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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#7757463 - 12/14/07 08:17 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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That kind of pretentiousness has always been my biggest problem with gnosticism.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
#7757465 - 12/14/07 08:18 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Don't take it too poorly, but nearly everyone on this forum is pretentious including you and me.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7757477 - 12/14/07 08:30 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Am not!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#7757533 - 12/14/07 09:01 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: I AM a true believer
Yes I know. There are others here using your same Christ symbol, that you vilify. How very interesting and telling. It's really not different except in your mind. You think you know the truth and others who don't share your wisdom do not.
I understand you perfectly, and literally.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#7757538 - 12/14/07 09:03 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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If you Know, directly, unmediated, because the veils parted, then you KNOW.
This is the same reasoning fundamentalists use as proof that they know God personally, are saved and going to heaven.
Of course your revelation is real and theirs are not because they have ulterior motives and you do not. They have fears and you do not. They have ego problems and you do not. They are delusional and you are not.
Owing to this then, I should henceforth present in the mysticism forum.
I agree. Good luck.
Edited by Icelander (12/14/07 10:58 AM)
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7761299 - 12/15/07 10:00 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hey, bully-boy, you're not in any position to be dismissive. I wasn't responding to you. Let me remind you, this is not your personal forum. You still understand nothing of what I have attempted to convey. Your remarks and your equating my stance to a fundamentalist Christian is completely evident of this. Here is another [Frankl] illustration of your perception of me, the fundamentalist and, say, another completely different position - all of which 'seem' to be the same:

I love models, not just my own. I used to enjoy reconstructing Aurora models of classic monsters. As I matured, I found the addage of 'one picture is worth a thousand words' to take on more meaning.
It blows my mind how you cling to the only tool you seem to have. When all one has is a hammer, one treats everything like a nail. Only in your case you can't seem to hit the nail on the head. You keep reducing a linguistic response of mine about a direct experience to reasoning. I was expressing an Experience, not giving a 'reason.' Not only that, regardless of what you 'think' fundamentalists are trying to do, I am not giving proof about anything any more than I am giving a reason. This is not a geometry proof or a logical syllogism. I have "been Experienced" by a Transcendental Ego. That was my essential Experience - being Experienced as an object by a Transcendental Subject. I have related my Experience, my style of formulating that Experience linguistically. You do not believe that my interpretation is accurate. OK. If that is your point, so what? I'm justing sharing the results of 3+ decades of contemplation. If you cannot appreciate 'my' conclusions, that is not my loss. You probably hate poetry too - it's so...so, unreasonable! 
I have not had a "revelation" in the Biblical sense. I have had a Transcendental Experience which I would classify other than a personal ("I-Thou") revelation.
I do not have an "ulterior motive" in the sense of trying to win believers, converts, or to manipulate someone by fear. My only motive here is to share my Experience with others who might benefit from my data.
I have fear that is a function of the egoic-mind's nature of self-preservation. The ego does not wish to be extinguished. As my egoic mind becomes more quiet relative to my greater Being, the fear diminishes. It leaps up at times of threat, and it must be reduced again by remembering what it is, and that I am not the survival-based emotion of fear.
The ego is not the problem. Living a life oriented to ego-enhancement is the problem: social status, self-importance, wealth and power, ego-inflation in a nutshell is the opposite of humility, quietness, simplicity (versus multi-tasking monkey-mind) and ego-transcendence.
No, I am not delusional. A delusion is a psychosis, it is devoid of reality. The sun is not the size of a basketball and the Earth was not created from stellar matter, cooled and populated by a biosphere in six sidereal days. That is an example of delusional.
Are we clear now?
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#7762116 - 12/15/07 03:03 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I have not had a "revelation" in the Biblical sense. I have had a Transcendental Experience
Geez Markos, take a step back and look at yourself. You sound EXACTLY like a fundamentalist whose convinced he's the only one who knows truth:
"I'm special so MY experiences of peeking 'behind the veil' are genuine and transcendental. You're NOT special, so your experiences are aren't of the genuine God... so there!"
This pretty much sums up your entire non-argument: you're better than the rest of us.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#7762136 - 12/15/07 03:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Are we clear now?
Let's be clear about one thing: this experience of ego transcendence, no matter how profound it is, is still just another experience, open to multiple interpretations just like any other experience. It is, and shall forever be, a mystery. And that's ok. BE IN THE MYSTERY! Don't try to interpret it as anything more. Actually, feel free to interpret, but don't take any interpretation as fact. You don't KNOW anything other than the fact that you have experienced these things. There's nothing wrong with that. It's part of being human.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#7762174 - 12/15/07 03:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hey, bully-boy,
I wasn't responding to you. Let me remind you, this is not your personal forum.
So I'm the first person to respond to a post to someone else here? Markos you seem to be in distress.
