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OfflinePhred
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: afoaf]
    #7698142 - 11/30/07 09:40 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

afoaf writes:

Quote:

can you please point to 'any industrialized nation' that has achieved the 10 points and NOT turned into a fascist state?




Sigh. You surprise me, afoaf, you really do. I had you pegged as a lot more reasonable than this.

The thing is, not even Wolf claims the US has achieved these ten points, just that in her insanely broad and distorted re-definitions of commonly understood words (i.e. gulag, thug caste, etc.) the US is heading towards a road which will if left unchecked eventually get around to producing a fascist state.

But if you apply her same absurd sloppiness of terms to just about any sizeable country that has ever existed, every one of those countries will be guilty of at least a few of her ten, and most will be guilty of a majority. Some will be guilty of all. Wolf's schtick is the same as that of our most infamous female poster here in Political Discussion -- redefine words to suit your own meaning, exaggerate even that redefinition to the point of absurdity, then insist that some tangential connection to this exaggerated and redefined term is every bit as bad as the real term itself. The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

It's an infantile, puerile, not very clever, embarassingly silly and ultimately boring display of intellectual dishonesty. It's one thing to be passionate about what one perceives as the faults of those with whom one disagrees, it's quite another to indulge in hysterically inaccurate exaggerations that anyone with even a moderate grasp of current affairs can see through.




Phred


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Invisiblekake
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
    #7698170 - 11/30/07 09:49 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I see words but I don't see anything that could be actually credible about what you're saying, Phred... nor did you really answer afoaf's question with anything less than a high-nosed remark.

You make all these points but don't bother to back them up with a single fact?

You're claiming Naomi Wolf is intellectually dishonest? How exactly? What has she said that is known to be false?


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The answer to 1984 is 1776.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7698207 - 11/30/07 10:01 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Read her Ten Points. Someone else has already provided a link to them.

When I say read them, I mean read them. Don't just pass your eyes over the marks on the screen, read the point in bold, reflect on just what the meaning is of "gulag" or "thug" or "caste" or "invoke" or "develop" or "harass" or "arbitrary" or "control" or "threaten" or "suspend". When I say reflect on the meaning of these words, I mean if necessary look them up in a dictionary or two to remind you of what they mean. I want you to understand those words the way a normal person would, not a highly partisan zealot. Words have meanings. That's why there are so many of them.

Then look at the examples Wolf gives which purport to illustrate her ten points. Compare her version of "reality" with what you already know of those same events. Note the total disconnect between the two.

When you've done that exercise, you'll see why I needn't bother to shred her gibberish point by point -- any reasonably well-informed individual can do so on his own.




Phred


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Offlined33p
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: afoaf]
    #7699460 - 11/30/07 03:08 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
can you please point to 'any industrialized nation' that has achieved the
10 points and NOT turned into a fascist state?

I imagine that your comment is much like Phred's...baseless.

If Phred actually read 'her book', I'd be shocked....at the very least he's
demonstrated the personal attacks that made up most of the negative reviews
of this book on amazon.




ok, ok, I wrong. The 10 points I read weren't her's, they were at least somewhat reasonable and applicable. Her's are so fucking stupid it's funny. Some of the dumbest shit I've ever read.

thanks for the laugh


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
    #7700237 - 11/30/07 06:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I guess I can understand your perspective from semantics point of view.

I agree with the general idea she posits and I don't really have any
predisposition to her work.

Maybe I'm just a sucker.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: afoaf]
    #7700270 - 11/30/07 06:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
I guess I can understand your perspective from semantics point of view.

I agree with the general idea she posits and I don't really have any
predisposition to her work.

Maybe I'm just a sucker.




You're just mad she did such a bad job trying to validate your beliefs.


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Edited by zappaisgod (11/30/07 06:21 PM)


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7700328 - 11/30/07 06:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

no, I'm just generally mad.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: afoaf]
    #7700372 - 11/30/07 06:50 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

:cool:


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7707348 - 12/02/07 04:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

IMAO..naomi wolfs analysis of the process of a fascist takeover is for the most part correct...however..she posits a level of gullibility on the part of voters that i find difficult to accept...

to be sure..some ppl really are that gullible...but wolf must nevertheless also consider the reverse scenario..where the 10 steps come into play after a "silent majority" of voters have reached a consensus for fascism...

in other words..she has not addressed whether there are more pragmatic reasons (i cant think of any) why voters would opt for a fascist state even if they dont watch faux news...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7707574 - 12/02/07 05:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

kake said:
If she were a shroomerite, would that mean you'd have to ban yourself? :kingcrankey:




If anyone would be expected to withhold a higher standard than the rest of us, you'd expect it to be a mod. 


