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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Society hates smart people [Re: nobhdy] * 1
    #7700157 - 11/30/07 05:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I don't recall even knowing the word niggardly before the debacle in congress some time ago, but whatever... I'd imagine most in the US who weren't under a rock during that period know what it means.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Society hates smart people [Re: BrAiN]
    #7700317 - 11/30/07 06:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BrAiN said:
Quote:

badchad said:

Can you just give me an example of a highly intelligent person working in an occupation considered to be the "lowliest"?





Computer Programmers. We're treated like slaves by 5 different bosses who tell us all to do completely different things and then repremand us for doing what the other boss says and then repremand us for not getting our work done because we've been so god damn confused.

IMO the biggest retards are the ones that backstab the most and sabbotage people they know are smarter and worthier of higher paying jobs.... to get where they are because they know they can't compete on an even playing field. These people often succeed.

I don't think there's anyone really to blame or the gov't should do anything about it. It's a dog eat dog world and I firmly believe in Karma.

As far as doctors, lawyers, etc... These people are pretty smart..but smart but it doesn't mean they are wise. I find that the higher and more technical a degree someone has, the less common sense they have in other places. The more time you study books the less time you have at dealing with people.

It's always a trade off. If you spend all your time studying one subject (computers, how to socialize, medicine, literature, etc) your knowledge in other subjects lack. Plus "SMART" is a subjective word. Are we talking about intelligence? Wisdom? Street smarts? book smarts? etc?

I liken human development to developing a character in dungeons and dragons (yea I said it!). When you roll your dice, get your points, you have to chose where to put those points.. strength, intelligence, widsom, charisma.. the more you put into one category the more the other categories suffer... the same way with humans.

Like I said... tough call because SMART is pretty subjective.




Is that you, Dilbert?

Anyway, it seems to me it takes a different kind of "smart person" to actually join Mensa. Mensa members is a non-representative sample for the purposes of this study, i.e. Mensa membership self-selects for under-stimulated intellects. If they spent time with smart people in real life why would they join a douchy club?


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Society hates smart people [Re: Luddite]
    #7700318 - 11/30/07 06:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Luddite said:
If you have above average intelligence then you will have trouble getting along with people who are average or below average. I knew this a long time ago.




you just have drop your ego to compensate.

Quote:


If you work in a job that requires a lot of intelligence and/or education, like a college degree, you'll work around people who are smart like you and you won't be hearing stupid sex stories and other decadent BS like that




I disagree. College degree doesn't mean squat.

The topic of this thread is a bit obscure too. Society is an abstract concept - at best, describing the general population. The general population is only as smart as the dumbest person, and only has the attention span of the most impatient of the crowd.

Crowd mentality (e.g. general polls, popular opinions, riots, concerts, black friday shoppers, etc.) is not something that caters to intelligent debate. You need to use emotions and bumper sticker phrases with societies, and reasoning with individuals.

I don't see any way around it, no matter what we do with the education system.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


Edited by kotik (11/30/07 06:36 PM)


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Society hates smart people [Re: Conservationist]
    #7700351 - 11/30/07 06:43 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

They hate if you if you're clever, and they despise a fool.








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Mp3 of the month:  The Apple-Glass Cyndrome - Someday



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OfflineGnosticWarrior
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Re: Society hates smart people [Re: Conservationist]
    #7700806 - 11/30/07 09:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Intelligence is meaningless unless you act on it. Life was mean't to be a struggle, that's why no one can escape suffering to some degree. No one is going to just give you something.

I'm a Capitalist and learned about men like Warren Buffett and Eddie Lampert. They are known as capital allocators. A person like Buffett working thru conventional channels would have never been able to obtain a CEO position. He's not a Salesman. So how did he get to be a CEO of one of America's largest companies? He got in the back door by buying controlling interest in a failing textile company called Berkshire Hathaway. It's market price at the time of purchase was quantatively cheap relative to its book value. This is an example of using one's intelligence.

