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InvisibleIcelander
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The man who mistook his belief for a fact.
    #7685624 - 11/27/07 01:45 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

The human brain is geared to believe. It all happens in the brain.

The influence comes from:Perception,cognition,social consensus and emotional value. Using these we identify, explore,evaluate and compare a wide variety of beliefs; from our most mundane evaluations of the world to the most extraordinary visions that illuminate our purpose in life.

Truth is unknowable and unprovable. "Any mathematical or symbolic system of logic will always be incomplete and contain assumptions that cannot be proved."

So where does that leave you?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleZShroom
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7685654 - 11/27/07 01:54 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

saying son of a bitch why am i here, to suffer or be happy or both, just why, just how, is there an answer, do i exsist past this or has my body and my mind grown into a fashion of living that is totally suicidal and will end up killing the thing i call me


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InvisibleBIGSWANG
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: ZShroom]
    #7685660 - 11/27/07 01:55 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)



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Admin Edit: Your signiture is inappropriate and has been removed.  Do not harass other members in your signiture.  Also refrain from posting links to scat pornography.  If I see anything like that here again, you will be banned.


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7685747 - 11/27/07 02:20 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
The human brain is geared to believe. It all happens in the brain.

The influence comes from:Perception,cognition,social consensus and emotional value. Using these we identify, explore,evaluate and compare a wide variety of beliefs; from our most mundane evaluations of the world to the most extraordinary visions that illuminate our purpose in life.

Truth is unknowable and unprovable. "Any mathematical or symbolic system of logic will always be incomplete and contain assumptions that cannot be proved."

So where does that leave you?




It leaves me with the notion that all we can really "know" is our current experience in the present moment. Everything else is a story created by memory and associations. Our existence in the mind relies on associations and we really seem to like connecting things into a bigger picture.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: ZShroom]
    #7685788 - 11/27/07 02:28 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ZShroom said:
saying son of a bitch why am i here, to suffer or be happy or both, just why, just how, is there an answer, do i exsist past this or has my body and my mind grown into a fashion of living that is totally suicidal and will end up killing the thing i call me




Asking why is a loop and there are no answers. It's easy to drive oneself slightly mad asking. I'm living proof. But if what I'm guessing here is true then you will believe exactly what serves you in a skillful or unskillful manner and know it as truth. For me it's been a very long road to get to this place. Now it's all about seeing if I have what it takes to break old patterns and create new beliefs that get me much more of what I want. Retraining is hard work. You have to deal with lots of resistance and it's so easy to give in as that's what we have been doing all along. Myself, the culture, the species. It's a lot of hardwiring. But at least it's a proper challenge.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineLion
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7685795 - 11/27/07 02:29 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
The human brain is geared to believe. It all happens in the brain.

The influence comes from:Perception,cognition,social consensus and emotional value. Using these we identify, explore,evaluate and compare a wide variety of beliefs; from our most mundane evaluations of the world to the most extraordinary visions that illuminate our purpose in life.

Truth is unknowable and unprovable. "Any mathematical or symbolic system of logic will always be incomplete and contain assumptions that cannot be proved."

So where does that leave you?




It leaves me with the notion that all we can really "know" is our current experience in the present moment. Everything else is a story created by memory and associations. Our existence in the mind relies on associations and we really seem to like connecting things into a bigger picture.


Word up.  Most of the time there are many layers of perception stacked up in our interactions with the present, but it seems to me that they are all empty. :heartpump:


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7685811 - 11/27/07 02:34 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

One of my biggest pet peeves is when someone uses the word "objective" in describing one of their opinions or beliefs. It's the height of egotism, IMO.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7685813 - 11/27/07 02:34 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

It leaves me with the notion that all we can really "know" is our current experience in the present moment.

But the now is belief also. The moment you think about or think in the present it becomes belief.

I'm not recommending anything but working with your beliefs. Not to transcend them but to create whatever you most enjoy and know it's a creation. If you know your beliefs are just that and not truth then you just work towards beliefs that make you happy. No other goal has a proof such as, being good, being right, going to heaven, going to hell, or cosmic evolution of the spirit. That's all pure speculation. Being happy is something you can experience right now and all you need is to believe it. If you can.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/27/07 02:36 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7685846 - 11/27/07 02:40 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
One of my biggest pet peeves is when someone uses the word "objective" in describing one of their opinions or beliefs. It's the height of egotism, IMO.




They don't even have to use the word objective to peeve me. Just infer that their beliefs are real truth. This is why they are called "true believers". They come in all shapes and sizes (I'm often one of them) and they may play all kinds of subtle humility games but the ego is running the show.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7685862 - 11/27/07 02:43 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

So the point of your post was that it is unwise to hold up your beliefs to some sort of ultimate truth which cannot even be known? Better to just pick the beliefs that make you happy and ditch the ones that don't?

Sounds very pragmatic.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7685892 - 11/27/07 02:48 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah. It's great to explore ideas but in the end you work with what you know. Which is nothing,:rofl2:..........but your beliefs.

Think about this. People like to say we are all God, or we are God. Well by directing your beliefs as you choose, you in some sense become the creator, at least of your subjective reality. That ain't bad but it comes with a price tag.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7686004 - 11/27/07 03:07 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Think about this. People like to say we are all God, or we are God. Well by directing your beliefs as you choose, you in some sense become the creator, at least of your subjective reality. That ain't bad but it comes with a price tag.



Indeed.  I tend to think of my reality tunnel as a work of art.  I want my artwork to be beautiful, cheerful, and elaborate.  Others choose to believe in a pessimistic reality tunnel, with no hope and a bleak future.  Their reality tunnel is no safer a gamble than mine, and makes them feel worse along the way.  Optimism FTW! :thumbup:


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7686065 - 11/27/07 03:26 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I believe that my beliefs are objective reality. I know this is controversial in many philosophical circles, but at least proclaiming Objectivity is constructive to discourse and encourages others to challenge such assertions. A room full of thinkers agreeing to disagree is dreadfully boring to me.


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7686300 - 11/27/07 04:47 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Truth is unknowable and unprovable. "Any mathematical or symbolic system of logic will always be incomplete and contain assumptions that cannot be proved."

So where does that leave you?




who are you quoting? probably a bastardization of godel i bet

that is not at all what godel meant... mathematically rigorous "truth" does exist

what godel showed was that in any sufficiently complex system (such as mathematics) there exist statements that can neither be proved nor disproved and that this system cannot be shown to be logically self consistent from within the system

that still leaves plenty of statements that are rigorously "truth" within the system

if you don't agree with me then prove me wrong... :wink:


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OfflineBoots
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7688206 - 11/27/07 11:02 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

It leaves me confused but content in knowing that so is everybody else.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Basilides]
    #7689635 - 11/28/07 11:25 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
I believe that my beliefs are objective reality. I know this is controversial in many philosophical circles, but at least proclaiming Objectivity is constructive to discourse and encourages others to challenge such assertions. A room full of thinkers agreeing to disagree is dreadfully boring to me.




I doubt you'll get many responses to a statement about objective truth when you provided no evidence for it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7689639 - 11/28/07 11:26 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Flunked math.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBoundless
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Boots]
    #7689640 - 11/28/07 11:27 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

But the now is belief also. The moment you think about or think in the present it becomes belief.




What if you don't think about it? Will it vanish?

Quote:

No other goal has a proof such as, being good, being right, going to heaven, going to hell, or cosmic evolution of the spirit. That's all pure speculation. Being happy is something you can experience right now and all you need is to believe it. If you can.




Would perfect happiness be a worthy goal then?

Quote:

So the point of your post was that it is unwise to hold up your beliefs to some sort of ultimate truth which cannot even be known? Better to just pick the beliefs that make you happy and ditch the ones that don't?




Can happiness be a form of truth? Does it need a form to be true?

Quote:

People like to say we are all God, or we are God. Well by directing your beliefs as you choose, you in some sense become the creator, at least of your subjective reality. That ain't bad but it comes with a price tag.




Could it be said that the price of the price tag equals the amount of negative thoughts and actions you do to yourself and others? For what could be the price of happy thoughts?

Quote:

who are you quoting? probably a bastardization of godel i bet

that is not at all what godel meant... mathematically rigorous "truth" does exist

what godel showed was that in any sufficiently complex system (such as mathematics) there exist statements that can neither be proved nor disproved and that this system cannot be shown to be logically self consistent from within the system

that still leaves plenty of statements that are rigorously "truth" within the system

if you don't agree with me then prove me wrong... :wink:




A system cannot prove itself correct, it can only be brought to truth, which is what the foundation of any system of thought or ideas rests upon.

Within the system you can test the worth of ideas by determining their effectiveness or validity. Effectiveness really means consistency. Ideas can be consistent in that they are reliable and that they provide a consistent outcome, but they may not be valid.

Even if an idea or proposition is invalid it may still have consistent results. Which shows that effectiveness does not measure truth, even though it may show itself to be dependable.

Validity can be measured simply by the truth it rests upon. If they agree, then the expression is valid.

The truth of validity is determined by our minds which made the system itself. Our minds being born in truth, Created by God, can elect to agree or disagree with him. When we agree, we are with the Truth. When we disagree, we cannot know the truth.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Boundless]
    #7689698 - 11/28/07 11:57 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

What if you don't think about it? Will it vanish?

To believe one needs to think.

Would perfect happiness be a worthy goal then?


In my belief system and professed by much of humanity it is the most worthy.

Can happiness be a form of truth? Does it need a form to be true?

Not IMO.

Could it be said that the price of the price tag equals the amount of negative thoughts and actions you do to yourself and others? For what could be the price of happy thoughts?

The price tag is taking full responsibility for your feelings and the creation of them. Not many people would feel comfortable with that.

The truth of validity is determined by our minds which made the system itself. Our minds being born in truth, Created by God, can elect to agree or disagree with him. When we agree, we are with the Truth. When we disagree, we cannot know the truth.

Here you demonstrate your subjective beliefs about God and call that truth. You believe there is a God and so it must be "true". But I do not believe in a God and so that must also be "true". As you might be able to see there is a problem here. Neither of us have access to enough information to be able to know what is true about the existence of God, and what information we have is run through the filters of our individual minds which form beliefs based on our life experiences and programming along with other things.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7697056 - 11/30/07 12:25 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Truth is unknowable and unprovable.





"truth" is known where it is proven to exist

:levitate:


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InvisibleZShroom
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7697400 - 11/30/07 02:51 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

where has it been proven to exist?:levitate:


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: ZShroom]
    #7697509 - 11/30/07 04:07 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

"truth" exists where it is deduced through a logically consistent set of rules

or

everywhere

:laugh:


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OfflineBoundless
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7698059 - 11/30/07 11:16 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


"truth" is known where it is proven to exist




How can something be proven in a temporal location, or in existence itself?

If truth exists as an object of existence, then what would make it different then any other object? Unless this object is beyond all other objects and and has them within itself, then it would be the only evaluator of what is true, and so anything within itself would not be able to prove that it is true, unless they had a part of the truth within itself.

And if they only have a part within themselves, then what are the parts that do not have the truth within them? Either they don't exist, or they are worthless, or BOTH.

If truth is an object, which means it has some kind of form. Then what formulates it? What can define it?

What gives it the power to uphold itself, to make itself real?

How did the object come into existence? If it always was and always will be, it must be perfect. And if it is perfect, how can it be defined or contained in any way?

What can measure a forms perfection other then the truth?

And being that the truth cannot be bound by time or space, it must also be beyond conception.

Does the truth reside in a place or location? No

It resides now. And what is now other then an everlasting present?

Thus, truth is known, right now. It doesn't have to be proven correct, it merely needs to be revealed.

And what can reveal the truth but the mind? Since the mind is the only way to know the truth, the truth must be within our mind.

Being that we know the truth, and it is within us, when we are attempting to the find the truth, we are truly attempting to find ourselves.

So what is not the truth then? If the truth is in our mind and our mind IS the truth, and the truth itself is everlasting beyond words thoughts or deeds, then the truth cannot be of time, as anything of time decays and fades away.

Therefore, anything that is temporary, subject to decaying laws of time and space, cannot be the truth.

Thus, to know the truth, ask simply this question: Will this decay or is this everlasting?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Boundless]
    #7698085 - 11/30/07 11:27 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

All truth is only belief. Doesn't matter if it's now or later. Evidence is only an agreed upon belief. At one time the earth could be demonstrated to be flat with observation. Finite mind and Infinite reality. You can't know one with the other. We never have the assurance that we have all the facts or that we are able to recognize or understand them. So we believe. Some beliefs my be more skillful in serving your or our collective experience but thats about it.

