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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms?
    #7689871 - 11/28/07 10:49 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

For quite some time now, I've advised against the use of aluminum trays for cultivation of mushrooms due to the fact that certain species of mycelium produce metabolites that actually dissolve holes into the trays, usually prior to first flush.

However, as far as I could research, nobody had ever sent off a mushroom to a lab for testing after growing from an aluminum tray. Below is a tray that was used to hold a shiitake substrate. When the project fruited, I sent a mushroom to the lab for analysis. The results are next to the picture of the tray below. It appears that the aluminum content of the mushroom was very low, so apparently the metal is not conducted into the fruits.

There are other reasons not to use aluminum trays, such as the increased risk of bottom pinning due to the air exchange down there once the holes are created. It also reflects light down the sides of the tray. However, it does not appear that the aluminum is transferred to the fruit, even though the metabolites dissolve it.
RR



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OfflineManna Inspired
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7689901 - 11/28/07 10:59 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I have always been uncomfortable w/ the aluminum becoming part of my colonized substrate. When dunking I would notice that the aluminum was attached and would give off a moldy look. Trash bags work wonderfully for me. Nice to know, for those who use aluminum, that it doesn't transfer to the fruit.


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InvisibleSlimz
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Manna Inspired]
    #7689913 - 11/28/07 11:03 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

So aluminum does not transfer.. awesome.. Thanks for taking the time and money to get that information.

At least now we know its OK to eat the fruits.


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Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles.

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Offlineabesh
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7689920 - 11/28/07 11:06 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

This is great news, and thanks for spending time and money to share this with us.

I was wondering if there are only some species that eat through, because I just did 2 trays with cubes (rye to coir) and it did not eat do anything to the tray (I even had to leave it in the incubator for a few weeks longer as I had no room in my FC)????

Also maybe it could be the tray I got (I think it was Glad), had some kind of a coating on it. Like they coat the insides of a soda can, so the soda does not corrode it.

I see it was shiitake myc that did that, and I was wondering if all or most other species are known to do that too????


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OfflineWeBeBad
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Manna Inspired]
    #7689937 - 11/28/07 11:13 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Do you know what kind of reaction the aluminum is undergoing after it's been attacked by metabolites? Does this mean the aluminum products remain localized in the mycelium since they weren't absorbed into the fruitbody or were they absorbed by the mycelium at all? I'm hopeful someone will chime in with an explanation.

Also, RR, what did this sort of analysis cost? This sort of service might be convenient in the future.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: WeBeBad]
    #7689985 - 11/28/07 11:27 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Many, but not all strains of cubensis will eat holes in the aluminum. Oysters don't seem to do so, nor does Lion's Mane. Shiitake will every time, that's why that project was selected, and then sent off for testing.

The metals test wasn't cheap, but I also needed it to make sure there were no heavy metals in the printing inks used to print the phonebooks, before recommending them as a cultivation substrate in my recycling video, now in production. Printing inks in the US are soybean based, as they are in most of the developed world. However, I'm sure some lead containing inks are still in use in less developed parts of the world, so printed paper from those areas should not be used as substrate.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Offlinerodfarva
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7690159 - 11/28/07 11:57 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Way to contribute to our understanding. This was a great hypothisis and conclusion ( being that we are not poisoning ourselves! ):thumbup:


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OfflineFraggin
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: rodfarva]
    #7690259 - 11/28/07 12:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Did you discover anything else from your lab results?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Fraggin]
    #7690303 - 11/28/07 12:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Fraggin said:
Did you discover anything else from your lab results?




I'm impressed with the calcium content of the mushroom, especially considering it was grown on paper. It could be due to the lime used in paper making.

I'm also a bit worried about the 100 ppm chromium. I'll have to do some checking to see what the safe level in food is. I haven't had time to do that yet. I don't know if it came from the printing inks or not. I wonder if chromium is used in aluminum making?
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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OfflineFraggin
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7690379 - 11/28/07 12:35 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

Fraggin said:
Did you discover anything else from your lab results?




