Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]
Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7706649 - 12/02/07 01:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Empowering traditionally marginalized & persecuted groups of people to control their own destiny can be summarized as "handouts"? That is a very self-righteous & condescending viewpoint; the same kind of viewpoint Americans have always held towards non-white people, both inside & outside of their borders.




What empowered those groups of people were the democratic institutions in place for the last 50 years which allowed Chavez to get elected, the very institutions that Chavez is trying to destroy now. Are some of Chavez's expenditures genuinely beneficial to the lower classes? Yes, but there is nothing altruistic about it. Aside from some public projects which are more propaganda than anything else, Chavez has done an absolutely pathetic job by any measure. In a nation where the export income has exploded many times through the roof due to climbing oil prices (which are something like six times higher than they were when he took over), the economy's growth has been relatively feeble. You would have to be a genius at economic mismanagement, and work your ass off at sabotaging the nation, to do as badly as his regime has under such conditions. Nor is redistributing oil funds something that previous administrations didn't do -- there just were relatively little funds due to oil prices being at a record low. Look up Venezuelan history; learn why it was called "Saudi Venezuela" prior to the oil price collapse. Chavez is Mugabe or Aristide with oil. Believing anything else is the result of naivety.

One thing I don't understand about people like you are when you feel that things are going a little bit better you immediately don't want to strive for anything better. Do you seriously believe that the only two options for Venezuela are oppression under the orders of Us and corporate overlords or Chavez? The lowers class now knows that they are empowered by voting but you are somehow glad their leader wants to install himself for life and erode the very institutions responsible for what you feel has benefited them. Before long, Venezuelans won't have any choice. You'll either be with Chavez or you'll be lost, permanently. The funny thing is, could you imagine someone doing to Chavez what he did to the elected government in the early 90's. You better believe that he would have executed himself for sedition.

Quote:

'The country' is more the the wealthiest 10% or so who have traditionally maintained their wealth & power through mass oppression & exploitation of the lower classes, with the help of Washington. For the masses of the country however, his policies are uplifting them from oppression & giving them political & economic opportunities they've never before had. If you had actually read the proposed Constitution amendments that the poor & working class people of Venezuela will overwhelmingly & democratically pass today despite violent & undemocratic opposition from their domestic oligarchy with the assistance of Washington, you would see that transfer politically power (of which economic spending is the primary component) from the hands of a small minority into the hands of democratically-elected citizens' councils.




The majority are only fooled into believing that they are not being oppressed and living in comparable economic squalor. They see new construction and massive propaganda and they think things are changing and they forget the food shortages and they forget the erosion of their freedoms and soon they will be forgetting even their neighbors after they have disappeared. Before they know it, they will living in police state riddled with crime(crimes rates are soaring now) and poverty and will have great difficulty freeing themselves from it without a bloody revolution. Don't think that this isn't happening just because he spends some money on the largest and easiest to fool constituency of voters.

He is replacing government and private bureaucracy with his own thugs. If you believe otherwise, you are naive.

P
Quote:

erhaps I should be more sympathetic to Washington's view, though. I can't feel good to see your banana republics toppled by popular discontent throughout the Hemisphere, where pesky Indians who they thought had all been killed or driven to oblivion, & as well as the masses of poor & working class, are starting to demand self-determination & freedom from domestic oligarchies & the U.S. imperialists. Can you believe the democratically-elected president of Ecuador, a friend of Hugo Chávez, said recently, after announcing their government wouldn't renew the contract for the sole U.S. military bases there (which has been key in helping spray poisons on the fields of small farmers in Colombia), that the U.S. can have a base in Ecuador as soon as Ecuador gets to have one in the U.S.? Who the fuck does this guy think he is? Doesn't he know he's supposed to do whatever Washington tells him?

Another friend of Hugo Chávez, the democratically-elected president of Bolivia, is both a fully indigenous Indian as well as the former leader of a coca-growers' union! That's two reasons right there that Washington should get rid of him (which they presently are working to do). He actually think indigenous Indians should be allowed to practice their traditional customs even though Washington says they can't! That dumb Indian should know better than to disobey the Wall Street & D.C. mafia bosses. Hopefully, they teach him a lesson & put those pesky Indians in Bolivia back in their places soon enough.




Congratulations for cramming that much bullshit into two paragraphs. You sound like the public relations guy for FARC.

Oh, and the only difference between latin America and the USA in terms of race is that the US's European Ancestors didn't fuck the natives as much.

