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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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A moral conundrum
    #7699069 - 11/30/07 01:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

My grandma married a guy about 20 years ago. Their marriage lasted about 10 years and then they got divorced. My grandma got a bunch of this guy's money in the divorce settlement.

My grandma died recently and I got a small inherited retirement account thingee from her. It really isn't that much. Basically, this money is money that the ex-husband earned. I am tempted to track him down and give the money back to him. I realize that legally and morally I am well within my rights to keep this money...but I think that it's really his money because he earned it and then had it taken away from him.

Should I give him the money? I wanted to get your guy's opinion on this.


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Invisibletiny_rabid_birds
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7699091 - 11/30/07 01:43 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

depends on:

1. how much money it is.
2. how much trouble/money you'd have to go through to find him and get the money to him.
3. whether he'll even care about said amount of money.
4. a few other things i didn't feel like thinking of.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #7699121 - 11/30/07 01:48 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

tiny_rabid_birds said:
1. how much money it is.
2. how much trouble/money you'd have to go through to find him and get the money to him.
3. whether he'll even care about said amount of money.
4. a few other things i didn't feel like thinking of.




1. About $5,000.
2. I just did a search for him and found his address in 5 seconds.
3. No, he won't. He's rich.


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Invisibletiny_rabid_birds
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7699135 - 11/30/07 01:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

well do you really feel your grandmother did not deserve the money? she was married to him for 10 years. was she the primary homemaker? or did she do nothing but spend his money?

i dunno... i personally would keep it since he wouldn't really miss it at all, and it is completely legal, free and clear.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7699137 - 11/30/07 01:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I've got a solution!

Give me the money! :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinekindkesey
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7699143 - 11/30/07 01:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I'd offer it back to him...... but if he's gotta lot of loot already, he'll more than likly ask you to keep it? Just think of the gear you could buy with 5 grand!

:smile:


--------------------
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DAVID JONES where are you?


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Offlinedruqs
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: trendal]
    #7699159 - 11/30/07 01:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

what happens if you give him the money and he decides to become a pedophile?


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Offlinemrsautoman
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7699168 - 11/30/07 01:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I say keep the money.

If ex-granddad was that concerned about keeping his money he would have gotten a pre-nump. I won't even get into a discussion on whether or not spouses 'earn' settlement money from divorces. In my mind it's a case by case basis thing and I don't know the particulars of their situation.

If you're feeling philanthropic give it to someone who needs it. Find a single mom who rides the bus and buy her an old beater of a vehicle or something. You could totally change someone's life for the better.


--------------------

~I was born of a voice untimely,
the so-called echo of a man's ordure~


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #7699180 - 11/30/07 01:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

tiny_rabid_birds said:
well do you really feel your grandmother did not deserve the money?  she was married to him for 10 years.  was she the primary homemaker?  or did she do nothing but spend his money?




It's not that she didn't deserve it.  When they got married he had massive debt (even though he earned very good money).  She stuck with him through some major financial shit.  Towards the end of the marriage he became CEO of a company and they were fairly loaded.  However, she did not work.  All of the money brought into the marriage was through his effort.

I have a strong feelings when it comes to economic effort.  I think that people should be able to keep what they have earned.  That is why I dislike excessive governmental taxation and it is why I dislike divorces where the courts take a bunch of somebody's assets and give them to someone else. 

I have a profound belief that this money is not mine nor was it really my grandmother's.  I think that it's his.  :shrug:


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: trendal]
    #7699187 - 11/30/07 02:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
I've got a solution!

Give me the money! :wink:




I've got a solution too!  How about you kiss my ass?  :smirk:  :lol:


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Offlinerobbyberto
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7699234 - 11/30/07 02:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Try giving it to the guy and if he lets you keep it then donate to a good charity.


--------------------
“People say having kids is life changing, well that doesn’t necessarily mean a good thing, does it? I could take one of my legs off. That would change my life.” -Karl Pilkington



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: robbyberto]
    #7699240 - 11/30/07 02:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

robbyberto said:
Try giving it to the guy and if he lets you keep it then donate to a good charity.




That's actually a good idea. I think that's what I'll do.


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Offlinerobbyberto
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7699246 - 11/30/07 02:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Glad I could help. Tell us what you end up doing.