I'm impressed with the calcium content of the mushroom, especially considering it was grown on paper. It could be due to the lime used in paper making.

I'm also a bit worried about the 100 ppm chromium. I'll have to do some checking to see what the safe level in food is. I haven't had time to do that yet. I don't know if it came from the printing inks or not. I wonder if chromium is used in aluminum making?
RR




Chromium is used in production of anodized aluminum, but I'm not certain whether it is used in the production of aluminum cookware....

Here's a fact taken from : http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts7.html


Has the federal government made recommendations to protect human health?
EPA has set a limit of 100 µg chromium(III) and chromium(VI) per liter of drinking water (100 µg/L).

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has set limits of 500 µg water soluble chromium(III) compounds per cubic meter of workplace air (500 µg/m3), 1,000 µg/m3 for metallic chromium(0) and insoluble chromium compounds, and 52 µg/m3 for chromium(VI) compounds for 8-hour work shifts and 40-hour work weeks.


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InvisibleSlimz
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Fraggin]
    #7690473 - 11/28/07 01:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)



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Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess)

This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true.
The Pharmacratic Inquisition
Best Thread Ever ! ! !

:pm: me if you have questions about lasers

Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles.

FeelFamily resident tech guru


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Slimz]
    #7690548 - 11/28/07 01:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Haven't you ever heard-of/seen Erin Brockovich? :lol:

Seriously though, hexavalent chromium (chromium(VI)) is a very dangerous genotoxic (mutation causing) carcinogen.  Trivalent chromium (chromium(III)), on the other hand, is what you find in vitamin supplements.


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:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

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------------------------------------
figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.


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InvisibleSlimz
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: mycocurious]
    #7690578 - 11/28/07 01:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

LOL yeah i've seen it... thats why i wanted to set the record straight...


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Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess)

This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true.
The Pharmacratic Inquisition
Best Thread Ever ! ! !

:pm: me if you have questions about lasers

Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles.

FeelFamily resident tech guru


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Slimz]
    #7690809 - 11/28/07 02:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Food sources of chromium include processed meats, whole grain products, cereals, spices (black pepper, thyme), mushrooms, brown sugar, coffee, tea, beer, broccoli, and spices.




Cool. Glad to see that. Thanks for the link slimz.
RR


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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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InvisibleSlimz
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7690827 - 11/28/07 02:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

yeah it popped up in a google search for / chromium mushrooms / i google everything...


--------------------
Lazy Drywall Tek (no powdery mess)

This series will blow your mind and confirm what you already know to be true.
The Pharmacratic Inquisition
Best Thread Ever ! ! !

:pm: me if you have questions about lasers

Although i may advise others in a general way regarding all types of mushroom grows, and may even post question from other forums about growing "active" mushrooms, i only grow non-"active" mushrooms and edibles.

FeelFamily resident tech guru


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Slimz]
    #7691129 - 11/28/07 03:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah thanks RR that goes to show a true Mycologist. One who spends time and research in all aspects of growing.

Thanks again,

11


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: eleven34]
    #7691178 - 11/28/07 04:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

eleven34 said:
Yeah thanks RR that goes to show a true Mycologist. One who spends time and research in all aspects of growing.

Thanks again,

11




And just spent a buttload of money to make sure we weren't poisoning ourselves. Thanks Roger!


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: somestupidnewbie]
    #7691298 - 11/28/07 04:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Chromium is really considered an "ultra-trace" mineral, since it is needed in such small quantities to perform its essential functions. The blood contains about 20 parts per billion (ppb), a fraction of a microgram. Even though it is in such small concentrations, this mineral is important to health. There are about 6 mg. of chromium stored in the bodies of people who live in the United States; tissue levels of people in other countries are usually higher, and those higher levels tend to be associated with a lower incidence of diabetes and atherosclerosis. There is less hardening of the arteries in people of Asian countries, who it is estimated have five times higher chromium tissue levels than Americans. People of Near Eastern countries who have about four times the average U.S. levels and African people who have twice our chromium levels seem to experience less diabetes than Americans. These higher tissue levels of chromium are due primarily to better soil supplies and a less refined diet. Chromium may be only one of the factors accounting for the differences in rates of diabetes and atherosclerosis between cultures, but it is probably a major one.

