killed or driven to oblivion, & as well as the masses of poor & working class, are starting to demand self-determination & freedom from domestic oligarchies & the U.S. imperialists. Can you believe the democratically-elected president of Ecuador, a friend of Hugo Chávez, said recently, after announcing their government wouldn't renew the contract for the sole U.S. military bases there (which has been key in helping spray poisons on the fields of small farmers in Colombia), that the U.S. can have a base in Ecuador as soon as Ecuador gets to have one in the U.S.? Who the fuck does this guy think he is? Doesn't he know he's supposed to do whatever Washington tells him?
Another friend of Hugo Chávez, the democratically-elected president of Bolivia, is both a fully indigenous Indian as well as the former leader of a coca-growers' union! That's two reasons right there that Washington should get rid of him (which they presently are working to do). He actually think indigenous Indians should be allowed to practice their traditional customs even though Washington says they can't! That dumb Indian should know better than to disobey the Wall Street & D.C. mafia bosses. Hopefully, they teach him a lesson & put those pesky Indians in Bolivia back in their places soon enough.
Congratulations for cramming that much bullshit into two paragraphs. You sound like the public relations guy for FARC.
Oh, and the only difference between latin America and the USA in terms of race is that the US's European Ancestors didn't fuck the natives as much.
Venezuela can do better than Chavez. It won't be easy and it won't happen quickly considering that even the prominent western nations have such a hard time getting shit right. But soon Chavez will be the only choice and then things will get really bad and that is the worst thing that can happen. You are not ignorant of the matter and actually support it, for that, fuck you.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
Edited by d33p (12/02/07 02:36 PM)
|
SlashOZ
:D



Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: d33p]
#7706715 - 12/02/07 01:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
ethnogenicpeace may be arguing for the wrong reasons but he is correct is saying we should not be supporting anti Chavez terrorism in Venezuela. Chavez is a complete idiot along with that fool in Iran. their policies are so obtuse at times you just have to laugh. however who says the united states has the right to interfere with another countries government? isn't that a violation of sovereignty?
-------------------- "Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose "Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS "When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi "Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson. "Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: SlashOZ]
#7706856 - 12/02/07 02:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
we should not be supporting anti Chavez terrorism in Venezuela.
Please provide a link backing up your seeming assertion that we are "supporting anti-Chavez terrorism".
--------------------
|
Arp
roving mycophagist


Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zappaisgod]
#7706913 - 12/02/07 02:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
|
Divided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zappaisgod]
#7706930 - 12/02/07 02:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
EntheogenicPeace,
What you describe is the typical format of a demagogue. Lowest common denominator populist policies to help an autocrat consolidate power. You hand out lots of free lunchs to get votes and support for your power grab. Take a look at people like Idi Amin. They all ride in on the shoulders of the poor and oppressed because their sentiment and sheer numbers can overwhelm the reason of everyone else.
-------------------- 1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..." 2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..." 3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zappaisgod]
#7706935 - 12/02/07 02:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
we should not be supporting anti Chavez terrorism in Venezuela.
Please provide a link backing up your seeming assertion that we are "supporting anti-Chavez terrorism".
I don't think SlashOZ is accusing the U.S. of doing so.. I think he's more just saying in a hypothetical sense that we shouldn't...
Which I agree with...
The CIA MIGHT be doing it (which wouldnt suprise me) or they MIGHT NOT be bothering either because they don't care or just because we stopped doing that shit after the cold war... who know... All we know is that according to declassified documents, our CIA has taken part in such activities the past with plenty of countries (Iran, Chile, etc). We don't even have to be stealth about it in some cases. In some cases we give weapons to governments to help them fight rebel groups. In some cases we give weapons to the rebel groups to help them fight the government.
Is it POSSIBLE we're doing any stealth work NOW in Venezuela? Sure. Are we doing it? Who the hell knows? It wouldn't suprise me if we were. Lord know how much money we blow every year on NSA and CIA activities. You think everyone in the CIA just sits around twiddling their thumbs? Their job is to go out in the field, stealthily, and see what's going on that could comprimise the security of America.
