|
RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
|
Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: fireworks_god]
#7689773 - 11/28/07 10:23 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
fireworks_god said: Anyways, yes, we have been in debt for half a century. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the ascension of the American empire, through the Cold War and into today.
These military expenditures did contribute to the debt that has accumulated at the federal level. However, the debt that has been and will be contributed by the entitlement programs (Medicare, Medicaid, etc..) is much larger than any military-related debt.
Quote:
fireworks_god said: But... then... we kind of just... stopped that (Afghanistan) altogether.... and went into Iraq instead...
American troops are still present and active in Afghanistan.
Quote:
fireworks_god said: Honestly, if you were concerned about the economy, I'd think you'd consider the fact that the best thing for the economy is to not see that (oil) crest again.
It was hoped that Iraq would become stable, the oil would start flowing again like it had when Iraq was prosperous, and that American companies would do all the pumping so that the American government could tax them ($$$) and the American consumer could get access to crude.
Unfortunately, Iraq is not stable.
|
kake
The answer to1984 is 1776.




Registered: 05/06/99
Posts: 2,782
Loc: The 66th harmonic
|
Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7692840 - 11/28/07 09:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
ZAPPAISGOD:
The economy is kicking it?
Are you fucking nuts?
Are you living in a cave?
Does 9 TRILLION dollars in debt = a good economy to you or something?
Seriously, WTF? I can't believe I'm reading this. I hate to say it, but SHUT UP.
-------------------- The answer to 1984 is 1776.
|
Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
|
Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: kake]
#7693946 - 11/29/07 08:08 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Actually, the US economy is as strong as it has ever been, by almost any measure you can think of.
Yes, it is true that there is a national debt, and that this debt in terms of absolute dollars is large. But you must also remember that the US economy is also large -- larger than any other, in fact. When you compare the US national debt to its annual GDP, you'll find it is less than that of many, MANY other countries.
That is not to say that debt is a good thing. Obviously it would be better for the government to reduce spending to the point where its outstanding debt could be reduced rather than increased. But the simple fact that the US has a national debt does not mean its economy sucks. Pretty near every country in the freaking world has a national debt.
Phred
--------------------
|
Luddite
I watch Fox News


Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
|
Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: Phred]
#7693951 - 11/29/07 08:10 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I'm getting plenty of dividends from my government bonds and they're triple A rated.
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
|
Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: zappaisgod]
#7694233 - 11/29/07 10:01 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Huh?
You were proposing that oil going up would have positive effects for the economy, as though perhaps Bush intended on doing so for that good.
Quote:
No.
Yes.
Quote:
In spite of your pessimism, the US does actually produce goods. And services. Isn't it a GOOD thing that they are more competitive?
Who knows that they will become more competitive as the dollar drops. It all lies dependent on how the dollar drops, really. I'd have to think that 2007 is a unique situation - to think that everything cycles as it always does is pretty ignorant, as it never really does.
The dollar dropping really has nothing to do with the economy and everything to do with the government's spending, which pretty much correlates with our foreign policy in regards to the dollar dropping, as it also has a lot to do with foreign perception of what is happening with America.
Quote:
Valueless? How does something become more valueless? Valueless means it is already worth nothing. Does it become worth more nothing?
Yes.
The dollar is without value, it only has value because there is perception that it has value, I could have expressed myself more effectively by stating that as people increasingly realize its valuelessness.
Quote:
Less nothing? Are you twelve?
Perhaps. Want to date?
Quote:
Foreign goods will cost more here, imports will go down, domestic production will go up. Our goods will cost less there, exports will go up, domestic production will go up.
That's pretty generalized and formulaic. The market and the globe are much more dynamic, and you can't simply take the dollar into account. The specific nature of how it will play out makes the difference between an easy transition and a depression, I'd have to think. No matter what, its a risky game, one that we wouldn't have to play if we were smarter.
Dollar, debt, gold, oil.
Quote:
Dump the dollar? Where? The Thames? The Seine? The Yangtze? Come of the ledge, grasshopper.
Into the Boston Harbor on the 16th.
Quote:
No
Yes.
Quote:
Probably more of a factor than Iraq, which I believe has just announced that they will be reaching their OPEC quota this year.
