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Invisiblekake
The answer to1984 is 1776.
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10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today)
    #7692686 - 11/28/07 09:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)



Naomi Wolf, author of perhaps the most important book to be released in my lifetime, "The End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot", lectures in this video about the book, about America's current state, and about the dangers of the fascist state lurking around the corner if we don't do something now. The video is long (about 45 minutes) but absolutely worth listening to (you don't need to watch, it's just her walking around).

Here are a few reviews on the book (which I've read and highly recommend -- and for $9 you can afford to buy a few copies as Christmas gifts for fellow patriots), The End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot

“You will be shocked and disturbed by this book. Most Americans reject outright any comparison of post 9/11 America with the fascism and totalitarianism of Nazi Germany or Pinochet’s Chile. Sadly, the parallels and similarities, what Wolf calls the ‘echoes’ between those societies and America today, are all too compelling.”
—Michael Ratner, Center for Constitutional Rights

"Naomi Wolf sounds the alarm for all American patriots. We must come together as a nation and recommit ourselves to the fundamental American idea that no president, whether Democrat or Republican, will ever be given unchecked power."
—Wes Boyd, co-founder, MoveOn.org

“The framers of our Constitution fully understood that it can happen here. Patriots like Madison, Paine, and Franklin would certainly applaud Naomi Wolf and recognize her as a sister in their struggle.”
—Mark Crispin Miller, author of Fooled Again

"One of the most important books that's been written, certainly in the last decade or two, and perhaps in my lifetime."
-- Thom Hartmann, best-selling author and host of The Thom Hartmann Radio Program

“Naomi Wolf ’s End of America is a vivid, urgent, mandatory wake-up call that addresses momentous issues of tyranny, democracy, and survival.”
—Blanche Wiesen Cook, author of the three-volume Eleanor Roosevelt


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7693219 - 11/28/07 11:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I remember seeing an article that preceded the release of her book
with the 10 points.

it was a decent read.

the amazon book reviews led me to question her, but that's ad hominem;
this video is interesting.


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Edited by afoaf (11/28/07 11:56 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7693956 - 11/29/07 08:12 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Naomi Wolf is an idiot and her book is nonsensical gibberish.




Phred


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
    #7693966 - 11/29/07 08:19 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)



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InvisibleSoY
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Luddite]
    #7694104 - 11/29/07 09:17 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

phred said:
Naomi Wolf is an idiot and her book is nonsensical gibberish.





Have you even read the book?  How do you come to that conclusion?  It sounds like you have a very intelligent argument for why you disagree with her.....:whatever:


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"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
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Invisiblekake
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: SoY]
    #7694217 - 11/29/07 09:56 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Phred said,
Quote:


I am an idiot and my words are nonsensical gibberish.




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Offlined33p
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7694327 - 11/29/07 10:33 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

kake said:
Phred said,
Quote:


I am an idiot and my words are nonsensical gibberish.







You must speak good gibberish and want the ban.

If the points are the same 10 I read not long ago, I thought it was stupid. Many if not the majority could be found in any industrialized nation and for logical reason. The others were grabbing at straws.

Wake me up when we're goose-stepping.


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Invisiblekake
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7694377 - 11/29/07 10:49 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Quote:

kake said:
Phred said,
Quote:


I am an idiot and my words are nonsensical gibberish.







You must speak good gibberish and want the ban.

If the points are the same 10 I read not long ago, I thought it was stupid. Many if not the majority could be found in any industrialized nation and for logical reason. The others were grabbing at straws.

Wake me up when we're goose-stepping.




It's rather sad that a moderator can do nothing more than attack the messenger and provide no substantial argument whatsoever.
Reminds me a bit of a highschooler.

There is no substance to your argument... if you want to actually listen to the speech, and then comment on it the facts, I'd be happy to listen.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7695402 - 11/29/07 03:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Here are the asshole's 10 steps to fascism
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html

Every nation that has ever been anywhere is clearly on the path to fascism. I can't really say that she's an idiot because she makes a good living off of this shit but the people that buy her stuff are. Not my problem, she is a marginal figure at best.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: d33p]
    #7695668 - 11/29/07 05:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

can you please point to 'any industrialized nation' that has achieved the
10 points and NOT turned into a fascist state?

I imagine that your comment is much like Phred's...baseless.

If Phred actually read 'her book', I'd be shocked....at the very least he's
demonstrated the personal attacks that made up most of the negative reviews
of this book on amazon.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: afoaf]
    #7695726 - 11/29/07 05:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I posted a link to the ten points. They are so nebulous as to be universally applicably if you should so choose.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: afoaf]
    #7695734 - 11/29/07 05:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I haven't read that book of hers, no, but I've read a fair amount of her other stuff, and from that I was able to determine she's an idiot.