Not only in business but look at Martial Arts like Aikido. It was founded by Morihei Ueshiba, a small man. Talk about underdog. But he dedicated his life to his spiritual and martial practices. He became one of Japan's greatest martial artists and now his teachings have spread around the world. Do a web search to see how many Aikido dojos the are spread across the world.

Maybe one is truly not as intelligent (ability to problem solve) as he believes if one does not apply himself. If you knew better you would do better right?

As far as society goes, the masses need to start looking up to the right role models. I think a well rounded group of Buffett, Ueshiba, and balanced with some Terence Mckenna would be a good place for people to look for guidance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOy3H4yyocQ


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Offlinenobhdy
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Re: Society hates smart people [Re: GnosticWarrior] * 1
    #7701013 - 11/30/07 09:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

while i agree with you, i dont think that those two examples are in the same context. In my oppinion, intelligence is measured by the lust for knowlege, the curiosity of the world around you and the drive to understand it and make it better. I think that any person could sneak in through a back door. thats just being clever. as for the aikido(of which i am a huge fan, btw) i think that once a person fully devotes to something, resigns to the fact that this is his one lifes purose, he can do anything. creating a martial art falls into that.

but what of the musicians and artists? what about the theoretical physicists and the mathematicians? their one purpose in life is to understand their world. when the average joe wakes up in the morning and looks out his window, he sees a sprinkler running, the grass growing, a lady jogging her dog, ect. i see the way the water sticks to the grass and i wonder if when the sun rises, will it become a magnifying glass and harm the grass...or will the photosynthetic actions of the plant take a boost and grow healthier in the spot with the sprinkler...but then again where is the water coming from? it goes through a valve, from a water tower which utilizes gravity and....ect.


this is why our education system is ill equipped to handle high intelligence. they explain something, and then they leave it at that. the intelligent mind is always wondering "why?" but the system doesnt have the time to keep answering why. repetition has to be the most brutal to us. while we are wondering how ourr lesson connects with anything and everything, all our minds are being forced to do is "i before e, i before e, i before e"

you have no idea how frustrating this is, unless you have ADD like i do. its enough to want to recluse into a dream world, hence the bad grades....

however, there are those lucky few who have both intelligence, and a complete lack of any mental issues (which is rare, for some reason...perhaps humanity was never meant to become more intelligent)
these people utilize their unique minds to do extraordinary things. they become musicians, scientists, professors, writers, ect. they go to school and exced in all of societies tests.

as for the mental issues, look back in history. anyone of notable intelligence always had something "off" about them. Patton, mozart, einstein...they all showed an inhuman obsession. other people show extreme oddities bordering on autism or something similar. I have ADD myself, and the people i hang out with are society's "weirdos". the kids who doodle all class or do nothing but write stories or compose music or read books...we are weird, sure, but we think higher than those cool jocks who have society set up perfectly for them, and in the end, though we may have a higher intelligence, they are the more successful. perhaps this is why the intelligent arent being catered to as they should be. they are the "weirdos"

anyways, rambling again, so ill let someone else have the floor.


--------------------
[quote]Gumby said:
And if you are going to waste peoples time with your stupid questions, at least try to have grammar skills higher then that of a 7th grader.

READ DAMNIT! [/quote]


Edited by nobhdy (11/30/07 10:10 PM)


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OfflineGnosticWarrior
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Re: Society hates smart people [Re: nobhdy]
    #7701659 - 12/01/07 01:58 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I see your point. I have a friend, don't know if he's ADD like you but he's bipolar. He has his euhphoric and sucidal days. He was in a metal band and into sculpting, an artist. He was one of those "weirdos" you talk about. Can't hold a real job, self medicates himself with illicit drugs.

Yup, society does not understand him, bcs in school they start labeling people and maybe this is the institutional way to control people or make themselves feel better. All I know is in the grand scheme of the universe, we were all created with some talent to contribute to humanity, and if those with the money, power, recognition, etc. refuse to embrace the diversity of people, of not just external differences but mental ones too, our quality of life will not be as rich as it could be and we all suffer. Some are just numbing themselves to it and use coping techniques.

But, I believe we are all in an earth school. Here to experience suffering to learn the lessons of love and trust of the positive vibrations, and we are all just at different phases and stages of that development.