Chromium is a difficult mineral to absorb. Figures range from 0.5‚3 percent absorption for the inorganic chromium salts often found in food. The organic complexes of chromium, such as GTF, are absorbed better, at about 10‚20 percent. The kidneys clear any excess from the blood, while much of chromium intake is eliminated through the feces. This mineral is stored in many parts of the body, including the skin, fat, brain, muscles, spleen, kidneys, and testes.




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OfflineVisionsToReality
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: somestupidnewbie]
    #7691331 - 11/28/07 04:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

somestupidnewbie said:
Quote:

eleven34 said:
Yeah thanks RR that goes to show a true Mycologist. One who spends time and research in all aspects of growing.

Thanks again,

11




And just spent a buttload of money to make sure we weren't poisoning ourselves. Thanks Roger!



How much did it cost? I missed that.


--------------------
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: VisionsToReality]
    #10128566 - 04/08/09 08:31 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Ok, I ran across this from someones earlier question about casing in aluminum trays - but after reading this I don't see a consensus. I could be blind. The lab report just states "chromium", but doesn't specify hexavalent chromium (chromium(VI)) or trivalent chromium (chromium(III)) - the conversation just jumped to chromium in food and vitamin supplements. If we don't know which kind of chromium was in the mushrooms, how do we know if it really is safe?


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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10861368 - 08/14/09 07:33 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Hope you don't mind if I bump this thread. I was curious if you've advanced your understanding of aluminum and shrooms. I saw a study that suggested aluminum may stimulate growth in some fungi. They concluded the opposite of your lab results, that increased aluminum content in substrate did increase aluminum found in the fruit.

You think the myc is taking up the aluminum in vermiculite? Did you get that lab test for free? Can you test brf+verm fruits against cooked brown rice alone?

link
http://www.springerlink.com/content/t00p107877600413/


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: bmoctta]
    #10861496 - 08/14/09 07:56 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Yea when I saw my Myc eating my Aluminum trays it find of freaked me out a little. I mean it's dissolving a very durable metal.

Very good to see some took the time to research this more in depth.
Too bad this thread is like 2years old..

:thumbup::thumbup:



The best fruit tray I've found are food grade food pans, they come in black & are very heavy duty. They only cost about 3-5 dollar a piece & they will last for ever. You can even buy lids for then if you wish.

Like this,

This is a 1/3 size Carlisle food pan witch hold 5.5Q & is 6" deep.


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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: SRHooM]
    #10861572 - 08/14/09 08:06 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I think you're missing the point


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: SRHooM]
    #10861589 - 08/14/09 08:09 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

The test was a little over $100.  Personally, even though the jury is still out on aluminum's connection to Alzheimer disease, I don't want to be eating it.  I was glad to see that even though the mycelium ate lots of holes in the tray, it didn't uptake to the mushrooms. 

There's other drawbacks to having the mycelium eat holes in the trays, not the least of which is it encourages bottom pinning.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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InvisibleSRHooM
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: anonjon]
    #10861650 - 08/14/09 08:22 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

anonjon said:
I think you're missing the point




Hmm, what point is that? I'm pretty sure I understood what I read..
Wanna fill me in?



Aluminum & Alzheimer disease that's not good.. you think they would have that figured out by now. Seeing as that Aluminum is everywhere.


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: SRHooM]
    #10861679 - 08/14/09 08:28 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

dude how much mushroom does one have to eat to get alzheimers disease, i was told aluminum lasts one grow.  so be it, ill buy more, i get 16 by 11 inch and 4 deep trays for a buck each, and it keeps me from cleaning them.  use n toss.  the jars cost me the same about for pints, but i dont clean em so i keep em  :smile:


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: SRHooM]
    #10861706 - 08/14/09 08:33 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

What I got from this thread is that although mushrooms can be grown in aluminum pans, it's not the best medium. And that if aluminum is your only option; you might consider lining it with a black plastic bag.