Amost all of the stuff discussed in her latest effort has previously been published in her other rantings. Her ten points are so broadly worded as to be useless. As others have pointed out, most if not all of those ten points can be applied to countless countries which aren't fascist.

She's just another hardcore Leftie with Bush Derangement Syndrome. Her stuff is so poorly written she couldn't even get a real publisher to bring it to press -- the company that printed this latest witless screed is one step up from a vanity press.



Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7695740 - 11/29/07 05:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Flaming is against the forum rules. Next time you do it you will be banned.



Phred


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7695803 - 11/29/07 05:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i think that if we did a poll, we'd probably find an inverse correlation between the tendency to put any stock in this kind of crap and the tendency to be ready to do anything about it if it did happen.

if you're an american and a non-felon over the age of 18, buy yourself a gun and learn how to shoot it. it's good for you.


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Invisiblekake
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: wilshire]
    #7696051 - 11/29/07 06:06 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, keep your heads in the sand fools. This country was not made for people like you.


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Invisiblekake
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
    #7696067 - 11/29/07 06:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
I haven't read that book of hers, no, but I've read a fair amount of her other stuff, and from that I was able to determine she's an idiot.

Amost all of the stuff discussed in her latest effort have previously been published in her other rantings. Her ten points are so broadly worded as to be useless. As others have pointed out, most if not all of those ten points can be applied to countless countries which aren't fascist.

She's just another hardcore Leftie with Bush Derangement Syndrome. Her stuff is so poorly written she couldn't even get a real publisher to bring it to press -- the company that printed this latest witless screed is one step up from a vanity press.



Phred




If she were a shroomerite, would that mean you'd have to ban yourself? :kingcrankey:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7696139 - 11/29/07 06:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Ok, can everyone cut down on the personalisms? Thanks. It annoys me like hell when people accuse the opposition of being blind or having their heads in the sand.

Anyway, I watched the clip and thought she brought up some compelling points, though in some cases she seemed to be reaching a bit. I disagree with the people who say that the 10 points are so vague as to apply to any country. Technically, I guess they could if you really stretched it. But whether or not America is headed towards outright fascism, I think the post-9/11 atmosphere of fear has been conducive to increased authoritarianism. If anything, she's doing a great service by showing us things to watch out for and guard against. I think a lot of that atmosphere of fear has subsided, but not to the point that politicians aren't still able to use it to implement more authoritarian measures. I see the large grassroots movement supporting Ron Paul as a good sign, as it shows that many Americans are fed up with having their privacy and civil liberties stripped from them. I think the warning signs are there, but people are waking up pretty fast, and I have faith that the current trend will subside. If we start seeing the paramilitary force she talks about, that's the point where I'd start getting really worried.


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OfflineSyle
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Silversoul]
    #7696170 - 11/29/07 06:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

fascism

Main Entry:
fas·cism Listen to the pronunciation of fascism
Pronunciation:
\ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
Date:
1921

1. often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge>


just so we are all on the same page as to what we are talking about.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
    #7696808 - 11/29/07 09:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

phred can you give an example of a country that has adopted all 10 points and is a democracy? it seems like the combination of all 10 points would technically be just a step below what syle has listed as the definition of fascism

i thought the video was interesting


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InvisibleConservationist
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7697233 - 11/29/07 11:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Nazi Germany wasn't a Fascist state... FAIL


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: afoaf]
    #7698142 - 11/30/07 09:40 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

afoaf writes:

Quote:

can you please point to 'any industrialized nation' that has achieved the 10 points and NOT turned into a fascist state?




Sigh. You surprise me, afoaf, you really do. I had you pegged as a lot more reasonable than this.

The thing is, not even Wolf claims the US has achieved these ten points, just that in her insanely broad and distorted re-definitions of commonly understood words (i.e. gulag, thug caste, etc.) the US is heading towards a road which will if left unchecked eventually get around to producing a fascist state.

But if you apply her same absurd sloppiness of terms to just about any sizeable country that has ever existed, every one of those countries will be guilty of at least a few of her ten, and most will be guilty of a majority. Some will be guilty of all. Wolf's schtick is the same as that of our most infamous female poster here in Political Discussion -- redefine words to suit your own meaning, exaggerate even that redefinition to the point of absurdity, then insist that some tangential connection to this exaggerated and redefined term is every bit as bad as the real term itself. The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

It's an infantile, puerile, not very clever, embarassingly silly and ultimately boring display of intellectual dishonesty. It's one thing to be passionate about what one perceives as the faults of those with whom one disagrees, it's quite another to indulge in hysterically inaccurate exaggerations that anyone with even a moderate grasp of current affairs can see through.




Phred


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Invisiblekake
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
    #7698170 - 11/30/07 09:49 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I see words but I don't see anything that could be actually credible about what you're saying, Phred... nor did you really answer afoaf's question with anything less than a high-nosed remark.

You make all these points but don't bother to back them up with a single fact?