Asking for supporting links to show whether or not the CIA *is* operating in Venezuela is like asking your police department to tell you which cops are doing undercover work to catch which drug dealers. Why the fuck are they going to tell YOU when it comprimises their success? The only way you're going to find out is when the current system is Venezuela is no longer relavent and someone decides to de-classify a document 20 years from now.
Edited by BrAiN (12/02/07 02:51 PM)
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: Arp]
#7706948 - 12/02/07 02:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
--------------------
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7706970 - 12/02/07 02:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BrAiN said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
we should not be supporting anti Chavez terrorism in Venezuela.
Please provide a link backing up your seeming assertion that we are "supporting anti-Chavez terrorism".
I don't think SlashOZ is accusing the U.S. of doing so.. I think he's more just saying in a hypothetical sense that we shouldn't...
I think he is, but let's let him speak for himself.
Quote:
Which I agree with...
The CIA MIGHT be doing it (which wouldnt suprise me) or they MIGHT NOT be bothering either because they don't care or just because we stopped doing that shit after the cold war... who know... All we know is that according to declassified documents, our CIA has taken part in such activities the past with plenty of countries (Iran, Chile, etc)
Is it POSSIBLE we're doing it now in Venezuela? Sure. Are we doing it? Who the hell knows? It wouldn't suprise me if we were. Lord know how much money we blow every year on NSA and CIA activities. You think everyone in the CIA just sits around twiddling their thumbs? Their job is to go out in the field, stealthily, and see what's going on that could comprimise the security of America.
Asking for supporting links to show whether or not the CIA *is* operating in Venezuela is like asking your police department to tell you which cops are doing undercover work to catch which drug dealers. Why the fuck are they going to tell YOU when it comprimises their success?
I hope they have some presence in Venezuela but the quote was this: "anti-Chavez terrorism"
Does he have any reason to believe that is occurring? If so what is it? Don't give me any dog licking his balls answer either.
--------------------
|
Arp
roving mycophagist


Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zappaisgod]
#7706993 - 12/02/07 03:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: Arp]
#7707040 - 12/02/07 03:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
That aint even close.
--------------------
|
Arp
roving mycophagist


Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zappaisgod]
#7707061 - 12/02/07 03:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zappaisgod]
#7707121 - 12/02/07 03:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Does he have any reason to believe that is occurring? If so what is it? Don't give me any dog licking his balls answer either.
There's really going to be no way to prove one way or another right now. Like I said before, why don't police depts go around advertising the details of undercover operations.
But I'm just sayin, would you really be suprised if we DID have something going on there? We've gotten up in every other country's business that's been veering towards communism in the past 60 years by AT LEAST providing money to groups who oppose these governments.
Why would you think we WOULDN'T be at least assisting with financial or propoganda help in this case?
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7707135 - 12/02/07 03:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Actually I take back what I said... who knows really. What would be even more likely, in my eyes, of U.S. getting in Venezuela's business would be Chavez making up and planting evidence that we WERE.
The whole situation is fucked.
I just go back to asserting my original point and nothing else; Chavez is an asshole
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: d33p]
#7707149 - 12/02/07 03:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:14 PM)
|
Arp
roving mycophagist


Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7707171 - 12/02/07 03:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BrAiN said: Actually I take back what I said... who knows really.