This is why we debate. We all have differing views and evidence for the "truth". But this is just our current belief about reality.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7698283 - 11/30/07 12:28 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The man who mistook his belief for a fact




Was infact a human.

WE are all guilty.


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OfflineBoundless
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Ego Death]
    #7698312 - 11/30/07 12:43 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Then light up the fire cuz we'll be burning for eternity!!

Unless of course we don't believe in guilt. Who would condemn us, if none us us believed in guilt?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Ego Death]
    #7698368 - 11/30/07 01:01 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ego Death said:
Quote:

The man who mistook his belief for a fact




Was infact a human.

WE are all guilty.




We all do it for sure and some all the time. It's a common human habit but it is just a habit and one can do something about habits even if it's not easy.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7698701 - 11/30/07 02:18 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Ever notice how the greatest minds in the most profound disciplines from Buddhist Abhidharma psychology to quantum mechanics to higher mathematics, etc., all find some form of "uncertainty principle" (to quote Heisenberg) active in the phenomenal universe?

Now, I'm a fairly intelligent guy, yet depite my ability to concentrate and despite above-average patience with difficult ideas, I do not have the background in math (algebra I+II, geometry, trigonometry, calculus I, Boolian algebra, research design and 3 courses in statistics, notwithstanding) to really understand calculations about 'uncertainty' from even a Wikipedia description. The notion of 'uncertainty' covers all fields of phenomena in the phenomenal world.

Juxtapose the fundamentalist believer who maintains 'certainty' based on the mythic wrtings of some ancient visionary (not actually Moses), of the entire history of Earth's existence from conception to death with a judgement and an afterlife. Certainty, based on the belief that 'sacred' writings are uniquely delivered from the Mysterious Author of existence, is indeed a crutch - a fabricated sense of 'certainty' which may define its sacrality to the believer who is overwhelmed by the uncertainty of it all. We are ALL overwhelmed by the uncertainty of it all, but like the various passangers aboard the sinking Titanic, most went down in panic, some sat stoically and awaited their own end, some spent their last moments helping others to live, many prayed for deliverance from their impending doom (I am sure), and a few prayed for their own inner peace and for whatever peace their peace could instill in others. I would not be surprised that at the reading of the tragedy in the paper, there were those who believed that the doomed ship was some kind of divine punishment for those aboard.

Fundamentalists are so 'certain' of the specialness (which is just pathological ego-inflation) that they blow themselves up for a heavenly f**k-fest with celestial virgins, while their deceased wives get to stand by and serve them, in one religion or, in another, they condemn (and torture-kill if empowered) all those who do not support their particular collective mythic fantasy of being eternal courtiers ceaselessly praising God on a throne in a sexless, G-rated version of Heaven that appeals to adult lovers of Disneyland.

It is not the religious function of the human psyche that is at fault, neither is it the dated, millennia-old renderings of religious visionary experience that could only be conveyed in the limited symbols of political structure (e.g., God as King, hence Kingdom of Heaven, Throne of God, 'slaves for Christ,' etc.) because politics was perhaps the most complex system by which metaphors could be constructed to suggest 'heavenly glory' using earthly analogies. Because The Biblical religions are ostensibly tied to history (at least general locations even if specifics have been blurred), the essential themes cannot be re-written into a new Bible based on modern analogies.

The problem with these records of millennia-old visionary experiences is with a certain almost Austistic mentality which is stuck at the "Pre Operational" level of cognition (age 2-6! - Jean Piaget). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_cognitive_development
In the past, I have written that fundamentalist thinking was characterized by "Concrete Operational" thinking, but I retract that position and state this one. There is a psychological blindspot in the psyches of otherwise fully-functioning modern adults when it comes to their global understanding of reality. In this specific domain, logic is not comprehended by children in this cognitive stage, or by fundamentalist thinkers who have this particular learning disability, and there is an egocentricity which is expanded to mythic proportions. Other individuals' points of view cannot be assumed. It is at once tragic and very dangerous for such individuals to be in positions of power as is evidenced by the political status of the planet today.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7698756 - 11/30/07 02:36 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

We are ALL overwhelmed by the uncertainty of it all

Here's what I'm getting at. Our inability to own our uncertainty.

I have been doing my own research on belief and find that our beliefs are so much the result of past experience and cultural training. For instance in a book on brain research I read they looked at an atheist who was able to produce mystical experience in himself in the manner of religious folk and the likes of Tolle in his first experience (in fact this person had is first experience spontaneously and it sounded almost exactly like Tolle's, yet the conclusion he came to from this is that there is no God and you had better make the most of this life because it's all you get. This realization brought him great peace according to him.) I found this most interesting and suspect that the mystical experience of God is a naturally occurring component of the biology of the human brain and may only be a result of the complex nature of our brain function or could be a fact of all animal life and more and yet not be evidence of a creative force that is intelligent and aware. There is just no way to know for sure. Everything comes down to belief. We just don't have the infinite capacity to know what is true. Every belief we have is based on how our brain functions and we do not know what if anything is in operation outside of that awareness.

I have no problem with anyone believing in God. If they tell me it's a for sure reality though then I need more than their word as I straddle the fence.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineLion
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7698775 - 11/30/07 02:43 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Fundamentalists are so 'certain' of the specialness (which is just pathological ego-inflation) that they blow themselves up for a heavenly f**k-fest with celestial virgins, while their deceased wives get to stand by and serve them, in one religion or, in another, they condemn (and torture-kill if empowered) all those who do not support their particular collective mythic fantasy of being eternal courtiers ceaselessly praising God on a throne in a sexless, G-rated version of Heaven that appeals to adult lovers of Disneyland.


:lol:

One wonders whether God would get self-conscious about the whole affair at some point.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Lion]
    #7698817 - 11/30/07 02:52 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Any self conscious god sounds pretty human to me. Just another example of how we imagine god in our own image.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7700037 - 11/30/07 07:27 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think that all mystical experiences sound questionable to those who have not had them. I know that some of my own experiences have shed light on why others (classic accounts like those in R.M. Bucke's book Cosmic Consciousness) have written their accounts. Most of my experiences could be fit into whatever framework I was 'into' at the time. When, during my early experiences with Morning Glory seeds and acid, I saw silvery doiley-kaleidoscopic wheels rotating in the sky, I interpreted them as 'magick circles,' and I got the message that I should continue to pursue magick, as I was into ceremonial magick at the time. Later on in my personal evolution, when I had been introduced to Tibetan Buddhism and Jungian psychology, I saw 'mandalas,' to give a concrete example.
When I dropped acid on Rosh Hashana while at college, and I had been reading Martin Buber's I and Thou, and hence 'into' Jewish mysticism, I experienced myself as an 'object' and the very sky as a 'Subject' under whose scrutiny I was - YHVH!

Only once did there occur something so utterly alien and ego-transcending that it required an entire book to explain it and it was (fortunately!) described by Lama Govinda's Foundations of Tibetan Mysticism that I was left profoundly convinced of a 'space' which truly exists, which is timeless, self-effulgent (as they say), is best described by BE HERE NOW as "Unbearable Compassion," and was as close to Heaven or Nirvana as my highest, smartest consciousness could ever entertain. The problem for me in my ordinary reality is that I go back to asking myself stupid questions like "Does it really last forever?," as if
forever means unending duration in time. Does Heaven/Nirvana 'last?' is a nonsensical question. One's questioning ego dissolves into an ecstatic intensity - gladly I might add - so that there is a blissful annihilation in THAT which may well be eternal, but no need to worry about whether it will 'get old' because that again is a stupid notion. The ego is ecstatically overwhelmed with ineffable radiant love (for lack of anything else to say) - the fulfillment of every misguided search for acceptance and fearlessness that we've ever sought here through all kinds of ego self-mastery games. Does everyone experience this 'Clear Light' thusly? No, I don't think so. I think it is an annihilating terror for the dense, 'greedy angry and ignorant' who comprise the multitudes of humanity.

In other words, the 'Transcendent Dimension' exists, and not as a mere human idea but as the Universal unmediated Consciousness that some of us carbon-based life-forms will resonate with - those of us who have endeavored to be transformed into Diamond Bodies allowing the Light to fill our consciousness until 'we' Realize that we ARE that Light. I can imagine (I'd like to believe, but I'll not assume that stance), that our fear of extinction, death - will die with an ecstatic laugh in the final nanoseconds when our mind dissolves along with all its wrong thoughts, and our Hearts will expand with the Infinite Ecstasy of what we've always been all along. I've turned on people who wept when they broke through the fear that going within would reveal an ugly being, and they realized that they were beautiful! I think this kind of experience is just a dim precursor to the Real Deal. As Paul said, 'now, we see through a glass, but darkly - then face to face' - with Ecstasy!


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7702566 - 12/01/07 02:00 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Does everyone experience this 'Clear Light' thusly? No, I don't think so. I think it is an annihilating terror for the dense, 'greedy angry and ignorant' who comprise the multitudes of humanity.

:lol: Luckily you're not one of them.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7702926 - 12/01/07 04:03 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Well...one never knows, does one? Apparently it is a matter of 'degree' or of 'purity' in the sense of one's anger-greed-ignorance being 'thin' enough not to interfere with one's 'intention' (or as you might prefer, 'intent'). However, unlike most everyone I meet and know, this very concern has not even occurred to them, so they are not working on themselves. As Ram Dass once noted, we are poor evaluators of our own progress on this trip. Sometimes I can almost taste it, and I have had glimpses of something that seems pretty close to others' descriptions, so I think I can expect a positive encounter with the 'Great Pumpkin' :wink:.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7705723 - 12/02/07 09:44 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Well...one never knows, does one?

Here I agree. The rest is you describing your personal subjective belief system. I'm not saying it isn't true, but in general we like to be the hero of our own story.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineLion
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7705741 - 12/02/07 09:50 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Well...one never knows, does one?

Here I agree. The rest is you describing your personal subjective belief system. I'm not saying it isn't true, but in general we like to be the hero of our own story.


yeah. it's a pretty funny joke that reality plays on all of us, making us believe we're the ones making progress.

*pats self on back*


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Lion]
    #7705769 - 12/02/07 10:08 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

We seem to have self-importance built right in. Most humility is false and even if we are the villain of our story we think we are a very important villain.

It gets so subtle that some folk believe they are evolved. :lol::monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7706628 - 12/02/07 03:19 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

There is nothing systematic about my experiences and experiences are not beliefs. I have endeavored to familiarize myself with traditions which have developed around the experiences of their founders in order to find the correct place in my life for these phenomenologically similar experiences. I could not deduce anything further from such experiences, and even to express 'hope' for a 'Final' experience to be similar to one of my own might be selling myself short.

If fearlessness (and hence total acceptance) is the hallmark of "the hero," I am not yet a hero, but I am on a heroic journey with the ever-present potential of seeing things from this liberated seat of consciousness. It comes in glimpses: kenshos and satoris. You've had them, I've had them and it's a matter of deciding their true value. THAT, I believe, is "Right Belief."



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7707372 - 12/02/07 06:51 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Truth is unknowable and unprovable.




reason is an effort to know the unknown
and intuition is the happening of the unknowable.
to penetrate the unknowable is possible,
but to explain it is not.
the feeling is possible,
the explanation is not.


--------------------


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #7707420 - 12/02/07 07:07 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

yeah, knowledge is information put into perspectice/context. That is what we regard as truth.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #7707591 - 12/02/07 07:50 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Truth is unknowable and unprovable.





Mushroom trip argues that this reasoning leads to scitzophrenic tendancies.

But I can't deny it is the only truth to me.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Ego Death]
    #7707650 - 12/02/07 08:00 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Huh?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7708016 - 12/02/07 09:08 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Flunked math.




Why am I not surprised? Dr. Sachs would probably be amused by your thread title too. He's seen some objective facts in his lifetime.


--------------------


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7708421 - 12/02/07 10:49 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

the monkey swinging in the tree grasps on the branches and then lets go and repeats.
grasping is like belief, holding on to the limb that supports,
letting go is like being open (open handed) or allowing for uncertainty.
without grasping and letting go there is no swinging going on.
(I would have been stuck on my branch if uncertainty was not brought into this.)


--------------------


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7708468 - 12/02/07 11:07 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
The human brain is geared to believe. It all happens in the brain.





Humans are social animals, and if we didn't have the ability to believe another person... we'd have failed to socially evolve to the place where we are.

Belief fuels creativity.

It is unfortunate we humans are innately gullible.

Our problem isn't our ability to believe... our problem is our ability to believe ANYTHING.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Rose]
    #7708476 - 12/02/07 11:10 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Humans are social animals, and if we didn't have the ability to believe another person... we'd have failed to socially evolve to the place where we are.




where are we?


--------------------


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #7708510 - 12/02/07 11:16 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Here.