Venezuela can do better than Chavez. It won't be easy and it won't happen quickly considering that even the prominent western nations have such a hard time getting shit right. But soon Chavez will be the only choice and then things will get really bad and that is the worst thing that can happen. You are not ignorant of the matter and actually support it, for that, fuck you.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


Edited by d33p (12/02/07 02:36 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: d33p]
    #7706715 - 12/02/07 01:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

ethnogenicpeace may be arguing for the wrong reasons but he is correct is saying we should not be supporting anti Chavez terrorism in Venezuela. Chavez is a complete idiot along with that fool in Iran. their policies are so obtuse at times you just have to laugh. however who says the united states has the right to interfere with another countries government? isn't that a violation of sovereignty?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7706856 - 12/02/07 02:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

we should not be supporting anti Chavez terrorism in Venezuela.






Please provide a link backing up your seeming assertion that we are "supporting anti-Chavez terrorism".


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleArp
roving mycophagist
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7706913 - 12/02/07 02:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7706930 - 12/02/07 02:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

EntheogenicPeace,

What you describe is the typical format of a demagogue. Lowest common denominator populist policies to help an autocrat consolidate power. You hand out lots of free lunchs to get votes and support for your power grab. Take a look at people like Idi Amin. They all ride in on the shoulders of the poor and oppressed because their sentiment and sheer numbers can overwhelm the reason of everyone else.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7706935 - 12/02/07 02:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

we should not be supporting anti Chavez terrorism in Venezuela.






Please provide a link backing up your seeming assertion that we are "supporting anti-Chavez terrorism".




I don't think SlashOZ is accusing the U.S. of doing so.. I think he's more just saying in a hypothetical sense that we shouldn't...

Which I agree with...

The CIA MIGHT be doing it (which wouldnt suprise me) or they MIGHT NOT be bothering either because they don't care or just because we stopped doing that shit after the cold war... who know... All we know is that according to declassified documents, our CIA has taken part in such activities the past with plenty of countries (Iran, Chile, etc). We don't even have to be stealth about it in some cases. In some cases we give weapons to governments to help them fight rebel groups. In some cases we give weapons to the rebel groups to help them fight the government.

Is it POSSIBLE we're doing any stealth work NOW in Venezuela? Sure. Are we doing it? Who the hell knows? It wouldn't suprise me if we were. Lord know how much money we blow every year on NSA and CIA activities. You think everyone in the CIA just sits around twiddling their thumbs? Their job is to go out in the field, stealthily, and see what's going on that could comprimise the security of America.

Asking for supporting links to show whether or not the CIA *is* operating in Venezuela is like asking your police department to tell you which cops are doing undercover work to catch which drug dealers. Why the fuck are they going to tell YOU when it comprimises their success? The only way you're going to find out is when the current system is Venezuela is no longer relavent and someone decides to de-classify a document 20 years from now.


Edited by BrAiN (12/02/07 02:51 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: Arp]
    #7706948 - 12/02/07 02:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4124074101371070575&q=venezuela+coup&total=138&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

supposedly there are documents proving CIA involvement in the 2002 coup.




Not quite up to snuff.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
    #7706970 - 12/02/07 02:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BrAiN said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

we should not be supporting anti Chavez terrorism in Venezuela.






Please provide a link backing up your seeming assertion that we are "supporting anti-Chavez terrorism".




I don't think SlashOZ is accusing the U.S. of doing so.. I think he's more just saying in a hypothetical sense that we shouldn't...




I think he is, but let's let him speak for himself.
Quote:



Which I agree with...

The CIA MIGHT be doing it (which wouldnt suprise me) or they MIGHT NOT be bothering either because they don't care or just because we stopped doing that shit after the cold war... who know... All we know is that according to declassified documents, our CIA has taken part in such activities the past with plenty of countries (Iran, Chile, etc)

Is it POSSIBLE we're doing it now in Venezuela? Sure. Are we doing it? Who the hell knows? It wouldn't suprise me if we were. Lord know how much money we blow every year on NSA and CIA activities. You think everyone in the CIA just sits around twiddling their thumbs? Their job is to go out in the field, stealthily, and see what's going on that could comprimise the security of America.

Asking for supporting links to show whether or not the CIA *is* operating in Venezuela is like asking your police department to tell you which cops are doing undercover work to catch which drug dealers. Why the fuck are they going to tell YOU when it comprimises their success?




I hope they have some presence in Venezuela but the quote was this:
"anti-Chavez terrorism"

Does he have any reason to believe that is occurring? If so what is it? Don't give me any dog licking his balls answer either.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleArp
roving mycophagist
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7706993 - 12/02/07 03:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: Arp]
    #7707040 - 12/02/07 03:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

That aint even close.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleArp
roving mycophagist
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7707061 - 12/02/07 03:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

:monkeydance:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7707121 - 12/02/07 03:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Does he have any reason to believe that is occurring? If so what is it? Don't give me any dog licking his balls answer either.