You do not believe that my interpretation is accurate. OK. If that is your point, so what? I'm justing sharing the results of 3+ decades of contemplation. If you cannot appreciate 'my' conclusions, that is not my loss. You probably hate poetry too - it's so...so, unreasonable! 
One more time dude. I never said that your interpretation is inaccurate. I stated over and over and over and over that it is impossible to tell with our limited abilities. You could be right. All I said is it was a belief and a belief is not a fact. Our interpretations are just that and can be and most often it seems are inaccurate. So for any human to state that they know what the truth is Hubris.
I have stated nothing more throughout this thread. You have chosen to ignore what I say and continue to rant that somehow it's all different for you. I have pointed out that this is what all those who believe that their version of experience is the accurate/real one do.
Do you read and understand now?
P.S. Your beliefs are not poetry.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (12/15/07 04:36 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7762269 - 12/15/07 03:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Nine pages of the same thing over and over. Who said P&S was merely a wankfest?
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7762321 - 12/15/07 04:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
So for any human to state that they know what the truth is Hubris.

Murphy: Hey, give the five PhDs business a rest, will you? Nobody likes hubris. Quinn: Excuse me? Murphy: Have you learned nothing from Icarus? Antigone? Pantheus? Huh.
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7762333 - 12/15/07 04:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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He has invested 3 plus decades to the construction of his belief, he can't be wrong! The sole authority is his own imagination, which created what he believes. He claims some linkage to Christianity, yet he rejects every essential doctrine of the faith. His constant appeal to authority (x number of years in college) is only a sign of his own fragility of what he believes since he feels he must resort to this. The usage of complex verbiage is another form of appeal to authority as well (well if he can write like that he must know something and be listened to). The straw man (arguing against something no one has stated) is another tactic employed. Another tactic is to falsely label the opponent and then knock the label, and thus avoid the charge of personal attack and violation of forum rules. All these methods of discussion are dishonest and yet no one calls him on it, amazing!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7762337 - 12/15/07 04:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Actually this is what I had hoped for in this thread. I think its a core concept and needs lots of debate. Especially here.
I have had to admit to myself that my most cherished ideas about the truth of reality are just my personal beliefs and most likely greatly influenced by the chemical conditions in my brain past and present. Hell maybe my "Spirit Molecule" (DMT) was out of whack.
The above could be incorrect and my original conclusions could be correct but I don't really know how to tell even though as Markos pointed out I have had transcendental experiences in my life.
I am not God or Tao and I do not believe that I have direct knowledge of what it knows or is (if it is even there). It would be Hubris IMO to think or state that. Even my ego ain't that large.
If being a Gnostic means you know reality then to me that is a true believer just like a fundamentalist Christian who believes that his inner experience was not created by him in his mind but was directly created and delivered by God as divine inspiration.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7762341 - 12/15/07 04:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Noun 1. gnosis - intuitive knowledge of spiritual truths; said to have been possessed by ancient Gnostics intuition - instinctive knowing (without the use of rational processes)
There are aspects of mind beyond "ego" capable of direct comprehension, imo.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: fivepointer]
#7762347 - 12/15/07 04:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said: He has invested 3 plus decades to the construction of his belief, he can't be wrong! The sole authority is his own imagination, which created what he believes. He claims some linkage to Christianity, yet he rejects every essential doctrine of the faith. His constant appeal to authority (x number of years in college) is only a sign of his own fragility of what he believes since he feels he must resort to this. The usage of complex verbiage is another form of appeal to authority as well (well if he can write like that he must know something and be listened to). The straw man (arguing against something no one has stated) is another tactic employed. Another tactic is to falsely label the opponent and then knock the label, and thus avoid the charge of personal attack and violation of forum rules. All these methods of discussion are dishonest and yet no one calls him on it, amazing!
Wow. This post of yours is surprisingly...rational.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Middleman]
#7762348 - 12/15/07 04:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sounds like a cult.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7762367 - 12/15/07 04:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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What isn't?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Middleman]
#7762384 - 12/15/07 04:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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There are aspects of mind beyond "ego" capable of direct comprehension, imo.
Yes you can say it but that's just your opinion Middleman and you say all sorts of fun things. You almost never demonstrate evidence for your claims. Remember you aren't in the Mystery forum now. Can you demonstrate your opinion/belief in any way?
Maybe you can show me a graph?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (12/15/07 04:33 PM)
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7762420 - 12/15/07 04:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hey man, I give evidence for my claims more often than not.
Like when I said the sun flips it's poles every 11 years, and will again in 2012, I gave an actual NASA link, and who else besides myself has shown the actual stone carving that all the 2012 BS comes from, where upon the Maya did say "something" was going to occur...
At least I try to share USEFUL information and book recommendations, which is more than most of you do...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Middleman]
#7762432 - 12/15/07 04:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm waiting.
which is more than most of you do...
Nice comment moderator. Not to mention untrue.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (12/15/07 04:39 PM)
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