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“People say having kids is life changing, well that doesn’t necessarily mean a good thing, does it? I could take one of my legs off. That would change my life.” -Karl Pilkington



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OfflineTangerines
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: robbyberto]
    #7699267 - 11/30/07 02:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

KEEP IT!!! obviously your gma wanted you to have it. Why give it back to a rich old guy who will die soon anyways?


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OfflineVisionsToReality
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: Tangerines]
    #7699279 - 11/30/07 02:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Oh my fictional baby jesus, how can you even contemplate this if he is rich?


--------------------
Life is one big road with lots of signs,
So when you're ridin' through the ruts,
Don't you complicate your mind.

Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy
Don't bury your thoughts,
Put your vision to reality, yeah!


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: VisionsToReality]
    #7699458 - 11/30/07 03:06 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Whether she actually earned it through working, the court awarded her the money. It is her money legally, and in the eyes of the court.

But in reality, it's only 5k, not really enough to ruffle anyone's feathers.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineStreetFreak
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: badchad]
    #7699475 - 11/30/07 03:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Your grandma wanted you to have it, you should use it for something constructive in YOUR life.


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InvisibleCherryBomM
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7699516 - 11/30/07 03:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Interesting.

I probably would have just kept it and paid off some debts...but I am poor. I think it's pretty commendable of you to consider donating $5000 to charity. That's a fuckload of money to some people.

What kind of charity would you donate to?


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7699532 - 11/30/07 03:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

If it were me I'd have no qualms about keeping it. I'd finish off my student debt with it.

If you don't feel like you should have it, give it to a charity. It would do people in need more good that it would somebody with lots of money already.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: CherryBom]
    #7699550 - 11/30/07 03:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You know...the more I think of it the less likely I am to donate it to charity. I really think that a lot of people who receive charity and who can't make it on their own are often parasites and leeches who mooch off of other people. However, if I do end up giving it to charity then it would probably be to Iraq war vets who have lost limbs and such.

I really would prefer it if the ex-husband takes it back. But, if he doesn't take it back then the fact that my Grandmother wanted me to have it makes me somewhat inclined to keep it.

I dunno. We'll see if he answers my letter.


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OfflineTangerines
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7699554 - 11/30/07 03:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I am in debt Randal....


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InvisibleCowgold
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7699564 - 11/30/07 03:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I wouldn't because if marriage entitles one to half, then 10 years definitely qualifies. AND if you ever get married and divorced you can pay it forward.


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OfflineHyper_Panda_GO
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7699565 - 11/30/07 03:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

No


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There is no valid reason you should be reading this


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InvisibleCowgold
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7699578 - 11/30/07 03:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Another thing to consider... You paid an inheritance tax on that money and if you give it back to him... he'll pay a gift tax. By the time it's said and done, the government would've recieved over half.


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OfflineTangerines
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: Cowgold]
    #7699583 - 11/30/07 03:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

gift tax? If you give people money there is a tax on it? How would they find out? How much does it have to be for their to be said tax?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: Cowgold]
    #7699585 - 11/30/07 03:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Because it was an inherited IRA there was no tax. Also, the Gift Tax applies to $10,000 and over I believe.


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InvisibleCherryBomM
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: Tangerines]
    #7699588 - 11/30/07 03:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

What?! Gift tax? I've never heard such bullshit in my life! Is that an american thing?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: CherryBom]
    #7699595 - 11/30/07 03:43 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

CherryBom said:
What?! Gift tax? I've never heard such bullshit in my life! Is that an american thing?




Unfortunately, yes. It is bullshit.


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InvisibleCowgold
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7699610 - 11/30/07 03:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Still... There's no moral obligation. Even prenuptual agreements are null and void after a given period of time. (5 years?)

Regardless of reasons for the marriage, 10 years consitutes half no question.



You watch Weeds or something? What made this come up?


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InvisibleCherryBomM
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7699614 - 11/30/07 03:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Why don't you invest it? Think of the future!


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InvisibleCowgold
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: CherryBom]
    #7699621 - 11/30/07 03:48 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

If there wasn't a gift tax, it would be too easy to cheat your taxes.


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Invisiblejewunit
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7699625 - 11/30/07 03:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Quote:

tiny_rabid_birds said:
1. how much money it is.
2. how much trouble/money you'd have to go through to find him and get the money to him.
3. whether he'll even care about said amount of money.
4. a few other things i didn't feel like thinking of.