This clearly isn't about fufilling a quota. American presence in the Middle East and the rising tensions is clearly playing hell with it.
Are there other factors? Certainly. I don't think it is unreasonable to proclaim that the War in Iraq and the reverberations of our presence there constitutes causation of oil prices.
Quote:
At any rate, a stable Iraq, and we are winning big time, is an investment in the future.
"Winning big time"? Substantiation?
Iraq was stable before we went in. Of course, then Saddam was talking about doing business with the euro and not the dollar, and look what happened to him.
Quote:
You've heard of the concepts "future" and "investment" haven't you?
Yes, but only in terms of dropping our empire. Of course, I'm sure the neocons consider taking action that proliferates the amount of terrorists as investing in a future of having a war on terrorism, with which civil liberties and an extended centralization of power will flourish. A police/military state doesn't sound intriguing to me when I think of the future, nor does Hillary's welfare state.
Quote:
OK. Not sure of your point or if you have a coherent one but I don't care, homey.
Allow me to clarify. There is a distinct difference between that of holding an office as a representative, and actually being a representative.
When a politician that wishes to spy on my usage of the internet or what I do with my money tells me that they are representing my interests, for example, they don't actually represent my interests. But yet, clearly, they can be elected to a position wherein they are given the title of representative.
Quote:
That you are ensconced in an intellectually incestuous cocoon of like minded proles.
Yes, but you haven't demonstrated the point, merely asserted it.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
|
Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7694249 - 11/29/07 10:08 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
RandalFlagg said: 9/11 changed things.
It didn't change anything regarding 9/11. For example, the international coalition and support he said was not there for Baghdad last time around, was there for pursuing the terrorists. Once again, it really wasn't there for Iraq, quite possibly because Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, or terrorism....
Quote:
Also, the coming energy crisis helped to change his mind I'm sure.
I'm sure the "energy crisis" was known in '94 as well, and I'm certain that Cheney's mind "didn't change". The only thing that changed was what he said at one date compared to another. That is politics for you. It is the same thing for Mitt Romney... Hillary Clinton... mostly anyone, with the exception, of course, for Ron Paul.
Quote:
Are you referring to Cheney being tied to Halliburtion?
No, I'm referring to being more interested in personal gain, in general, than for the reality of a situation, for the real interests of the American people and the country's well-being, and, not to mention, the framework within which government was intended to exist.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
|
Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7694316 - 11/29/07 10:28 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
RandalFlagg said: These military expenditures did contribute to the debt that has accumulated at the federal level. However, the debt that has been and will be contributed by the entitlement programs (Medicare, Medicaid, etc..) is much larger than any military-related debt.
This is true, and it is a concern of staggering importance. The costs of maintaining and expanding our military empire, as well as the threats it poses to our national defense and security are, nonetheless, serious concerns as well.
Quote:
American troops are still present and active in Afghanistan.
In which capacity, exactly? We have no real focus on pursuing those responsible and bringing them to justice, or else it would be evident. Afghanistan is a military base now, nothing more.
Quote:
It was hoped that Iraq would become stable, the oil would start flowing again like it had when Iraq was prosperous, and that American companies would do all the pumping so that the American government could tax them ($$$) and the American consumer could get access to crude.
Of course that was hoped. That's the whole point of expanding an empire, after all. Why should we respect the sovereignity of other nations, after all? Global hegemony is not sustainable.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
|
Re: A Surprising Moment Of Insight From Cheney [Re: fireworks_god]
#7695358 - 11/29/07 03:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Huh?
You were proposing that oil going up would have positive effects for the economy, as though perhaps Bush intended on doing so for that good.  No I wasn't. I stated that it is best that the market set the price. You made some non sequitur about BUUUUUUUSH starting the war "Ahh, so the Iraqi War was Bush's noble attempt to bring the free market to seek out sustainable energy?" Bush derangement syndrome
Quote:
No.
Yes. My "no" was in response to this that you said "The market set that price directly because of American foreign policy." There are myriad factors in the price of oil. I suppose you think the pipeline explosion today was American Foreign Policy. Simple people look for simple explanations
Quote:
In spite of your pessimism, the US does actually produce goods. And services. Isn't it a GOOD thing that they are more competitive?
