|
a_guy_named_ai
Stranger

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 767
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
|
Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: SoY]
#7702271 - 12/01/07 10:33 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
you are guilty of the philosophical fallacy "begging the question" AKA "circular reasoning"......Your assumption that the conclusion is true justifies your flawed reasoning used to get there.
Seriously, look it up.
You can't just throw out logical fallacies. You need to explain your arguements. I can't read your mind.
Quote:
Quote:
jonathan_206 said: If the physical universe depends on his supporting power, but is created outside of his person, then that means it is seperate.
You use an assumption as a crutch to your reasoning. That is the definition of circular reasoning, Johnny boy.
You think you have it figured out don't you? You are being hypocritical. You make an assumption that this is an assumption. You never even asked. And then you failed to explain your logic and told me to go look it up.
Do you know what faith is? Faith is the evidence of things not seen. All of the things in this world we can taste, and touch, and smell, these things are temporary. But those things that we cannot see, spiritual things, those things are eternal.
To have faith in God necessitates recognition of his spiritual nature, which is eternal. In this universe, our knowledge always comes to an end, we always seek for more. There are only two ways you can be sure about what we know in the natural world. One is to know everything, the other is to recognize God's eternal and omniscient nature.
SO with a spiritual conviction and evidence (greater than any evidence in this world can give) it convicts me that the created world reflects his spiritual nature, that God's word is true, and that the physical universe is a separate creation according to his word.
This is according to a intuitive spiritual conviction that I perceive in my "heart".
|
tsquad
Stranger

Registered: 09/18/06
Posts: 104
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
|
Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: vaportrail]
#7702291 - 12/01/07 10:40 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I suggest you guys read Maimonides' "Guide of the Perplexed"...gave me a new perspective and understanding of the Abrahamic religions.
|
shakercee
Atheistic Mystic



Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 606
Loc: Here and there
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
|
Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: Silversoul]
#7702299 - 12/01/07 10:42 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Because he created us, that's why. Does a parent have a right to throw their child in a fire because they got bad grades in school?
Well, if it were only about bad grades, but no, he is guilty of murdering and raping his classmates.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
|
a_guy_named_ai
Stranger

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 767
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
|
Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: vaportrail]
#7702306 - 12/01/07 10:44 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Separate meaning not attached to anything else.. which is a synonym of independent.. then how is it fair to say "the universe depends on God, yet it is separate from him?"
We support things that are independent of us all the time. Every time we pick up a glass of water. Every time we pick up our forks to eat dinner. Not that that's exactly how it is in the spiritual world, but to give you perspective. If it's possible for us, surely it's possible with God.God can do anything.
The distinction was between pantheism and monotheism. In Christianity, God is a Spirit and eternal. That means nothing can precede him including the material universe. The bible teaches that matter is not Spirit, but a separate creation. And I find in my own experience, that to be very true.
Edited by jonathan_206 (12/01/07 10:46 AM)
|
Kristian
Stranger

Registered: 11/15/07
Posts: 31
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
|
Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7702337 - 12/01/07 10:53 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
The beautiful thing about the nature of reality is that we can never prove or disprove God. He transcends the material. Thus the ultimate test is if we choose to have faith in God when nothing in the universe points one way or the other. That is the only way we could ever have free-will. If God revealed himself to us, we could have no choice but to acknowledge him and be with him, but as God truly loves us, he has stepped back and let it be up to us to want to be with him. He loves us so much that he does not want us to merely be like robots with no free will. This is a God I can love.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: shakercee]
#7702344 - 12/01/07 10:55 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
shakercee said:
Quote:
Because he created us, that's why. Does a parent have a right to throw their child in a fire because they got bad grades in school?
Well, if it were only about bad grades, but no, he is guilty of murdering and raping his classmates.
If God only sent rapists and murderers to hell, I don't think people would be putting up such a fuss. In this case we're talking about a father burning his child for not literally believing everything in a book that contradicts itself and goes against what science has since discovered.
--------------------
|
machination
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 705
Loc: Hringhorni
|
Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: Silversoul]
#7702375 - 12/01/07 11:02 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
dance with the devil is like god c god
-------------------- "Have you not learned that your word is bond? Yes, my word is bond and bond is life, I shall give my life, before my word shall fail."
|
Kristian
Stranger

Registered: 11/15/07
Posts: 31
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
|
Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: machination]
#7702384 - 12/01/07 11:05 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
machination said: dance with the devil is like god c god
WTF?!?!
|
shakercee
Atheistic Mystic



Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 606
Loc: Here and there
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
|
Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: Silversoul]
#7702395 - 12/01/07 11:07 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Ooops sorry, i read your post out of context.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
|
vaportrail
upandaway



Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 121
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
|
Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7702563 - 12/01/07 11:58 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
jonathan_206 said: We support things that are independent of us all the time. Every time we pick up a glass of water. Every time we pick up our forks to eat dinner. Not that that's exactly how it is in the spiritual world, but to give you perspective. If it's possible for us, surely it's possible with God. God can do anything.
The distinction was between pantheism and monotheism. In Christianity, God is a Spirit and eternal. That means nothing can precede him including the material universe. The bible teaches that matter is not Spirit, but a separate creation. And I find in my own experience, that to be very true.
I can't help feeling that a fork really isn't independent at all. Would a fork exist without man? Would the glass be there in the first place for you to pick it up, if you hadn't influenced it somehow? If we support something, then it is dependent. The question then, is whether or not we are independent from the fork? I would say yes, we are independent from the fork, but the fork is dependent on us, and we are not separate. Here I hope I've come to understand what you mean. God is independent of the material universe(not influenced by it), but the universe is irrevocably entwined with his essence, the two however, are not separate at the basic level of having a relationship exist between them.
How can God be this unchanging, uninfluenced, independent thing that he is? It reminds me of a graph, that is extrapolated to the point where you can't see any change at all. The bigger the picture, the less 'static' you will see. Is God's path the ultimate path to solidarity, clinging to the security of reliance, seeking to depend on something? I can't help the feeling that there is nothing in our world we can truly rely on, and it is not a comforting thought. I ask myself, why not submit to the idea of God? Do I not deserve to have such a comfort? Why don't I raise myself above the noise, let myself believe this unchanging truth to all things?
I've seen images of heaven and hell, and they are all too familiar to me. I see them and I think, "I know that place! I've been there before!" Because really, are they not just mental states? If that is true, I know that today, I stand somewhere between.
-------------------- and the hippos were boiled in their tanks
|
|