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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7723444 - 12/06/07 07:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Any reality that you choose to create for yourself...or have created for you...is just a story. Like a bed time story, it is only the sum of what you have invested, but it is no more real. To feel that one is close to any truth is just delusion built upon delusion, but so what...we are all deluded anyway. We invest so much to create without ever realizing that our existence has no more substance than castles in the air. The experience has a beginning, and that is all we know. Somehow, this is the most comforting way of deluding myself....to believe that I believe nothing.

Well said.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7725400 - 12/06/07 05:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I am gambling every time I pray,

So here you are acknowledging that this is a belief on your part and not actual knowledge of what truth/reality is.

This is the focus of my thread. I see no disagreement between us then.




I believe in Truth, and I believe that prayer is 'applied Truth.'
Prayer, theoretically, is a process in which the Unmanifest becomes manifest, and the ego-mind is 'aligned with' the infinite potential of Being so that a creative fiat originating within the locus of the ego-mind results in manifest actuality. In Biblical language it is the: "I and the Father are One," and the philosophical theology in this is that the 'I' of the ego-mind is experienced as being 'aligned with' (or, more radically, identical with) the Transcendental Ego (the Biblical "I AM").

This is a purely mystical apperception which is sometimes accompanied by what is called 'assurance.' Oftentimes in writings on prayer, as with writings on [transcendental, theurgic] magick, one is instructed to feel that one's intention [will] has been done. Assurance is a spontaneous experience of certitude and it is part of the process of a 'granted' prayer. This assurance is not followed by no results. Moreover, the origination of a prayer event (versus wishful thinking), originates in the Transcendental Ego, not in the ego-mind. The ego-mind is the locus where the Transcendental Ego is experienced, but it appears to be originating in the ego-mind as one's own prayer. This is why in Christian theology the 'Holy Spirit' [Transcendental Consciousness] is said to be the one praying in the believer, and why this constitutes real prayer (a prayer which results in real results).

The 'Knowledge of Truth' lies in the experience of the alignment (the Jungian "ego-Self axis") of the human desire (ego-mind) with which actually manifests in space-time. This is the simplest explication of my experience of petitionary prayer when the prayer has been a rather complex request, not just a coin-toss probability, 0 or 1 matter. I rather think of this as my theory of prayer, not my belief about prayer. Belief sounds too rigidly dogmatic whereas theories can be modified.

There were two competing theological positions in the middle ages about the primacy of 'will' or of 'intellect.' If will can be equated with intentionality (as in the Husserlian phenomenology), then I subscribe to the primacy of will, and then, as you say, thinking makes something out of Pure Consciousness Events (interpretation or belief). Belief then, follows from experience (including mystical/gnostic experience). I would never have developed any belief if I had not first experienced something numinous in the first place.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7725857 - 12/06/07 07:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I would never have developed any belief if I had not first experienced something numinous in the first place.


Of course not, I agree. No one believes anything without some kind of interaction with their "reality". The fact is that each person comes to a conclusion about their perceptions. Two people having a similar experience can perceive it and interpret it as polar opposites. This is of course my only point. Reality is impossible to know. Our brain constructs beliefs based on it's perceptions. Some of these we more or less agree on. This doesn't make them true of course. Most likely we agree on so much because we are similar. A bat or a vulture might not perceive the same as us. Being primates with complex brains determines how we see things and how we construct beliefs.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineGomp
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7732324 - 12/08/07 09:10 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

A fact for whom?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7735715 - 12/09/07 08:36 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Like you said Markos I have had some of the same type of "cosmic" experiences as you. Yet I have come to different conclusions about what they mean. Does this make me wrong and you right? Does this make me right and you wrong? Or does it suggest that we create our beliefs and then defend them?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7738485 - 12/09/07 09:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"I'm always right and never wrong...So vote for me, George Leroy Tirebiter."


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Offlineinv3rse
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7738914 - 12/10/07 12:29 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

So, my parents decided to put me in Catholic School when I was growing up and moved to public school (non-religious obviously) halfway though my 8th grade year. While at private school they taught the regular basics but included "Religion" as a subject each year requiring a passing grade or else you would be held back. I really didn't think much of it until recently, but that is what brainwashed me into BELIEVING that God was the absolute truth and there was nothing else..meaning he created us and all matter, and that all authority for the afterlife was chosen by him (God). Of course I believed it all, and when I moved to public school I would ask my new friends how they felt about it, and some would laugh at the notion that I "knew" God and the heavens and the depths of hell existed.