Who knows that they will become more competitive as the dollar drops. It all lies dependent on how the dollar drops, really. I'd have to think that 2007 is a unique situation - to think that everything cycles as it always does is pretty ignorant, as it never really does.
Except when it does, which is always. What basis do you have to support your ludicrous assertion that 2007 is somehow unique.
The dollar dropping really has nothing to do with the economy and everything to do with the government's spending, which pretty much correlates with our foreign policy in regards to the dollar dropping, as it also has a lot to do with foreign perception of what is happening with America.
Domestic spending in the US far outstrips any Defense spending. And this is just dumb "The dollar dropping really has nothing to do with the economy".
Quote:
Valueless? How does something become more valueless? Valueless means it is already worth nothing. Does it become worth more nothing?
Yes.
The dollar is without value, it only has value because there is perception that it has value, I could have expressed myself more effectively by stating that as people increasingly realize its valuelessness.
Just nonsense
Quote:
Less nothing? Are you twelve?
Perhaps. Want to date?
We can play hide the action figure
Quote:
Foreign goods will cost more here, imports will go down, domestic production will go up. Our goods will cost less there, exports will go up, domestic production will go up.
That's pretty generalized and formulaic. The market and the globe are much more dynamic, and you can't simply take the dollar into account. The specific nature of how it will play out makes the difference between an easy transition and a depression, I'd have to think. No matter what, its a risky game, one that we wouldn't have to play if we were smarter.
Nobody's playing nothing and there is no reason to worry.
Dollar, debt, gold, oil. 
The US debt is at fairly consistent historic levels, neither exceptionally high nor low. Since you keep babbling about the war cost, what about the fact that the total war cost is about 5% of the debt? cost of war so far $456B http://www.nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=155&Itemid=107 National debt $9.1T http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/ The Iraq war is by far our biggest "foreign policy" expense and yet you think that this 5% is what's driving the dollar down. NOTHING to do with the economy. Which is quite good anyway.
Quote:
Dump the dollar? Where? The Thames? The Seine? The Yangtze? Come of the ledge, grasshopper.
Into the Boston Harbor on the 16th.
Quote:
No
Yes.
Quote:
Probably more of a factor than Iraq, which I believe has just announced that they will be reaching their OPEC quota this year.
This clearly isn't about fufilling a quota. American presence in the Middle East and the rising tensions is clearly playing hell with it.
There were no tensions in the Middle East with Saddam Hussein invading countries left and right?
Are there other factors? Certainly. I don't think it is unreasonable to proclaim that the War in Iraq and the reverberations of our presence there constitutes causation of oil prices.
Quote:
At any rate, a stable Iraq, and we are winning big time, is an investment in the future.
"Winning big time"? Substantiation? 
Read a newspaper, even the NYTimes has started to figure it out
Iraq was stable before we went in. Of course, then Saddam was talking about doing business with the euro and not the dollar, and look what happened to him.
Stable? Stable and Hussein should not be included in the same sentence. Saddam invaded Kuwait. Look what happened to him. This is Alex Jones quality stuff f_g
Quote:
You've heard of the concepts "future" and "investment" haven't you?
Yes, but only in terms of dropping our empire. Of course, I'm sure the neocons consider taking action that proliferates the amount of terrorists as investing in a future of having a war on terrorism, with which civil liberties and an extended centralization of power will flourish. A police/military state doesn't sound intriguing to me when I think of the future, nor does Hillary's welfare state.
There is no sign of a police state nor have I ever heard it proposed by neocons. Now a Hillary welfare state I have heard of.
Quote:
OK. Not sure of your point or if you have a coherent one but I don't care, homey.
Allow me to clarify. There is a distinct difference between that of holding an office as a representative, and actually being a representative.
When a politician that wishes to spy on my usage of the internet or what I do with my money tells me that they are representing my interests, for example, they don't actually represent my interests. But yet, clearly, they can be elected to a position wherein they are given the title of representative.
George W. Bush is the duly elected representative of the American people. That there is one or several million disgruntled people who don't like him is irrelevant to that fact
Quote:
That you are ensconced in an intellectually incestuous cocoon of like minded proles.
Yes, but you haven't demonstrated the point, merely asserted it.
We would have to hang out. I'll bring the action figure, you savage rascal.
--------------------
|
|