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BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
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Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7708460 - 12/02/07 09:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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EntheogenicPeace said:
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He's already a corrupt dictator.
Can you explain how someone who's won 3 fair elections is a dictator?
Nevermind. Why am I even debating with someone who thinks it's fair to violate their country's laws by adding pro-chavez people to the country's supreme court (who oversees the elections) RIGHT before an election?
You're right.. totally fair. I think Bush should start doing that too because it's so fair. I think Bush should propose a law to make himself electable for a third term and then suddely just ADD 12 republican supreme court justices while the court is deliberating on whether or not to allow it.
Sounds fair to me.
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: d33p]
#7708680 - 12/02/07 10:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:19 PM)
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: d33p]
#7708728 - 12/02/07 10:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:19 PM)
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7708755 - 12/02/07 10:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:19 PM)
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BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
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Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7708789 - 12/02/07 10:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: But no, there is nothing undemocratic about running for a third, fourth, or even fifth term if the elections are free and fair.
There is if he violates the constitution to achieve a third term
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SlashOZ
:D



Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
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Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7708790 - 12/02/07 10:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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if bin laden funded an attempted coup against the U.S. president we would call it terrorism, why isn't the same true if we do it to another country? besides i think there is a long line of the U.S. funding violence, since zappa opposes the use of the word terror, in latin america. the Iran-contra scandal comes to mind. actually scratch that. the entire 70s and 80s comes to mind with regards to the U.S. screwing around with latin america.
-------------------- "Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose "Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS "When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi "Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson. "Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7709205 - 12/03/07 12:00 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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EntheogenicPeace said: Relating that to Venezuela... let's say the government of Hugo Chávez has murdered in cold blood 100 civilians to date and no one was tried for the murders. I'm not aware of a single instance where both of those items are true, though. Even so it wouldn't even register compared to the hundreds of thousands of civilians murdered in cold blood by U.S. backed (& often armed & trained... and sometimes even directed) governments and paramilitary organizations throughout the 20th century. For this reason any talk of democracy, or of things being right or wrong, by Americans is seen as extremely hypocritical in most of the rest of the world, especially in Latin America because the things America self-righteously condemns as being 'wrong', it is often the largest and most flagrant perpetrator of.
So because the shit hasn't hit the fan everyone has to stop being critical of the situation and ignore what appears to be happening.
And, "Ohh, Americans have done bad shit so therefore they are not allowed to bring anything up ever." That's one one of the fucking dumbest arguments ever. You sound like a little kid, "But mommy, billy does it tooooooo."
Anyway, I'm West Indian, what the fuck have we done to you?
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7709240 - 12/03/07 12:11 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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EntheogenicPeace said: First off, how many free & fair elections declared as such by all international observers has Robert Mugabe won?
I believe 3 presidential elections and 2 by proxy of parliamentary elections which were all as free and fair as Venezuela's. Aside from that, not everything needs to be exactly the same for a comparison. After all, Mugabe is negro and dresses better.
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o. It includes tens of millions of indigenous American Indians from throughout the Western Hemisphere.
And what a lovely figurehead they elected in you.
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I think your heroes are slave-fucking, indian murderers.
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This moronic comment reveals that you may be the one with voices in your head who needs professional medical assistance. Can you name one of my heroes who fits this description?
Well, for starters the brothers of the imaginary bitch that you claim is one of my heroes who is also a slave owning indian murderer. I think their names are Bull Shit and Smart Ass. I could never understand why you thought them as heroes, the bitch is clearly more heroic.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7709249 - 12/03/07 12:13 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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CARACAS, Venezuela - President Hugo Chavez suffered a stunning defeat Monday in a referendum that would have let him run for re-election indefinitely and impose a socialist system in this major U.S. oil provider. Voters defeated the sweeping measures Sunday by a vote of 51 percent to 49 percent, said Tibisay Lucena, chief of the National Electoral Council, with voter turnout at just 56 percent.
She said that with 88 percent of the votes counted, the trend was irreversible.
Opposition supporters shouted with joy as Lucena announced the results on national television early Monday, their first victory against Chavez after nine years of electoral defeats.
Some broke down in tears. Others began chanting "And now he's going away!"
"This was a photo finish," Chavez told reporters at the presidential palace, adding that unlike past Venezuelan governments, his respects the people's will.
Exactly a year ago, Chavez won re-election with 63 percent of the vote.
"Don't feel sad," Chavez urged supporters, especially given the "microscopic differences" between the "yes" and "no" options in a referendum that opponents feared could have meant a plunge toward dictatorship.
Chavez's supporters said he would have used the reforms to deepen grass-roots democracy and more equitably spread Venezuela's oil wealth.
The changes would have created new forms of communal property, let Chavez handpick local leaders under a redrawn political map, permit civil liberties to be suspended under extended states of emergency and allow Chavez to seek re-election indefinitely. Now, Chavez will be barred from running again in 2012.