You're claiming Naomi Wolf is intellectually dishonest? How exactly? What has she said that is known to be false?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7698207 - 11/30/07 10:01 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Read her Ten Points. Someone else has already provided a link to them.

When I say read them, I mean read them. Don't just pass your eyes over the marks on the screen, read the point in bold, reflect on just what the meaning is of "gulag" or "thug" or "caste" or "invoke" or "develop" or "harass" or "arbitrary" or "control" or "threaten" or "suspend". When I say reflect on the meaning of these words, I mean if necessary look them up in a dictionary or two to remind you of what they mean. I want you to understand those words the way a normal person would, not a highly partisan zealot. Words have meanings. That's why there are so many of them.

Then look at the examples Wolf gives which purport to illustrate her ten points. Compare her version of "reality" with what you already know of those same events. Note the total disconnect between the two.

When you've done that exercise, you'll see why I needn't bother to shred her gibberish point by point -- any reasonably well-informed individual can do so on his own.




Phred


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Offlined33p
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: afoaf]
    #7699460 - 11/30/07 03:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
can you please point to 'any industrialized nation' that has achieved the
10 points and NOT turned into a fascist state?

I imagine that your comment is much like Phred's...baseless.

If Phred actually read 'her book', I'd be shocked....at the very least he's
demonstrated the personal attacks that made up most of the negative reviews
of this book on amazon.




ok, ok, I wrong. The 10 points I read weren't her's, they were at least somewhat reasonable and applicable. Her's are so fucking stupid it's funny. Some of the dumbest shit I've ever read.

thanks for the laugh


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
    #7700237 - 11/30/07 06:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I guess I can understand your perspective from semantics point of view.

I agree with the general idea she posits and I don't really have any
predisposition to her work.

Maybe I'm just a sucker.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: afoaf]
    #7700270 - 11/30/07 06:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
I guess I can understand your perspective from semantics point of view.

I agree with the general idea she posits and I don't really have any
predisposition to her work.

Maybe I'm just a sucker.




You're just mad she did such a bad job trying to validate your beliefs.


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Edited by zappaisgod (11/30/07 06:21 PM)


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7700328 - 11/30/07 06:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

no, I'm just generally mad.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: afoaf]
    #7700372 - 11/30/07 06:50 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

:cool:


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7707348 - 12/02/07 04:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

IMAO..naomi wolfs analysis of the process of a fascist takeover is for the most part correct...however..she posits a level of gullibility on the part of voters that i find difficult to accept...

to be sure..some ppl really are that gullible...but wolf must nevertheless also consider the reverse scenario..where the 10 steps come into play after a "silent majority" of voters have reached a consensus for fascism...

in other words..she has not addressed whether there are more pragmatic reasons (i cant think of any) why voters would opt for a fascist state even if they dont watch faux news...


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7707574 - 12/02/07 05:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

kake said:
If she were a shroomerite, would that mean you'd have to ban yourself? :kingcrankey:




If anyone would be expected to withhold a higher standard than the rest of us, you'd expect it to be a mod. 


Edited by YidakiMan (12/02/07 05:51 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: YidakiMan]
    #7709691 - 12/03/07 05:32 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, if Naomi Wolf were a Shroomerite posting in the Political Discussion forum, clearly I would have to refrain from flaming her. But she is no more a Shroomerite than Ann Coulter or Bill O'Reilly or Rush Limbaugh or Dick Cheney... all of whom have had far worse comments made about them here in dozens (in some cases hundreds) of threads.

Why is it that only the Lefties whine when their icons are slighted? In all my years of reading this forum, I have not once seen a Rightie object to Bush or Cheney or Limbaugh being trashed, and I have certainly never seen a Rightie try to pretend that slangin' Ann Coulter or Condi Rice is somehow "flaming." Yet this is far from the first time a Leftie has gotten his knickers in a knot about anyone who dares be less than awestruck over their favorite Noam Chomsky wannabe.

Bottom line here is I broke neither forum rules nor moderator guidelines, so any further attempts to guilt trip me are a waste of keystrokes. Let's get the thread back on topic.



Phred


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Invisiblekake
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
    #7713789 - 12/04/07 01:06 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Why is it you must label me a Lefty?

What the fuck does fascism have anything to do with being politically left?

You've just proven yourself to be extremely biased and completely removed from any logical argument.

To answer your question, the reason I (not a "Lefty" for the record) griped about your post was that you simply said she was a moron, and offered no substance, no facts, no credibility. As if you're somebody worth listening to. At least I offered some content.

The reason nobody defends Bush? THEY CANT IN GOOD FAITH. At least not the ones who are somewhat coherent. Is that so hard to come to grips with?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7714167 - 12/04/07 07:27 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Why is it you must label me a Lefty?




