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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7699089 - 11/30/07 01:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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who's to say all the far out stuff aren't heavy visionary mystical experiences..?
Nobody can tell for sure.  But even if they are, they're personal heavy mystical experiences.  And it's all good as they remain private. 
It's very interesting how you stated objectively that no one can know objectively.
And then you stated out of your lack of knowledge, that if they can be known, they must be personally subjective...
It is quite clear to me that certain persons like to state everything is subjective as it suits them, and objective when it suits them.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7699444 - 11/30/07 03:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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jonathan_206 said: It's very interesting how you stated objectively that no one can know objectively.
And it's not interesting at all (I'd call it quite dull) how you fail to reason and understand what I have to say. Of course no one can know objective. This doesn't mean that I'm not entitled to my views, and the fact that it is all subjective is self implied. Show me exactly where did my statement seem to you as being told from an objective point of view?
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And then you stated out of your lack of knowledge, that if they can be known, they must be personally subjective...
Personally subjective?  Doesn't it scratch your ear? Make more sense next time.
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It is quite clear to me that certain persons like to state everything is subjective as it suits them, and objective when it suits them.
No, "when it suits them" suits those persons whose lives are not in their hands anymore, so they have to find excuses for what they do.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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vaportrail
upandaway



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Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7699467 - 11/30/07 03:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Is it just me? Or is Christianity basically a metaphorical form of buddhism?
I wouldn't put it that way, it sounds like Christianity is based on Buddhism! But yes, they overlap at the core. Just as your heart loves the same as any other, so does their religion. It's all about seeing past the veneer.
-------------------- and the hippos were boiled in their tanks
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


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Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7699477 - 11/30/07 03:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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One of the fundamental differences is Monotheism Vs Pantheism. This distinction is sometimes misunderstood, Pan Theism means All God, Mono Theism means One God. The western concepts, the "God of Abraham", the Jewish God, creates the world but is not part of it and does not enter it, and it is made very, very clear how seperate he is from the world. In Buddhism and Hinduism Sikhism Jainism most of the eastern faiths, Pantheists, All is God, God literally is the sum of the world and then some.
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


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Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: crumblebum]
#7699502 - 11/30/07 03:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I suppose I should have been a little more clear, panteism vs monotheism is often used to mean faiths that have many gods vs faiths that have a single god, and while that works, and you won't find monotheists with multiple gods (usually) most panteists, at the core, believe in a single true god who manifests in a bajillion ways. You don't HAVE to believe in multiple gods to be a pantheist
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7700089 - 11/30/07 05:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Show me exactly where did my statement seem to you as being told from an objective point of view?
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Nobody can tell for sure. 
objective statement.
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But even if they are, they're personal heavy mystical experiences. 
objective statement.
No matter what you do you cannot avoid making objective statements. You cannot assert ANYTHING AT ALL without an objective. You want to talk about dull?...
If I say anything IS this, or IS that, that is objective. Even if you state a subjective, it requires an objective before it.
SO whenever you think you're saying something completely subjective, think again, because it requires an objective before it. It's the same logical fallacy over and over and over.
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Of course no one can know objective. This doesn't mean that I'm not entitled to my views, and the fact that it is all subjective is self implied.
Your views require objectives in order to assert anything. You cannot state them as objectives, but then say it's all subjectively implied. It's either objective or not.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7700182 - 11/30/07 06:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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No matter what you do you cannot avoid making objective statements. You cannot assert ANYTHING AT ALL without an objective. You want to talk about dull?...
If I say anything IS this, or IS that, that is objective. Even if you state a subjective, it requires an objective before it.
SO whenever you think you're saying something completely subjective, think again, because it requires an objective before it. It's the same logical fallacy over and over and over.
This lacks of any coherence. With other words you said: everything you say is objective, because ______________, therefore everything is objective. The "objective" you're referring to is nothing but a mental construct, a filter. And as any filter, it makes your perception limited, therefore prejudiced. Voila subjectiveness.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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2FiNiTe
ConsideratlyKilling Me