Well there is evidence of US support to opposition and prior knowledge of the coup. Check that 15min viddy I posted earlier, it's pretty informative.
here are some documents: http://venezuelafoia.info/english.html
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: SlashOZ]
#7707172 - 12/02/07 03:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:14 PM)
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7707182 - 12/02/07 03:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
You're right all along EP. Chavez is a total angeland has EVERYONE's best interest in mind. That's exactly why he:
* Cuts off broadcasting licenses to everyone that isn't pro-Chavez http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/24/venezu10368.htm http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/11/30/venezu9754.htm
* Passes a law that lets him arrest anyone that talks smack about him http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/05/22/venezu15986.htm
* Suspend due process http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/10/16/venezu17104.htm
* Beats the shit out of people who voice their opinion http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/03/05/venezu8072.htm
* Suddenly amends the constitution to add 12 more pro-Chavez members to the supreme court JUST in time for them to oversee a recall vote of his being election http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/07/07/venezu9015.htm
I mean.. only a leader of the people with the cleanest soul would ever do the above. Who cares if he strips away basic human rights? He fights for the POOR! Who cares if Amnesty International has a file on Chavez that is almost as large as his physical HEAD:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-ven/index
And even if he is a jerk? Who cares? He accused the U.S. of aiding in a coup to overthrow him in 2002. That in itself should give him just cause to go around stripping everyone of their rights!!! But only in Venezuela... how dare we do it here in the U.S. under the name "Patriot Act". This behavior is perfectly acceptable in Venezuela though!
You're right about everything, EP! Chavez is the man. Give him a nobel peace prize.
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: Arp]
#7707202 - 12/02/07 04:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Arp said:
Quote:
BrAiN said: Actually I take back what I said... who knows really.
Well there is evidence of US support to opposition and prior knowledge of the coup. Check that 15min viddy I posted earlier, it's pretty informative.
here are some documents: http://venezuelafoia.info/english.html
Can you read? Terrorism. That's what he said, terrorism. Not some nebulous knowledge of a coup or funding of opposition groups, terrorism. That's what he said and I'd like to see him back it up. Of course, I don't expect him to because he has a rather glorious history of utterly failing to support anything he says. Reference challenged.
--------------------
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7707216 - 12/02/07 04:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:15 PM)
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zappaisgod]
#7707220 - 12/02/07 04:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Maybe he's referring to the 2002 coup attempt as Terrorism?
Whether or not the U.S. played a role in that? *shrugs*
That article that ARP posted just showed that it was POSSIBLE that Bush MIGHT HAVE known about an attempt at a coup.
* KNOWING that a coup is about to happen in a country and doing nothing -and- AIDING a coup are two totally different things.
That article doesn't really show jack squat, sorry.
|
Arp
roving mycophagist


Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zappaisgod]
#7707242 - 12/02/07 04:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
"terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence against people or property to coerce or intimidate governments or societies, often to achieve political, religious, or ideological objectives. "
Assisting people in overthrowing a government is terrorism in my book.
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: Arp]
#7707245 - 12/02/07 04:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:15 PM)
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7707250 - 12/02/07 04:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
That video does the same.. all it does it show that we knew that the coup was going down. It never says anything about OUR actions. Everything says "the plotters are going to do this", "the plotters are going to do that".
Doesn't show crap to me. The only thing this video shows is that we
1) knew it was coming (which everyone knew in the first place) 2) offered advice to a couple plotters 3) were planning for the change ahead of time because they knew it was happening.
Edited by BrAiN (12/02/07 04:23 PM)
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7707252 - 12/02/07 04:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: Going by that definition, the U.S. government is hands down the greatest terrorist organization in the world today.
I agree with you, but why do you keep bringing this up? We're trying to prove to you what a douche Chavez is to his own people and you keep bringing up American facism and imperialism?
Are you trying to say that Chavez should be allowed to be a dick just because we are? Or are you trying to say that Chaves isn't a dick.
Make up your mind.