I don't know if you'll agree.... but we are here.

Right beside the red arrow on the map. :smirk:


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Rose]
    #7708524 - 12/02/07 11:20 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

no, i agree.

i am here too, but you're over there, and we're all over the place.

:smile:


--------------------


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #7708526 - 12/02/07 11:21 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

humble bumble pie twere the best i e'er ate


--------------------
"Have you not learned that your word is bond? Yes, my word is bond and bond is life, I shall give my life, before my word shall fail."


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7709409 - 12/03/07 03:01 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

in the center of nothing.

to know you are just a leaf on the river of life, make me happy and sad.

I'll just roll down the street smoke'n on gin an juice.

To much thinking can drive a woman insane and a man crazy.

to me, asking questions seems like you're challenging god. he's unbeatable, but it's good to know we can.


hope is your friend.


--------------------
A driver knows that it is not the road that is his biggest obstacle, rather it is the poles.
A great driver understands, the poles will always be there, and he must learn to adjust.

I can't keep doing this on my own... with all these... people. -daniel plainview


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Rose]
    #7709412 - 12/03/07 03:05 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Our problem is that most believe what benefits them.


When was the last time you heard someone believe in something that screwed them over. People hope for the best, remember.


Reality strikes again.


--------------------
A driver knows that it is not the road that is his biggest obstacle, rather it is the poles.
A great driver understands, the poles will always be there, and he must learn to adjust.

I can't keep doing this on my own... with all these... people. -daniel plainview


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: ShrooomKing]
    #7709418 - 12/03/07 03:10 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ShrooomKing said:
When was the last time you heard someone believe in something that screwed them over?



Oh... about every day.

Don't you ever pay attention to politics?

I think what you are trying to say is more akin to: People do things for positive reasons.

I agree with that... but reasoning, no matter how positive, has little effect on outcome.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Rose]
    #7709675 - 12/03/07 07:20 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:

Don't you ever pay attention to politics?




I don't believe politics exist.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Rose]
    #7709826 - 12/03/07 09:35 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
The human brain is geared to believe. It all happens in the brain.





Humans are social animals, and if we didn't have the ability to believe another person... we'd have failed to socially evolve to the place where we are.

Belief fuels creativity.

It is unfortunate we humans are innately gullible.

Our problem isn't our ability to believe... our problem is our ability to believe ANYTHING.




I agree. We seem to choose many of our beliefs based on our fears and hangups rather than expansive wonder.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7709829 - 12/03/07 09:39 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Flunked math.




Why am I not surprised? Dr. Sachs would probably be amused by your thread title too. He's seen some objective facts in his lifetime.




Actually I lied. I never flunked math. I cheated my way through it like I did all of high school except history. But having seen your political POV over in that forum I feel quite fortunate.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Middleman]
    #7709831 - 12/03/07 09:41 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
Quote:

Cervantes said:

Don't you ever pay attention to politics?




I don't believe politics exist.




Politics = fundamentalist religions


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineLion
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7709835 - 12/03/07 09:43 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I agree. We seem to choose many of our beliefs based on our fears and hangups rather than expansive wonder.


well said


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7709839 - 12/03/07 09:47 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
There is nothing systematic about my experiences and experiences are not beliefs. I have endeavored to familiarize myself with traditions which have developed around the experiences of their founders in order to find the correct place in my life for these phenomenologically similar experiences. I could not deduce anything further from such experiences, and even to express 'hope' for a 'Final' experience to be similar to one of my own might be selling myself short.

If fearlessness (and hence total acceptance) is the hallmark of "the hero," I am not yet a hero, but I am on a heroic journey with the ever-present potential of seeing things from this liberated seat of consciousness. It comes in glimpses: kenshos and satoris. You've had them, I've had them and it's a matter of deciding their true value. THAT, I believe, is "Right Belief."






Yes, yes, I understand that is your belief. We all have something we consider "right belief" from Jesus to Hitler.

To perceive is to believe IMO. What the thinker thinks the prover proves and thats not just about the big things. That seems to be the way the brain operates all across the human spectrum.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7709973 - 12/03/07 10:55 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
What the thinker thinks the prover proves and thats not just about the big things. That seems to be the way the brain operates all across the human spectrum.




That is a clever way of saying things.

I'll frame your point differently by saying:

"The true skeptics are the curious."


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7712120 - 12/03/07 07:52 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Perception is NOT equivalent to belief. Perception is a non-rational mode of apperception http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/apperception. Belief has a rational-cognitive component even if the rationale is based upon erroneous info. "Right Belief" - one of the Buddhist Eightfold Paths, is NOT based upon a a cognitive construct, it is based upon perception. One MAY not 'believe' one's perceptual [5] senses under certain circumstances, and that illustrates the 'buddhi' or discriminating mind which is based on previous patterns of cause-effect, not upon opinion, supposition, wishful thinking, guesswork, scriptural authority or because your grandma says so. Discriminating mind is apperception which undergirds sensory perception. Beneath that is Pure Consciousness giving rise to both capabilities. "Right Belief" occurs from certain non-rational apperceptions, namely, a non-dualistic point of view which transcends subject-object distinctions.

If you doubt every valuational human experience, then you are espousing Nihilism. I am not a Nihilist. What the Buddhist ego-non-ego dichotomy attempts to illustrate is a sophisticated version of Nagualism as Casteneda attempted to illustrate via the categories of "Tonal" and "Nagual" (for a phenomenological parallel).


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7712291 - 12/03/07 08:24 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Perception as we think of it necessarily involves interpretation. You cannot perceive a tree. The tree is a construct of your mind that is programmed to recognize patterns. Our sees the light reflecting off of the landscape. It sees brown and then green coming out of it. Based on linguistic programming, our mind interprets the perception as "tree." Similarly, you cannot perceive God, no matter how transcendent your experience. You can only perceive sensations, which your mind then interprets as "God."

Try to focus on the print on a newspaper without reading it. Try to just see the black white formations without interpreting them. Can you do it? I can't, and I've tried it numerous times. Such is the nature of perception. And so I ask you: Who is the great master who makes the grass green?


--------------------


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7712326 - 12/03/07 08:34 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

You are what you precieve.
Your beliefs define what you are.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7712366 - 12/03/07 08:44 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I remember looking at news print before I could read, on the floor next to my parents' bed. What I do remember is that I did not like the short word 'no' - there was something negative about it! Indeed!

The thing about perception as Huxley wrote in The Doors of Perception, is that, in certain states, one CAN perceive pre-conceptually. He then went on to describe his perception of a wood chair without the name 'chair' and the associated functions, memories, etc. He described this 'form' of vertical and horizontal lines prior to his association with 'chairness' - a pure idea that goes back to time immemorial.

'GOD' is an exclamation annunciating the most profound experience of pre-conceptual apperception which annihilates any of the conceptual notions stemming from childhood's cultural programming. An experience of the Mysterium Tremendum et Fascinans constituting mysticism (or, more recently, Maslow's "Peak" and "Plateau" experiences, respectively) occurs on a continuum. The less egoic mind that remains to filter the experience, the more ineffable and transforming an encounter with the Ground Consciousness whence mind derives (at least in my understanding).


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7712932 - 12/03/07 11:14 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

If you doubt every valuational human experience, then you are espousing Nihilism.

I'm not doubting human experience. I'm saying that we have beliefs about that experience and it's the beliefs that rule us. This includes all religions, philosophies, and books by Carlos Castaneda. If you don't believe one perceptual sense then you replace that belief with something else. It's beliefs (like turtles) , all the way down. It matters not if there is a reality out there or not that conforms to our beliefs. We believe and then act on it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7715305 - 12/04/07 02:54 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

To act on believes only, would be absolute insanity :smile:
There is a constant feed-back to and from 'objective' and 'rational' reality, for halfway's sane people.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7716854 - 12/04/07 08:47 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

You remind me of 'Schultz' in 'Hogan's Heros' : "I see nothing!...I know nothing!"

BTW, we have the "phenomenological reduction," which is about as 'objective' as philosophical analysis goes and describes but does not attribute 'beliefs' to phenomenon. Language can, when used intelligently, become a springboard from which to make intuitive leaps. Intuition may not be your 'superior function' (from an MBTI perspective), because you often overlook its presence and go straight to the 'thinking function.' As Jung quipped, intuition "sees around corners."


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7716912 - 12/04/07 09:00 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Intuition and logic are both valuable tools, especially when used together, but ultimately it does not change the fact that the world of perception(phenomenon) can never reach the world-as-it-is(noumenon), and if it did, we would have no way of knowing it. In fact, can we even be certain that there is a world independent of our perception of it? Descartes seems to have been on the right track when he pointed out that the only thing he could be certain of was that he was conscious(cogito ergo sum). But any observation beyond that is just an estimate. I refer back to my Husserl quote: "All perception is gamble." Invoke logic, intuition, God, or science all you want, but they're all just gambles.


--------------------


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7717075 - 12/04/07 09:37 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

No argument with Husserl, but Gnosis is supposed to be the Knowledge in the term Sat Chit Ananda (when Chit is translanslated as Knowledge rather than 'mind-stuff') in which there is no subject-object distinction. This, it seems is an intuitive apperception of the Ground Consciousness. I don't know if Descartes equated consciousness with a quality inherent in beings or whether he held to the primacy of consciousness as the metaphysical Given. Husserl seemed (to me at least) to see consciousness as the Given, and attributed only one 'invariant' feature - intentionality. Consciousness is always conscious of something, even if it is conscious only of itself and consciousness of consciousness seems to be a Transcendental reality, call it whatever you want.

Consciousness is therefore the Noumena from which all phenomena arises. The Noumena is 'Unmanifest' like the 'Ain' designation above Ain Sof Aur and Ain Sof in Kabbalism. It is the 'I' which sees, but which cannot be seen in other language, or the Divine "I AM" of the Bible - pure Identity, pure Will, pure Intentionality. I hate to include A. Crowley with Descartes, Kant and the others, but he did lend some insight via the Tree symbolism in that "The Abyss" is the 'space' in which Da'ath - Knowledge - dwells on the way into Kether (Being). It's the Being-Knowledge of Sat-Chit in a western model. It's not belief here, it's descriptive psychology, only psychology is the subjective pole of a subject-object unity in which the object pole simply doesn't have a name that anyone here wishes to attibute. It is almost like a modern insistance on NOT naming the Unnamable - just like the ancient Hebrews who forbade the pronunciation of the Name YHVH. But I digress and no doubt confuse (Hell, I just confused myself! :confused:)

I am gambling every time I pray, that prayer is the action of the Transcendental operating in my immediate locus of space-time and is aligned with my human intentionality. This was Edward Edinger's description of the "ego-Self" axis that was depicted in stories about Jesus, or in Wilhelm's story of 'The Rainmaker,' or in stories about Neem Karolie Baba. These considerations of the operation of the Noumenal Numinous Transcendental Ego (AKA GOD) make life so much more interesting than being completely skeptical and 'unbelieving.' I cleave to GOD without holding any doctrinal belief about GOD, but unbelief is equally a belief. I will adhere without shame or excuse to the former position and live life 'as if' Transcendental Consciousness - GOD - is Ultimate Reality. It is, as Gandhi called it, "my experiments with truth."


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7717094 - 12/04/07 09:44 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

You list three of the five aggregates in Buddhism. Are you perhaps interested in Buddhism?


--------------------
Laugh and the world laughs with you.
Weep and you weep alone


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7717454 - 12/04/07 11:04 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
You remind me of 'Schultz' in 'Hogan's Heros' : "I see nothing!...I know nothing!"

BTW, we have the "phenomenological reduction," which is about as 'objective' as philosophical analysis goes and describes but does not attribute 'beliefs' to phenomenon. Language can, when used intelligently, become a springboard from which to make intuitive leaps. Intuition may not be your 'superior function' (from an MBTI perspective), because you often overlook its presence and go straight to the 'thinking function.' As Jung quipped, intuition "sees around corners."




Are you referring to Kant's "sensible intuitions"? I've noticed no two people intuiting the same thing. Of course it's easy enough to forget that when intuition doesn't work. You remind me of Mr. Magoo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7717481 - 12/04/07 11:11 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Intuition and logic are both valuable tools, especially when used together, but ultimately it does not change the fact that the world of perception(phenomenon) can never reach the world-as-it-is(noumenon), and if it did, we would have no way of knowing it.  In fact, can we even be certain that there is a world independent of our perception of it?  Descartes seems to have been on the right track when he pointed out that the only thing he could be certain of was that he was conscious(cogito ergo sum).  But any observation beyond that is just an estimate.  I refer back to my Husserl quote:  "All perception is gamble."  Invoke logic, intuition, God, or science all you want, but they're all just gambles.