Those who idolize Lefties are typically Lefties themselves, that's all. I'm just going with the odds. It may be that in your case you are one of the very rare individuals who idolize Lefties but are actually a Rightie, but from the tenor of your posts in this forum that's unlikely.

Naomi Wolf is a stone Lefty. Anyone who pretends otherwise is fooling themselves and nobody else. So anyone who starts a post by characterizing her latest witless screed as --

Quote:

...perhaps the most important book to be released in my lifetime...




-- can fairly be assumed to be a huge Naomi Wolf fan. Further, the reviews you post in support of your characterization are also from (surprise, surprise!) Lefties.

Quote:

You've just proven yourself to be extremely biased and completely removed from any logical argument.




You've just proven yourself to be extremely biased and completely removed from any logical argument -- by swallowing uncritically Wolf's unsabstantiated (and in most cases readily disproven) gibberish. Let's not even talk for now about the countless outside reviewers of her efforts who've skewered her delusional ramblings -- reviewers far more conversant with the issues than the regular Political Discussion posters -- just look how many members here have pegged her for what she is.

This again is another standard Lefty trait (not necessarily saying that you are a Lefty, mind you... just that the majority of Lefties exhibit the following trait) -- the tendency to watch a video, proclaim it "hugely awesome, truly important, doodz you just gotta invest an hour of your life watching this new messiah," then shit all over anyone who does watch it and says, "Meh... just more crap repackaged slightly differently". Here we have two people whose assessments of the same material differ, yet the Lefty automatically assumes the reason the other guy isn't orgasming over it is because he's "extremely biased and completely removed from any logical argument". It never occurs to the Lefty that the reason the other guy is less than enthusiastic might be that the other guy is better at detecting bullshit than the Lefty is.

Quote:

At least I offered some content.




Yes, you did. And I observed that the content you offered was gibberish from a Lefty sufferer of Bush Derangement Syndrome who couldn't figure out how to pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the sole. You want to talk about bias? Naomi Wolf is about as biased as they come. I'll admit Noam Chomsky might beat her in the bias game, but hey... Noam is the undisputed Dark Master. To even compete in the same general area as the Noamster is quite the accomplishment.



Phred


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
    #7714191 - 12/04/07 07:41 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Those who idolize Lefties are typically Lefties themselves, that's all. I'm just going with the odds. It may be that in your case you are one of the very rare individuals who idolize Lefties but are actually a Rightie




Not everything is right or left. I feel sorry for the tiny box of a world your mind inhabits.


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #7714214 - 12/04/07 07:51 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Try to imagine just how grateful I am for your sympathy.

Do you have any comments to make on the worth of Wolf's screed?




Phred


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
    #7714845 - 12/04/07 11:05 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Naomi Wolf is a stone Lefty.



Well, in that video he posted, she did emphasize the importance of the 2nd amendment. Not a typical lefty stance, although an understandable position for anyone worried about fascism.


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Silversoul]
    #7714965 - 12/04/07 11:35 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

that left/right bullshit is just that, bullshit. its fake, set up to divide people. as for fascism, we've been on the road to fascism since before ww2. for all intents and purposes we are already a fascist state. ever heard people talk about the military industrial complex? ike warned us it was taking over when he was pres. well, that's just a fancy term for fascism. honestly, talking about whether or not we are on the road to fascism is dumb. we are already there. i forget who said it, but "no person is so hopelessly enslaved as one who falsely believes he is free."


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
    #7716842 - 12/04/07 06:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Phred:

For the record, I also didn't idolize her. I'm not sure where you got that. That's two generalizations you've put on my shoulders. Enough said?

I praised her book, which is completely different, (once again the message is NOT the same as messenger, which you continue to confuse) NOR is it by any means an original point of view of Wolf's, nor does she claim it to be... it is a collection of evidence and it is presented quite well, that is why I posted this. I'm not a Wolf fan, but I think this book is remarkable. Why must I be labelled?

There is so much overwhelming evidence that the powers that be want more power, you'd have to be completely naive to believe otherwise. If you'd be a bit more objective in your argument, perhaps we could get back to the topic... but all you've done is bashed Wolf. I doubt you even listened to the content, so please stop derailing this thread until you can counter her points with verifiable facts, not opinions, please.


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7718545 - 12/05/07 06:01 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I praised her book, which is completely different, (once again the message is NOT the same as messenger, which you continue to confuse) NOR is it by any means an original point of view of Wolf's...




Of course it isn't. It is the generic default view of just about any Lefty you care to name. It's their mantra -- "Amerikka is fascist, man!"

Quote:

...it is a collection of evidence and it is presented quite well, that is why I posted this.




But that's the point. A lot of what is presented is NOT evidence, but speculation, misrepresentation, exaggeration, and outright bullshit. As for being presented quite well, you have GOT to be kidding me.

Quote:

There is so much overwhelming evidence that the powers that be want more power, you'd have to be completely naive to believe otherwise.