Why is it whenever there is an anti-chavez post that talks about the way Chavez treats his own people (nothing to do with America), people flock to defend him as sticking up for his people. Then when we prove these people wrong by showing Chavez IS INDEED a douche, the argument suddenly switches to how crappy America is... trying to change the subject so they don't have to admit they're wrong.
|
Arp
roving mycophagist


Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7707273 - 12/02/07 04:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Whelp. It's difficult to get uncensored documents out of the CIA and various agencies, despite the freedom of information act.
but there's so much shady shit going on that it's hard not to believe that the US played an important role in the coup.
still If an elected government is overthrown, wouldn't it be in the US interest of saving democracy to do something about it? Instead they acknowledged the new government in a heartbeat.
|
Arp
roving mycophagist


Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7707289 - 12/02/07 04:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
ps. I'm not defending Chávez. After spending a year in South America I no longer trust most latinos
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: Arp]
#7707293 - 12/02/07 04:26 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Arp said: Whelp. It's difficult to get uncensored documents out of the CIA and various agencies, despite the freedom of information act.
but there's so much shady shit going on that it's hard not to believe that the US played an important role in the coup.
still If an elected government is overthrown, wouldn't it be in the US interest of saving democracy to do something about it? Instead they acknowledged the new government in a heartbeat.
Only if you believe that Chavez was actually elected. Like I said before... when they was a vote going on about whether or not to recall him, he suddenly violates the constitution by adding 12 more members to the supreme court, who oversaw the counting. If Bush tried something like this in America, there would be a damn revolution.
Chavez is very smart. He knows how to fudge an election.
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: Arp]
#7707296 - 12/02/07 04:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Arp said: ps. I'm not defending Chávez. After spending a year in South America I no longer trust most latinos
Oh I ain't talkin about you. 
At least you stick to the subject. All I'm saying is why does EP keep bringing up American imperialism in a thread about how Chavez treats his own people like shit?
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: Arp]
#7707306 - 12/02/07 04:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Arp said: After spending a year in South America I no longer trust most latinos
I'm engaged to one
|
d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7707358 - 12/02/07 04:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: Venezuela's had a democracy for the last 50 years? That would be news to most people living there.
Yea, it's not like Chavez, a former criminal charged with sedition, was allowed to run in the elections and win or anything.
Quote:
Why don't you research his childhood & years in the military before you make a statement on something you're not familiar with
Chavez takes measures to silence his opposition and reduce government transparency. He is power hungry and doesn't give a shit about the common Venezuelan.
Quote:
Or a result of not being white.
haha. ignorance is strength
TQuote:
hey're having a public vote (i.e. democracy) on a # of fundamental issues right now; whereas in the U.S. fundamental issues aren't usually on the ballot, just choices between two candidates who stand for more or less the same thing. The vote going on right now is being monitored by over 100 foreign observers from other parts of Latin America, the U.S. & Europe; as well as hundreds more from all sides of the political spectrum within Venezuela. Past election from '98 & beyond have been declared free & fair by all international observers. He's won three elections. If his proposed reforms win in this election, what more will it take for you to believe a majority in Venezuela want to take a different social & economic path than the one offered by neoliberalism?
Congrats for not having even a basic grasp of how the USA's government works. I don't care if the majority of people in Venezuela voted to make Chavez a god. A majority consensus doesn't make something right.
Quote:
One three occasions, & 4 shortly, the majority in Venezuela will disagree with you. But hey, lack of popular support has never stopped the U.S. from installing/support puppet dictators before around the world.
And lack of popular support won't stop Chavez from retaining power or murdering dissenters when he becomes dictator for life and completely fucks up the country. I'm sure he appreciates your support.
And I'm glad you conveniently skipped my first paragraph. Chavez is ass raping the economy and doing a shitty job of helping the lower classes considering rising oil prices. Look at this graph. Look at oil prices when Chavez took power in '98 and look at them now. Almost anyone would have improved the conditions of the lower class more than Chavez had, had they been running the country during this time.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
|
Arp
roving mycophagist


Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7707379 - 12/02/07 04:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
'm engaged to one
There are exceptions .
Why Chávez is paranoid and treats the people the way he do might be due to prior knowledge of what can happened when no precautions are taken. Too much corruption over there, and having generals and foreigners plotting against you doesn't make things better.
Hopefully he will not turn out to be another corrupt dictator, and more people will rise out of poverty.