I think Hume would also agree.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7717527 - 12/04/07 11:20 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Consciousness is therefore the Noumena from which all phenomena arises.

This is pure speculation on Kant's and your part. (pun intended)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7717840 - 12/05/07 12:40 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

It is, as Gandhi called it, "my experiments with truth."



Nothing wrong with that, as long as you recognize it as such. If you haven't already, I highly recommend reading Robert Anton Wilson(author of my sig quote, as well as Icelander's), starting with the Cosmic Trigger series. He talks a great deal about "reality tunnels," a term coined by Timothy Leary, which are our unique "tunnels" through which we filter the signals our senses receive. Here's a little taste of his philosophy:





Seems rather appropriate to this thread.


--------------------


Edited by Silversoul (12/05/07 03:05 AM)


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7718873 - 12/05/07 11:08 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I am gambling every time I pray,

So here you are acknowledging that this is a belief on your part and not actual knowledge of what truth/reality is.

This is the focus of my thread. I see no disagreement between us then.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7718891 - 12/05/07 11:15 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)



It's enjoyable to find myself in agreement with you on a thread. I think some here get the impression that I think all their beliefs are impossible nonsense. This is usually not the case. What I am insisting on is the acknowledgment that it is a personal belief and no one can know what the actual truth is. To one who believes they know truth though, my position is taken as a personal affront.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/05/07 11:16 AM)


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7720556 - 12/05/07 06:47 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Any reality that you choose to create for yourself...or have created for you...is just a story. Like a bed time story, it is only the sum of what you have invested, but it is no more real. To feel that one is close to any truth is just delusion built upon delusion, but so what...we are all deluded anyway. We invest so much to create without ever realizing that our existence has no more substance than castles in the air. The experience has a beginning, and that is all we know. Somehow, this is the most comforting way of deluding myself....to believe that I believe nothing.

Quote:

Our first attention is hooked to the emanations of the earth, while our second attention is hooked to the emanations of the universe. A dreamer by definition is outside the boundaries of the concerns of everyday life.


- CC


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7721423 - 12/05/07 09:24 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Mr. Magoo! Love it! Jim Backus' voice. Near-sighted, but I'm far-sighted. I might miss the Earth for the cosmos. Here however, I'm referring to intuition with regard to Ultimate Reality, not a horse at the track. I thought that was what we were discussing.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7721471 - 12/05/07 09:34 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Consciousness is therefore the Noumena from which all phenomena arises.

This is pure speculation on Kant's and your part. (pun intended)




No, it is my intuition. Speculation, again, would be primarily 'thinking function.'


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7723434 - 12/06/07 09:57 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Consciousness is therefore the Noumena from which all phenomena arises.

This is pure speculation on Kant's and your part. (pun intended)






No, it is my intuition. Speculation, again, would be primarily 'thinking function.'




And you think about your intuition and then create a belief about what your intuition is and means.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7723437 - 12/06/07 09:58 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Mr. Magoo! Love it! Jim Backus' voice. Near-sighted, but I'm far-sighted. I might miss the Earth for the cosmos. Here however, I'm referring to intuition with regard to Ultimate Reality, not a horse at the track. I thought that was what we were discussing.




Again you believe your intuition informs you about ultimate reality, and you come to this conclusion by thinking about it. Brain, brain, brain, brain.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/06/07 09:59 AM)


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7723444 - 12/06/07 09:59 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Any reality that you choose to create for yourself...or have created for you...is just a story. Like a bed time story, it is only the sum of what you have invested, but it is no more real. To feel that one is close to any truth is just delusion built upon delusion, but so what...we are all deluded anyway. We invest so much to create without ever realizing that our existence has no more substance than castles in the air. The experience has a beginning, and that is all we know. Somehow, this is the most comforting way of deluding myself....to believe that I believe nothing.

Well said.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7725400 - 12/06/07 07:17 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I am gambling every time I pray,

So here you are acknowledging that this is a belief on your part and not actual knowledge of what truth/reality is.

This is the focus of my thread. I see no disagreement between us then.




I believe in Truth, and I believe that prayer is 'applied Truth.'
Prayer, theoretically, is a process in which the Unmanifest becomes manifest, and the ego-mind is 'aligned with' the infinite potential of Being so that a creative fiat originating within the locus of the ego-mind results in manifest actuality. In Biblical language it is the: "I and the Father are One," and the philosophical theology in this is that the 'I' of the ego-mind is experienced as being 'aligned with' (or, more radically, identical with) the Transcendental Ego (the Biblical "I AM").

This is a purely mystical apperception which is sometimes accompanied by what is called 'assurance.' Oftentimes in writings on prayer, as with writings on [transcendental, theurgic] magick, one is instructed to feel that one's intention [will] has been done. Assurance is a spontaneous experience of certitude and it is part of the process of a 'granted' prayer. This assurance is not followed by no results. Moreover, the origination of a prayer event (versus wishful thinking), originates in the Transcendental Ego, not in the ego-mind. The ego-mind is the locus where the Transcendental Ego is experienced, but it appears to be originating in the ego-mind as one's own prayer. This is why in Christian theology the 'Holy Spirit' [Transcendental Consciousness] is said to be the one praying in the believer, and why this constitutes real prayer (a prayer which results in real results).

The 'Knowledge of Truth' lies in the experience of the alignment (the Jungian "ego-Self axis") of the human desire (ego-mind) with which actually manifests in space-time. This is the simplest explication of my experience of petitionary prayer when the prayer has been a rather complex request, not just a coin-toss probability, 0 or 1 matter. I rather think of this as my theory of prayer, not my belief about prayer. Belief sounds too rigidly dogmatic whereas theories can be modified.

There were two competing theological positions in the middle ages about the primacy of 'will' or of 'intellect.' If will can be equated with intentionality (as in the Husserlian phenomenology), then I subscribe to the primacy of will, and then, as you say, thinking makes something out of Pure Consciousness Events (interpretation or belief). Belief then, follows from experience (including mystical/gnostic experience). I would never have developed any belief if I had not first experienced something numinous in the first place.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7725857 - 12/06/07 09:23 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I would never have developed any belief if I had not first experienced something numinous in the first place.


Of course not, I agree. No one believes anything without some kind of interaction with their "reality". The fact is that each person comes to a conclusion about their perceptions. Two people having a similar experience can perceive it and interpret it as polar opposites. This is of course my only point. Reality is impossible to know. Our brain constructs beliefs based on it's perceptions. Some of these we more or less agree on. This doesn't make them true of course. Most likely we agree on so much because we are similar. A bat or a vulture might not perceive the same as us. Being primates with complex brains determines how we see things and how we construct beliefs.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7732324 - 12/08/07 11:10 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

A fact for whom?


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7735715 - 12/09/07 10:36 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Like you said Markos I have had some of the same type of "cosmic" experiences as you. Yet I have come to different conclusions about what they mean. Does this make me wrong and you right? Does this make me right and you wrong? Or does it suggest that we create our beliefs and then defend them?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7738485 - 12/09/07 11:46 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

"I'm always right and never wrong...So vote for me, George Leroy Tirebiter."


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7738914 - 12/10/07 02:29 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

So, my parents decided to put me in Catholic School when I was growing up and moved to public school (non-religious obviously) halfway though my 8th grade year. While at private school they taught the regular basics but included "Religion" as a subject each year requiring a passing grade or else you would be held back. I really didn't think much of it until recently, but that is what brainwashed me into BELIEVING that God was the absolute truth and there was nothing else..meaning he created us and all matter, and that all authority for the afterlife was chosen by him (God). Of course I believed it all, and when I moved to public school I would ask my new friends how they felt about it, and some would laugh at the notion that I "knew" God and the heavens and the depths of hell existed.

"Why did I "know" these things existed?" I never could find an answer

Anyway later in life (not too long ago) I have had some major changes in my life that drained me mentally and emotionally. At times in my room crying to God in prayer asking him to help.    nothing. For months and months I was in a heap of trouble I thought I wouldn't get out of. Neither prayer or church would do anything.
I started thinking of things like Hurricane Rita and Katrina, the tsunami that wiped out 230,000(est.), Wildfires in California, record breaking Typhoons in the east, wartime in Iraq, suicide bombings, Faces of Death, rotten.com, no help for me                    I stopped believing.

Now, I KNOW that there is nothing out there but us, the earth, gravity, the cosmos, and beyond and there is nothing else. No God to help, no proof of his existence just assumptions by people who didn't know better thousands of years ago. Now that we have the facts of plain ol' science, how else can you say there is more.

I think catholicism in many years will turn to myth just like "Greek Mythology".



IMHO of course :grin:


--------------------
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or
insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."

"Strange memories on this nervous night in Las Vegas. Five years later? Six? It seems like a lifetime, or at least a main era - -the kind of peak that never comes again. San Francisco in the middle sixties was a very special time and place to be a part of. Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run, but no explanation, no mix of words or music or memories can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and alive in that corner of time and the world. Whatever it meant."

Hunter S. Thompson.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: inv3rse]
    #7739309 - 12/10/07 07:48 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I believe in God, but what is more to the point I also Know God intimately.
You are seeking a spiritual, non-substantial Mystery and 'hoping' that it is a 'He' who will intervene in physical events. THAT is the erroneous mythic notion of God as the Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky. God is the Source wherein the the infrastructure of space-time derives, and space-time is not a changeless reality. Stars are born and die, planets are born and die. On planets, earth, air, fire and water interact continuously and in fact biological life came forth from these elements, guided by and designed by God as far as I am concerned. All biological lives are born and die too, and blaming the very Ultimate Reality for the birth-death cycle of existence, or denying the Intelligence and unimaginable majesty of this Primal Reality are both human reactions to the mind-blowing implications of the Reality of God. Hiding one's head in the seemingly comprehensible reality of the elements of the cosmos is simply that - hiding from the Mysterium Tremendum et Fascinans.

If you have mistakenly read my posts as indicating non-belief, you should understand that it is the mythic and childish notions of God that I take issue with not Ultimate Reality Him-Herself.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (12/10/07 05:20 PM)


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: inv3rse]
    #7739562 - 12/10/07 10:02 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Like you, I had the God gene implanted in me in early childhood and so have that belief as part of my landscape no matter how rationally I dispute it.(so far)

But to say there is no God and you are sure is just as much nonsense. You are trading one belief for another. That's not wrong, in fact your new belief may serve you much better, but it's still just a belief. Fact is we just cannot know as far as my experience goes.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/10/07 10:02 AM)


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7739566 - 12/10/07 10:03 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I also Know God intimately. belief belief belief.

Ultimate Reality Him-Herself.
  :laugh: Markos knows what ultimate reality is.:whoa::monkeydance:


Edited by Icelander (12/10/07 10:05 AM)


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7739674 - 12/10/07 11:07 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I believe in God, but what is more to the point I also Know God intimately.
You are seeking a spiritual, non-substantial Mystery and 'hoping' that it is a 'He' who will intervene in physical events. THAT is the erroneous mythic notion of God as the Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky. God is the infrastructure of space-time and space-time is not a changeless reality. Stars are born and die, planets are born and die. On planets, earth, air, fire and water interact continuously and in fact biological life came forth from these elements, guided by and designed by God as far as I am concerned. All biological lives are born and die too, and blaming the very Ultimate Reality for the birth-death cycle of existence, or denying the Intelligence and unimaginable majesty of this Primal Reality are both human reactions to the mind-blowing implications of the Reality of God. Hiding one's head in the seemingly comprehensible reality of the elements of the cosmos is simply that - hiding from the Mysterium Tremendum et Fascinans.

If you have mistakenly read my posts as indicating non-belief, you should understand that it is the mythic and childish notions of God that I take issue with not Ultimate Reality Him-Herself.




If you say you are intimate with God, and then change the definition of God to space-time and full of change, then you are essentially saying you know THE WORLD rather than God.

In your belief God is equal with what dies, and is born. He cannot create everlasting love or joy. The Sons of God have no special inheritance except to die along with the rest of the world. Truth is ever changing. And time and space can disintegrate everything to dust including a soul, which would die along with the rest of the matter in the world.

Gnosticism means knowledge. HOW CAN THERE BE KNOWLEDGE, when truth is ever changing?


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Boundless]
    #7739812 - 12/10/07 12:06 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

It often astounds me that people still talk about or use the word God.

God means the creator.

So if theres a creator then who created the creator?

Chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg...

Surely, simple logic proves all talk of God to be useless?

Or is it the case that we prefer to make up answers ourselves as to why and how we are here as opposed to using logic?


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Ego Death]
    #7739842 - 12/10/07 12:14 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ego Death said:
Chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg...





--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Ego Death]
    #7739851 - 12/10/07 12:17 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

So if theres a creator then who created the creator?