Edited by YidakiMan (12/02/07 05:51 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: YidakiMan]
    #7709691 - 12/03/07 05:32 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, if Naomi Wolf were a Shroomerite posting in the Political Discussion forum, clearly I would have to refrain from flaming her. But she is no more a Shroomerite than Ann Coulter or Bill O'Reilly or Rush Limbaugh or Dick Cheney... all of whom have had far worse comments made about them here in dozens (in some cases hundreds) of threads.

Why is it that only the Lefties whine when their icons are slighted? In all my years of reading this forum, I have not once seen a Rightie object to Bush or Cheney or Limbaugh being trashed, and I have certainly never seen a Rightie try to pretend that slangin' Ann Coulter or Condi Rice is somehow "flaming." Yet this is far from the first time a Leftie has gotten his knickers in a knot about anyone who dares be less than awestruck over their favorite Noam Chomsky wannabe.

Bottom line here is I broke neither forum rules nor moderator guidelines, so any further attempts to guilt trip me are a waste of keystrokes. Let's get the thread back on topic.



Phred


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Invisiblekake
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
    #7713789 - 12/04/07 01:06 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Why is it you must label me a Lefty?

What the fuck does fascism have anything to do with being politically left?

You've just proven yourself to be extremely biased and completely removed from any logical argument.

To answer your question, the reason I (not a "Lefty" for the record) griped about your post was that you simply said she was a moron, and offered no substance, no facts, no credibility. As if you're somebody worth listening to. At least I offered some content.

The reason nobody defends Bush? THEY CANT IN GOOD FAITH. At least not the ones who are somewhat coherent. Is that so hard to come to grips with?


--------------------
The answer to 1984 is 1776.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7714167 - 12/04/07 07:27 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Why is it you must label me a Lefty?




Those who idolize Lefties are typically Lefties themselves, that's all. I'm just going with the odds. It may be that in your case you are one of the very rare individuals who idolize Lefties but are actually a Rightie, but from the tenor of your posts in this forum that's unlikely.

Naomi Wolf is a stone Lefty. Anyone who pretends otherwise is fooling themselves and nobody else. So anyone who starts a post by characterizing her latest witless screed as --

Quote:

...perhaps the most important book to be released in my lifetime...




-- can fairly be assumed to be a huge Naomi Wolf fan. Further, the reviews you post in support of your characterization are also from (surprise, surprise!) Lefties.

Quote:

You've just proven yourself to be extremely biased and completely removed from any logical argument.




You've just proven yourself to be extremely biased and completely removed from any logical argument -- by swallowing uncritically Wolf's unsabstantiated (and in most cases readily disproven) gibberish. Let's not even talk for now about the countless outside reviewers of her efforts who've skewered her delusional ramblings -- reviewers far more conversant with the issues than the regular Political Discussion posters -- just look how many members here have pegged her for what she is.

This again is another standard Lefty trait (not necessarily saying that you are a Lefty, mind you... just that the majority of Lefties exhibit the following trait) -- the tendency to watch a video, proclaim it "hugely awesome, truly important, doodz you just gotta invest an hour of your life watching this new messiah," then shit all over anyone who does watch it and says, "Meh... just more crap repackaged slightly differently". Here we have two people whose assessments of the same material differ, yet the Lefty automatically assumes the reason the other guy isn't orgasming over it is because he's "extremely biased and completely removed from any logical argument". It never occurs to the Lefty that the reason the other guy is less than enthusiastic might be that the other guy is better at detecting bullshit than the Lefty is.

Quote:

At least I offered some content.




Yes, you did. And I observed that the content you offered was gibberish from a Lefty sufferer of Bush Derangement Syndrome who couldn't figure out how to pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the sole. You want to talk about bias? Naomi Wolf is about as biased as they come. I'll admit Noam Chomsky might beat her in the bias game, but hey... Noam is the undisputed Dark Master. To even compete in the same general area as the Noamster is quite the accomplishment.



Phred


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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
    #7714191 - 12/04/07 07:41 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Those who idolize Lefties are typically Lefties themselves, that's all. I'm just going with the odds. It may be that in your case you are one of the very rare individuals who idolize Lefties but are actually a Rightie




Not everything is right or left. I feel sorry for the tiny box of a world your mind inhabits.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #7714214 - 12/04/07 07:51 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Try to imagine just how grateful I am for your sympathy.

Do you have any comments to make on the worth of Wolf's screed?




Phred


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
    #7714845 - 12/04/07 11:05 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Naomi Wolf is a stone Lefty.



Well, in that video he posted, she did emphasize the importance of the 2nd amendment. Not a typical lefty stance, although an understandable position for anyone worried about fascism.