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: Arp]
#7707402 - 12/02/07 05:02 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
We'll see.
He's already a corrupt dictator.
But I don' think he poses a real threat to the U.S. Anyone out there who isnt a superpower knows not to directly fuck with America or they'll get steamrolled. Chavez is one smart mother fucker, though. If the planets align properly I can see him being a superpower if things go right for him.... He'll slowly suck up as much power as he can in South America and pimp out his military as much as he can, make the right alliances over the next decade or so....
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: Arp]
#7707813 - 12/02/07 06:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Arp said: "terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence against people or property to coerce or intimidate governments or societies, often to achieve political, religious, or ideological objectives. "
Assisting people in overthrowing a government is terrorism in my book.
Pretty lax. China is thus terrorizing the US.
--------------------
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7708153 - 12/02/07 07:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:16 PM)
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: d33p]
#7708164 - 12/02/07 07:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:17 PM)
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7708170 - 12/02/07 07:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:17 PM)
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: d33p]
#7708186 - 12/02/07 07:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:17 PM)
|
d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7708418 - 12/02/07 08:48 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
He is power hungry and doesn't give a shit about the common Venezuelan.
A majority among the 'common Venezuelan' would disagree with you, but you're probably better qualified to speak for them than they are for themselves.
Quote:
I don't care if the majority of people in Venezuela voted...
Well, they do.
Quote:
And lack of popular support won't stop Chavez from retaining power...
Can you point out a time yet where he hasn't had popular support?
BTW, you keep saying how horrible of a job he's doing with the economy. Being as a majority disagree with you, why don't you stay out of their business & let them have the society a majority want? Or do you support more CIA coups & U.S.-trained death squads to eliminate him & his supporters as the U.S. has so often done in Latin America.
I would love to shove the majority of my foot up your ass.
Majorties don't mean shit in terms of whether something is right or just. Do you agree with that?
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
|
d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7708430 - 12/02/07 08:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
haha. ignorance is strength
Why don't you elaborate on that a bit? You probably think our heroes are savages. That's fine. We think your heroes are slave-owning, Indian murderers.
we? Does that include the voices in your head?
You claim that you need more pigment in your skin to not notice the similarities between mugabe, aristide, and chavez. That is just plain retarded.
I think your heroes are slave-fucking, indian murderers.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zappaisgod]
#7708457 - 12/02/07 09:03 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Arp said: "terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence against people or property to coerce or intimidate governments or societies, often to achieve political, religious, or ideological objectives. "
Assisting people in overthrowing a government is terrorism in my book.
Pretty lax. China is thus terrorizing the US.
China is threatening America? When did this start happening?
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7708460 - 12/02/07 09:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
He's already a corrupt dictator.
Can you explain how someone who's won 3 fair elections is a dictator?
Nevermind. Why am I even debating with someone who thinks it's fair to violate their country's laws by adding pro-chavez people to the country's supreme court (who oversees the elections) RIGHT before an election?
You're right.. totally fair. I think Bush should start doing that too because it's so fair. I think Bush should propose a law to make himself electable for a third term and then suddely just ADD 12 republican supreme court justices while the court is deliberating on whether or not to allow it.
Sounds fair to me.
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: d33p]
#7708680 - 12/02/07 10:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:19 PM)
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: d33p]
#7708728 - 12/02/07 10:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:19 PM)
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7708755 - 12/02/07 10:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:19 PM)
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7708789 - 12/02/07 10:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: But no, there is nothing undemocratic about running for a third, fourth, or even fifth term if the elections are free and fair.
There is if he violates the constitution to achieve a third term
|
SlashOZ
:D



Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7708790 - 12/02/07 10:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
if bin laden funded an attempted coup against the U.S. president we would call it terrorism, why isn't the same true if we do it to another country? besides i think there is a long line of the U.S. funding violence, since zappa opposes the use of the word terror, in latin america. the Iran-contra scandal comes to mind. actually scratch that. the entire 70s and 80s comes to mind with regards to the U.S. screwing around with latin america.