God folk would use the same logic that we use for the concept of infinity. There is no way to know as we is finite.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: BIGSWANG]
    #7740001 - 12/10/07 01:02 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BIGSWANG said:





--------------------
Admin Edit: Your signiture is inappropriate and has been removed.  Do not harass other members in your signiture.  Also refrain from posting links to scat pornography.  If I see anything like that here again, you will be banned.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Boundless]
    #7741098 - 12/10/07 05:03 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I was in a hurry for work. God is THAT whence space-time emerges and from which it is sustained. I should have said the 'Metaphysical' infrastructure, although infrastructure suggests structure, and I didn't mean that either. Perhaps I'll go back and modify the post.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7741148 - 12/10/07 05:17 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I also Know God intimately. belief belief belief.

Ultimate Reality Him-Herself.
  :laugh: Markos knows what ultimate reality is.:whoa::monkeydance:




I did not say that I Know "what ultimate reality is," I said that I know God [Ultimate Reality]. Huge difference. Your wording does not express what I said. The intimacy of Knowing God is due to the experiencing of Being God insofar as my individual being is not separate or walled-off from Ultimate Being. This statement should NOT be interpreted as my egoic mind is God.

I believe that your awareness and my awareness is still awareness, and that awareness itself, at bottom, is Ultimate Being. I do not have a problem with the word belief as you do. Belief is no more than the words in the preceding sentence. It is the totality of my life experiences distilled down to a brief explication linguistic explication of my conclusions about Reality at the time of this writing. Beliefs may change, intimacy of Being does not.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7741158 - 12/10/07 05:19 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

belief is built of symbolic human representation of creation. the symbols fail to do the job which leads to contention and discord. wisdom is born of silence, beliefs rely upon words and symbols that always fall short. find the quiet behind your eyes, revel in it.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7741656 - 12/10/07 07:09 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)


I did not say that I Know "what ultimate reality is," I said that I know God [Ultimate Reality]. Huge difference. Your wording does not express what I said. The intimacy of Knowing God is due to the experiencing of Being God insofar as my individual being is not separate or walled-off from Ultimate Being. This statement should NOT be interpreted as my egoic mind is God.


Well how interesting. So what about my experience which is not walled-off from Ultimate Being? It experiences no God.

I don't have a problem with belief as you state. I believe all of it is belief. Belief, belief, belief. We all perceive with our brain/mind then we believe something about what we have perceived. I've been saying this from the very beginning. It's all belief all the way down. No one can say what is "real" because we are separated from reality by belief.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7741756 - 12/10/07 07:32 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

"Human beings are what they understand themselves to be; they are composed entirely of beliefs about themselves and about the world they inhabit. -Michael Oakenhott"

"A susceptibility for recognizing patterns and ascribing order to the world is a powerful urge. The abundance of myths, legends and pseudo-explanations for the world witness to a propensity we have for inventing spurious ordering principles to explain the world. We are afraid of the unexplained. Chaos, disorder, and chance were closely linked to a dark side of the Universe:the antithesis of the benevolent gods. One reason for this is that the recognition of order has passed from having some reward that is beneficial--recognizing food sources , predators, or members of the same species--to becoming and end in itself. There is a satisfaction to be gained from the creation of order, or from the discovery of order. These feelings probably have their origins in an evolutionary past, where the ability to make such identifications was adaptive" ---The Artful Universe


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7741960 - 12/10/07 08:08 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

It's all belief all the way down.




Belief = turtle


Logic = alligator


--------------------


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7741993 - 12/10/07 08:16 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

It's all belief all the way down.




Belief = turtle


Logic = alligator





Not quite, logic is a belief also.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7742050 - 12/10/07 08:31 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

A belief with scales and REALLY BIG fucking teeth.


--------------------


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7742092 - 12/10/07 08:39 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

They have scales? In Vegas?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7742132 - 12/10/07 08:49 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i didnt get that one until i saw the aligator ate the turtle
:nonono:


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: daytripper23]
    #7742140 - 12/10/07 08:50 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

That's it, no more Steve Irwin for you :nono:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7742196 - 12/10/07 08:58 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

No more Steve Irwin for anyone. :sad:


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Veritas]
    #7742211 - 12/10/07 09:01 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

It was fun while it lasted :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7742227 - 12/10/07 09:04 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

S'alright, Steve Irwin speaks to us from beyond the grave.



--------------------


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7742279 - 12/10/07 09:11 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

This is exactly what was missing :rofl2:
Btw, at min. 3 I gave up watching. :tongue:

:blazed:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7742298 - 12/10/07 09:14 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

hahahaha that is awesome


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Lion]
    #7742384 - 12/10/07 09:36 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

There was a desperate need for a Steve Irwin emoticon in this thread:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7743871 - 12/11/07 07:48 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

'IT' isn't about 'what' we're experiencing. It is 'What' is doing the experiencing - the Awareness - colorless, Clear Light the Buddhists call it, Being. We are Awareness, Being. Everything else is irrelevant here because we project or identify with form constantly, being Self-forgetful in the process of life. The Reality of Being is the Witnessing Awareness, not the 'objects' of Awareness.

Your existentialist quotation is just another mentally constipated perception - unable to see the forest for the trees. Actually, unable to discern the Seer from the seen.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7744383 - 12/11/07 12:00 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

We are Awareness, Being. Everything else is irrelevant here because we project or identify with form constantly, being Self-forgetful in the process of life. The Reality of Being is the Witnessing Awareness, not the 'objects' of Awareness.





These are your beliefs, and do not necessarily describe reality.  To you, it may seem obvious that this is the nature of Ultimate Reality, but this does not mean that you are correct in your assertions.  It's all "best guess," and to assert otherwise is the philosophical equivalent of plugging one's ears and singing "LA LA LA, I can't hear you!!"  :lol:


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Veritas]
    #7744460 - 12/11/07 12:44 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
No more Steve Irwin for anyone. :sad:




I got stung by a stingray. It was excrutiating pain and muscle spasms for almost six hours. The next day my head was swollen like a pumpkin.

And that was from a small one puncturing my toe, not a huge one with a dagger to the heart.


--------------------


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Veritas]
    #7745797 - 12/11/07 06:37 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Belief is after the Experience of Knowing. Being-Knowledge is the classic mytical experience. Mental experiences of a certain order best 'reflect' Being. This is why a mystic such as Ramana Maharshi spoke of the Sahasrara experiences as the Chandra mandala [the lunar sphere] whereas the Surya Mandala [solar sphere] of the Hridayam represented the Self or Being which supported these Sahasrara experiences (Cosmic Consciousness). This is a model belonging to the Non-dualist tradition of Advaita which serves to transform-down the mystical experience into a an intellectual model. Beliefs are intellectual models which are reflective of a transrational experience of Pure Consciousness.

Most people believe in the experiences of others. That makes them believers. Even adhering to a model that explicates one's own experience intellectually makes one a believer. But the original Experience - a PCE (Pure Consciousness Event) is not itself a belief. It is an immediate experience, which is to say, an experience which is unmediated by the rational factulty. It is not irrational as in a predominatingly emotional sense, it is transrational - awareness not yet 'formed' by linguistic processes which break the unifying condition into discrete analyzable parts. Being is not reducible to states of human consciousness - interfaces with the brain and body in which the brain is integrated.

Now, perhaps you have not experienced this condition, or as Hendrix put it, "Have you ever been Experienced?" Have 'you' as egoic-mind ever been experienced from the Witnessing Awareness? Have 'you' (paradoxically) ever experienced your identity as an 'object' perceived from your Higher Identity as the Witnessing Subject? If you had, then you would be compelled by the nature of the Experience to arrive at a similarly formulated belief when you returned to ordinary consciousness. One can doubt one's interpretation of any experience except for the Experience of Being Witness to any experience. It is not the Cartesian "I think, therefore I am" as much as "I AM therefore I AM." Identity, Awareness, is ontologically prior to thinking. I do not believe that I AM, it is a tautology.

Being is Buddhist Emptiness in my meaning, or Hindu Nirguna Brahman or Kabbalistic 'Ain' or Christian "Superessential Godhead" - all Unmanifest but constituting the Ultimately Real. This is Positing the Negative, and language ends at this point...as does my attempt to convey the difference between your understanding and mine. There are mystics and non-mystics.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7745864 - 12/11/07 06:52 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

But the original Experience - a PCE (Pure Consciousness Event) is not itself a belief. It is an immediate experience, which is to say, an experience which is unmediated by the rational factulty. It is not irrational as in a predominatingly emotional sense, it is transrational - awareness not yet 'formed' by linguistic processes which break the unifying condition into discrete analyzable parts.




I do not think that it is possible for humans to have immediate experiences.  We take in information through our senses, and tell ourselves a story about that information.  Everything we experience, once we become aware of it via perception, is indirect and contains many "editorial comments. " :wink:

But if your "best guess" is that such a thing is possible, that's fine.  My point is that it simply doesn't make sense to insist that it is FACTUAL.  :shrug:


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7745945 - 12/11/07 07:02 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

The experience of consciousness cannot be denied. That much is certain, as demonstrated by Descartes. However, such experience tells us nothing about the nature of consciousness or from whence it arises. I'm certainly inclined towards the Advaita philosophy that consciousness precedes matter. But simply experiencing pure consciousness cannot prove this.

Brain scans have shown a correlation between transcendent experiences and certain parts of the brain being active and certain parts being inactive. I also think materialists put the cart before the horse in assuming that this means such experiences are mere hallucinations produced by the brain, but that is still a valid interpretation.

In summary, to experience pure consciousness tells us nothing other than the fact that we are experiencing something.


--------------------


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7745954 - 12/11/07 07:04 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

In summary, to experience pure consciousness tells us nothing other than the fact that we are experiencing something.




:thumbup:  Indeed.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Veritas]
    #7747263 - 12/11/07 11:50 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

The experiences in question were not sensory experiences to be interpreted by the rational mind, they were entirely inner experiences. Facticity, for you, more than likely, means demonstrable phenomena. Inner experiences are subjectively experienced within the locus of one human being. Only the effects on that being can serve to manifest the experience[s] to others. I suggest reading Abraham Maslow's Toward a Psychology of Being if you ever become truly interested in mystical experience considered from a psychological perspective.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7747274 - 12/11/07 11:54 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

It also tells us that there is a perceiver of the mental experiences - the 'I' which sees, but which cannot be seen. THAT [TAT] is the Awareness that I am positing - the Witness of our inner and outer experiences - and our Real identity. "Tat Twam Asi" (That Thou Art).


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7747318 - 12/12/07 12:03 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
It also tells us that there is a perceiver of the mental experiences - the 'I' which sees, but which cannot be seen. THAT [TAT] is the Awareness that I am positing - the Witness of our inner and outer experiences - and our Real identity. "Tat Twam Asi" (That Thou Art).



It's an interesting question that I've often pondered: If someone can learn to control their brain functions, such as with meditation, then who is the one doing the controlling? It doesn't seem to make sense if we are our brains, as reductionists would have it. I'd actually be interested in hearing a materialist's response to such a question.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7748091 - 12/12/07 07:48 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I WAS a scientific materialist until LSD. Even years later when I was studying neurophysiology and neuroanatomy at U. of Maryland, and learned of new materialistic theories of memory (like Hebb's resonance), I understood that the die-hard scientific mind-set does not accept Mystery. This is because scientists identify with the rational mind and the sense data upon which the rational mind operates. Rarely do strongly identified thinkers learn to detach from thinking and identify with the formless consciousness. This reminds me of Mark Epstein's book title: Thoughts Without a Thinker. If one is fortunate, a prolonged deep state of meditative samadhi will reflect Being. The Witnessing formless consciousness can then get a more clear 'reflection' of itself in a mind uncluttered with thoughts/feelings/sensations. The light in a movie film lies not in the film itself, but in the lamp behind the film which illuminates and projects the image. Similarly with consciousness which illuminates the formation of thoughts in our carbon-based computer-brain. The 'I'- sense, called Ahamkara in Yoga, has falsely identified itself with the mind-body as a necessary survival mechanism, while the true identity of the 'I' is not the embodied ego but Consciousness itself - the Biblical "I AM" comes to mind here.

"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live," says Exodus 33:20, and indeed, the Witness 'stands' behind all of our mental functions and perceptions. It sees, but cannot be seen by the ego. If there was a 'turning about of the seat of consciousness' - when The finite ego encounters the limitless Consciousness, it dies, is annihilated as Semele, the mother of Dionysius was when she made Zeus reveal his true nature to her in the myth. To the willing and prepared individual ego, I like to hope that it is a blissful merging rather than bolt of lightning, however, the path is to identify with that Vastness now, in the midst of embodied existence, not be shocked at the moment of death. Hence the imperative to experience Being, Nirvana simultaneously with our psychophysical mundane lives of 'chopping wood and carrying water.'