If true, so what? There is an enormous difference between wanting more power and actively turning one's country into a fascist state.

Look, I realize you are younger than I am, but I've been hearing this identical crap for forty fucking years now. The Leftards are always whining about how the jackboot of totalitarianism is about to descend on America's neck, but never make a peep when it ends up (as it always does) landing on the neck of some Eastern European or Asian or African or South American country instead. The fact of the matter is that the US is not an iota more fascist today than it was in 1967. As a matter of fact, it is less fascist -- as just one example, there is no longer a military draft.

Quote:

...so please stop derailing this thread until you can counter her points with verifiable facts, not opinions, please.




But that's the point, duh! As I have pointed out repeatedly, a large number of the "examples" she claims bolster her paranoid delusions are not verifiable facts at all. Or they are facts but are only very VERY tangentially related to fascism; and even then only if one strains as mightily as one can to give her the benefit of a doubt.

Look, you accuse me of not listening to her crap but you aren't reading what I write. I refer you to my earlier post re checking the definitions of "gulags", "thug", "caste", etc., then re-reading Wolf's ludicrous attempts to pass off her examples as meeting those definitions. Here, I'll even get you started -- no matter how many times the Lefties repeat their bullshit, Guantanamo Bay is not a gulag. Not even anywhere close to a gulag. It is, at worst, a detention camp for prisoners of war -- by all accounts the most luxurious such camp in all of recorded history.

See how simple that was? Now move on the next of her ten points, repeat till you reach the end.



Phred


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
    #7719071 - 12/05/07 10:30 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I don't agree with Naomi Wolf (never have) or the sentiment that America is headed towards a Fascism that was similar to the third Reich, or that Bush is anything like Hitler. Those conclusions are usually based on a watered-down understanding of history with gross exaggerations.

However I don't think that Naomi Wolf is totally off the mark. While I am not going to panic into thinking that a secret police is about to kick my door down, I do believe that we need to keep a really close eye on our government. Just because we are living in a democracy does not mean that we are safe from Fascism...Recall that government in Germany was democratic, and the nazis were voted into considerable power until they started persecuting the communists and took control of things. There is the potential for this to happen in America. Is it happening right now? I don't think so. So I don't think we need to freak out, which is my primary complaint with the message of both Naomi Wolf and the Bush administration. They get people's attention by telling them that they need to be freaked out.

If we are informed, voting, democratic, intelligent citizens who have our eyes open and aren't afraid to stand up for what we believe in it is my hope that Fascism is not in our future.


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7719120 - 12/05/07 10:44 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

How do you feel about status offenses Phred? The idea that Bush can say, "you're an enemy of the nation" without any evidence and put you in a jail cell for up to 3 years without trial.

How about unwarranted wiretapping? The NSA's mass data-duplication using AT&T that has recently been uncovered? Paramilitary forces used domestically? An endless war?


Sounds a lot like fascism to me.

Here are the 10 steps for anyone who's too lazy to listen to the speech.

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy (first it's terrorism, now it's becoming "homegrown" terrorism - there are nearly 800,000 people on the terror watch list!!! You think that's not going to quell dissent? You're dreaming.

2. Create a gulag -Guantanamo

3. Develop a thug caste -Blackwater

4. Set up an internal surveillance system - NSA & AT&T, unwarranted wiretapping

5. Harass citizens' groups - read up on the Univ. of Santa Cruz anti-war meeting that got raided by federal agents because of "terror threats" - these people were peaceful and not even borderline radical students gathering to share information. Peacefully. This is just ONE example of many many many.

6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release - You try to fly and you're on the terror list, you get taken aside, questioned, etc. etc.

7. Target key individuals - see #8

8. Control the press - It's obvious the major media is in bed with the government. They've fed us lies and slanted bullshit presented as fact for years. Everyone knows FOX news and CNN are a fucking joke... well everyone except those who live in isolation from the truth (which is an alarming # of people in this country) Look how bad FOX news tries to make Ron Paul look at every opportunity. He won their phone poll with something like %40 of callers saying he won the debate, and afterwards all the anchors tried to downplay it. I wonder what they would've said if one of their favored candidates won? Hmm...

9. Dissent equals treason "You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists" ?

10. Suspend the rule of law - Fuck the constitution, fuck civil liberties, the war on terror has given the president more power than he's ever had in the history of this country. Whether or not he's abused all of them is debatable, but he still pushes to keep them and can just as easily pass them along to the next crook.



I only provided short examples for each of these, but they are not things that happen in every country nor are they things that should be happening in OURS.


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7719176 - 12/05/07 10:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

2. Create a gulag -Guantanamo




How many US citizens have been detained there?

Quote:

3. Develop a thug caste -Blackwater




When have Blackwater been used in the US for intimidation purposes?