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I've come to believe that the heart is the filter of the enlightened mind. Epilson Lyrae


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: shangrila]
    #10861715 - 08/14/09 08:35 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Where does it say eating mushroom's grown using Aluminum tray's will cause Alzheimer disease?


Just Google "Aluminum & Alzheimer's disease" They basically have no idea if there's a connection. They said that some Alzheimer patients had Aluminum traces in there brain. They also said they it could be from the way the tested the samples.


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Epilson Lyrae]
    #10861720 - 08/14/09 08:36 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

And that if you are stuck with using them, there's little reason to worry about consuming the mushrooms.


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Epilson Lyrae]
    #10861734 - 08/14/09 08:37 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

heyy looks who drinks milwaukeeee, screw the lining, speaking for myself of course.  i dont like extra work for that kind of details.  rather invest energy in grain lc's and prints to store and all.  but thats just me.  but if your willing to put lining you might aswell use plastic and then clean.  but hey to each his own.  cheers!


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Doc_T]
    #10861743 - 08/14/09 08:40 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Doc_T said:
And that if you are stuck with using them, there's little reason to worry about consuming the mushrooms.





i dont know if its the beer, but i dont understand what your saying, i tried but nahh i cant.  its sounds like your ending someones phrase but i cant seem to find it, sorry  :smile:


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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: shangrila]
    #10863845 - 08/15/09 07:36 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe I bumped the wrong thread. I wasn't concerned about getting sick, I was just fascinated by the idea that the myc might be 'eating' the vermiculite as RR suggested in another thread. That study I linked to concluded that aluminum was stimulating the growth of certain fungi. So I got to wondering if it might be true for cubes as well. According to Wikipedia verm contains Aluminum, Iron, and Magnesium.

I experimented a little with different ratios of brf to verm and found that the higher ratio of verm colonized faster and fruited sooner. I had assumed it was just a matter of cake density. But now I'm wondering if something in the verm is acting like some kind of fertilizer or catalyst.

Just curious is all.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: anonjon]
    #10863870 - 08/15/09 07:56 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I wish we had a way to test to see what it is in verm that the mycelium is consuming.  I know from experience that the verm is being 'eaten' by the mycelium because of how much brf cakes shrink over time.  After six or seven flushes, they're about 1/3 original size, which means they've lost way more than the brown rice flour.  In addition, bulk substrates with verm perform far better than without, even though other bulk substrate materials often hold as much water as verm.

We know mycelium can absorb the minerals in gypsum, so it only makes sense they're absorbing and using the minerals in vermiculite too.  Another clue is that brf cakes made with sawdust instead of verm under perform cakes made with vermiculite, even when used for wood loving species such as oyster and shiitake.  Since sawdust and verm both hold the same amount of water, it isn't the reservoir action of the verm.
RR


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10863944 - 08/15/09 08:42 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Seems like the same lab could analyze before and after samples of the verm, see what changes.


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11619389 - 12/09/09 06:53 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I am skeptical of the idea that other mushrooms will behave the same way as these shiitake when it comes to heavy metal uptake. I swear I can remember reading stamets saying something about some mushrooms up-taking specific heavy metals more than others (in ggmm if I recall).

Not to disparage your research, but I would not use this data to definitively tell anyone to use aluminum trays for anything outside of shiitake. I will still personally recommend against aluminum trays.

Also, my oysters did eat aluminum.


--------------------
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11619452 - 12/09/09 07:01 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Not to disparage your research, but I would not use this data to definitively tell anyone to use aluminum trays for anything outside of shiitake. I will still personally recommend against aluminum trays.




I've been advising against aluminum for many years, and still do.  This report didn't change anything.
RR


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11619496 - 12/09/09 07:08 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

Not to disparage your research, but I would not use this data to definitively tell anyone to use aluminum trays for anything outside of shiitake. I will still personally recommend against aluminum trays.




I've been advising against aluminum for many years, and still do.  This report didn't change anything.
RR




I'm a little confused here.

would you advise against using aluminum trays for health reasons?