-------------------- "Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose "Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS "When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi "Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson. "Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
|
d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7709205 - 12/03/07 12:00 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: Relating that to Venezuela... let's say the government of Hugo Chávez has murdered in cold blood 100 civilians to date and no one was tried for the murders. I'm not aware of a single instance where both of those items are true, though. Even so it wouldn't even register compared to the hundreds of thousands of civilians murdered in cold blood by U.S. backed (& often armed & trained... and sometimes even directed) governments and paramilitary organizations throughout the 20th century. For this reason any talk of democracy, or of things being right or wrong, by Americans is seen as extremely hypocritical in most of the rest of the world, especially in Latin America because the things America self-righteously condemns as being 'wrong', it is often the largest and most flagrant perpetrator of.
So because the shit hasn't hit the fan everyone has to stop being critical of the situation and ignore what appears to be happening.
And, "Ohh, Americans have done bad shit so therefore they are not allowed to bring anything up ever." That's one one of the fucking dumbest arguments ever. You sound like a little kid, "But mommy, billy does it tooooooo."
Anyway, I'm West Indian, what the fuck have we done to you?
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
|
d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7709240 - 12/03/07 12:11 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: First off, how many free & fair elections declared as such by all international observers has Robert Mugabe won?
I believe 3 presidential elections and 2 by proxy of parliamentary elections which were all as free and fair as Venezuela's. Aside from that, not everything needs to be exactly the same for a comparison. After all, Mugabe is negro and dresses better.
Quote:
o. It includes tens of millions of indigenous American Indians from throughout the Western Hemisphere.
And what a lovely figurehead they elected in you.
Quote:
I think your heroes are slave-fucking, indian murderers.
Quote:
This moronic comment reveals that you may be the one with voices in your head who needs professional medical assistance. Can you name one of my heroes who fits this description?
Well, for starters the brothers of the imaginary bitch that you claim is one of my heroes who is also a slave owning indian murderer. I think their names are Bull Shit and Smart Ass. I could never understand why you thought them as heroes, the bitch is clearly more heroic.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
|
zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7709249 - 12/03/07 12:13 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
CARACAS, Venezuela - President Hugo Chavez suffered a stunning defeat Monday in a referendum that would have let him run for re-election indefinitely and impose a socialist system in this major U.S. oil provider. Voters defeated the sweeping measures Sunday by a vote of 51 percent to 49 percent, said Tibisay Lucena, chief of the National Electoral Council, with voter turnout at just 56 percent.
She said that with 88 percent of the votes counted, the trend was irreversible.
Opposition supporters shouted with joy as Lucena announced the results on national television early Monday, their first victory against Chavez after nine years of electoral defeats.
Some broke down in tears. Others began chanting "And now he's going away!"
"This was a photo finish," Chavez told reporters at the presidential palace, adding that unlike past Venezuelan governments, his respects the people's will.
Exactly a year ago, Chavez won re-election with 63 percent of the vote.
"Don't feel sad," Chavez urged supporters, especially given the "microscopic differences" between the "yes" and "no" options in a referendum that opponents feared could have meant a plunge toward dictatorship.
Chavez's supporters said he would have used the reforms to deepen grass-roots democracy and more equitably spread Venezuela's oil wealth.
The changes would have created new forms of communal property, let Chavez handpick local leaders under a redrawn political map, permit civil liberties to be suspended under extended states of emergency and allow Chavez to seek re-election indefinitely. Now, Chavez will be barred from running again in 2012.
Other changes would have shortened the workday from eight hours to six, created a social security fund for millions of informal laborers and promoted communal councils where residents decide how to spend government funds. The reforms also would have granted Chavez control over the Central Bank and extended presidential terms from six to seven years.
"To those who voted against my proposal, I thank them and congratulate them," Chavez said.