Other changes would have shortened the workday from eight hours to six, created a social security fund for millions of informal laborers and promoted communal councils where residents decide how to spend government funds. The reforms also would have granted Chavez control over the Central Bank and extended presidential terms from six to seven years.
"To those who voted against my proposal, I thank them and congratulate them," Chavez said.
But he also urged calm and restraint. "I ask all of you to go home, know how to handle your victory," Chavez said. "You won it. I wouldn't have wanted that Pyrrhic victory."
Yet he made it clear he would remain a formidable foe.
Echoing words he spoke when as an army officer he was captured and jailed for leading a failed 1992 coup, he said: "For now, we couldn't."
The ever combative Chavez had warned opponents ahead of the vote he would not tolerate attempts to incite violence, and threatened to cut off oil exports to the U.S. if Washington interfered.
All was reported calm during Sunday's voting but 45 people were detained, most for committing ballot-related crimes like "destroying electoral materials," said Gen. Jesus Gonzalez, chief of a military command overseeing security.
At a polling station in one politically divided Caracas neighborhood, Chavez supporters shouted "Get out of here!" to opposition backers who stood nearby aiming to monitor the vote count. A few dozen Chavistas rode by on motorcycles with bandanas and hats covering their faces, some throwing firecrackers.
Opponents — including Roman Catholic leaders, press freedom groups, human rights groups and prominent business leaders — feared the reforms would have granted Chavez unchecked power and threatened basic rights.
Cecilia Goldberger, a 56-year-old voting in affluent eastern Caracas, said Venezuelans did not really understand how Chavez's power grab would affect them. She resented pre-dawn, get-out-the-vote tactics by Chavistas, including fireworks and reveille blaring from speakers mounted on cruising trucks.
"I refuse to be treated like cattle and I refuse to be part of a communist regime," the Israeli-born Goldberger said, adding that she and her businessman husband hope to leave the country.
Chavez, 53, is seen by many as a champion of the poor who has redistributed more oil wealth than any other leader in memory.
Tensions have surged in recent weeks as university students led protests and occasionally clashed with police and Chavista groups.
Lucena called the vote "the calmest we've had in the last 10 years."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_constitution_87;_ylt=AovbjAlFM3X9LedPtJwaM_0E1vAI
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7709258 - 12/03/07 12:14 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: You keep alleging the elections are fraudulent, yet no international observer has said there have been any allegations of corruption. Further, that would be about the dumbest thing the government led by Hugo Chávez could do since it has the votes needed to win elections anyways. Typically, if I government is going to rig an election, they do so because they think they're gonna lose, not when they're confident they're gonna win.
Nixon could have used you as a presidential aide. And I've heard anecdotal evidence of election fraud in Venezuela in the form of uniformed soldiers removing ballots from boxes.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
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Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zorbman]
#7709801 - 12/03/07 07:15 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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He'll try it again. When his term is up, he'll find a way to stay in power don't worry.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
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Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
#7710230 - 12/03/07 10:41 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Honestly, I wouldn't have given a shit if this passed. If he ended up a brutal dictator, it's none of my concern. They elected him so they would get to live with him. As long as he keeps his nutty economic policy in his own country, I'm not sure what the concern is.
I'm not a huge fan of the guy by any means, but his country is relatively powerless. I don't see what the big deal is. The only thing I don't like about it is when his disastrous economic planning comes to fruition and the country falls apart, we'll have to pay to fix it up for some reason.
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Mastamike1118


Registered: 03/29/07
Posts: 2,010
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Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: Redstorm]
#7711396 - 12/03/07 03:07 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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for some reason.... for more money you mean
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: d33p]
#7711437 - 12/03/07 03:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:21 PM)
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: d33p]
#7711445 - 12/03/07 03:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:22 PM)
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
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Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7711485 - 12/03/07 03:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
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And, "Ohh, Americans have done bad shit so therefore they are not allowed to bring anything up ever." That's one one of the fucking dumbest arguments ever. You sound like a little kid, "But mommy, billy does it tooooooo."
No. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy in someone condemning another when they've doing the same or worse and in immeasurably larger quantities.
When has d33p done something worse?
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: d33p]
#7711486 - 12/03/07 03:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:22 PM)
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: Redstorm]
#7711496 - 12/03/07 03:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:22 PM)
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
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Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7711528 - 12/03/07 03:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I believe you are too hasty in your judgment based on citizenship and paying taxes.
I take it you do not pay taxes?
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#7711529 - 12/03/07 03:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
The fact that the recent referendum proposed by Chávez's government failed to pass by a 51-49 margin indicates that there was no fraud because, if their was the election supervisors (admittedly his supporters) could have easily flipped those numbers around. If the results had been the other way you & just about everyone on here would be saying with 100% certainly that they were rigged.
it was probably 71-39 and he just wanted to save face....
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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