1.  About $5,000.
2.  I just did a search for him and found his address in 5 seconds.
3.  No, he won't.  He's rich.




And you're only putting up $50 for the no orgasm challenge?
:crankey:


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InvisibleCowgold
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: jewunit]
    #7699631 - 11/30/07 03:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jewunit said:
Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Quote:

tiny_rabid_birds said:
1. how much money it is.
2. how much trouble/money you'd have to go through to find him and get the money to him.
3. whether he'll even care about said amount of money.
4. a few other things i didn't feel like thinking of.




1.  About $5,000.
2.  I just did a search for him and found his address in 5 seconds.
3.  No, he won't.  He's rich.




And you're only putting up $50 for the no orgasm challenge?
:crankey:




I bet a big tittied stripper gets it now.  :tongue:


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: CherryBom]
    #7699642 - 11/30/07 03:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

CherryBom said:
Why don't you invest it? Think of the future!




Bah...I'm going to go out young.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: Cowgold]
    #7699664 - 11/30/07 03:58 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cowgold said:
What made this come up?




I have a deep-seated belief that what a person earns through their own efforts should not be taken away from them and that nobody has claim to the fruits of another's labor.


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InvisibleRipple
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7699867 - 11/30/07 04:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Don't be silly

Grandma got the money legally it's not like she robbed a bank.


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The bus came by and I got on that's when it all began!



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Offlinecircularvortex
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: Ripple]
    #7699891 - 11/30/07 04:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You can have up to $10,000 in "gifts" per year tax free. After that I believe you pay normal income tax.

Honestly, I don't see why you would want to give the money back to him. 10 years cooking, cleaning, etc (especially in financial hard times) entitles you to some money. I could see if he was rich when they got married it being a diff situation tho...

I would keep the money for sure.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, federal, or fashion police laws. All posts are works of fiction.

For well you know that its a fool who plays it cool
By making his world a little colder.

Under closer inspection I realised it was a funky ball of tits from outer space.



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InvisibleCherryBomM
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: Ripple]
    #7700398 - 11/30/07 06:58 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ripple said:
Don't be silly

Grandma got the money legally it's not like she robbed a bank.




Simple logic holds the most truth.


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InvisibleRipple
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: CherryBom]
    #7700607 - 11/30/07 07:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

CherryBom said:
Quote:

Ripple said:
Don't be silly

Grandma got the money legally it's not like she robbed a bank.




Simple logic holds the most truth.




How true!;)


--------------------
The bus came by and I got on that's when it all began!



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Invisibletiny_rabid_birds
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7700613 - 11/30/07 07:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Quote:

Cowgold said:
What made this come up?




I have a deep-seated belief that what a person earns through their own efforts should not be taken away from them and that nobody has claim to the fruits of another's labor.




i'm really going to have to disagree with you on this as being the end-all-to-be-all answer in financial matters. in the cases of marriages, it is often better for the family when the spouses partake in role specialization - meaning one earner and one homemaker (regardless of gender) especially if kids are involved. i'm guessing kids were not involved in this case since you're like mid twenties yourself.

regardless, she was the homemaker. she provided mental/emotional/physical support for this guy through his hard times. she was most certainly entitled to alimony to help her financially deal with reentering the labor market, maintaining her lifestyle, etc. it was her money, money she deserved for helping him get to where he did. in my humble opinion, it seems it would be a bit insulting to her memory to suggest otherwise.

i'm not judging though. these are just my personal opinions on the matter of alimony and divorce settlements.


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Offlinekriminalelement
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Re: A moral conundrum [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #7700906 - 11/30/07 09:29 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

It's not that she didn't deserve it. When they got married he had massive debt (even though he earned very good money). She stuck with him through some major financial shit. Towards the end of the marriage he became CEO of a company and they were fairly loaded. However, she did not work. All of the money brought into the marriage was through his effort.

I have a strong feelings when it comes to economic effort. I think that people should be able to keep what they have earned. That is why I dislike excessive governmental taxation and it is why I dislike divorces where the courts take a bunch of somebody's assets and give them to someone else.