There's really going to be no way to prove one way or another right now. Like I said before, why don't police depts go around advertising the details of undercover operations.

But I'm just sayin, would you really be suprised if we DID have something going on there? We've gotten up in every other country's business that's been veering towards communism in the past 60 years by AT LEAST providing money to groups who oppose these governments.

Why would you think we WOULDN'T be at least assisting with financial or propoganda help in this case?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
    #7707135 - 12/02/07 03:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Actually I take back what I said... who knows really. What would be even more likely, in my eyes, of U.S. getting in Venezuela's business would be Chavez making up and planting evidence that we WERE.

The whole situation is fucked.

I just go back to asserting my original point and nothing else; Chavez is an asshole


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: d33p]
    #7707149 - 12/02/07 03:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:14 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleArp
roving mycophagist
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
    #7707171 - 12/02/07 03:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BrAiN said:
Actually I take back what I said... who knows really.




Well there is evidence of US support to opposition and prior knowledge of the coup. Check that 15min viddy I posted earlier, it's pretty informative.

here are some documents:
http://venezuelafoia.info/english.html


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7707172 - 12/02/07 03:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:14 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7707182 - 12/02/07 03:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You're right all along EP. Chavez is a total angeland has EVERYONE's best interest in mind. That's exactly why he:

* Cuts off broadcasting licenses to everyone that isn't pro-Chavez
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/24/venezu10368.htm
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/11/30/venezu9754.htm

* Passes a law that lets him arrest anyone that talks smack about him
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/05/22/venezu15986.htm

* Suspend due process
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/10/16/venezu17104.htm

* Beats the shit out of people who voice their opinion
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/03/05/venezu8072.htm

* Suddenly amends the constitution to add 12 more pro-Chavez members to the supreme court JUST in time for them to oversee a recall vote of his being election
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/07/07/venezu9015.htm

I mean.. only a leader of the people with the cleanest soul would ever do the above. Who cares if he strips away basic human rights? He fights for the POOR! Who cares if Amnesty International has a file on Chavez that is almost as large as his physical HEAD:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-ven/index

And even if he is a jerk? Who cares? He accused the U.S. of aiding in a coup to overthrow him in 2002. That in itself should give him just cause to go around stripping everyone of their rights!!! But only in Venezuela... how dare we do it here in the U.S. under the name "Patriot Act". This behavior is perfectly acceptable in Venezuela though!

You're right about everything, EP! Chavez is the man. Give him a nobel peace prize.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: Arp]
    #7707202 - 12/02/07 04:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
Quote:

BrAiN said:
Actually I take back what I said... who knows really.




Well there is evidence of US support to opposition and prior knowledge of the coup. Check that 15min viddy I posted earlier, it's pretty informative.

here are some documents:
http://venezuelafoia.info/english.html




Can you read? Terrorism. That's what he said, terrorism. Not some nebulous knowledge of a coup or funding of opposition groups, terrorism. That's what he said and I'd like to see him back it up. Of course, I don't expect him to because he has a rather glorious history of utterly failing to support anything he says. Reference challenged.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Male


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: BrAiN]
    #7707216 - 12/02/07 04:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/30/21 08:15 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Chavez tries a "with us or against us" tactic [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7707220 - 12/02/07 04:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe he's referring to the 2002 coup attempt as Terrorism?


Whether or not the U.S. played a role in that? *shrugs*

That article that ARP posted just showed that it was POSSIBLE that Bush MIGHT HAVE known about an attempt at a coup.

* KNOWING that a coup is about to happen in a country and doing nothing -and- AIDING a coup are two totally different things.

That article doesn't really show jack squat, sorry.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Chavez: U.S. plans to invade Venezuela Unagipie 613 9 09/18/05 04:11 PM
by Redstorm
* Venezuela is just asking for it carbonhoots 1,376 12 03/31/05 08:16 PM
by JesusChrist
* Venezuelan E-Voting afoaf 433 0 07/13/04 10:21 AM
by afoaf
* Chavez to rule by decree
( 1 2 all )
Economist 2,823 31 01/23/07 06:50 PM
by Economist
* Chavez: Halloween part of U.S. culture of terror lonestar2004 661 6 11/01/05 08:08 PM
by gregorio
* Chavez wins again, firmly on the track to socialism
( 1 2 all )
Alex213 2,027 23 12/08/06 07:12 AM
by Arp
* Hugo Chavez can be re-elected indefinately
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
lines 6,202 121 03/03/09 05:19 PM
by ScavengerType
* Files show ties of Venezuela-Colombia rebels -U.S.
( 1 2 all )
Luddite 3,491 27 06/13/08 07:49 PM
by ScavengerType

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
5,225 topic views. 1 members, 3 guests and 1 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.028 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 15 queries.