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Citizen13]
    #11619510 - 12/09/09 07:10 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

No, I advise against aluminum trays because the holes the mycelium eats will cause bottom pinning. 

I sent the sample for testing because I was worried about uptake and the possible health implications.  The test with shiitake was negative.  Who knows, it may have been different with another species.
RR


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11619520 - 12/09/09 07:12 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
No, I advise against aluminum trays because the holes the mycelium eats will cause bottom pinning. 

I sent the sample for testing because I was worried about uptake and the possible health implications.  The test with shiitake was negative.  Who knows, it may have been different with another species.
RR




touche,

i guess it's time for a resident lab technician to answer this question once and for all then :laugh:


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Citizen13]
    #11619607 - 12/09/09 07:27 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

would exposing a small chunk of cubensis mushroom to enough heat/air/etc to destroy all psilocybin cause a the sample test to be faulty/inconclusive?


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Citizen13]
    #11619634 - 12/09/09 07:33 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

No, you could bake it until it turns to charcoal and then analyze for aluminum.


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Doc_T]
    #11619786 - 12/09/09 08:02 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

not if you are testing for heavy metals... but I would advise against doing this test for strictly legal safety reasons.


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Citizen13]
    #11621748 - 12/10/09 06:28 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Citizen13 said:
would exposing a small chunk of cubensis mushroom to enough heat/air/etc to destroy all psilocybin cause a the sample test to be faulty/inconclusive?




Whats the concept here? Destroy the actives so you can legally handle it in the lab?


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: anonjon]
    #11621750 - 12/10/09 06:29 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

anonjon said:
Quote:

Citizen13 said:
would exposing a small chunk of cubensis mushroom to enough heat/air/etc to destroy all psilocybin cause a the sample test to be faulty/inconclusive?




Whats the concept here? Destroy the actives so you can legally handle it in the lab?




yessur. stupid? probably.


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Citizen13]
    #11621759 - 12/10/09 06:35 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Citizen13 said:
Quote:

anonjon said:
Quote:

Citizen13 said:
would exposing a small chunk of cubensis mushroom to enough heat/air/etc to destroy all psilocybin cause a the sample test to be faulty/inconclusive?




Whats the concept here? Destroy the actives so you can legally handle it in the lab?




yessur. stupid? probably.




Not really, if you can do the lab work yourself without having to tell anyone what the tissue is.


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: anonjon]
    #11622015 - 12/10/09 08:26 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

If the lab uses Gas Chromeograph mass spectomotry for analisys, I don't think you could hide anything....

Otherwise one could experiment with using Aluminum Reagent AluVer 3 in a water solution to check for the presence of aluminum. But, Getting a decent color in a solution may be a challenge. You may also need to do tests for the mycelium, metabolites and the fruiting bodies seperatley.  Taking primordia may be a better idea to avoid working with a dark purple to black liquid.

If the experiments proved negative results on the detection of aluminum, then the first question would be, where and how could the aluminum be detected and is it still aluminum when it is taken up by the mycelium.

Therefore, a GCMS test would be the most efficient method of testing.


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Fraggin]
    #11623960 - 12/10/09 03:02 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I think RR had a metals test done on his. I suspect it is a cheaper test and I know it would not show chemical compounds like psilocin/cybin/ect.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11624547 - 12/10/09 04:27 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Correct, it was a heavy metals test.  However, don't send anything illegal to a lab, especially with the paper trail you have to send along with the sample.
RR


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11624725 - 12/10/09 04:50 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Correct, it was a heavy metals test.  However, don't send anything illegal to a lab, especially with the paper trail you have to send along with the sample.
RR




i was just asking out of curiousity, my balls, although big, are nowhere near large enough to do something like that.


