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InvisibleFecalDildo
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Re: Club Drugs Inflict Damage Similar To Traumatic Brain Injury [Re: Noviseer]
    #7708269 - 12/02/07 08:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Noviseer said:


MDMA is not a form of methamphetamine.




You're joking right? What does the MA in MDMA stand for???

You're a regular genius.


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OfflineF1234K
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Re: Club Drugs Inflict Damage Similar To Traumatic Brain Injury [Re: FecalDildo]
    #7708781 - 12/02/07 10:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

FecalDildo said:
Quote:

Noviseer said:


MDMA is not a form of methamphetamine. 




You're joking right?  What does the MA in MDMA stand for???

You're a regular genius.




methylenedioxymethamphetamine is a mouthfull. He probably just forgot :wink:


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Im Not Living, Im Just Killing Time


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Club Drugs Inflict Damage Similar To Traumatic Brain Injury [Re: F1234K]
    #7708895 - 12/02/07 10:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

It is a completely different substance with differant effects. Just because it has methamphetamine in the name doesn't mean that MDMA IS a form of meth. MDMA has as much in common with Mescaline and Sudafed.

It's like saying sulfer-dioxide is a form of carbon-dioxide becase they share a few of the same molecules.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Club Drugs Inflict Damage Similar To Traumatic Brain Injury [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #7708929 - 12/02/07 10:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Ask Dr. Shulgin Online

ARCHIVE: February 15, 2001

MDMA versus Methamphetamine

Dear Dr. Shulgin:

Is MDMA the same as methamphetamine? Is it a type of methamphetamine?

--Michael


Dear Michael:

MDMA is totally different from methamphetamine. It is a compound that is build upon the basic carbon skeleton of methamphetamine (this is the "MA" in the code name), but there has been added to the structure two additional oxygen atoms and another carbon atom. This is the methylenedioxy ring, and this is the "MD" in the name.

The prototypic nucleus for these, and many other structurally related compounds, is the term "amphetamine." This word has
three entirely separate meanings, depending on who is defining it.

To the law enforcement crowd, "amphetamines" are most of the drugs that are entered in the Controlled Substances Act under the heading "stimulants," regardless of their structure or pharmacology.

To the pharmacologists, "amphetamines" are a class of compounds that act on the central nervous system to cause eye-dilation, increased wakefulness and loss of appetite.

To the chemist, "amphetamines" are chemicals that contain the carbon skeleton of alpha-methyl-beta-phenethylamine.

-- Dr. Shulgin


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineDadeMurphy
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Re: Club Drugs Inflict Damage Similar To Traumatic Brain Injury [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #7709160 - 12/02/07 11:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Really, I wish people could get this through their heads...the presence of some substructure in a molecule does not speak in any easily predictable way to the properties of a more complex molecule.

Methamphetamine and MDMA are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CHEMICALS, with different physical, chemical and pharmacological properties (and therefore different toxicities).

Now, SAR studies can outline the reasons why adding, removing, or modifying various chemical moieties leads to modified activity but that is outside the scope of this discussion. The point is that observations made about methamphetamine do not generalize to MDMA.

Think of it this way, all of the phenethylamines and tryptamines (MDMA, speed, DMT, psilocybin, mescaline...and on and on...) contain a benzene substructure. Does that mean they are all carcinogenic solvents like benzene? Absolutely not!

So all you people out there...stop pointing out the "methamphetamine" part of the name "methylenedioxymethamphetamine" as if that says something about MDMA's effects/risks/toxicities.

Edit: Sorry if I'm just reiterating what others have said but I've been noticing alot of posts like that lately and it is sort of a pet peeve I guess.


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Edited by DadeMurphy (12/02/07 11:49 PM)


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InvisibleRobo
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Re: Club Drugs Inflict Damage Similar To Traumatic Brain Injury [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #7710633 - 12/03/07 12:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


It is a completely different substance with differant effects.




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InvisibleFecalDildo
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Re: Club Drugs Inflict Damage Similar To Traumatic Brain Injury [Re: DadeMurphy]
    #7712050 - 12/03/07 05:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You can say what you want but that methamphetamine structure is still there at the heart of MDMA so they are not two completely different things. I'm not saying they act the same way or have the same effects but you cant have MDMA without the methamphetamine structure.


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OfflineDadeMurphy
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Registered: 01/29/03 Happy 21st Shroomiversary!
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Re: Club Drugs Inflict Damage Similar To Traumatic Brain Injury [Re: FecalDildo]
    #7712502 - 12/03/07 07:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You're just talking semantics. What's relevant is that statements/claims about methamphetamine do not as a rule generalize to MDMA.


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InvisibleRobo
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Re: Club Drugs Inflict Damage Similar To Traumatic Brain Injury [Re: FecalDildo]
    #7712507 - 12/03/07 07:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Sure it has the MA part, but it also has the MD. Totally different molecule.

Think table salt.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Club Drugs Inflict Damage Similar To Traumatic Brain Injury [Re: FecalDildo]
    #7714053 - 12/04/07 05:52 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

You can say what you want but that methamphetamine structure is still there at the heart of MDMA so they are not two completely different things.