But he also urged calm and restraint. "I ask all of you to go home, know how to handle your victory," Chavez said. "You won it. I wouldn't have wanted that Pyrrhic victory."
Yet he made it clear he would remain a formidable foe.
Echoing words he spoke when as an army officer he was captured and jailed for leading a failed 1992 coup, he said: "For now, we couldn't."
The ever combative Chavez had warned opponents ahead of the vote he would not tolerate attempts to incite violence, and threatened to cut off oil exports to the U.S. if Washington interfered.
All was reported calm during Sunday's voting but 45 people were detained, most for committing ballot-related crimes like "destroying electoral materials," said Gen. Jesus Gonzalez, chief of a military command overseeing security.
At a polling station in one politically divided Caracas neighborhood, Chavez supporters shouted "Get out of here!" to opposition backers who stood nearby aiming to monitor the vote count. A few dozen Chavistas rode by on motorcycles with bandanas and hats covering their faces, some throwing firecrackers.
Opponents — including Roman Catholic leaders, press freedom groups, human rights groups and prominent business leaders — feared the reforms would have granted Chavez unchecked power and threatened basic rights.
Cecilia Goldberger, a 56-year-old voting in affluent eastern Caracas, said Venezuelans did not really understand how Chavez's power grab would affect them. She resented pre-dawn, get-out-the-vote tactics by Chavistas, including fireworks and reveille blaring from speakers mounted on cruising trucks.
"I refuse to be treated like cattle and I refuse to be part of a communist regime," the Israeli-born Goldberger said, adding that she and her businessman husband hope to leave the country.
Chavez, 53, is seen by many as a champion of the poor who has redistributed more oil wealth than any other leader in memory.
Tensions have surged in recent weeks as university students led protests and occasionally clashed with police and Chavista groups.
Lucena called the vote "the calmest we've had in the last 10 years."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_constitution_87;_ylt=AovbjAlFM3X9LedPtJwaM_0E1vAI
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
|
d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7709258 - 12/03/07 12:14 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: You keep alleging the elections are fraudulent, yet no international observer has said there have been any allegations of corruption. Further, that would be about the dumbest thing the government led by Hugo Chávez could do since it has the votes needed to win elections anyways. Typically, if I government is going to rig an election, they do so because they think they're gonna lose, not when they're confident they're gonna win.
Nixon could have used you as a presidential aide. And I've heard anecdotal evidence of election fraud in Venezuela in the form of uniformed soldiers removing ballots from boxes.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
|
BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zorbman]
#7709801 - 12/03/07 07:15 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
He'll try it again. When his term is up, he'll find a way to stay in power don't worry.
|
Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7710230 - 12/03/07 10:41 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Honestly, I wouldn't have given a shit if this passed. If he ended up a brutal dictator, it's none of my concern. They elected him so they would get to live with him. As long as he keeps his nutty economic policy in his own country, I'm not sure what the concern is.
I'm not a huge fan of the guy by any means, but his country is relatively powerless. I don't see what the big deal is. The only thing I don't like about it is when his disastrous economic planning comes to fruition and the country falls apart, we'll have to pay to fix it up for some reason.
|
Mastamike1118


Registered: 03/29/07
Posts: 2,010
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: Redstorm]
#7711396 - 12/03/07 03:07 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
for some reason.... for more money you mean
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: d33p]
#7711437 - 12/03/07 03:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:21 PM)
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: d33p]
#7711445 - 12/03/07 03:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:22 PM)
|
Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7711485 - 12/03/07 03:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
And, "Ohh, Americans have done bad shit so therefore they are not allowed to bring anything up ever." That's one one of the fucking dumbest arguments ever. You sound like a little kid, "But mommy, billy does it tooooooo."
No. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy in someone condemning another when they've doing the same or worse and in immeasurably larger quantities.
When has d33p done something worse?
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: d33p]
#7711486 - 12/03/07 03:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:22 PM)
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: Redstorm]
#7711496 - 12/03/07 03:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:22 PM)
|
Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7711528 - 12/03/07 03:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I believe you are too hasty in your judgment based on citizenship and paying taxes.