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Citizen13]
    #11625205 - 12/10/09 05:59 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Yea I was just correcting the above posters on the correct tests that were/would need to be administered. I probibly should have re-iterated that, though "less risky" than people were saying, it still is quite a foolish thing to do.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11625750 - 12/10/09 07:25 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SRHooM said:
Yea when I saw my Myc eating my Aluminum trays it find of freaked me out a little. I mean it's dissolving a very durable metal.





very durable is a bit of an understatement. aluminum oxide is what sapphires and rubies are made of.  Its the second hardest natural mineral known to science.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I wish we had a way to test to see what it is in verm that the mycelium is consuming.  I know from experience that the verm is being 'eaten' by the mycelium because of how much brf cakes shrink over time.  After six or seven flushes, they're about 1/3 original size, which means they've lost way more than the brown rice flour.  In addition, bulk substrates with verm perform far better than without, even though other bulk substrate materials often hold as much water as verm.

We know mycelium can absorb the minerals in gypsum, so it only makes sense they're absorbing and using the minerals in vermiculite too.  Another clue is that brf cakes made with sawdust instead of verm under perform cakes made with vermiculite, even when used for wood loving species such as oyster and shiitake.  Since sawdust and verm both hold the same amount of water, it isn't the reservoir action of the verm.
RR




That makes sense since fungi where the first organism on land.  fungi made the humas for plants from rocks.


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: stalk_of_fennel]
    #11626104 - 12/10/09 08:13 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Very trippy this thread has become.


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Epilson Lyrae]
    #11628895 - 12/11/09 09:12 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Heavy metal tests for testing home water supply can be purchased easily. Most of them do test for aluminum as well, but they are designed to be used with mostly clear liquids.

I'm not sure what method could be used to liquify a whole batch of mushrooms, casings and all then somehow clean the solution up enough to use a heavy metals test.

The other question that comes to mind is the cut off levels that the tests use. We know that when aluminum trays are used, some of the aluminum is gone after a few flushes. So, the question is, where can it be found?


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Fraggin]
    #11628980 - 12/11/09 09:46 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Fraggin said:
We know that when aluminum trays are used, some of the aluminum is gone after a few flushes. So, the question is, where can it be found?





Eat a flush, then send yourself off for testing! :thumbup: :crazy: :crazy2:


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: 13eetleJuice]
    #11629109 - 12/11/09 10:16 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

The reason I posed the question is because I have read that some mushroom's mycelim can absorb heavy metals then release them into the air through the gills and fruiting bodies....

I just didn't want to say it without having the source handy to cite the data.


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Fraggin]
    #11629896 - 12/11/09 12:49 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Fraggin said:
The reason I posed the question is because I have read that some mushroom's mycelim can absorb heavy metals then release them into the air through the gills and fruiting bodies....




What was the source?


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Fraggin]
    #11630100 - 12/11/09 01:21 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)



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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Sillicybin]
    #11630301 - 12/11/09 01:48 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Sillicybin said:
Quote:

Fraggin said:
The reason I posed the question is because I have read that some mushroom's mycelim can absorb heavy metals then release them into the air through the gills and fruiting bodies....




What was the source?





I don't recall...  That's why I didn't mention it to begin with.

IT may have been supporting material for Ground Zero's projects in New Orleans.


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: stalk_of_fennel]
    #11630304 - 12/11/09 01:48 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

holy shit.


--------------------
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"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Fraggin]
    #11630657 - 12/11/09 02:38 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Fraggin said:
The reason I posed the question is because I have read that some mushroom's mycelim can absorb heavy metals then release them into the air through the gills and fruiting bodies....




I'm not familiar with this in fungi, but I know that certain species of plants can release various heavy metals in the form of volatile oxygen compounds such as coordinated sulfoxides. Many of these plants must be genetically engineered to do this -- it's a big area of research in phytoremediation and chromium decontamination.

My 2 cents: don't use aluminum for your tubs. Better safe than sorry.


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Jabbawaya]
    #11630778 - 12/11/09 02:59 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks... Glad to hear some more input on it.