Quote:

9. Dissent equals treason "You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists" ?




That's not an example of treason. When was the last time a dissenting figure was convicted of treason for talking against the government?

Quote:


10. Suspend the rule of law - Fuck the constitution, fuck civil liberties, the war on terror has given the president more power than he's ever had in the history of this country. Whether or not he's abused all of them is debatable, but he still pushes to keep them and can just as easily pass them along to the next crook.




That's not even close to true. During the Civil War, Lincoln had much more power. What powers does Bush have that haven't been exercised before?

I agree with the post above mine that states that while we should always keep a watchful eye on the gov't, fear-mongering like this is pointless and no better than what you blame the gov't of doing.


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7719509 - 12/05/07 12:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
I don't agree with Naomi Wolf (never have) or the sentiment that America is headed towards a Fascism that was similar to the third Reich




well in that case..i might interest you in some beach property that i have for sale in montana...

Quote:

If we are informed, voting, democratic, intelligent citizens who have our eyes open and aren't afraid to stand up for what we believe in it is my hope that Fascism is not in our future.




unfortunately..informed..voting..intelligent citizens are not always "democratic"...naomi wolf has conveniently ignored them..instead choosing simply to call the electoral majority gullible fools...


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7719863 - 12/05/07 02:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

How do you feel about status offenses Phred? The idea that Bush can say, "you're an enemy of the nation" without any evidence and put you in a jail cell for up to 3 years without trial.




I assume you are referring to Jose Padilla. The fact that Padilla -- ONE guy -- waited substantially longer than usual for the courts to decide what to do with him says nothing about America becoming fascist.

Quote:

How about unwarranted wiretapping?




What about it? The whole NSA non-scandal has been exhaustively covered in this forum in numerous threads. Electronic surveillance of enemy communications in time of war is not only legal, but required by the US president's oath of office. Strike two.

Quote:

The NSA's mass data-duplication using AT&T that has recently been uncovered?




Data-mining is not a sign of fascism.

Quote:

Paramilitary forces used domestically?




Example, please.

Quote:

An endless war?




Example, please.

Quote:

Here are the 10 steps for anyone who's too lazy to listen to the speech.




1) Misuse of the word "invoke". The enemy is real and has been attacking the US and its interests for decades. Identifying an enemy is not the same as invoking one.

2) Guantanamo Bay is not even close to being a Gulag.

3) Blackwater is not a thug caste, but a security firm, and in either case was not developed by the US government

4) Misrepresentation of the NSA surveillance program

5) No citizen's groups are being "harassed" by federal government as a matter of policy. Is there the occasional heavy handed move by some bureaucrat or low level minion somewhere? Of course. That has always been the case and always will be the case.

6) There is nothing "arbitrary" about the detention of enemy combatants. And as Randall points out, these are enemy combatants, not US citizens. Again, no fascist tendencies here. In wartime, captured combatants are detained.

7) Vague to the point of uselessness, and no supporting evidence.

8) Sheer bullshit. If ever there was a press that is more uncontrolled by government than the US press, it exists only in fiction. The US press is actively hostile to the current US government and in many cases arguably treasonous. This absurd allegation alone is so completely 180 degrees in opposition to the reality than any halfwit with even a smattering of knowledge of current affairs can see for himself that this "point" alone more than justifies my characterization of Wolf as an idiot. No one but an idiot would try with a straight face to persuade anyone that the US press is controlled by the US government.

9) Dissent = treason? Again, a completely hysterical and over the top misrepresentation of reality

10) The rule of law has been far from suspended. Wolf's problem is her near-complete lack of comprehension of both the legal history of the US, the US constitution, and the way to interpret judicial rulings. The fact of the matter is that law abiding US citizens today are in no more danger of being tossed in a hole somewhere today than they were on September 10, 2001.

As I said many posts ago, anyone capable of even moderate objectivity who possesses an average grasp of current affairs would identify all the same points I did in roughly the same time I did -- that's why Wolf was basically laughed off the stage by the blogosphere within hours of the publication of her ridiculous "ten steps" screed in that Lefty rag, The Guardian. Because this is so easy to do, I don't appreciate having to spell it all out for you. This is stuff you could have done on your own by now.

The thing is, if even SOME of these ten points were actually occurring, then one might arguably have the starting basis for an argument that the US government is trying to head the US government in a totalitarian direction, although political scientists would certainly take exception to Wolf's insistence that the totalitarian direction is "fascist". But of course a quick review of the points reveals that none of them are actually happening, so her argument is cut off at the ankles from the beginning.




Phred


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
    #7719890 - 12/05/07 02:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
And as Randall points out, these are enemy combatants, not US citizens.