I have a profound belief that this money is not mine nor was it really my grandmother's. I think that it's his. :shrug:




You should consider a few factors:

1. When two people are married and agree to live in a state of communal finance, that is community property. What belongs to one belongs to another. This is because they are immediate family. Unless there is an agreement to live on separate finances, the finances of one member become the finances of all.

2. Your grandmother married a man in deep debt. She stuck by him and supported him, probably kept up his house for him, and helped him in social situations. The job of the homemaker is arduous, and in your grandmother's time, most likely labor-intensive. Did they have any children? This could be considered work as well.

3. There are a couple inhibiting factors contributing to your grandmother's work situation:

a. women were OUTRIGHT DISCOURAGED from working. A woman who worked was not only considered unconventional, but she would also have been emasculating her husband by taking a job. Consider the social situations surrounding her lifestyle and ask yourself if this would have been a problem in the marriage, had she decided to go against social norms and work, thereby admitting to the world that her husband was not man enough to provide for his family.

b. Women were OUTRIGHT BARRED from many professions, for a variety of reasons.
i. women were discouraged/denied from pursuing higher education opportunities. Many colleges, besides high-ranking all-girls schools like wellesley, denied women entrance to institutions of higher learning. Families did not often financially support a woman who wanted to attend a university. Their lack of a college degree barred them from many jobs.
ii. even women with higher education were not permitted to hold positions that were considered "men's jobs" until the 1960's at the EARLIEST. To get a job in your degree field as a woman would have been a miracle. The only acceptable careers for a woman in your grandmother's time would have been a teacher, a nurse, or a secretary (adjusted for inflation, none of these jobs payed NEARLY as well as they do today).

When Ruth Bader Ginsberg graduated from an Ivy League University with a law degree, she applied for jobs in law firms. The men laughed and offered her a job as their secretary, if she would be willing to dress a little "friendlier".

C. Given the relative earning power of your grandmother and the social stigma attached to women achieving degrees in higher education and entering the work force, it would have been remarkable if she had decided to work just to make a point of 'contributing' to the household in a non-conventional sense. However, there were probably financial considerations in a cost-benefit analysis of her earning power. Because her husband was high income and she was legally married to him, she would have been taxed in the same income bracket that he was. If she got a low-paying job, she would literally be working for nothing, as her entire yearly salary would most likely be absorbed into the taxes the family payed. She might slightly defray the cost of these taxes, but it is discouraging to know that you will work hard all day and never see a paycheck, as it will all go to the government.

My mom has this same problem. She works and works, sometimes 16 hour days, and barely gets a paycheck.

I would take all of these social and financial situations into account before you make any judgements about whether or not your grandmother truly "earned" this money, or whether it was feasible/financially viable for her to seek employment in a dead end job with no prospects and hoards of businessmen pinching your butt every time you walk by their desks. I think that for the time she lived in, your grandmother probably earned this money, and deserved to keep it.

If you still don't want the $5,000, in light of the circumstances of your grandmother's employment situation, I would donate the money to a charity sponsoring young girls from impoverished areas who wish to attend a university. Then maybe you'll be solving the problem of women's inequity in the job market and encouraging more women to contribute to the household with upwardly-mobile, dynamic careers, and not just slaving away as a maid or a secretary with an ass that feels like a pin cushion.


--------------------
While there is a lower class, I am in it
While there is a criminal element, I am of it
While there is a soul in prison, I am not free.

Eugene V Debs


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InvisibleCherryBomM
Yoga Gypsy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 12/26/98
Posts: 11,177
Loc: Ontario
Re: A moral conundrum [Re: kriminalelement]
    #7701046 - 11/30/07 10:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

What generation are you living in? We're not fighting for equality anymore...we've won.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: A moral conundrum [Re: CherryBom]
    #7701200 - 11/30/07 10:43 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Hey! You're not allowed on the computer, Bom. Who let you out of the kitchen? Get back to work toots.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: A moral conundrum [Re: kriminalelement]
    #7701227 - 11/30/07 10:48 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Well, I disagree with some of what you said but I agree with some of your points. Thanks for such a long and detailed response.

The more I think about it the more I think that I should just keep it. It can be argued that he knew what he was getting into legally when he decided to marry. He had to have known that half or more of his assets could be taken away from him if they divorced. My grandmother didn't raise any children with him but she did stick with him for ten years.

I dunno. As I said, this is a big moral conundrum.


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