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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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The man who mistook his belief for a fact.
#7685624 - 11/27/07 11:45 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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The human brain is geared to believe. It all happens in the brain.
The influence comes from:Perception,cognition,social consensus and emotional value. Using these we identify, explore,evaluate and compare a wide variety of beliefs; from our most mundane evaluations of the world to the most extraordinary visions that illuminate our purpose in life.
Truth is unknowable and unprovable. "Any mathematical or symbolic system of logic will always be incomplete and contain assumptions that cannot be proved."
So where does that leave you?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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ZShroom
Stranger
Registered: 07/08/07
Posts: 1,061
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7685654 - 11/27/07 11:54 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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saying son of a bitch why am i here, to suffer or be happy or both, just why, just how, is there an answer, do i exsist past this or has my body and my mind grown into a fashion of living that is totally suicidal and will end up killing the thing i call me
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BIGSWANG
oakridge gang, beotch
Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 19,397
Loc: Iwishanigga woods
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: ZShroom]
#7685660 - 11/27/07 11:55 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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-------------------- Admin Edit: Your signiture is inappropriate and has been removed. Do not harass other members in your signiture. Also refrain from posting links to scat pornography. If I see anything like that here again, you will be banned.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7685747 - 11/27/07 12:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: The human brain is geared to believe. It all happens in the brain.
The influence comes from:Perception,cognition,social consensus and emotional value. Using these we identify, explore,evaluate and compare a wide variety of beliefs; from our most mundane evaluations of the world to the most extraordinary visions that illuminate our purpose in life.
Truth is unknowable and unprovable. "Any mathematical or symbolic system of logic will always be incomplete and contain assumptions that cannot be proved."
So where does that leave you?
It leaves me with the notion that all we can really "know" is our current experience in the present moment. Everything else is a story created by memory and associations. Our existence in the mind relies on associations and we really seem to like connecting things into a bigger picture.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: ZShroom]
#7685788 - 11/27/07 12:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
ZShroom said: saying son of a bitch why am i here, to suffer or be happy or both, just why, just how, is there an answer, do i exsist past this or has my body and my mind grown into a fashion of living that is totally suicidal and will end up killing the thing i call me
Asking why is a loop and there are no answers. It's easy to drive oneself slightly mad asking. I'm living proof. But if what I'm guessing here is true then you will believe exactly what serves you in a skillful or unskillful manner and know it as truth. For me it's been a very long road to get to this place. Now it's all about seeing if I have what it takes to break old patterns and create new beliefs that get me much more of what I want. Retraining is hard work. You have to deal with lots of resistance and it's so easy to give in as that's what we have been doing all along. Myself, the culture, the species. It's a lot of hardwiring. But at least it's a proper challenge.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7685795 - 11/27/07 12:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said:
Quote:
Icelander said: The human brain is geared to believe. It all happens in the brain.
The influence comes from:Perception,cognition,social consensus and emotional value. Using these we identify, explore,evaluate and compare a wide variety of beliefs; from our most mundane evaluations of the world to the most extraordinary visions that illuminate our purpose in life.
Truth is unknowable and unprovable. "Any mathematical or symbolic system of logic will always be incomplete and contain assumptions that cannot be proved."
So where does that leave you?
It leaves me with the notion that all we can really "know" is our current experience in the present moment. Everything else is a story created by memory and associations. Our existence in the mind relies on associations and we really seem to like connecting things into a bigger picture.
Word up. Most of the time there are many layers of perception stacked up in our interactions with the present, but it seems to me that they are all empty.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Silversoul
Rhizome
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Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7685811 - 11/27/07 12:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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One of my biggest pet peeves is when someone uses the word "objective" in describing one of their opinions or beliefs. It's the height of egotism, IMO.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7685813 - 11/27/07 12:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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It leaves me with the notion that all we can really "know" is our current experience in the present moment.
But the now is belief also. The moment you think about or think in the present it becomes belief.
I'm not recommending anything but working with your beliefs. Not to transcend them but to create whatever you most enjoy and know it's a creation. If you know your beliefs are just that and not truth then you just work towards beliefs that make you happy. No other goal has a proof such as, being good, being right, going to heaven, going to hell, or cosmic evolution of the spirit. That's all pure speculation. Being happy is something you can experience right now and all you need is to believe it. If you can.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (11/27/07 12:36 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
#7685846 - 11/27/07 12:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said: One of my biggest pet peeves is when someone uses the word "objective" in describing one of their opinions or beliefs. It's the height of egotism, IMO.
They don't even have to use the word objective to peeve me. Just infer that their beliefs are real truth. This is why they are called "true believers". They come in all shapes and sizes (I'm often one of them) and they may play all kinds of subtle humility games but the ego is running the show.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7685862 - 11/27/07 12:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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So the point of your post was that it is unwise to hold up your beliefs to some sort of ultimate truth which cannot even be known? Better to just pick the beliefs that make you happy and ditch the ones that don't?
Sounds very pragmatic.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7685892 - 11/27/07 12:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah. It's great to explore ideas but in the end you work with what you know. Which is nothing,..........but your beliefs.
