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shaggydogman
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Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 672
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Cleaning containers for reuse after trich
#7684760 - 11/27/07 07:09 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've been using Tupperware trays to do bulk hpoo grows. Recently I lost 2 to trich whilst the hpoo was colonizing.
Now I appreciate trich problems can be tough to solve but without going into too much detail I am following a line of logic that makes me think the most likely cause is trich spores remaining in the tray from a previous grow that went bad.
Last time I took them outside and disposed of the contents in a compost pile, then rinsed the trays off inside. I then gave em a good wash with soap an water and then cleaned em with rubbing alcohol prior to mixing up the sub. I'm not sure that rubbing alcohol kills trich spores.
So my question is what is the best way to clean out trays after trich to ensure that every single bloody little trich spore is dead!!!
Bleach, ISO 70%, bleach / vinegar, or should I pasteurize the trays somehow (like cook 'em in the oven after a good bleach wash), or should I just chuck em and start with new ones?
Thanks in advance. Shagster.
-------------------- Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.
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Slimz
.-~*´`*·~-experience-~*´`*·~-.




Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 3,588
Loc: Maryland
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Re: Cleaning containers for reuse after trich [Re: shaggydogman]
#7684772 - 11/27/07 07:16 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Bleach / Vinegar should work. Use 1 cup bleach, 1 cup vinegar and 1 gallon water.
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labrat265
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Registered: 02/03/07
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Re: Cleaning containers for reuse after trich [Re: shaggydogman]
#7684865 - 11/27/07 07:52 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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When I had that problem, I used Iodophor (sp?) that I had purchased from Fungi Perfecti. Also, years ago, someone posted a long paper on sterilizers and how they work. It had indicated that alcohol is not affective against endospores (like trich?).
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labrat265
Experimenter.



Registered: 02/03/07
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Re: Cleaning containers for reuse after trich [Re: labrat265]
#7684897 - 11/27/07 08:07 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Oh! I should add that a friend recommended this to me and I resisted his advice because of price. I think it was $25 per gallon. However, it is so diluted that you could make over a hundred gallons of the stuff at double strength, making it way more cost efficient than 90% Iso.
-------------------- All paid jobs absorb and degrade the mind - Aristotle
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shaggydogman
Stranger


Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 672
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Re: Cleaning containers for reuse after trich [Re: labrat265]
#7684970 - 11/27/07 08:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thanks guys, I now have a spray bottle of 16:1:1 water/bleach/vinegar. I'm just reading up on the Iodophor stuff, found some in a home brew shop pretty cheap as well. I will keep that in mind.
I was just reading this thread
Quote:
CaptainLinger said: Pasteurization is still well above the 130F that trich might survive.
Anyone know what temp trich spores dies at? I was just examining my dishwasher and it's hottest wash is 65C (149F) which sounds promising as well (takes a good hour or two). The trays are in there at the moment.
I'm a regular with oust, can I double check that Oust does kill airbourne trich spores?
Sorry to be double checking all the points here like this but I'm just about to do another couple of trays (same ones) and want to avoid if I can spending the next month culivating trich in em!
CAUSE I HATE TRICH!!!!!
-------------------- Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.
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shaggydogman
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Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 672
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Re: Cleaning containers for reuse after trich [Re: labrat265]
#7684981 - 11/27/07 08:41 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
labrat265 said: When I had that problem, I used Iodophor (sp?) that I had purchased from Fungi Perfecti. Also, years ago, someone posted a long paper on sterilizers and how they work. It had indicated that alcohol is not affective against endospores (like trich?).
I thought the alcohol was the weak point in my process, there were some posts here recently about it and spores as well. I seem to remember that the trays didn't get the dishwasher last time either.
We live and learn....
-------------------- Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.
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Sillicybin
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Re: Cleaning containers for reuse after trich [Re: shaggydogman]
#7685902 - 11/27/07 12:50 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
It had indicated that alcohol is not affective against endospores (like trich?).
Trich does not produce endospores. Only (very certain) bacteria produce endospores, while trichoderma and other sexually-reproducing fungi produce spores.
But you are mostly correct - alcohol is a poor disinfectant for spores and endospores. Alcohol works by dissolving the cell walls of living cells and precipitating the cell's proteins. Spores have a tough coating around them (much like most seeds in the macroscopic plant world do) which makes it hard for the alcohol to penetrate and perform its function as a disinfectant.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Cleaning containers for reuse after trich [Re: Sillicybin]
#7686047 - 11/27/07 01:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've never done more than wash the containers with soap and water between uses. I can't imagine spores not being washed off the surface of the tray when scrubbed with a detergent laden brush.
If in doubt, you could put them in the oven afterward at 150F or so for an hour. RR
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legallyhomeless
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Re: Cleaning containers for reuse after trich [Re: RogerRabbit]
#7686684 - 11/27/07 04:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: I've never done more than wash the containers with soap and water between uses. I can't imagine spores not being washed off the surface of the tray when scrubbed with a detergent laden brush.
If in doubt, you could put them in the oven afterward at 150F or so for an hour. RR
I use soap and water and with the PCing for the next batch, I wouldnt worry.
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VisionsToReality
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Re: Cleaning containers for reuse after trich [Re: legallyhomeless]
#7686719 - 11/27/07 04:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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why would you have to worry about every single spore of it? it's not a sterile situation anyways, right?
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shaggydogman
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Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 672
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Re: Cleaning containers for reuse after trich [Re: VisionsToReality]
#7689318 - 11/28/07 06:48 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thanks for all the help so far. I'm probably barking up the wrong tree. The more I read it's more likely going to be from the spawn and that I also probably didn't use enough spawn (trying to stretch it). The trays were nearly colonised atfer 4 weeks when I saw the first signs of green. Which seems to long to me.
My worry is I have previously opened up a tray that had trich spores and am sure the little buggers are everywhere!
Heres what I did for these 2 trays
- spawn was wbs soaked for 36 hrs, then rinsed, simmered, rinsed, drained, loaded into jars (1 pint) tyvec lids+foil, pc'd 2hrs 15psi. - inoculated with spore syrige in still air box. Left to colonise. - Sub was hpoo, verm, gypsum, ground oyster shells (Calcium carbonate) ph was about 7.5. 1 batch was pasturised in jars in pc boil for 5min, leave for 30mins, boil for 5 leave for 2hrs (as per RR and roadkill posts) the other was sterilized in jars for 2hrs in PC (kind of following mostermitch's sterilise everything approach) - I then seperately (1 day apart) sprayed the room and still air box with lysol and then made the trays up in a still air box. Emptied the jars of sub into a clean bowl, mixed in the spawn and placed into tub, put lids on with micropore tape over 6 1/4" holes in lids.
I think my possible points of failure are
1. spawn had trich in it 2. low spawn ratio 3. trays wern't properly clean 4. bowl wasn't properly clean.
I'm a little confused about the environment for making up trays. I apreciate that it's not sterile, but I though part of the reason for pasturising the sub was to kill off trich spores and save good bacteria? After pasturising my sub (killing trich spores?)I would have thought I still need to protect it from any trich spores that may get in whilst making the tray up?
I was really trying to cover of the possibility of points 3&4 being the cause. It probably has more to do with too low a spawn ratio which I will definately up this time.
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shaggydogman
Stranger


Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 672
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Re: Cleaning containers for reuse after trich [Re: Slimz]
#7689327 - 11/28/07 06:55 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Slimz said: Bleach / Vinegar should work. Use 1 cup bleach, 1 cup vinegar and 1 gallon water.
The wife says thanks for the recipie!! She found my spray bottle and tried it on the kitchen worktops. We have glossy laminate worktops and this stuff does a superb job on em. The bleach cleans and the vinegar stops streaking!
Gonna save me loads on cleaning stuff!!
-------------------- Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.
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Sillicybin
Registered: 02/14/05
Posts: 2,134
Loc:
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Re: Cleaning containers for reuse after trich [Re: shaggydogman]
#7689376 - 11/28/07 07:22 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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You do want to REDUCE the amount of possible trich spores as much as possible, but there's no possible way to eliminate them completely.
The key is using enough spawn. As long as there is enough mushroom mycelial mass, it will surround and devour nearly any invaders (even trich) as long as the infection is small and surrounded.
Problems occur when the spawn ratio is too low, and the mushroom mycelium can't grow fast enough to surround an invader - mold grows faster than mushroom mycelium, so it has an unfair advantage. Once trich gains a foothold (even a colony the size of a few grains of rice) it's hard to stop.
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veda_sticks
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Registered: 07/29/07
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Re: Cleaning containers for reuse after trich [Re: Sillicybin]
#7689391 - 11/28/07 07:30 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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shaggydogman
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Re: Cleaning containers for reuse after trich [Re: Sillicybin]
#7689408 - 11/28/07 07:41 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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My spawn ratios will definately be higher next time and my trays will be spotless!
Thanks again. My understanding is increased
-------------------- Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.
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BlargIAmDead
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Registered: 11/04/07
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Re: Cleaning containers for reuse after trich [Re: shaggydogman]
#7689586 - 11/28/07 09:12 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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About the vinegar and bleach recipe...It's from wikipedia so take it with a grain of salt but it claims that if you mix bleach and vinegar you get chlorine gas which is pretty harmful to living organisms. Again, I have no hard proof of this, but just be careful man.
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shaggydogman
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Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 672
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Re: Cleaning containers for reuse after trich [Re: BlargIAmDead]
#7689644 - 11/28/07 09:28 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Good call, thanks 
I measured the water then added the bleach and then the vinegar.
Just found this on a home brewing site which confirms your warning. Seems home brewers and mycologists have a common hatres of nasties...
DO NOT MIX BLEACH AND VINEGAR ON THIER OWN! Add the bleach then the vinegar to the water, making sure bleach and vinegar do not come into direct contact with each other.
Edited by shaggydogman (11/28/07 10:02 AM)
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Nibin
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Re: Cleaning containers for reuse after trich [Re: shaggydogman]
#7690876 - 11/28/07 02:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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If you go to a medical supply company you will find that they sell a liquid in a spray bottle that is disinfectant and fungicide and leaves no residue. Just clean the surface, spray on and let dry.
It's expensive as hell (20 bucks a bottle) but it is what dentists use to sanitize surfaces.
And it is probably overkill.
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