Aloha


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InvisibleOldSpice
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Re: Society hates smart people [Re: Silversoul]
    #7701703 - 12/01/07 02:33 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Fuck, man. I majored in Sociology, and half the shit we talked about in class was politics.



Society will not ever hate you for being smart...


--------------------
So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
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Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty


You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrist office:biker:


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: Society hates smart people [Re: nobhdy]
    #7701814 - 12/01/07 04:43 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You don't need a book on this subject, it's simple for anyone smart and that's given it a minute's thought:

Most people are dumb. So when someone is overtly smart, that's a threat. They will never be as smart as that person.


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Invisiblemachination
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Re: Society hates smart people [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7701823 - 12/01/07 04:55 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

depends if the individual is generating the creativity themselves, for what reasons. everyone is of equal intelligence


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"Have you not learned that your word is bond? Yes, my word is bond and bond is life, I shall give my life, before my word shall fail."


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Society hates smart people [Re: machination]
    #7701840 - 12/01/07 05:24 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

> everyone is of equal intelligence

Sorry, but I have met people much more intelligent than I am. I would agree that the standard IQ test is not a real measure of a persons true intelligence, but to say that all people are of equal intelligence is not at all accurate (by any normal definition of intelligence).


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Invisiblewps
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Re: Society hates smart people [Re: Phred]
    #7702223 - 12/01/07 10:06 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
If true, what do you suggest government should do about it? This is the Political Discussion forum, remember.





Phred




this is a classic example of government not being able to do shit. its a private business matter. And they will probably never do anything about it.

so maybe in 50 years, when private businesses have run society into the ground, people will realize that allowing corporations to control their lives is just as bad as allowing the government to do so.


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"America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve."

- Tom Morello


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Invisiblewps
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Re: Society hates smart people [Re: wps]
    #7702243 - 12/01/07 10:18 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

to the original poster:

I agree this is a huge problem in america.

The people I grew up with were all smart kids. We were the AP set, all honors. Ten years later, this group of people are almost all living below the poverty line. One is a waitress, another a gas station attendant. etc...

I think a lot of it has to do with morality. Most of these people are intelligent enough to realize that if you want to get paid big in this country, you have to fuck people over. Its just the dog eat dog narure of business. Intelligent people want nothing to do with that, so they settle for simpler lives that are in accordance with their complex understanding of morality.

Also, Human resources people are notoriously bigoted. Just because they can't discriminate against race, sex, or creed doesn't mean they won't discriminate against someone for being too smart, too liberal, too thin, too eclectic, too open-minded, etc...

but hey, thats the company's choice, right? I say, let the company's bad choices ruin them. The blacklisting of intelligence cannot continue forever without entailing some horrible disaster.


--------------------
"America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve."

- Tom Morello


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Society hates smart people [Re: wps]
    #7702254 - 12/01/07 10:23 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Sigh. The original poster's paranoid delusions lead him to believe -- with no evidence whatsoever, merely cynical speculation -- that employers prefer to hire dummies over intelligent people. Note that the sociologist who wrote the article in the "supporting" link says nothing even remotely like that. This speculation is based strictly on the original poster's worldview.

The fact of the matter is that businesses who need smart people in order to be successful hire smart people, and businesses which don't need smart people in order to be successful hire smart people and not-so-smart people -- always presuming all other things are equal. If the intelligent job applicant looks like a circus sideshow inhabitant and/or exhibits bizarre personality traits or comes across as lazy or unreliable or whatever, all bets are off.

Very VERY few business owners avoid hiring intelligent people for the simple reason that (all other things about the job applicant being equal) there is a very large upside in having smart people working for you and almost zero downside.




Phred


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Invisiblewps
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Re: Society hates smart people [Re: Phred]
    #7702270 - 12/01/07 10:33 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

wow, phred, you have a knack for stating the way things should be as if its the way they really are.

of course its only logical that businesses should hire smart people. That doesn't mean they do. There are complex psychological factors at work here that make the end result less than logical.