I take it you do not pay taxes?
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7711529 - 12/03/07 03:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
The fact that the recent referendum proposed by Chávez's government failed to pass by a 51-49 margin indicates that there was no fraud because, if their was the election supervisors (admittedly his supporters) could have easily flipped those numbers around. If the results had been the other way you & just about everyone on here would be saying with 100% certainly that they were rigged.
it was probably 71-39 and he just wanted to save face....
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: lonestar2004]
#7711550 - 12/03/07 03:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:23 PM)
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: Redstorm]
#7711577 - 12/03/07 04:02 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:23 PM)
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7711659 - 12/03/07 04:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BrAiN said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Arp said: "terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence against people or property to coerce or intimidate governments or societies, often to achieve political, religious, or ideological objectives. "
Assisting people in overthrowing a government is terrorism in my book.
Pretty lax. China is thus terrorizing the US.
China is threatening America? When did this start happening?
The Chinese government has been illegally funding the Clintons' quest for dominance in return for tech secrets. My only point was that he posted a ludicrously broad definition of terrorism to make an assertion that the US was committing terrorism in Venezuela. I don't really see a lost election as an overthrow either but the true believers do.
--------------------
|
SlashOZ
:D



Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zappaisgod]
#7711823 - 12/03/07 04:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
gives sources to your clinton bs. it is just another reason not to for for clinton and continue to dual leadership of two stupid families. Arp's definition of terrorism is a pretty good one covering most aspects of terrorism. however campaign funding doesn't fall under that definition. it is the unlawful use of force or violence not the unlawful funding of stupid candidates.
-------------------- "Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose "Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS "When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi "Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson. "Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
|
d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7711842 - 12/03/07 04:56 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: No. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy in someone condemning another when they've doing the same or worse and in immeasurably larger quantities. I sound like a little kid? Actually, your use use of child-like quotations in an attempt to discount an argument in instead of using substance demonstrates a childish intellectual capacity.
That argument is retarded even if I was just a US citizen who pays taxes. Anyone with an inkling of sense can see that.
Quote:
So that's a no... you can't back it up with a single, real example instead of more childish sarcasm? You would just prefer to make as baseless an assertion as when Luddite called Che Guevara a "hairy faggot" & implied that he liked young boys?
Ugh, hello... You ignorantly accused me of having slave owning indian murderers as heroes so I ignorantly accused you of the same. It's not my fault if you are terrible at interpreting sarcasm.
And Che was a hairy faggot who liked young boys enough to murder them in cold blood.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
|
d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: d33p]
#7711940 - 12/03/07 05:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
I believe 3 presidential elections and 2 by proxy of parliamentary elections which were all as free and fair as Venezuela's.
Again, can you cite a source detailing election fraud in Venezuela as is easy to do in Zimbabwe?
Here is but one from one election...
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/africa/jan-june02/elections_3-13.html
The fact that the recent referendum proposed by Chávez's government failed to pass by a 51-49 margin indicates that there was no fraud because, if their was the election supervisors (admittedly his supporters) could have easily flipped those numbers around. If the results had been the other way you & just about everyone on here would be saying with 100% certainly that they were rigged.
There was no evidence in the link you provided, just claims.
If that fact proves that there was no fraud in Venezuela then I guess the fact that the constitutional referendum that Mugabe tried to pass in 2000 which failed indicates there is no election fraud in Zimbabwe too.
The following is taken frome wiki so take it for what it's worth.
"Let me congratulate the people of Zimbabwe for holding a peaceful, credible and well-organised election which we feel reflects the will of the people" said Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka, the South African cabinet minister that led the 55-member, 11-country observer mission from the Southern African Development Community.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: d33p]
#7715138 - 12/04/07 12:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:25 PM)
|
EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
|
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: d33p]
#7715190 - 12/04/07 12:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
---
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:26 PM)
|
|