Huh?  I must be drinking too much lately because I don't remember saying that in this thread.  Although, I probably have said it in the past.  :shrug:


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
    #7719913 - 12/05/07 02:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

While I find most (if not all) of this pathetic Leftist womyn academic's assertions ludicrous I am somewhat bothered by all of the farming out of military duties to private contractors. When a nation engages in military action it should be undertaken by citizens who believe in the principle of the cause...not because they are getting a fat check.

That being said, I understand why the contractors are necessary. The U.S. military does not have the logistics to do everything it needs to do in Iraq without them.


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7721457 - 12/05/07 07:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Phred said,
Quote:

9) Dissent = treason? Again, a completely hysterical and over the top misrepresentation of reality




No, Mission Accomplished is a completely hysterical and over the top misrepresentation of reality. "They're in their last throes" is a completely hysterical and over the top misrepresentation of reality.

I don't even need to pick apart your counter-points, they're so narrow-minded.

Your naivity is sad, and scary.


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
    #7721480 - 12/05/07 07:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Oh, was your grandfather a Nazi? Just wondering.


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7722243 - 12/05/07 10:28 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Just because he's not some brainwashed, frothy-mouthed, and conspiracy-theory spouting Leftist doesn't mean that his grandfather was a Nazi.


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7723199 - 12/06/07 06:08 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

kake writes:

Quote:

I don't even need to pick apart your counter-points, they're so narrow-minded.




LOL!

Here you've been whining at me in post after post for not being specific enough in my criticisms of Wolf to suit your taste. So when I do waste my time specifying a few of the most obvious flaws in her deluded screed, I get this as a rebuttal?

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Quote:

Your naivity (sic) is sad, and scary.




And your lack of knowledge of current affairs is sad and scary. Yet somehow, we both manage to get through the days.



Phred


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7723220 - 12/06/07 06:18 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

kake writes:

Quote:

I don't even need to pick apart your counter-points, they're so narrow-minded.




LOL!

Here you've been whining at me in post after post for not being specific enough in my criticisms of Wolf to suit your taste. So when I do waste my time specifying a few of the most obvious flaws in her deluded screed, I get this as a rebuttal?

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Quote:

Your naivity (sic) is sad, and scary.




And your lack of knowledge of current affairs is sad and scary. Yet somehow, we both manage to get through the days.



Phred


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
    #7723820 - 12/06/07 10:31 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

NEXT


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7723868 - 12/06/07 10:51 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

kake said:
Phred said,
Quote:

9) Dissent = treason? Again, a completely hysterical and over the top misrepresentation of reality




No, Mission Accomplished is a completely hysterical and over the top misrepresentation of reality. "They're in their last throes" is a completely hysterical and over the top misrepresentation of reality.




Two SAT questions for you, Do you know what "Mission" means and do you know what "Hysterical" means. The mission referred to was the removal of the Iraqi army. Hysterical is comedic or panicky. The only hysteria I see is from children and moonbats (redundant, I know). Has anyone been charged with treason, a legal term? No, other than Johnny Taliban, maybe. No one has been charged with treason for dissenting.
Quote:



I don't even need to pick apart your counter-points, they're so narrow-minded.

Your naivity is sad, and scary.




No, you don't need to at all. Isn't there a tree you would be better off rescuing in Berkeley?


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7723887 - 12/06/07 10:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

lol


It's funny how everyone who disagrees with the negative viewpoints of the world has to throw in labels and insults. I wonder where that comes from?


phred can you give an example of a country that has adopted all 10 points and is a democracy


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7723906 - 12/06/07 11:05 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

kake said:
lol







Smartest post you ever made.


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7724515 - 12/06/07 01:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

that list seems pretty silly. while its true that some of the things on the list seem to be true to some extent, i think the whole idea is misleading... first of all, these are some fairly arbitrary points, and shouldnt be taken as some sort of hard and fast path which is embarked upon by certain misled countries....its not like this is some sort of check list that stalin or hitler came up with, this silly lady looked at the history of fascism and drew up some rather weak connections between fascist governments and our own government... the existence of gulags obviously stands out, to me at least...comparing Guantanamo to the real gulags of soviet russia is not only historically very inaccurate, but, i feel, rather insulting to the monumental death and pain and suffering caused to the tens of MILLIONS of russian peasants who were imprisoned in these slave labor/death camps...im no expert on the gulags, but seriously, Guantanamo, which houses very few, if any american citizens and a maximum of a few thousand genuine enemy combatants is not same league, or even the same sport as the hundreds of siberian slave labor camps erected spescificaly to house millions of russian citizens....

in fact, in WW2 we locked up almost every japanese immigrant in the country, i would say that was way worse than locking up people from overseas who we genuinely believe wanna cause our country and its people harm....sure, the internment camps were crappy, but there was a legitimate fear, and after the war they were set free.... my point is that these things shouldnt be taken out of context

the word gulag is much more akin to 'nazi concentration camp' than Guantanamo bay...


shucks, i have to pick up my gf....more later


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7724770 - 12/06/07 02:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

kake writes:

Quote:

phred can you give an example of a country that has adopted all 10 points and is a democracy




You still don't get it, do you?