It depends upon how you look at it. Using clothing as an example, it is obvious that a cotton hat and cotton jeans are two very different bits of clothing even though both are made from cotton. What really matters is the context. If we are talking about raw materials, then yes, a cotton hat and cotton jeans are more or less the same. If we are talking about the effects of wearing the clothing, then a cotton hat is completely different than cotton jeans.

In the case of drugs, in the context of the research, they are claiming that the drugs are more or less the same because they have a few structural features in common, but they are ignoring that the drugs are completely different as far as the human body is concerned.

Another example is ephedrine versus pseudo-ephedrine. They are completely identical to one another except for the direction of one chemical bond, yet their effects on the human body is very different. The difference between methamphetamine and methylenedioxymethamphetamine is much larger than the direction of a single chemical bond. To consider these two drugs the same demonstrates a gross lack of understanding basic chemistry, or an attempt to mislead people that haven't studied chemistry.

Pseudo-ephedrine has a closer structure to methamphetamine than MDMA (methylenedioxymethamphetamine), yet you don't hear people making a fuss over cold medicine (other than restricting it because it is easy to turn it into meth).


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleMrKite1
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Re: Club Drugs Inflict Damage Similar To Traumatic Brain Injury [Re: Noviseer]
    #7714131 - 12/04/07 07:03 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

You would NEVER give a meth addict a prescription for meth! Maybe you're confusing meth with methadone. Opiate addicts are prescribed opiates to help wean or maintain, due to the intense physiological effects of opiate withdrawal. Amp addicts, on the other hand, are treated with benzos and SSRIs, but NEVER EVER would you give a speed freak speed to help them quit.




I've heard of some addiction specialists giving methamphetamine addicts prescription methamphetamine maintenance therapy.


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When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Club Drugs Inflict Damage Similar To Traumatic Brain Injury [Re: MrKite1]
    #7717914 - 12/04/07 11:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

> I've heard of some addiction specialists giving methamphetamine addicts prescription methamphetamine maintenance therapy.

Sounds like a good idea to me, take the criminal element out of it.

Modafinil has been said to help meth addicts.


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OfflineZeroBoyWD
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Re: Club Drugs Inflict Damage Similar To Traumatic Brain Injury [Re: MrKite1]
    #7718906 - 12/05/07 09:28 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MrKite1 said:
Quote:

You would NEVER give a meth addict a prescription for meth! Maybe you're confusing meth with methadone. Opiate addicts are prescribed opiates to help wean or maintain, due to the intense physiological effects of opiate withdrawal. Amp addicts, on the other hand, are treated with benzos and SSRIs, but NEVER EVER would you give a speed freak speed to help them quit.




I've heard of some addiction specialists giving methamphetamine addicts prescription methamphetamine maintenance therapy.




Um.... I can't speak for other meth addicts, but for me, I know for a fact that it wouldn't work. Thats the same as trying to ween yourself off of it. And if you have a whole bottle of it......


--------------------
I'm done trying to be "right." I want the exchange of ideas to be the currency of my economy. If you have something I can use, great. I'll try it out. If you think my methods are shit, great. Don't use it. We all want yields.



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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Club Drugs Inflict Damage Similar To Traumatic Brain Injury [Re: ZeroBoyWD]
    #7725904 - 12/06/07 07:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

This article is based on junk science or taken way out of context.

Dumping a pile of meth and/or MDMA on a petri full of cells and then microarraying them on a gene chip really has nothing whatsoever to do with traumatic brain injury.

They can't even seem to tell the difference between meth and MDMA. And perhaps the biggest flaw in the articles reasoning is the actual traumatic brain injury! With drugs there is no big hole in your head or mashed brains. Just because some genes are regulated in the same way really has no practical bearing on the issue.

They could have just as easily said that MDMA activates brain repair mechanisms in the same way as a traumatic brain injury. That conclusion is more valid than theirs and bears more resemblance to the actual science done.

What they're really looking at is repair mechanisms, injury response, and gene regulation. But they are trying to spin it like inflammation and repair from an injury is as bad as the injury itself which makes no sense at all.

They are doing the same thing that they've already tried to demonize MDMA. First they (NIDA) tried to say X was bad because near lethal dosages in primates caused some neuronal death. When that didn't fly they dropped to the molecular level and tried to claim that certain receptors were destroyed by MDMA. Then they tried PET scans on long-term polydrug users. Now they're dropping all the way down to gene regulation to try and claim danger.

If they really wanted to find the answer it's simple enough to do a real study and try to relate a specific drug to a specific impairment. They haven't done that.

The best they've come up with is showing very minor impairment on complex tests using heavy, long-term, polydrug users. And that's still junk science! It doesn't take a large government grant to figure out that a mental reject that uses every drug they can get their hands on and uses as much of it as often as they can is going to have some mental impairment, that's just common sense. Just the mental impairment caused from vegging out in altered states for a majority of your life is enough to account for their results, with or without MDMD being a factor.


-FF


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