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kake
The answer to1984 is 1776.




Registered: 05/06/99
Posts: 2,782
Loc: The 66th harmonic
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: gluke bastid]
#7719120 - 12/05/07 10:44 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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How do you feel about status offenses Phred? The idea that Bush can say, "you're an enemy of the nation" without any evidence and put you in a jail cell for up to 3 years without trial.
How about unwarranted wiretapping? The NSA's mass data-duplication using AT&T that has recently been uncovered? Paramilitary forces used domestically? An endless war?
Sounds a lot like fascism to me.
Here are the 10 steps for anyone who's too lazy to listen to the speech.
1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy (first it's terrorism, now it's becoming "homegrown" terrorism - there are nearly 800,000 people on the terror watch list!!! You think that's not going to quell dissent? You're dreaming.
2. Create a gulag -Guantanamo
3. Develop a thug caste -Blackwater
4. Set up an internal surveillance system - NSA & AT&T, unwarranted wiretapping
5. Harass citizens' groups - read up on the Univ. of Santa Cruz anti-war meeting that got raided by federal agents because of "terror threats" - these people were peaceful and not even borderline radical students gathering to share information. Peacefully. This is just ONE example of many many many.
6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release - You try to fly and you're on the terror list, you get taken aside, questioned, etc. etc.
7. Target key individuals - see #8
8. Control the press - It's obvious the major media is in bed with the government. They've fed us lies and slanted bullshit presented as fact for years. Everyone knows FOX news and CNN are a fucking joke... well everyone except those who live in isolation from the truth (which is an alarming # of people in this country) Look how bad FOX news tries to make Ron Paul look at every opportunity. He won their phone poll with something like %40 of callers saying he won the debate, and afterwards all the anchors tried to downplay it. I wonder what they would've said if one of their favored candidates won? Hmm...
9. Dissent equals treason "You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists" ?
10. Suspend the rule of law - Fuck the constitution, fuck civil liberties, the war on terror has given the president more power than he's ever had in the history of this country. Whether or not he's abused all of them is debatable, but he still pushes to keep them and can just as easily pass them along to the next crook.
I only provided short examples for each of these, but they are not things that happen in every country nor are they things that should be happening in OURS.
-------------------- The answer to 1984 is 1776.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
#7719176 - 12/05/07 10:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
2. Create a gulag -Guantanamo
How many US citizens have been detained there?
Quote:
3. Develop a thug caste -Blackwater
When have Blackwater been used in the US for intimidation purposes?
Quote:
9. Dissent equals treason "You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists" ?
That's not an example of treason. When was the last time a dissenting figure was convicted of treason for talking against the government?
Quote:
10. Suspend the rule of law - Fuck the constitution, fuck civil liberties, the war on terror has given the president more power than he's ever had in the history of this country. Whether or not he's abused all of them is debatable, but he still pushes to keep them and can just as easily pass them along to the next crook.
That's not even close to true. During the Civil War, Lincoln had much more power. What powers does Bush have that haven't been exercised before?
I agree with the post above mine that states that while we should always keep a watchful eye on the gov't, fear-mongering like this is pointless and no better than what you blame the gov't of doing.
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy


Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: gluke bastid]
#7719509 - 12/05/07 12:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
gluke bastid said: I don't agree with Naomi Wolf (never have) or the sentiment that America is headed towards a Fascism that was similar to the third Reich
well in that case..i might interest you in some beach property that i have for sale in montana...
Quote:
If we are informed, voting, democratic, intelligent citizens who have our eyes open and aren't afraid to stand up for what we believe in it is my hope that Fascism is not in our future.
unfortunately..informed..voting..intelligent citizens are not always "democratic"...naomi wolf has conveniently ignored them..instead choosing simply to call the electoral majority gullible fools...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
#7719863 - 12/05/07 02:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
How do you feel about status offenses Phred? The idea that Bush can say, "you're an enemy of the nation" without any evidence and put you in a jail cell for up to 3 years without trial.
I assume you are referring to Jose Padilla. The fact that Padilla -- ONE guy -- waited substantially longer than usual for the courts to decide what to do with him says nothing about America becoming fascist.
Quote:
How about unwarranted wiretapping?
What about it? The whole NSA non-scandal has been exhaustively covered in this forum in numerous threads. Electronic surveillance of enemy communications in time of war is not only legal, but required by the US president's oath of office. Strike two.
Quote:
The NSA's mass data-duplication using AT&T that has recently been uncovered?
Data-mining is not a sign of fascism.
Quote:
Paramilitary forces used domestically?
Example, please.
Quote:
An endless war?
Example, please.
Quote:
Here are the 10 steps for anyone who's too lazy to listen to the speech.
1) Misuse of the word "invoke". The enemy is real and has been attacking the US and its interests for decades. Identifying an enemy is not the same as invoking one.
2) Guantanamo Bay is not even close to being a Gulag.
3) Blackwater is not a thug caste, but a security firm, and in either case was not developed by the US government
4) Misrepresentation of the NSA surveillance program
5) No citizen's groups are being "harassed" by federal government as a matter of policy. Is there the occasional heavy handed move by some bureaucrat or low level minion somewhere? Of course. That has always been the case and always will be the case.
6) There is nothing "arbitrary" about the detention of enemy combatants. And as Randall points out, these are enemy combatants, not US citizens. Again, no fascist tendencies here. In wartime, captured combatants are detained.
7) Vague to the point of uselessness, and no supporting evidence.
8) Sheer bullshit. If ever there was a press that is more uncontrolled by government than the US press, it exists only in fiction. The US press is actively hostile to the current US government and in many cases arguably treasonous. This absurd allegation alone is so completely 180 degrees in opposition to the reality than any halfwit with even a smattering of knowledge of current affairs can see for himself that this "point" alone more than justifies my characterization of Wolf as an idiot. No one but an idiot would try with a straight face to persuade anyone that the US press is controlled by the US government.
9) Dissent = treason? Again, a completely hysterical and over the top misrepresentation of reality
10) The rule of law has been far from suspended. Wolf's problem is her near-complete lack of comprehension of both the legal history of the US, the US constitution, and the way to interpret judicial rulings. The fact of the matter is that law abiding US citizens today are in no more danger of being tossed in a hole somewhere today than they were on September 10, 2001.
As I said many posts ago, anyone capable of even moderate objectivity who possesses an average grasp of current affairs would identify all the same points I did in roughly the same time I did -- that's why Wolf was basically laughed off the stage by the blogosphere within hours of the publication of her ridiculous "ten steps" screed in that Lefty rag, The Guardian. Because this is so easy to do, I don't appreciate having to spell it all out for you. This is stuff you could have done on your own by now.
The thing is, if even SOME of these ten points were actually occurring, then one might arguably have the starting basis for an argument that the US government is trying to head the US government in a totalitarian direction, although political scientists would certainly take exception to Wolf's insistence that the totalitarian direction is "fascist". But of course a quick review of the points reveals that none of them are actually happening, so her argument is cut off at the ankles from the beginning.
Phred
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
#7719890 - 12/05/07 02:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said: And as Randall points out, these are enemy combatants, not US citizens.
Huh? I must be drinking too much lately because I don't remember saying that in this thread. Although, I probably have said it in the past.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
#7719913 - 12/05/07 02:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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While I find most (if not all) of this pathetic Leftist womyn academic's assertions ludicrous I am somewhat bothered by all of the farming out of military duties to private contractors. When a nation engages in military action it should be undertaken by citizens who believe in the principle of the cause...not because they are getting a fat check.
That being said, I understand why the contractors are necessary. The U.S. military does not have the logistics to do everything it needs to do in Iraq without them.
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kake
The answer to1984 is 1776.