If there ever were a country which truly met the requirements of all ten points, I would be the first to agree that country is within a hair of being a totalitarian state, if not already one in actuality. But of course, as I have already pointed out, the US doesn't meet the criteria for even a single one of those ten points, let alone all of them.

So what you think of as a "gotcha" question ends up being completely beside the point.

Wolf's "argument" is nothing more than the listing of a bunch of traits she claims are common to "fascist" countries, then asserting that since in her Lefty warped view of reality Americans are being charged with treason, security companies are government-created thug castes, the press is just another propaganda organ for the State (I still can't stop chuckling at that one), listening in to enemy communications is somehow unconstitutional, etc.... hey presto! America is fascist!

The more I review our exchange to date, the more I'm starting to suspect your enthusiasm for her book is due to your own lack of knowledge of current affairs. Tell us truly, please... at the time you started this thread you actually did believe that Guantanamo Bay is equivalent to a gulag, that the press is in cahoots with the administration, that dissenters are being hauled into court on charges of treason, that the NSA surveillance program is unconstitutional, that the rule of law has been suspended, etc.

If you actually do believe all these things, well hell... it's no wonder you think this loony Lefty bint has actually written something of worth.




Phred


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
    #7725140 - 12/06/07 04:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

okay kake i think you need to read up on some history then come back and realize how wrong you are about arguing that america is fascist.


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"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Invisiblekake
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7726124 - 12/06/07 08:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Could you point to the post where I said America was fascist?


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Invisiblekake
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7726184 - 12/06/07 08:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

'In March, 1915, the J.P. Morgan interests, the steel, shipbuilding, and powder interest, and their subsidiary organizations, got together 12 men high up in the newspaper world and employed them to select the most influential newspapers in the United States and sufficient number of them to control generally the policy of the daily press....They found it was only necessary to purchase the control of 25 of the greatest papers.' " 'The world can therefore seize the opportunity [Persian Gulf crisis] to fulfill the long--held promise of a New World Order where diverse nations are drawn together in common cause to achieve the universal aspirations of mankind.'
-- George Herbert Walker Bush"


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OfflineFocusHawaii
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7727310 - 12/07/07 02:51 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

It's funny how everyone who disagrees with the negative viewpoints of the world has to throw in labels and insults. I wonder where that comes from?

Oh, was your grandfather a Nazi? Just wondering.

The irony...too immense to try and use some wit...


Edited by FocusHawaii (12/07/07 02:52 AM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7729090 - 12/07/07 02:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

kake said:
'In March, 1915, the J.P. Morgan interests, the steel, shipbuilding, and powder interest, and their subsidiary organizations, got together 12 men high up in the newspaper world and employed them to select the most influential newspapers in the United States and sufficient number of them to control generally the policy of the daily press....They found it was only necessary to purchase the control of 25 of the greatest papers.' " 'The world can therefore seize the opportunity [Persian Gulf crisis] to fulfill the long--held promise of a New World Order where diverse nations are drawn together in common cause to achieve the universal aspirations of mankind.'
-- George Herbert Walker Bush"




This is the quote from Bush:
Quote:

"We will succeed in the Gulf. And when we do, the world community will have sent an enduring warning to any dictator or despot, present or future, who contemplates outlaw aggression. The world can therefore seize this opportunity to fufill the long-held promise of a new world order - where brutality will go unrewarded, and aggression will meet collective resistance."
President George Bush State of the Union Address 1991



There seem to be some other variations quoted, such as this from 1990
Quote:

"We stand today at a unique and extraordinary moment. The crisis in the

Persian Gulf, as grave as it is, also offers a rare opportunity to move toward

a historic period of cooperation. Out of these troubled times...a New World

Order can emerge - a new era, freer from the threat of terror, stronger in the

pursuit of justice, and more secure in the quest for peace, an era in which the

nations of the world, East and West, North and South, can prosper and live in

harmony".





The first part about JP Morgan, et al., is the opinion of Congressman Oscar Calloway (variously, Callaway), 1917, as read into the Congressional Record. He was not subsequently re-elected. The whole statement can be found here.
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/Morgan-Buys-Newspapers9feb17.htm

Has one of our littlest intellects perhaps been dabbling in that which is forbidden him? Hmmmmm?

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/believe_new_world_order.htm

And lying too. It's not nice to mis-attribute quotes or to creatively punctuate two separate (temporally and contextually) quotes so as to make them appear as one. You have essentially confirmed yourself yet again as a liar. If I didn't have you for opposition, I would ask Santa to send me one just like you. Or Baal, I'm not fussy about who sends me gifts.


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Invisiblekake
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7751385 - 12/12/07 09:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

you calling me a liar?  :lol:


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