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Invisiblegoldieman
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Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 296
Loc: midwest
is full colonization before spawning absolutely necessary with grains?
    #7687154 - 11/27/07 05:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

sorry for the long header. but i was thinking. i was reading some of agar's post about substrate mix and he mentioned adding sterilized wbs to poo/straw and other things before spawning. if thats the case then why not spawn when jars are 60-80% colonized, granted they don't show signs of contamination, and save some of the fully colonized spawn to sprinkle atop the the mix. only reason being is sometimes it takes extra long for that last amount of grain to colonize when the rest of the jar is ready to go. also you can then get more jars going faster as you're not waiting that extra 5-7 days for full colonization. it's not like there's not enough inoculation points to colonize the substrate.


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Invisiblegoldieman
On some other shit!


Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 296
Loc: midwest
Re: is full colonization before spawning absolutely necessary with grains? [Re: goldieman]
    #7687181 - 11/27/07 05:35 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

also, sometimes that little corner of the jar all the way at the bottom may have a little to much water content for colonization. sorry but i have yet to figure out how to get the perfect water content on wbs. iv'e just read that the outside of the grains should be dry before pc'ing. it just seems hard to do when i have like 10 jars full of wbs to prep.


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InvisibleLophosaurus
suruasohpol
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Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 8,744
Loc: CA Flag
Re: is full colonization before spawning absolutely necessary with grains? [Re: goldieman]
    #7687222 - 11/27/07 05:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I've had to spawn stalled jars to my bulk. I just cut off the uncolonized part and threw it away. It worked great for me.


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InvisibleGlacier Creek
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Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 384
Loc: PNW
Re: is full colonization before spawning absolutely necessary with grains? [Re: goldieman]
    #7687230 - 11/27/07 05:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Because any grain that is not fully colonized, and is exposed to air is most likely going to develope a contam before it is overtaken by the mycelium.

Remember that most contams can move faster than cube mycelium, so the only way beat it out is to let the grain fully colonize in a sterile enviroment before spawning to bulk, and or casing.

Bulk sub is pasteurized, then PH adjusted to make it hard for contams to take hold before the myc has completely colonized.

The same is done for the casing layer, and even then every precaution should be taken to keep things clean while working with an open tub, or fruiting chamber.


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Invisiblegoldieman
On some other shit!


Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 296
Loc: midwest
Re: is full colonization before spawning absolutely necessary with grains? [Re: Glacier Creek]
    #7687267 - 11/27/07 05:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

thats also why i said to top off with fully colonized grain, which i do even with fully colonized jars. my reasoning was instead of cutting off that uncolonized part, why not use it as a nutrient base. once that mycelium rips through the horse poo any and everything in between is being colonized. so why waste the uncolonized grains?


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Invisiblegoldieman
On some other shit!


Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 296
Loc: midwest
Re: is full colonization before spawning absolutely necessary with grains? [Re: goldieman]
    #7687312 - 11/27/07 05:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

in addition i've never checked the ph of my substrate and have had 1/4 lb. dry flushes without. maybe i'm just lucky but is that something you think i should be checking prior to spawning?


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InvisibleGlacier Creek
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Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 384
Loc: PNW
Re: is full colonization before spawning absolutely necessary with grains? [Re: goldieman]
    #7687670 - 11/27/07 07:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The problem with "topping it off" is that the spawn on top will no doubt be scraped and pushed around, leaving exposed parts of the grain. That advice actually comes from RR when I asked a very similiar question about a month ago.

Thats the reason I chimed in, is because I too had the same idea. Of course each person has different factors to deal with, and something like this may work perfect for you, and contam every time for others.

I think the point of what he was saying is that for the average person, leaving any exposed grain, or cake, without covering it with uncolonized bulk is more likely to contam than if it had been covered with ph adjusted, pasteurized bulk, or casing.

Even if the grain is fully colonized when in the jar, it should still not be allowed to be exposed to open air. Birthing and crumbling take its toll on the grain peices, and many are scraped back enough to expose some contam calling moist grain.

Of course this hobby is all about finding out what you can and cant get away with, while still producing efficiant results.


--------------------



Google "Earthly Info" to find my mushroom recipes. #1 baby.. yeah...

WARNING: All messages posted under this profile
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OfflinePr0_X
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Re: is full colonization before spawning absolutely necessary with grains? [Re: Glacier Creek]
    #7688513 - 11/27/07 10:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You do not want to spawn un-colonized grains because of the contamination factor. But! you can spawn from a partially colonized jar by simply scooping out the colonized grain and seperating it from the un-colonized, this would be pointless however unless you have a stalled jar or slow growth.