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7749569 - 12/12/07 04:13 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
'IT' isn't about 'what' we're experiencing. It is 'What' is doing the experiencing - the Awareness - colorless, Clear Light the Buddhists call it, Being. We are Awareness, Being. Everything else is irrelevant here because we project or identify with form constantly, being Self-forgetful in the process of life. The Reality of Being is the Witnessing Awareness, not the 'objects' of Awareness.

Your existentialist quotation is just another mentally constipated perception - unable to see the forest for the trees. Actually, unable to discern the Seer from the seen.




You like to call names when you get challenged and I like to give em back to you. Your beliefs are just your personal self aggrandizing, death fearing mythology not different then all the other true believers here. But your ego could never even entertain that and you prove it here over and over.

I haven't given up on you yet Marko's. Sometimes I think you're almost there but then you go off on yourself again. There's still time dude but you aren't getting any younger.:heart::lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/12/07 06:02 PM)


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7749623 - 12/12/07 04:24 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I WAS a scientific materialist until LSD.




What about your LSD experience(s) changed your mind? I mean, I've used LSD and my materialistic view of the world has remained unshaken. I'm interested in hearing your story.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7749628 - 12/12/07 04:24 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

And YOU - YOU just like to pump up this thread so that you can get the little flamey icon thingie and feel proud that your thread is #1.

I refuse to add to this silliness any longer. :mad2: :nono:


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7749641 - 12/12/07 04:27 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
And YOU - YOU just like to pump up this thread so that you can get the little flamey icon thingie and feel proud that your thread is #1.

I refuse to add to this silliness any longer. :mad2: :nono:


I refuse to do that as well.  It's absurd.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Lion]
    #7749644 - 12/12/07 04:27 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Absolutely absurd.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Lion]
    #7749675 - 12/12/07 04:33 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Exactly. It is totally stupid.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7749937 - 12/12/07 05:55 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The experiences in question were not sensory experiences to be interpreted by the rational mind, they were entirely inner experiences. Facticity, for you, more than likely, means demonstrable phenomena. Inner experiences are subjectively experienced within the locus of one human being. Only the effects on that being can serve to manifest the experience[s] to others. I suggest reading Abraham Maslow's Toward a Psychology of Being if you ever become truly interested in mystical experience considered from a psychological perspective.




Yes, I've read quite a few of Maslow's books, and I appreciate many of his ideas. I don't recall any claims by him that mystical experiences are evidence of factual aspects of reality, however.

Again, my objection is to your insistence that your interpretation of your inner experiences is a correct representation of the nature of reality.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7750044 - 12/12/07 06:21 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

You're the one dealing with death anxiety and attributing it, Freud-like, to any and all spirituality. The only thing I prove is your failure to comprehend the position that I support. You're projecting your own issuesonto me with your comments, since there is nothing self-aggrandizing about the inevitability of our death, neither is the a priori assumption of Consciousness even remotely related to a mythology (no players, no story) it is a purely intuitive stance which emerges from the experience of simple awareness (as in Vipassana meditation).

Matter and form are emergent properties of a primal energetic matrix. This is true of particles and bodies forming at the dawn of creation, and it operates in present evolutionary processes which unfold in increasing complexity in The Great Chain of Being. In Victor Frankl's "Dimensional Ontology," identification of a human being as a mind and a body alone, fails to take a higher dimension into acount from which these seemingly separate incomplete dimensions are projected. I don't live in 'Flatland,' and neither do you.



In the words of Frankl:

"Dimensional ontology is far from explaining the mind-body problem. But it does explain why the mind-body problem cannot be be solved. Of necessity the unity of man - a unity in spite of the multiplicity of body and mind - cannot be found in the biological or psychological but must be sought in the noological dimension out of which man is projected in the first place."

The noological (from nous) is Consciousness.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7750126 - 12/12/07 06:45 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Matter and form are emergent properties of a primal energetic matrix. This is true of particles and bodies forming at the dawn of creation, and it operates in present evolutionary processes which unfold in increasing complexity in The Great Chain of Being. In Victor Frankl's "Dimensional Ontology," identification of a human being as a mind and a body alone, fails to take a higher dimension into acount from which these seemingly separate incomplete dimensions are projected. I don't live in 'Flatland,' and neither do you.





Hmmm...so the fact that form is composed of energy means that we are pure awareness?  :confused:  This sounds like supposition and the projection of cherished beliefs onto what we know about the physical nature of the Universe. 

I don't KNOW whether or not energy is composed of awareness, and neither does anyone else.  To state otherwise is to glorify guesswork.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7750297 - 12/12/07 07:24 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The experiences in question were not sensory experiences to be interpreted by the rational mind, they were entirely inner experiences. Facticity, for you, more than likely, means demonstrable phenomena. Inner experiences are subjectively experienced within the locus of one human being. Only the effects on that being can serve to manifest the experience[s] to others. I suggest reading Abraham Maslow's Toward a Psychology of Being if you ever become truly interested in mystical experience considered from a psychological perspective.




But how does a subjective interpretation of a subjective experience (e.g. LSD trip) translate into being a factual representation of the external world? In my opinion, to do so is pure speculation.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7750316 - 12/12/07 07:28 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The experiences in question were not sensory experiences to be interpreted by the rational mind, they were entirely inner experiences. Facticity, for you, more than likely, means demonstrable phenomena. Inner experiences are subjectively experienced within the locus of one human being. Only the effects on that being can serve to manifest the experience[s] to others. I suggest reading Abraham Maslow's Toward a Psychology of Being if you ever become truly interested in mystical experience considered from a psychological perspective.




But how does a subjective interpretation of a subjective experience (e.g. LSD trip) translate into being a factual representation of the external world? In my opinion, to do so is pure speculation.


nice avatar :bowdown:


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Lion]
    #7750345 - 12/12/07 07:33 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

What can I say? I'm a fan of Mr. Harris's books.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7751565 - 12/12/07 11:52 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

My friend thought he couldnt get to work by 4 after school yesterday. Im absolutely positive that he could have walked in that amount of time. Well he begged me and i kept telling him im against the entire principle of inconveniencing others just to pamper your own life.

So he beleived that he couldnt get there by 4, meaning that he needed a ride. When i refused because it messes up my plans he thought i was being a bad friend and screwwing him over. The entire situation fell victim to the man who mistook his belief for a fact.


--------------------
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who matter don't mind and those who mind don't matter
-Dr. Seuss


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7752210 - 12/13/07 02:28 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

the only reason we were put on this earth in the first place was to love. people are to ignorant and brainwashed to understand, life is short and theres no time for fussing and fighting my friends


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Veritas]
    #7752623 - 12/13/07 07:43 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I was not equating physical energies with Consciousness. I was comparing emergent phenomena, and also suggesting that the actuality of human consciousness emerges from the Infinite potentiality whence ALL phenomena originate.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7752630 - 12/13/07 07:54 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

That's because "external world" and internal world are still separated by a wall of skin in your point of view.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7752793 - 12/13/07 09:47 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I was not equating physical energies with Consciousness. I was comparing emergent phenomena, and also suggesting that the actuality of human consciousness emerges from the Infinite potentiality whence ALL phenomena originate.



Wonderful theory, but again, do you have any proof of this?


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7752978 - 12/13/07 11:50 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
That's because "external world" and internal world are still separated by a wall of skin in your point of view.




True, however, it's still completely speculative to say that your interpretation of an LSD trip is the factual truth about our world unless your interpretation can be confirmed somehow.

I'm merely asking for you to 1) explain how your experiences have revealed the truth about our world and 2) how you know that your interpretation is right.


Edited by vigilant_mind (12/13/07 12:08 PM)


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7754775 - 12/13/07 07:25 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
You're the one dealing with death anxiety and attributing it, Freud-like, to any and all spirituality. The only thing I prove is your failure to comprehend the position that I support.  You're  projecting  your own issuesonto me with your comments, since there is nothing self-aggrandizing about the inevitability of our death, neither is the a priori assumption of Consciousness even remotely related to a mythology (no players, no story) it is a purely intuitive stance which emerges from the experience of simple awareness (as in Vipassana meditation).

Matter and form are emergent properties of a primal energetic matrix. This is true of particles and bodies forming at the dawn of creation, and it operates in present evolutionary processes which unfold in increasing complexity in The Great Chain of Being. In Victor Frankl's "Dimensional Ontology,"  identification of a human being as a mind and a body alone, fails to take a higher dimension into acount from which these seemingly separate incomplete dimensions are projected. I don't live in 'Flatland,' and neither do you.



In the words of Frankl:

"Dimensional ontology is far from explaining the mind-body problem. But it does explain why the mind-body problem cannot be be solved. Of necessity the unity of man - a unity in spite of the multiplicity of body and mind - cannot be found in the biological or psychological but must be sought in the noological dimension out of which man is projected in the first place."

The noological (from nous) is Consciousness.




Your  quotations are just another mentally constipated perception - unable to see the forest for the trees. :wink:. Hey does this sound familiar?

The forest you are unable to see is that while I can admit to the fact that you could be right and I could be mistaken you cannot make the same admission because your huge ego is invested in all the effort you have put into your belief system.

This closed mindedness keeps people stuck in paradigms for life.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: gbeatle]
    #7754783 - 12/13/07 07:27 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

gbeatle said:
the only reason we were put on this earth in the first place was to love. people are to ignorant and brainwashed to understand, life is short and theres no time for fussing and fighting my friends




Talk about someone mistaking his belief for a fact.

There is no solid evidence for your beliefs. Nature being red in tooth and claw.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7754816 - 12/13/07 07:32 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Eckhart Tolle has this great rap where he talks about how when one animal eats another, it is doing it out of love for it's own survival or the love of it's kin and has no judgment or prejudice against it's prey...

Dan Winter has measured the EEG and EKG cascades of people showing peaks at golden ratios only when they are feeling "love", contentment, or a calm joy.

Since everything from Galaxies to Hurricanes to whirlpools to ALL lifeforms also exhibit this ratio he says the basic structure of the Universe is indeed made of "Love"...


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Middleman]
    #7754827 - 12/13/07 07:35 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Nice but sounds a bit anthropomorphic to me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7754829 - 12/13/07 07:36 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

The lion truly doth love the zebra. :yesnod:


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7754847 - 12/13/07 07:41 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

The greatest love is consumption, just ask Jesus. Or your Grandma; "Oh your so cute I could just "EAT YOU UP!"

What is kissing but a sort of mutual consumption... or consummation?


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Middleman]
    #7754871 - 12/13/07 07:48 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The greatest love is consumption, just ask Jesus. Or your Grandma




...or Hannibal Lecter.  :wink:


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Veritas]
    #7754923 - 12/13/07 08:00 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

The greatest love is consumption, just ask Jesus. Or your Grandma




...or Hannibal Lecter.  :wink:




Or Salvador Dali.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7755191 - 12/13/07 08:52 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Being hugely aware is not equivalent to having a huge ego. Ego is one's point of view. It is the psychic center of consciousness, not of the entire psyche which includes subconscious and unconscious domains on one end and superconsciousness on the other. Consciousness is like the visible light portion of the entire electromagnetic spectrum. There is a much more cosmic point of view that I defer to, unlike yourself, which dwarfs the perspective available to 'me.' You have made your own ego-centric point of view God, I have not.

I present a series of systems with the intention of organizing the thinking mind. You somehow see 'a' singular belief system that I have put effort into. What exactly do you attribute your own awareness to, btw, electrochemical processes in your cerebrum? Do you know? If not, do you admit of Mystery or do you admit of ignorance? Is it mathematical probability of random interactions over countless aeons of time that you 'believe' in which 'accidentally' resulting in various demonstrable degrees of consciousness in different life forms? What do you observe from the givens? All I ever read from you is your attempt to criticize the mental formulations of others, but what of yourself?

I call the Mystery, Consciousness for very obvious reasons to myself. The complexity of the Great Chain of Being with all of samsara's systems-within-systems operates far more intelligently than a single human consciousness in isolation. More to the point, a singular human consciousness cannot exist independently from the biosphere in which it developed, beginning with the  history of an individual's development within the greater context of human evolution, within the entire history of Earth's evolution. This is not a belief system, this is an observation.

Like an hourglass with the upper part being the Formless Unmanifest of infinite potentialities, the Unmanifest passed through a 'singularity' and form manifested in a primal spacio-temporal-energetic matrix (Gamow's 'Ylem') which was purely energetic and therefore formless (except with regard to the 'edge' of the expanding energies). Over aeons, wave properties assumed particle properties, subatomic properties gave rise to atomic properties and the Great Chain of Being became manifest. Form manifested along with lawfulness. With me so far? Based on this current 'theory,' I have expressed only one 'belief' and that idea is Platonic and Kabbalistic - that the form and lawfulness of the universe is intelligence incarnate. Self-conscious intelligence - the universe aware of itself within the bio-field of a human being somehow reflects the Consciousness of the Unmanifest.