Registered: 05/06/99
Posts: 2,782
Loc: The 66th harmonic
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7721457 - 12/05/07 07:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Phred said, Quote:
9) Dissent = treason? Again, a completely hysterical and over the top misrepresentation of reality
No, Mission Accomplished is a completely hysterical and over the top misrepresentation of reality. "They're in their last throes" is a completely hysterical and over the top misrepresentation of reality.
I don't even need to pick apart your counter-points, they're so narrow-minded.
Your naivity is sad, and scary.
-------------------- The answer to 1984 is 1776.
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kake
The answer to1984 is 1776.




Registered: 05/06/99
Posts: 2,782
Loc: The 66th harmonic
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
#7721480 - 12/05/07 07:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Oh, was your grandfather a Nazi? Just wondering.
-------------------- The answer to 1984 is 1776.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
#7722243 - 12/05/07 10:28 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Just because he's not some brainwashed, frothy-mouthed, and conspiracy-theory spouting Leftist doesn't mean that his grandfather was a Nazi.
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
#7723199 - 12/06/07 06:08 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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kake writes:
Quote:
I don't even need to pick apart your counter-points, they're so narrow-minded.
LOL!
Here you've been whining at me in post after post for not being specific enough in my criticisms of Wolf to suit your taste. So when I do waste my time specifying a few of the most obvious flaws in her deluded screed, I get this as a rebuttal?
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Quote:
Your naivity (sic) is sad, and scary.
And your lack of knowledge of current affairs is sad and scary. Yet somehow, we both manage to get through the days.
Phred
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
#7723220 - 12/06/07 06:18 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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kake writes:
Quote:
I don't even need to pick apart your counter-points, they're so narrow-minded.
LOL!
Here you've been whining at me in post after post for not being specific enough in my criticisms of Wolf to suit your taste. So when I do waste my time specifying a few of the most obvious flaws in her deluded screed, I get this as a rebuttal?
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Quote:
Your naivity (sic) is sad, and scary.
And your lack of knowledge of current affairs is sad and scary. Yet somehow, we both manage to get through the days.
Phred
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kake
The answer to1984 is 1776.




Registered: 05/06/99
Posts: 2,782
Loc: The 66th harmonic
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
#7723820 - 12/06/07 10:31 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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NEXT
-------------------- The answer to 1984 is 1776.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
#7723868 - 12/06/07 10:51 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
kake said: Phred said, Quote:
9) Dissent = treason? Again, a completely hysterical and over the top misrepresentation of reality
No, Mission Accomplished is a completely hysterical and over the top misrepresentation of reality. "They're in their last throes" is a completely hysterical and over the top misrepresentation of reality.
Two SAT questions for you, Do you know what "Mission" means and do you know what "Hysterical" means. The mission referred to was the removal of the Iraqi army. Hysterical is comedic or panicky. The only hysteria I see is from children and moonbats (redundant, I know). Has anyone been charged with treason, a legal term? No, other than Johnny Taliban, maybe. No one has been charged with treason for dissenting. Quote:
I don't even need to pick apart your counter-points, they're so narrow-minded.
Your naivity is sad, and scary.
No, you don't need to at all. Isn't there a tree you would be better off rescuing in Berkeley?
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kake
The answer to1984 is 1776.




Registered: 05/06/99
Posts: 2,782
Loc: The 66th harmonic
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: zappaisgod]
#7723887 - 12/06/07 10:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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lol
It's funny how everyone who disagrees with the negative viewpoints of the world has to throw in labels and insults. I wonder where that comes from?
phred can you give an example of a country that has adopted all 10 points and is a democracy
-------------------- The answer to 1984 is 1776.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
#7723906 - 12/06/07 11:05 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
kake said: lol
Smartest post you ever made.
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boomer q
Comrade General