For instance: My mother has a master's degree in music. She works as a private voice teacher in public schools. She has tried for 20 years to get a permanent position, but she is too overqualified to get it. The person interviewing her for such a position would always be a school music director with less education than my mother. So they feel threatened by her, and try to keep her out.

Should they hire her? Absolutely! She's willing to work for peanuts and has more skill and education than anyone there! On paper, she could bury anyone with credentials. But they do not hire her, and this decision is obviously not based in logic, but irrational emotion.

I think you misunderestimate the influence of irrational human psychology in the way mundane things like getting a job work.


--------------------
"America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve."

- Tom Morello


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Society hates smart people [Re: wps]
    #7702506 - 12/01/07 11:39 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

wps said:
The people I grew up with were all smart kids. We were the AP set, all honors. Ten years later, this group of people are almost all living below the poverty line. One is a waitress, another a gas station attendant. etc...




hahahaha You have to be kidding me. All of the smart people I know (except for myself) have degrees and high paying jobs in challenging fields. All of the people I know who ended up like losers (like me) are lazy or they are dumb.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Society hates smart people [Re: wps]
    #7702548 - 12/01/07 11:53 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

No, wps, I state things as they really are. I've been working for three and a half decades now. I've been an employee, an employer, a sole business owner, a business partner, and an employee again. I know what I'm talking about when it comes to the business world.

What I said about businesses holds true. In every single business in the entire world? Of course not. There will always be businesses which are poorly run. They fail all the time. Some manage to limp along for years, but no poorly run business will succeed in the long run. And a business which would benefit from having intelligent workers which refuses to hire them is a poorly run business.

Quote:

She has tried for 20 years to get a permanent position, but she is too overqualified to get it.




Is that the only reason she hasn't got it? Are you SURE about that? Maybe she also interviews badly. Have you sat in on any of her interviews?

Quote:

The person interviewing her for such a position would always be a school music director with less education than my mother. So they feel threatened by her, and try to keep her out.




As should be apparent from my post, I was discussing the world of business, not the world of government. Public schools by definition being government enclaves, my points will not necessarily apply. What has been your mother's experience in interviews for the same position at private schools?

And of course, I need not point out that a single anecdote proves nothing one way or the other, nor need I point out that credentials =/= intelligence.




Phred


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Offlinenobhdy
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Re: Society hates smart people [Re: Phred]
    #7703049 - 12/01/07 02:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Id have to agree with phred on this one. like i said, there are those gifted people who have both high intelligence and the drive to utilize it. i would say that there is a reason that your mom isnt getting hired that you dont know about. With those kind of qualifications, its hard to refuse someone.

as for what seuss said, i completely agree. Someone may have a higher iq, but that is only a gauge on potential intelligence, what someone might be able to do, and even then, its not completely accurate. i know people with lower iq scores that are more intelligent than i am and yet some people with higher scores than me are really not very impressive.

like i said earlier, i guage intelligence by the perception and understanding of the world around you, the way you think about things, not how much of something you know.


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[quote]Gumby said:
And if you are going to waste peoples time with your stupid questions, at least try to have grammar skills higher then that of a 7th grader.

READ DAMNIT! [/quote]


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Society hates smart people [Re: wps]
    #7703293 - 12/01/07 04:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

wps said:


I think a lot of it has to do with morality. Most of these people are intelligent enough to realize that if you want to get paid big in this country, you have to fuck people over. Its just the dog eat dog narure of business. Intelligent people want nothing to do with that, so they settle for simpler lives that are in accordance with their complex understanding of morality.






That doesn't really describe me or the Russian Mafia which supposedly has a lot of people with college degrees, masters, phd's, etc.


--------------------



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Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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Offlinenobhdy
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Re: Society hates smart people [Re: downforpot]
    #7703489 - 12/01/07 04:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

honestly, getting good grades in school and getting a degree doesnt necessarily mean the guys intelligent. anyone who has work ethic can do that sort of thing.


--------------------
[quote]Gumby said:
And if you are going to waste peoples time with your stupid questions, at least try to have grammar skills higher then that of a 7th grader.

READ DAMNIT! [/quote]


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