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Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: Spiritual Seeker]
#7700342 - 11/30/07 06:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Christianity=Egyptian=Buddhism=Vedic=every other religion there is. Its simple...religion is a tool created by those in power to control those who aren't.
Spirituality is the way to go, I'd imagine if god gave us these amazing minds and brains he at least wanted us to think for ourselves.
-------------------- "Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living." General Omar N. Bradley
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: crumblebum]
#7700786 - 11/30/07 08:50 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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One of the fundamental differences is Monotheism Vs Pantheism. This distinction is sometimes misunderstood, Pan Theism means All God, Mono Theism means One God. The western concepts, the "God of Abraham", the Jewish God, creates the world but is not part of it and does not enter it, and it is made very, very clear how seperate he is from the world. In Buddhism and Hinduism Sikhism Jainism most of the eastern faiths, Pantheists, All is God, God literally is the sum of the world and then some.
Yes, actually the hebrew God does enter into it. But you are right that God is separate from this world in the sense that God is a Spirit and the physical world is not Spirit.
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I suppose I should have been a little more clear, panteism vs monotheism is often used to mean faiths that have many gods vs faiths that have a single god, and while that works, and you won't find monotheists with multiple gods (usually) most panteists, at the core, believe in a single true god who manifests in a bajillion ways. You don't HAVE to believe in multiple gods to be a pantheist
No you don't have to believe in multiple Gods to be a pantheist. But to make one thing clear. The Christian God is not compatible with pantheism. In true pantheism, "god" is personally everything, that is..the physical universe is part of his nature, not a separate creation. But in Christianity, God is personally separate from his creation, but he enters his creation and interacts with humanity.
I'd like to remind you that buddhism teaches there is no personal god. If you think they are similar, you are sorely mistaken. This is a big difference.
In buddhism, it is believed that everything is made of matter, in conformity with mechanical laws without divine intervention. Certain branches of buddhism may acknowledge the existence of god or gods; but as in the basic writings of buddhism there is no mention of a god or gods, it may fit in the category of atheistic religions that accept matter as eternal.
Edited by jonathan_206 (11/30/07 10:09 PM)
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



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Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7701005 - 11/30/07 09:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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jonathan_206 said: I said the opposite..pay closer attention
Indeed, I misread your post and am sorry. Sometimes my dyslexia causes me to bbead raackwards....
So, that aside, again I submit this to you:
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Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
--Epicurus
The concept of *hell* is flawed. A benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient being could not create such a place and *doom* certain individuals to it.
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