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: stalk_of_fennel]
    #11630962 - 12/11/09 03:29 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

stalk_of_fennel said:
not quit it but i remembered reading this on wikipedia about Boletus edulis




Not sure about everyone else, but I found the article that was cited by the paragraph you quoted very interesting:
http://www.mycologia.org/cgi/content/abstract/99/2/161


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Sillicybin]
    #11631079 - 12/11/09 03:47 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

So they propose that Boletus mushrooms are sequestering metals such as Cd using phytochelatins, possibly as a defense mechanism? That's a new way of looking at it. Plants do this too, but I wonder why.

If the metals are affecting the cell's redox state, then glutatione would probably be oxidized -- which I think they observed -- and clean up the free electrons. That is, it would seem that the metal isn't good for the mushroom. But damn, that's a lot of speculation on my part.


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Edited by Jabbawaya (12/11/09 03:53 PM)


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #12567246 - 05/15/10 12:48 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
For quite some time now, I've advised against the use of aluminum trays for cultivation of mushrooms due to the fact that certain species of mycelium produce metabolites that actually dissolve holes into the trays, usually prior to first flush.

However, as far as I could research, nobody had ever sent off a mushroom to a lab for testing after growing from an aluminum tray.  Below is a tray that was used to hold a shiitake substrate.  When the project fruited, I sent a mushroom to the lab for analysis.  The results are next to the picture of the tray below.  It appears that the aluminum content of the mushroom was very low, so apparently the metal is not conducted into the fruits. 

There are other reasons not to use aluminum trays, such as the increased risk of bottom pinning due to the air exchange down there once the holes are created.  It also reflects light down the sides of the tray.  However, it does not appear that the aluminum is transferred to the fruit, even though the metabolites dissolve it.
RR

 




why would it transfer to the fruit?

or why doesnt it? I was wondering the same thing too.

I wonder which metabolites make it what aluminum compound


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: navyseals101]
    #12567517 - 05/15/10 02:05 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I'm finally glad to know it was the metabolites that were producing holes in my aluminum trays.




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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: Jitsu]
    #12567651 - 05/15/10 02:46 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

since this was bumped from the depths
im curious to know how much the lab test cost ?


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: bmoctta]
    #19688837 - 03/12/14 11:23 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

If your sub is acidic, near 4.5 ph(see http://www.seachem.jp/support/AluminumSolubilityToxicity.pdf for more info), aluminum becomes water soluble and binds to phosphorous making it biologically unavailable to plants and possibly shrooms(not sure). Phosphorous being very important to shrooms, I'd think you would want to avoid it, and avoid composting with the spent cakes.  I've seen what naturally occurring aluminum heavy mineral rocks does to soil, it makes it almost lifeless.  Vermiculite has a lot of Aluminum odixe by the way.



Here is one article stating Aluminum binds to P
http://www.noble.org/ag/soils/phosphorusbehavior/
"Below pH 5.5, aluminum (Al3+) is abundant and will react more readily with the phosphates. Calcium phosphates are relatively more water-soluble than aluminum phosphates. The lack of water solubility of aluminum phosphates means that these compounds are not readily available for plant use. In other words, in strongly acid soils, most of the P is bound and not released. This means the warehouse is locked and no P can get out."

Also according to Hulda Clarke, a biological researcher and author in the book "The cure for all diseases", the bad forms of chromium build up in the prostate and the body has no natural way to exude them. 

My own opinion: if you accumulate chromium your prostate might enlarge.

If your prostate enlarges it will put pressure on your bladder, causing you to wake up and pee in the middle of the night for the rest of your life, sometimes 3x per night.  Doesn't sound like fun does it, I know someone with an enlarged prostate who has to deal with this reality.


Edited by invitro (03/13/14 01:40 AM)


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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: invitro]
    #19689027 - 03/13/14 12:17 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

This thread is 6 years old, and the person you are replying to has not loggen on in 4 years, 10 months......nice


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Offlineinvitro


Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 2,529
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Re: Aluminum Contamination of Mushrooms? [Re: PussyFart]
    #19689041 - 03/13/14 12:23 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

It ok to bump an old thread in this case because the material is relevant to the health of the general public.

I wasn't responding to that particular person but to the audience in general.


Edited by invitro (03/13/14 01:35 AM)


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