Think about this. People like to say we are all God, or we are God. Well by directing your beliefs as you choose, you in some sense become the creator, at least of your subjective reality. That ain't bad but it comes with a price tag.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome
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Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7686004 - 11/27/07 01:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Think about this. People like to say we are all God, or we are God. Well by directing your beliefs as you choose, you in some sense become the creator, at least of your subjective reality. That ain't bad but it comes with a price tag.
Indeed. I tend to think of my reality tunnel as a work of art. I want my artwork to be beautiful, cheerful, and elaborate. Others choose to believe in a pessimistic reality tunnel, with no hope and a bleak future. Their reality tunnel is no safer a gamble than mine, and makes them feel worse along the way. Optimism FTW!
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7686065 - 11/27/07 01:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I believe that my beliefs are objective reality. I know this is controversial in many philosophical circles, but at least proclaiming Objectivity is constructive to discourse and encourages others to challenge such assertions. A room full of thinkers agreeing to disagree is dreadfully boring to me.
-------------------- "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger
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Loc: Texas
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7686300 - 11/27/07 02:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Truth is unknowable and unprovable. "Any mathematical or symbolic system of logic will always be incomplete and contain assumptions that cannot be proved."
So where does that leave you?
who are you quoting? probably a bastardization of godel i bet
that is not at all what godel meant... mathematically rigorous "truth" does exist
what godel showed was that in any sufficiently complex system (such as mathematics) there exist statements that can neither be proved nor disproved and that this system cannot be shown to be logically self consistent from within the system
that still leaves plenty of statements that are rigorously "truth" within the system
if you don't agree with me then prove me wrong...
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Boots
Disenchanted
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It leaves me confused but content in knowing that so is everybody else.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Basilides]
#7689635 - 11/28/07 09:25 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Basilides said: I believe that my beliefs are objective reality. I know this is controversial in many philosophical circles, but at least proclaiming Objectivity is constructive to discourse and encourages others to challenge such assertions. A room full of thinkers agreeing to disagree is dreadfully boring to me.
I doubt you'll get many responses to a statement about objective truth when you provided no evidence for it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Flunked math.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Boundless
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Boots]
#7689640 - 11/28/07 09:27 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
But the now is belief also. The moment you think about or think in the present it becomes belief.
What if you don't think about it? Will it vanish?
Quote:
No other goal has a proof such as, being good, being right, going to heaven, going to hell, or cosmic evolution of the spirit. That's all pure speculation. Being happy is something you can experience right now and all you need is to believe it. If you can.
Would perfect happiness be a worthy goal then?
Quote:
So the point of your post was that it is unwise to hold up your beliefs to some sort of ultimate truth which cannot even be known? Better to just pick the beliefs that make you happy and ditch the ones that don't?
Can happiness be a form of truth? Does it need a form to be true?
Quote:
People like to say we are all God, or we are God. Well by directing your beliefs as you choose, you in some sense become the creator, at least of your subjective reality. That ain't bad but it comes with a price tag.
Could it be said that the price of the price tag equals the amount of negative thoughts and actions you do to yourself and others? For what could be the price of happy thoughts?
Quote:
who are you quoting? probably a bastardization of godel i bet
that is not at all what godel meant... mathematically rigorous "truth" does exist
what godel showed was that in any sufficiently complex system (such as mathematics) there exist statements that can neither be proved nor disproved and that this system cannot be shown to be logically self consistent from within the system
that still leaves plenty of statements that are rigorously "truth" within the system
if you don't agree with me then prove me wrong...
A system cannot prove itself correct, it can only be brought to truth, which is what the foundation of any system of thought or ideas rests upon.
Within the system you can test the worth of ideas by determining their effectiveness or validity. Effectiveness really means consistency. Ideas can be consistent in that they are reliable and that they provide a consistent outcome, but they may not be valid.
Even if an idea or proposition is invalid it may still have consistent results. Which shows that effectiveness does not measure truth, even though it may show itself to be dependable.
Validity can be measured simply by the truth it rests upon. If they agree, then the expression is valid.
The truth of validity is determined by our minds which made the system itself. Our minds being born in truth, Created by God, can elect to agree or disagree with him. When we agree, we are with the Truth. When we disagree, we cannot know the truth.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Boundless]
#7689698 - 11/28/07 09:57 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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What if you don't think about it? Will it vanish?
To believe one needs to think.
Would perfect happiness be a worthy goal then?
In my belief system and professed by much of humanity it is the most worthy.
Can happiness be a form of truth? Does it need a form to be true?
Not IMO.
Could it be said that the price of the price tag equals the amount of negative thoughts and actions you do to yourself and others? For what could be the price of happy thoughts?
The price tag is taking full responsibility for your feelings and the creation of them. Not many people would feel comfortable with that.
The truth of validity is determined by our minds which made the system itself. Our minds being born in truth, Created by God, can elect to agree or disagree with him. When we agree, we are with the Truth. When we disagree, we cannot know the truth.
Here you demonstrate your subjective beliefs about God and call that truth. You believe there is a God and so it must be "true". But I do not believe in a God and so that must also be "true". As you might be able to see there is a problem here. Neither of us have access to enough information to be able to know what is true about the existence of God, and what information we have is run through the filters of our individual minds which form beliefs based on our life experiences and programming along with other things.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7697056 - 11/29/07 10:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Truth is unknowable and unprovable.
"truth" is known where it is proven to exist
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