I 'believe' this and only this. No doctrine, no dogma, no mythos. I live my life to express this belief. This is the spiritual lifestyle in which Consciousness becomes the metagoal of my life - the Goal of all lesser goals. Here then is a simple description. What about it? It isn't rife with the burdens of childhood dynamics about God that you demonstrate in your own 'Ahab Complex' with every post. I'm not shaking my fist at the sky like you seem to be doing. It all comes down to being what the Scientologists call being "Clear" in any moment. It is about Realizing my nature as the Clear Light as the Buddhists call it. There is no room for big ego. There is no room for ego at all. 'I' must die, :jesus: the Unmanifest as formless potential alone lives forever because it IS Forever :psychsplit:. I am forever over this tedious interaction.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7755259 - 12/13/07 09:01 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

The densely 'compressed file' of my Highest and Holiest Experiences are 1) not only too personal to relate in a public forum ('Do not cast pearls before swine' with swine being those who would 'trample those pearls underfoot' in the Biblical metaphor) and 2) it would be impossible to type out how certain Experiences of timeless intensity have effected the countless avenues of my own development. The metaphysical implications have, suffice to say, resulted in a very particular personality development, which in turn (like the Buddhist Eight-Fold Path) determined what kind of education, livelihood, partner, friendships, investments, charities, and all other details of my life forever after.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7755262 - 12/13/07 09:02 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

What exactly do you attribute your own awareness to, btw, electrochemical processes in your cerebrum?



I don't think he's attributing it to anything. What I think he's saying(and if he's not saying it then I'll say it) is that he doesn't know and neither do you. You peak experiences may come from the supreme unmanifest, or they may come from electrochemical processes, or some combination of the two. Whichever reality tunnel you choose to accept, just acknowledge that it is in fact a belief and that you could be wrong.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7755284 - 12/13/07 09:05 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Being hugely aware is not equivalent to having a huge ego.

:monkeydance::rofl2:


You have made your own ego-centric point of view God, I have not.


What a stupid statement. I say I don't know if there is a God and am open to anything and this is your reply?

You look more and more like a true believer every word that comes out of you.


I have expressed only one 'belief' and that idea is Platonic and Kabbalistic - that the form and lawfulness of the universe is intelligence incarnate.

I have no problem with any belief that you have. You just seem to think you have a corner on what is real and true because you pontificate with a lot of verbiage. But you just sound egotistical to me. Of course fanatical true believers always think of themselves as truly open minded. You seem anything but.

It isn't rife with the burdens of childhood dynamics about God that you demonstrate in your own 'Ahab Complex' with every post. I'm not shaking my fist at the sky like you seem to be doing.

More nonsense bull pucky from yourself. Because I question the belief that there is a god does not constitute shaking a fist at the sky. If I am shaking a fist it is at the egoic posts of those that humbly admit that they know for certain what reality is and expect us to bow to their superior intellect/wisdom.:crazy2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/13/07 09:08 PM)


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7755335 - 12/13/07 09:12 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think you guys are in love.  :love:


--------------------


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7755343 - 12/13/07 09:13 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

In the same way I love Fivepointer.:lol: Except Markos is much more entertaining.:heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/13/07 09:15 PM)


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7755498 - 12/13/07 09:35 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

gbeatle said:
the only reason we were put on this earth in the first place was to love. people are to ignorant and brainwashed to understand, life is short and theres no time for fussing and fighting my friends




Talk about someone mistaking his belief for a fact.

There is no solid evidence for your beliefs. Nature being red in tooth and claw.



lol whatever. only time will tell if i am right or i am wrong.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: gbeatle]
    #7755626 - 12/13/07 10:07 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

And how, may I know, will time do that? :strokebeard:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7755849 - 12/13/07 10:59 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I AM a true believer.

Nobody bows to me. I'm nobody's boss and nobody's daddy.

You understand nothing. Literally.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7756350 - 12/14/07 12:31 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
You understand nothing. Literally.



If you think that you do, then you understand even less.


--------------------


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7757303 - 12/14/07 07:52 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Right! If you think that you do, you do not. If you Know, directly, unmediated, because the veils parted, then you KNOW. That is gnosis and that is mysticism. Owing to this then, I should henceforth present in the mysticism forum.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7757463 - 12/14/07 10:17 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

That kind of pretentiousness has always been my biggest problem with gnosticism.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7757465 - 12/14/07 10:18 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Don't take it too poorly, but nearly everyone on this forum is pretentious including you and me.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7757477 - 12/14/07 10:30 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Am not! :snub:


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7757533 - 12/14/07 11:01 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I AM a true believer





Yes I know. There are others here using your same Christ symbol, that you vilify. How very interesting and telling. It's really not different except in your mind. You think you know the truth and others who don't share your wisdom do not.

I understand you perfectly, and literally.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7757538 - 12/14/07 11:03 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

If you Know, directly, unmediated, because the veils parted, then you KNOW.

This is the same reasoning fundamentalists use as proof that they know  God personally, are saved and going to heaven.

Of course your revelation is real and theirs are not because they have ulterior motives and you do not. They have fears and you do not. They have ego problems and you do not. They are delusional and you are not.


Owing to this then, I should henceforth present in the mysticism forum.

I agree. Good luck.:thumbup:


Edited by Icelander (12/14/07 12:58 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7761299 - 12/15/07 12:00 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Hey, bully-boy, you're not in any position to be dismissive. I wasn't responding to you. Let me remind you, this is not your personal forum.
You still understand nothing of what I have attempted to convey. Your remarks and your equating my stance to a fundamentalist Christian is completely evident of this. Here is another [Frankl] illustration of your perception of me, the fundamentalist and, say, another completely different position - all of which 'seem' to be the same:



I love models, not just my own. I used to enjoy reconstructing Aurora models of classic monsters. As I matured, I found the addage of 'one picture is worth a thousand words' to take on more meaning.

It blows my mind how you cling to the only tool you seem to have. When all one has is a hammer, one treats everything like a nail. Only in your case you can't seem to hit the nail on the head. You keep reducing a linguistic response of mine about a direct experience to reasoning. I was expressing an Experience, not giving a 'reason.' Not only that, regardless of what you 'think' fundamentalists are trying to do, I am not giving proof about anything any more than I am giving a reason. This is not a geometry proof or a logical syllogism. I have "been Experienced" by a Transcendental Ego. That was my essential Experience - being Experienced as an object by a Transcendental Subject. I have related my Experience, my style of formulating that Experience linguistically. You do not believe that my interpretation is accurate. OK. If that is your point, so what? I'm justing sharing the results of 3+ decades of contemplation. If you cannot appreciate 'my' conclusions, that is not my loss. You probably hate poetry too - it's so...so, unreasonable! :grin:

I have not had a "revelation" in the Biblical sense. I have had a Transcendental Experience which I would classify other than a personal ("I-Thou") revelation.

I do not have an "ulterior motive" in the sense of trying to win believers, converts, or to manipulate someone by fear. My only motive here is to share my Experience with others who might benefit from my data.

I have fear that is a function of the egoic-mind's nature of self-preservation. The ego does not wish to be extinguished. As my egoic mind becomes more quiet relative to my greater Being, the fear diminishes. It leaps up at times of threat, and it must be reduced again by remembering what it is, and that I am not the survival-based emotion of fear.

The ego is not the problem. Living a life oriented to ego-enhancement is the problem: social status, self-importance, wealth and power, ego-inflation in a nutshell is the opposite of humility, quietness, simplicity (versus multi-tasking monkey-mind) and ego-transcendence.

No, I am not delusional. A delusion is a psychosis, it is devoid of reality. The sun is not the size of a basketball and the Earth was not created from stellar matter, cooled and populated by a biosphere in six sidereal days. That is an example of delusional.

Are we clear now?


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7762116 - 12/15/07 05:03 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I have not had a "revelation" in the Biblical sense. I have had a Transcendental Experience

Geez Markos, take a step back and look at yourself. You sound EXACTLY like a fundamentalist whose convinced he's the only one who knows truth:

"I'm special so MY experiences of peeking 'behind the veil' are genuine and transcendental. You're NOT special, so your experiences are aren't of the genuine God... so there!"

This pretty much sums up your entire non-argument: you're better than the rest of us. :rolleyes:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7762136 - 12/15/07 05:08 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Are we clear now?



Let's be clear about one thing: this experience of ego transcendence, no matter how profound it is, is still just another experience, open to multiple interpretations just like any other experience. It is, and shall forever be, a mystery. And that's ok. BE IN THE MYSTERY! Don't try to interpret it as anything more. Actually, feel free to interpret, but don't take any interpretation as fact. You don't KNOW anything other than the fact that you have experienced these things. There's nothing wrong with that. It's part of being human.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7762174 - 12/15/07 05:22 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Hey, bully-boy,

I wasn't responding to you. Let me remind you, this is not your personal forum.

So I'm the first person to respond to a post to someone else here? Markos you seem to be in distress.:crazy2:




You do not believe that my interpretation is accurate. OK. If that is your point, so what? I'm justing sharing the results of 3+ decades of contemplation. If you cannot appreciate 'my' conclusions, that is not my loss. You probably hate poetry too - it's so...so, unreasonable! :grin:

One more time dude. I never said that your interpretation is inaccurate. I stated over and over and over and over that it is impossible to tell with our limited abilities. You could be right. All I said is it was a belief and a belief is not a fact. Our interpretations are just that and can be and most often it seems are inaccurate. So for any human to state that they know what the truth is Hubris.

I have stated nothing more throughout this thread. You have chosen to ignore what I say and continue to rant that somehow it's all different for you. I have pointed out that this is what all those who believe that their version of experience is the accurate/real one do.

  Do you read and understand now?

P.S. Your beliefs are not poetry.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/15/07 06:36 PM)


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7762269 - 12/15/07 05:51 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Nine pages of the same thing over and over. Who said P&S was merely a wankfest?


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7762321 - 12/15/07 06:06 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

So for any human to state that they know what the truth is Hubris.






Murphy: Hey, give the five PhDs business a rest, will you? Nobody likes hubris.
Quinn: Excuse me?
Murphy: Have you learned nothing from Icarus? Antigone? Pantheus? Huh.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7762333 - 12/15/07 06:11 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

He has invested 3 plus decades to the construction of his belief, he can't be wrong! The sole authority is his own imagination, which created what he believes. He claims some linkage to Christianity, yet he rejects every essential doctrine of the faith. His constant appeal to authority (x number of years in college) is only a sign of his own fragility of what he believes since he feels he must resort to this. The usage of complex verbiage is another form of appeal to authority as well (well if he can write like that he must know something and be listened to). The straw man (arguing against something no one has stated) is another tactic employed. Another tactic is to falsely label the opponent and then knock the label, and thus avoid the charge of personal attack and violation of forum rules. All these methods of discussion are dishonest and yet no one calls him on it, amazing!


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7762337 - 12/15/07 06:12 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Actually this is what I had hoped for in this thread. I think its a core concept and needs lots of debate. Especially here.:lol:

I have had to admit to myself that my most cherished ideas about the truth of reality are just my personal beliefs and most likely greatly influenced by the chemical conditions in my brain past and present. Hell maybe my "Spirit Molecule" (DMT) was out of whack.:crazy2:

The above could be incorrect and my original conclusions could be correct but I don't really know how to tell even though as Markos pointed out I have had transcendental experiences in my life.

I am not God or Tao and I do not believe that I have direct knowledge of what it knows or is (if it is even there). It would be Hubris IMO to think or state  that. Even my ego ain't that large.

If being a Gnostic means you know reality then to me that is a true believer just like a fundamentalist Christian who believes that his inner experience was not created by him in his mind but was directly created and delivered by God as divine inspiration.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7762341 - 12/15/07 06:13 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Noun 1. gnosis - intuitive knowledge of spiritual truths; said to have been possessed by ancient Gnostics
intuition - instinctive knowing (without the use of rational processes)

There are aspects of mind beyond "ego" capable of direct comprehension, imo.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: fivepointer]
    #7762347 - 12/15/07 06:15 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
He has invested 3 plus decades to the construction of his belief, he can't be wrong!  The sole authority is his own imagination, which created what he believes.  He claims some linkage to Christianity, yet he rejects every essential doctrine of the faith.  His constant appeal to authority (x number of years in college) is only a sign of his own fragility of what he believes since he feels he must resort to this.  The usage of complex verbiage is another form of appeal to authority as well (well if he can write like that he must know something and be listened to).  The straw man (arguing against something no one has stated) is another tactic employed.  Another tactic is to falsely label the opponent and then knock the label, and thus avoid the charge of personal attack and violation of forum rules.  All these methods of discussion are dishonest and yet no one calls him on it, amazing!