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OfflineEsKregg
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Silversoul]
    #7714965 - 12/04/07 11:35 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

that left/right bullshit is just that, bullshit. its fake, set up to divide people. as for fascism, we've been on the road to fascism since before ww2. for all intents and purposes we are already a fascist state. ever heard people talk about the military industrial complex? ike warned us it was taking over when he was pres. well, that's just a fancy term for fascism. honestly, talking about whether or not we are on the road to fascism is dumb. we are already there. i forget who said it, but "no person is so hopelessly enslaved as one who falsely believes he is free."


--------------------
TAO

but really, fish noodles


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Invisiblekake
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
    #7716842 - 12/04/07 06:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Phred:

For the record, I also didn't idolize her. I'm not sure where you got that. That's two generalizations you've put on my shoulders. Enough said?

I praised her book, which is completely different, (once again the message is NOT the same as messenger, which you continue to confuse) NOR is it by any means an original point of view of Wolf's, nor does she claim it to be... it is a collection of evidence and it is presented quite well, that is why I posted this. I'm not a Wolf fan, but I think this book is remarkable. Why must I be labelled?

There is so much overwhelming evidence that the powers that be want more power, you'd have to be completely naive to believe otherwise. If you'd be a bit more objective in your argument, perhaps we could get back to the topic... but all you've done is bashed Wolf. I doubt you even listened to the content, so please stop derailing this thread until you can counter her points with verifiable facts, not opinions, please.


--------------------
The answer to 1984 is 1776.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: kake]
    #7718545 - 12/05/07 06:01 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I praised her book, which is completely different, (once again the message is NOT the same as messenger, which you continue to confuse) NOR is it by any means an original point of view of Wolf's...




Of course it isn't. It is the generic default view of just about any Lefty you care to name. It's their mantra -- "Amerikka is fascist, man!"

Quote:

...it is a collection of evidence and it is presented quite well, that is why I posted this.




But that's the point. A lot of what is presented is NOT evidence, but speculation, misrepresentation, exaggeration, and outright bullshit. As for being presented quite well, you have GOT to be kidding me.

Quote:

There is so much overwhelming evidence that the powers that be want more power, you'd have to be completely naive to believe otherwise.




If true, so what? There is an enormous difference between wanting more power and actively turning one's country into a fascist state.

Look, I realize you are younger than I am, but I've been hearing this identical crap for forty fucking years now. The Leftards are always whining about how the jackboot of totalitarianism is about to descend on America's neck, but never make a peep when it ends up (as it always does) landing on the neck of some Eastern European or Asian or African or South American country instead. The fact of the matter is that the US is not an iota more fascist today than it was in 1967. As a matter of fact, it is less fascist -- as just one example, there is no longer a military draft.

Quote:

...so please stop derailing this thread until you can counter her points with verifiable facts, not opinions, please.




But that's the point, duh! As I have pointed out repeatedly, a large number of the "examples" she claims bolster her paranoid delusions are not verifiable facts at all. Or they are facts but are only very VERY tangentially related to fascism; and even then only if one strains as mightily as one can to give her the benefit of a doubt.

Look, you accuse me of not listening to her crap but you aren't reading what I write. I refer you to my earlier post re checking the definitions of "gulags", "thug", "caste", etc., then re-reading Wolf's ludicrous attempts to pass off her examples as meeting those definitions. Here, I'll even get you started -- no matter how many times the Lefties repeat their bullshit, Guantanamo Bay is not a gulag. Not even anywhere close to a gulag. It is, at worst, a detention camp for prisoners of war -- by all accounts the most luxurious such camp in all of recorded history.

See how simple that was? Now move on the next of her ten points, repeat till you reach the end.



Phred


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: 10 Steps To Fascism (& the parallels between Nazi Germany and America Today) [Re: Phred]
    #7719071 - 12/05/07 10:30 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I don't agree with Naomi Wolf (never have) or the sentiment that America is headed towards a Fascism that was similar to the third Reich, or that Bush is anything like Hitler. Those conclusions are usually based on a watered-down understanding of history with gross exaggerations.

However I don't think that Naomi Wolf is totally off the mark. While I am not going to panic into thinking that a secret police is about to kick my door down, I do believe that we need to keep a really close eye on our government. Just because we are living in a democracy does not mean that we are safe from Fascism...Recall that government in Germany was democratic, and the nazis were voted into considerable power until they started persecuting the communists and took control of things. There is the potential for this to happen in America. Is it happening right now? I don't think so. So I don't think we need to freak out, which is my primary complaint with the message of both Naomi Wolf and the Bush administration. They get people's attention by telling them that they need to be freaked out.

If we are informed, voting, democratic, intelligent citizens who have our eyes open and aren't afraid to stand up for what we believe in it is my hope that Fascism is not in our future.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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