Ive used partly colonized spawn plenty of times without problems :smile:
i've even used partially colonized grain spawn from a trich jar and spawned sucesfully after treating it in h2o2.

So you answer is yes, but do not attempt to spawn un-colonized grains.
Take care


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cause you know, they're so numb anyway.
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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: is full colonization before spawning absolutely necessary with grains? [Re: Pr0_X]
    #7688564 - 11/27/07 10:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

First of all, the last part of a jar should colonize the fastest, not the slowest. The mycelium picks up speed as it grows, provided you're giving the right conditions. If a jar stalls, don't use it. Something caused it to stall out or it wouldn't have.

Second, don't use uncolonized grains in a bulk substrate. As said already, the grains will contaminate in the non-sterile bulk substrate.

Third, I strongly recommend against using a layer of colonized grains on top of a bulk substrate. If the grains dry out a bit and the mycelium dies back, you have the perfect environment to germinate trich and other mold spores the next time you mist. Always cover the last of the grains with a small amount of your bulk substrate material in order to protect them.
RR


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Invisiblegoldieman
On some other shit!


Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 296
Loc: midwest
Re: is full colonization before spawning absolutely necessary with grains? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7689840 - 11/28/07 10:42 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i've read many posts where people say to top off to ensure faster colonization on surface. i thought the idea was to create a barrier to prevent airborne contams from attacking the substrate. i've also read somewhere to top off poo/straw mix with extra poo to protect the straw from contams. i usually take your word as gold roger rabbit, and i'm sure you'reright i 'm just trying to understand better. also why would agar post a thread about adding sterilized grain to substrate before spawning. it contradicts what RR says about uncolonized grains contaminating from un-sterile bulk substrate. i guess the safest way to go is with fully colonized grains but the picture i envision seems like it would work things out considerably quicker.


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Invisiblegoldieman
On some other shit!


Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 296
Loc: midwest
Re: is full colonization before spawning absolutely necessary with grains? [Re: goldieman]
    #7689851 - 11/28/07 10:44 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

also anybody have a good idea to dry off hydrated grain before loading for PC. i mean about 10 quarts worth at a time. when i left it in a strainer overnight the whole batch smelled spoiled by next day. i tried to inoculate but the grains wouldn't take the LC. any advice on this is appreciated.thanx everyone for your informative input.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: is full colonization before spawning absolutely necessary with grains? [Re: goldieman]
    #7689902 - 11/28/07 11:01 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

My rye tek. I haven't posted this here in awhile.

Measure out your organic rye berries from a health food store, 1 cup for each quart jar you intend to make. Place them in a large pot. Rinse the heck out of them. Fill the pot with hot tap water, shake and swirl it around and pour it out. Do this three or four times until the water you pour out is clear. You'll be able to see when you have nice clean water to pour off instead of water filled with chaff and dirt. You want to now cover the rye berries with three times as much water as you have rye. Use half coffee(or less) and half plain water. In other words, if you have two inches of rye in the bottom of your pan, you should have six inches of water/coffee above that, for a total of 8 inches. Add one tablespoon of gypsum to the water and stir well. Leave this to sit for 12 to 24 hours.

After the soak, add water to nearly fill the kettle up, but leave room at the top for it to boil. Stir well and set the pot on the stove. Bring to a boil. Boil for ten minutes, then, WHILE BOILING, drain the contents through a very large colander. (spaghetti strainer) If you're making a large batch, you may need more than one colander. Tip the colander side to side to get the rye to drain as much of the water as you can. Then, shake the colander in order to 'toss' the grain. This will cause a lot of steam to rise from your rye. Do this a time or two, then let it sit for five minutes, then repeat. When all the moisture that will drip or evaporate from your rye has already done so, load your jars. The rye should look and feel dry to the touch when you load the jars. All the moisture you need is inside the grain. Fill jars no more than 2/3 full if they are to receive grain to grain transfers, or no more than 3/4 full if they are to be inoculated by spore syringe. Use a lid with a synthetic filter disk, polyfill, tyvek or similar. Cover with foil and PC the jars for at least 90 minutes at 15lbs. When the jars are cool, they're ready to inoculate.


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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Invisiblegoldieman
On some other shit!


Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 296
Loc: midwest
Re: is full colonization before spawning absolutely necessary with grains? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7690061 - 11/28/07 11:41 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

you are the man. im using wbs. but what i'm getting from your post RR is to let the grains dry to the touch before loading. can the same prep work for wbs as it does for rye? if i had access to rye berries i would use but i only have access to rye seed at my local feed supply.


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