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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: zappaisgod]
#7724515 - 12/06/07 01:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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that list seems pretty silly. while its true that some of the things on the list seem to be true to some extent, i think the whole idea is misleading... first of all, these are some fairly arbitrary points, and shouldnt be taken as some sort of hard and fast path which is embarked upon by certain misled countries....its not like this is some sort of check list that stalin or hitler came up with, this silly lady looked at the history of fascism and drew up some rather weak connections between fascist governments and our own government... the existence of gulags obviously stands out, to me at least...comparing Guantanamo to the real gulags of soviet russia is not only historically very inaccurate, but, i feel, rather insulting to the monumental death and pain and suffering caused to the tens of MILLIONS of russian peasants who were imprisoned in these slave labor/death camps...im no expert on the gulags, but seriously, Guantanamo, which houses very few, if any american citizens and a maximum of a few thousand genuine enemy combatants is not same league, or even the same sport as the hundreds of siberian slave labor camps erected spescificaly to house millions of russian citizens....
in fact, in WW2 we locked up almost every japanese immigrant in the country, i would say that was way worse than locking up people from overseas who we genuinely believe wanna cause our country and its people harm....sure, the internment camps were crappy, but there was a legitimate fear, and after the war they were set free.... my point is that these things shouldnt be taken out of context
the word gulag is much more akin to 'nazi concentration camp' than Guantanamo bay...
shucks, i have to pick up my gf....more later
-------------------- I got bags of funk and i sell em by the tons
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
#7724770 - 12/06/07 02:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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kake writes:
Quote:
phred can you give an example of a country that has adopted all 10 points and is a democracy
You still don't get it, do you?
If there ever were a country which truly met the requirements of all ten points, I would be the first to agree that country is within a hair of being a totalitarian state, if not already one in actuality. But of course, as I have already pointed out, the US doesn't meet the criteria for even a single one of those ten points, let alone all of them.
So what you think of as a "gotcha" question ends up being completely beside the point.
Wolf's "argument" is nothing more than the listing of a bunch of traits she claims are common to "fascist" countries, then asserting that since in her Lefty warped view of reality Americans are being charged with treason, security companies are government-created thug castes, the press is just another propaganda organ for the State (I still can't stop chuckling at that one), listening in to enemy communications is somehow unconstitutional, etc.... hey presto! America is fascist!
The more I review our exchange to date, the more I'm starting to suspect your enthusiasm for her book is due to your own lack of knowledge of current affairs. Tell us truly, please... at the time you started this thread you actually did believe that Guantanamo Bay is equivalent to a gulag, that the press is in cahoots with the administration, that dissenters are being hauled into court on charges of treason, that the NSA surveillance program is unconstitutional, that the rule of law has been suspended, etc.
If you actually do believe all these things, well hell... it's no wonder you think this loony Lefty bint has actually written something of worth.
Phred
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SlashOZ
:D



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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
#7725140 - 12/06/07 04:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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okay kake i think you need to read up on some history then come back and realize how wrong you are about arguing that america is fascist.
-------------------- "Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose "Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS "When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi "Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson. "Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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kake
The answer to1984 is 1776.




Registered: 05/06/99
Posts: 2,782
Loc: The 66th harmonic
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: SlashOZ]
#7726124 - 12/06/07 08:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Could you point to the post where I said America was fascist?
-------------------- The answer to 1984 is 1776.
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kake
The answer to1984 is 1776.




Registered: 05/06/99
Posts: 2,782
Loc: The 66th harmonic
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
#7726184 - 12/06/07 08:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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'In March, 1915, the J.P. Morgan interests, the steel, shipbuilding, and powder interest, and their subsidiary organizations, got together 12 men high up in the newspaper world and employed them to select the most influential newspapers in the United States and sufficient number of them to control generally the policy of the daily press....They found it was only necessary to purchase the control of 25 of the greatest papers.' " 'The world can therefore seize the opportunity [Persian Gulf crisis] to fulfill the long--held promise of a New World Order where diverse nations are drawn together in common cause to achieve the universal aspirations of mankind.' -- George Herbert Walker Bush"
-------------------- The answer to 1984 is 1776.
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