Wow.  This post of yours is surprisingly...rational.  :oogle:


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Middleman]
    #7762348 - 12/15/07 06:16 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Sounds like a cult.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7762367 - 12/15/07 06:21 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

What isn't?


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Middleman]
    #7762384 - 12/15/07 06:25 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

There are aspects of mind beyond "ego" capable of direct comprehension, imo.


Yes you can say it but that's just your opinion Middleman and you say all sorts of fun things.:lol: You almost never demonstrate evidence for your claims. Remember you aren't in the Mystery forum now. Can you demonstrate your opinion/belief in any way?

Maybe you can show me a graph?:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/15/07 06:33 PM)


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7762420 - 12/15/07 06:36 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Hey man, I give evidence for my claims more often than not.

Like when I said the sun flips it's poles every 11 years, and will again in 2012, I gave an actual NASA link,
and who else besides myself has shown the actual stone carving that all the 2012 BS comes from, where upon the Maya did say "something" was going to occur...

At least I try to share USEFUL information and book recommendations, which is more than most of you do...


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Middleman]
    #7762432 - 12/15/07 06:37 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I'm waiting.

which is more than most of you do...


Nice comment moderator. Not to mention untrue.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/15/07 06:39 PM)


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7762458 - 12/15/07 06:45 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Dude, I said "IMO", how could I possibly DEMONSTRATE it? I don't consider my suspicions, views or opinions to be OBJECTIVE FACTS.

Some things can't be proven or disproved so let's MOVE ON.

This forum is what we make it, and it just hasn't been very interesting lately, IMO.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Middleman]
    #7762470 - 12/15/07 06:50 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

This forum is what we make it, and it just hasn't been very interesting lately, IMO.

Well I'm very grateful to know your opinion.

You are not obliged to stay in this forum if you don't like it and I haven't seen you making any interesting posts so I suggest you put up or shut up.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7762490 - 12/15/07 06:54 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I thought my post in the RAW thread about the TOOL show was pretty interesting, but it was ignored.

I thought my post in the Santa thread was more than interesting, but that too was ignored.

I thought my post in God vs. Science was BEYOND interesting, but not a peep in response... :shrug:

Quote:

Dan Winter has measured the EEG and EKG cascades of people showing peaks at golden ratios only when they are feeling "love", contentment, or a calm joy.

Since everything from Galaxies to Hurricanes to whirlpools to ALL lifeforms also exhibit this ratio he says the basic structure of the Universe is indeed made of "Love"...




Maybe we just have different OPINIONS about "interesting".

I'm gone for 2 weeks, peace OUT homie. :kittyeagle:


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Middleman]
    #7762509 - 12/15/07 06:59 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Right. So maybe it's good to keep those kinds of comments to oneself. :wink:

I'm interested in this topic and that works for me. If you are not then you don't need to participate. I certainly won't be offended. If you are interested then please stay.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7762522 - 12/15/07 07:03 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Fine, I guess I won't bother, I'll stick to Moderating and collecting what is useful for my own development.

As you were...


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Middleman]
    #7762523 - 12/15/07 07:03 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Interesting to you and ignored by others. Is there a clue in that observation?


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7762526 - 12/15/07 07:05 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, everyone else is crazy but me. :lol:


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7762529 - 12/15/07 07:05 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Will you be serving refreshments?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7763006 - 12/15/07 09:38 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I do not grok why the relating of my experience by you is interpreted as being in comparison to anyone else's Experience :confused: One...last...time - I did not say that I Know WHAT the Truth IS. That is a subject-object distinction that defies the entire point of the Experience of Union. I did not come back from said Experience and proclaim that "God is Love," or "Nirvana is Samasara and Samsara is Nirvana." These sayings and their extension in systematic religious practice have already been said.

I never said that my Experience is "accurate/real" and others' Experiences are not. I DO believe that mystical Experience is Real, that the Real can suffuse a human awareness to degrees of Communion and Union (depending upon how much ego remains) and that the admission of such Experiences are what constitute the history of religious mysticism.

All objections that I read seem to be objections based on others who have NOT "been Experienced" as I put it (to quote Hendrix) and so, because THEY have not been there, I could not possibly have either. Mystical Experiences were less rare for a period of time when psychedelics were being taken from the mid 1960s to the mid 1970s. Some 'authoities' like R.C. Zaehner argued that the Psychedelic Experience was not identical to genuine Mystical Experience. Many more people disagreed, including Dr. Albert Hofmann. It is amazing that frequenters of a rare forum such as this would be so closed to the metaphysical implications of such Experiences regardless of who had them.

I never said my prose was poetry.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7763069 - 12/15/07 10:04 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry but why does this not jibe with what you have been saying.

In other words, the 'Transcendent Dimension' exists, and not as a mere human idea but as the Universal unmediated Consciousness that some of us carbon-based life-forms will resonate with - those of us who have endeavored to be transformed into Diamond Bodies allowing the Light to fill our consciousness until 'we' Realize that we ARE that Light.

I can find lots of this stuff throughout your replies. So are you saying now that the above statement is only your personal subjective belief and may not be a truth about reality? It's just your best guess based on your experience and beliefs? Tell us Markos.

All objections that I read seem to be objections based on others who have NOT "been Experienced" as I put it (to quote Hendrix)

You assume Markos. You assume your experiences are different from what other people have but do not call or claim the mystical experience. I think Jimmy Hendrix would be wondering if you were experienced.

"Listen Markos if you had the experiences that I have had then of course you would know that I have had a true revelation as to the nature of reality. In other words I know and you don't." -Icelander

The above is pretty much what you have been saying here. But obviously I know better as you can see by what I have just told you.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/15/07 10:11 PM)


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7763217 - 12/15/07 10:38 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Isn't there a "Who has the bigger dick" thread somewhere in OTD?


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7763223 - 12/15/07 10:40 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Isn't there a "Who has the bigger dick" thread somewhere in OTD?



I don't know, but I think that's P+S material anyway.


--------------------


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7763229 - 12/15/07 10:41 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

As to your AH letter, while I think it is very cool, is that not an 'Appeal to Authority' fallacy if you are using it to shore up your position?


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7763238 - 12/15/07 10:42 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Back-to-back, walk ten paces, then unzip!

Seriously though, my clear-white light is clearer and whiter than yours! :razz:


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7763309 - 12/15/07 10:55 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

No matter where you go or what you do, you live your entire life within the confines of your head. ~Terry Josephson

I included that quote because it seemed appropriate at this time in the thread. Feel free to treat it like a clay pigeon.

Actually this has been one of the most interesting threads I have read in here. Controversy, dispute, and throughout all that, a great many good points all around.

More and more I become convinced that the "search", the "truth", the "experience", are inseparable from Josephsons quote. We all come to conclusions based on what is in our head - either as a spiritual revelation, or a mystical experience, or rational theory. IMO there are too many coincidences in all those various forms (and all interpreted differently by people) to relegate them to random parts of the universe. And what is wrong with that? I am so happy that this diversity exists. How droll if we all "knew" the same reality!

Whether someone believes in the gnostic bible, the christian bible, the tao, etc. or no clear doctrine is immaterial to me. While I am on this earth, I want to know what is in his heart. I can understand that. Again IMO, none of us can really understand the mind of another. It is just way too complex to label, and way too much information has been processed and interpreted withinin our years of living to say he is this, she is that, oh, this is what so and so believes. Beliefs are strange in that they are constantly evolving with your experiences within your mind.

  :peace: :sunny:


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7765001 - 12/16/07 01:07 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
As to your AH letter, while I think it is very cool, is that not an 'Appeal to Authority' fallacy if you are using it to shore up your position?




When I used a quote he called it constipated.Your existentialist quotation is just another mentally constipated perception Of course his sources are superior and "right".


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/16/07 01:15 PM)


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: hummermania00]
    #7765010 - 12/16/07 01:09 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hummermania00 said:
No matter where you go or what you do, you live your entire life within the confines of your head. ~Terry Josephson

I included that quote because it seemed appropriate at this time in the thread. Feel free to treat it like a clay pigeon.

Actually this has been one of the most interesting threads I have read in here. Controversy, dispute, and throughout all that, a great many good points all around.

More and more I become convinced that the "search", the "truth", the "experience", are inseparable from Josephsons quote. We all come to conclusions based on what is in our head - either as a spiritual revelation, or a mystical experience, or rational theory. IMO there are too many coincidences in all those various forms (and all interpreted differently by people) to relegate them to random parts of the universe. And what is wrong with that? I am so happy that this diversity exists. How droll if we all "knew" the same reality!

Whether someone believes in the gnostic bible, the christian bible, the tao, etc. or no clear doctrine is immaterial to me. While I am on this earth, I want to know what is in his heart. I can understand that. Again IMO, none of us can really understand the mind of another. It is just way too complex to label, and way too much information has been processed and interpreted withinin our years of living to say he is this, she is that, oh, this is what so and so believes. Beliefs are strange in that they are constantly evolving with your experiences within your mind.

  :peace: :sunny:




Right on.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7766581 - 12/16/07 07:53 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Not support my position, simply share his position as another (and one that I find significant) one with such a position.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7767527 - 12/16/07 11:39 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I cannot understand the last part of your post (with the quotation marks and what follows :confused:).

Lest this become a Woody Allenesque debate  (as in 'Love and Death') about subjectivity and objectivity, all I can say is that the duality of subject-object was transcended to a degree that my egoic mind, replete with individual identity and memories - a personal frame of reference - yielded entirely to an 'Expanse' a 'Radiance' and to "Unbearable Compassion." IF that 'space' exists timelessly, and is eternal, then it exists independently of Markos, OR it may be the true nature of 'my' mind (and every one else's mind too)! The 'space' left an 'impression' on the still existing egoic mind which had temporarily merged into that 'space' and then arose again with memory of that 'space.' Memory consists in 'Experience.' Experience is the subjectively weighted pole of the subjective-objective Union. Mystical Experience MAY then be the impression or temporary reverberation of Reality in the mirror of a mind devoid of subjective impressions (identity, memory, cognitive data and linguistic labels, etc.).

My choice is to regard such Experiences (eternity's impression on mind) as glimpses of the Real. Others have chosen not to regard such Experiences as having such metaphysical gravitas. It may also be (metaphorically of course) that like an electron which seems to behave differently when observed, human consciousness also has certain characteristics which can result in a union with form and result in unconsciousness and annihilation or a Union with Formlessness and Realize itself as formless and eternal Consciousness. This is immensely difficult to grasp and even more difficult to relate linguistically, but it has less to do with the 'my' individual experiences than it seems to do with the nature of mind in general. A merely subjective experience can be deceptive, but a merger in a subject-object transcendence, and a separation again may lead to insight into the nature of the Real.

Jung thought that one loses consciousness in the transcendence of the ego, but this was, as Ken Wilber pointed out, the "pre-trans fallacy." I agree with a book like The Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation which allows for the Experience, and its implications,  as I attempted to describe it above.


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7768665 - 12/17/07 11:32 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

." IF that 'space' exists timelessly, and is eternal, then it exists independently of Markos, OR it may be the true nature of 'my' mind (and every one else's mind too)!

I don't have a problem with anything you have stated in your post (as far as I understand it). I have some suspicions along those lines myself. And since you now say IF and may then we end up on the same page and in agreement with the point of my post.

Now as for yourself you can remain sure of what you believe to be true as that is personal. For myself I can only align with Robert Anton Wilson and say that I am sure of nothing but I suspect many things. This fits in well with my belief that I am a constantly transforming individual and so my understanding of what is real and true changes as I transform myself. What I believe true today might well be just a glimpse of what I believe tomorrow or could even (though unlikely) be totally discarded. To claim other than that for me would be Hubris and an ignorant statement of my total comprehension of Reality or some aspect of it, or if you will, the Mind of God. I believe that just ain't so.:mushroom2:

I really have enjoyed this debate as my current belief/suspicions are relatively new for me and have come at great inner turmoil and disruption of my old world view. Thanks to everyone who participated and especially you Markos for putting some teeth into this. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/17/07 11:34 AM)


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7769799 - 12/17/07 03:58 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Markos & Icelander: :hug:


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7770141 - 12/17/07 05:37 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Do you need a hug dude? You seem to go after people who try to get along here. Don't worry, you are loved.:heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7770239 - 12/17/07 06:04 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Many people love Satan. :satan:


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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]