Registered: 06/01/06
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Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: SoY]
#7701051 - 11/30/07 10:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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jonathan_206 said: God is personally separate from his creation
How can god be separate from his creation? If you assert that there is a *god* that is the creator, that means that he is the fundamental layer reality and that everything else is only a byproduct of him. After the universe and everything is gone, what's left? God. This means that the only thing that really exists is god.
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: SoY]
#7701246 - 11/30/07 10:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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So, that aside, again I submit this to you:
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Quote: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
--Epicurus
The concept of "hell" is flawed. A benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient being could not create such a place and *doom* certain individuals to it.
First, as to the saying by epicurus. That is extremely simple minded reasoning. What if he wants to, but he wishes to allow free will for purposes of love and goodness? Or if he wishes to bring justice, but decides to be patient for his own reasons? It's simple minded it doesn't count in all the necessary factors.
As to your last statement , yes He can, and He did. People are not convicted of sin, their hearts are hardened, and they reject the concept of hell for that reason. If you reject God's righteousness and justice of course hell will seem wrong to you.
The truth is hell is just, once you consider the factors. God is an awesome, Holy God. He is eternal is nature, a most incredibly fearsome God. He has said He will not strive with man forever, and that is reasonable. Why should God put up with man? What has he done to deserve it? Why must He continue to allow man to grieve his heart for who knows how long? And God will have to bear it's rememberance forever. And it will hurt him because He loves you all. But that's not what he wants. But sinners have incited his hatred, and he holds them accountable. without a spirit, there is no sin. Therefore each spirit is held for his actions. He wants everyone to be with him. if God was not merciful, then why would he bear us for so long? It would have been just to destroy humanity for good from the beginning almost. God is reasonable. And man is unreasonable. And God has people he has waited long to live in heaven with as family in love and everlasting peace. And he's tired of hearing all the screams for justice. He's tired of all the lack of love in the world, and how little love everyone has for one another. He's tired of hate and sin, and all the hipocricy.That's not what he created us for, and he has to bear it all.
And it is just for God to reject those who have made themselves unworthy, who have rejected his call, and his salvation, and all his love and mercy and patience and goodness and all his gifts he made in the created world, and decide not put up with their selfishness and insanity.
GOD IS LOVE. And righteousness abides in love. You reject righteousness, and you reject True Love also. Man thinks he has love, but mans love is not Gods love. I have seen mans love, and it is not pure.
Now don't attack me for preaching, that's my serious answer.
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7701260 - 11/30/07 10:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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jonathan_206 said: God is personally separate from his creation
How can god be separate from his creation? If you assert that there is a *god* that is the creator, that means that he is the fundamental layer reality and that everything else is only a byproduct of him. After the universe and everything is gone, what's left? God. This means that the only thing that really exists is god.
No. Everything must ultimately depend on God. But that does not mean God cannot create anything outside of himself. But it does mean that everything must ultimately depend on him, and nothing can precede him.
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Silversoul
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Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7701297 - 11/30/07 11:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Why should God put up with man? What has he done to deserve it?
Because he created us, that's why. Does a parent have a right to throw their child in a fire because they got bad grades in school?
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: Silversoul]
#7701323 - 11/30/07 11:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Because he created us, that's why. Does a parent have a right to throw their child in a fire because they got bad grades in school?
If a son has made himself a bastard, then why should the father treat him like a son? But sinners have made themselves bastards in casting off the fathers instruction , which he has given them in their conscience, and testimonies in the created world.
Do not deceive yourself in thinking that God would hold us accountable as little children. You are not a little child, and neither am I.
A good father does not respect his son over doing what's right. A good father does the right thing no matter what.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: Silversoul]
#7701526 - 12/01/07 12:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Does a parent have a right to throw their child in a fire because they got bad grades in school?
I still have the scars. Maybe now some of you will understand why I became a grammar nazi.
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
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Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7701528 - 12/01/07 12:33 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Your post where you ask not to be attacked for preaching is a perfect example of how you are guilty of the philosophical fallacy "begging the question" AKA "circular reasoning".
You have chosen a belief. You then attempt to use *reason* to support your belief, instead of using reason to choose your beliefs. Your assumption that the conclusion is true justifies your flawed reasoning used to get there. You are wrong. That's the deal with circular reasoning...the one's who use can't tell that they do, or they wouldn't....
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jonathan_206 said: No. Everything must ultimately depend on God. But that does not mean God cannot create anything outside of himself. But it does mean that everything must ultimately depend on him, and nothing can precede him.
That's like saying that stars are separate from the universe....
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: SoY]
#7701593 - 12/01/07 01:12 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Your post where you ask not to be attacked for preaching is a perfect example of how you are guilty of the philosophical fallacy "begging the question" AKA "circular reasoning".
Please explain. I consider that complete nonsense.
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You have chosen a belief. You then attempt to use *reason* to support your belief, instead of using reason to choose your beliefs. Your assumption that the conclusion is true justifies your flawed reasoning used to get there. You are wrong. That's the deal with circular reasoning...the one's who use can't tell that they do, or they wouldn't....
no. I used reason to choose my beliefs a long time ago, and I continue to do it in the present.
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jonathan_206 said: No. Everything must ultimately depend on God. But that does not mean God cannot create anything outside of himself. But it does mean that everything must ultimately depend on him, and nothing can precede him.
That's like saying that stars are separate from the universe....
Not at all. If the physical universe depends on his supporting power, but is created outside of his person, then that means it is seperate. It's not like pantheism where the material "fabric" of the universe is indistingusihable from "gods" prsonal nature and being.
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



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Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7702112 - 12/01/07 08:59 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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you are guilty of the philosophical fallacy "begging the question" AKA "circular reasoning"......Your assumption that the conclusion is true justifies your flawed reasoning used to get there.
Seriously, look it up.
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jonathan_206 said: If the physical universe depends on his supporting power, but is created outside of his person, then that means it is seperate.
You use an assumption as a crutch to your reasoning. That is the definition of circular reasoning, Johnny boy.
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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vaportrail
upandaway



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Re: Christianity is actually right.........in a way [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7702266 - 12/01/07 10:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Actually I would say that was more of an ad hominem, he was rewording himself to explain to you what the word separate means. What I heard was "you're an idiot so I'm going to talk to you like I would a child." The funny thing is that you failed to see that, thus proving his point. 
Sorry Soy! But relax, as far as this God-Universe relationship you guys are discussing, I'm agreeing with you. Separate meaning not attached to anything else.. which is a synonym of independent.. then how is it fair to say "the universe depends on God, yet it is separate from him?"
Addressing the rest of the thread, you all seem like you're out in space somewhere. There is little understanding, but you aren't trying to understand each other anyway. "I thought we chased all you types away..?" Who is we? What are these types? Why are you regurgitating all this anti-religious sentiment? Jon was justified and modest in that subtle insult, because you keep attacking his beliefs without putting forth your own. Where are you coming from? What are you fighting for? What is your idea of God?
-------------------- and the hippos were boiled in their tanks
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