"Why did I "know" these things existed?" I never could find an answer

Anyway later in life (not too long ago) I have had some major changes in my life that drained me mentally and emotionally. At times in my room crying to God in prayer asking him to help.    nothing. For months and months I was in a heap of trouble I thought I wouldn't get out of. Neither prayer or church would do anything.
I started thinking of things like Hurricane Rita and Katrina, the tsunami that wiped out 230,000(est.), Wildfires in California, record breaking Typhoons in the east, wartime in Iraq, suicide bombings, Faces of Death, rotten.com, no help for me                    I stopped believing.

Now, I KNOW that there is nothing out there but us, the earth, gravity, the cosmos, and beyond and there is nothing else. No God to help, no proof of his existence just assumptions by people who didn't know better thousands of years ago. Now that we have the facts of plain ol' science, how else can you say there is more.

I think catholicism in many years will turn to myth just like "Greek Mythology".



IMHO of course :grin:


--------------------
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or
insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."

"Strange memories on this nervous night in Las Vegas. Five years later? Six? It seems like a lifetime, or at least a main era - -the kind of peak that never comes again. San Francisco in the middle sixties was a very special time and place to be a part of. Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run, but no explanation, no mix of words or music or memories can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and alive in that corner of time and the world. Whatever it meant."

Hunter S. Thompson.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: inv3rse]
    #7739309 - 12/10/07 05:48 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I believe in God, but what is more to the point I also Know God intimately.
You are seeking a spiritual, non-substantial Mystery and 'hoping' that it is a 'He' who will intervene in physical events. THAT is the erroneous mythic notion of God as the Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky. God is the Source wherein the the infrastructure of space-time derives, and space-time is not a changeless reality. Stars are born and die, planets are born and die. On planets, earth, air, fire and water interact continuously and in fact biological life came forth from these elements, guided by and designed by God as far as I am concerned. All biological lives are born and die too, and blaming the very Ultimate Reality for the birth-death cycle of existence, or denying the Intelligence and unimaginable majesty of this Primal Reality are both human reactions to the mind-blowing implications of the Reality of God. Hiding one's head in the seemingly comprehensible reality of the elements of the cosmos is simply that - hiding from the Mysterium Tremendum et Fascinans.

If you have mistakenly read my posts as indicating non-belief, you should understand that it is the mythic and childish notions of God that I take issue with not Ultimate Reality Him-Herself.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (12/10/07 03:20 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: inv3rse]
    #7739562 - 12/10/07 08:02 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Like you, I had the God gene implanted in me in early childhood and so have that belief as part of my landscape no matter how rationally I dispute it.(so far)

But to say there is no God and you are sure is just as much nonsense. You are trading one belief for another. That's not wrong, in fact your new belief may serve you much better, but it's still just a belief. Fact is we just cannot know as far as my experience goes.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/10/07 08:02 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7739566 - 12/10/07 08:03 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I also Know God intimately. belief belief belief.

Ultimate Reality Him-Herself.
  :laugh: Markos knows what ultimate reality is.:whoa::monkeydance:


Edited by Icelander (12/10/07 08:05 AM)


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OfflineBoundless
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7739674 - 12/10/07 09:07 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I believe in God, but what is more to the point I also Know God intimately.
You are seeking a spiritual, non-substantial Mystery and 'hoping' that it is a 'He' who will intervene in physical events. THAT is the erroneous mythic notion of God as the Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky. God is the infrastructure of space-time and space-time is not a changeless reality. Stars are born and die, planets are born and die. On planets, earth, air, fire and water interact continuously and in fact biological life came forth from these elements, guided by and designed by God as far as I am concerned. All biological lives are born and die too, and blaming the very Ultimate Reality for the birth-death cycle of existence, or denying the Intelligence and unimaginable majesty of this Primal Reality are both human reactions to the mind-blowing implications of the Reality of God. Hiding one's head in the seemingly comprehensible reality of the elements of the cosmos is simply that - hiding from the Mysterium Tremendum et Fascinans.

If you have mistakenly read my posts as indicating non-belief, you should understand that it is the mythic and childish notions of God that I take issue with not Ultimate Reality Him-Herself.




If you say you are intimate with God, and then change the definition of God to space-time and full of change, then you are essentially saying you know THE WORLD rather than God.

In your belief God is equal with what dies, and is born. He cannot create everlasting love or joy. The Sons of God have no special inheritance except to die along with the rest of the world. Truth is ever changing. And time and space can disintegrate everything to dust including a soul, which would die along with the rest of the matter in the world.

Gnosticism means knowledge. HOW CAN THERE BE KNOWLEDGE, when truth is ever changing?


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Boundless]
    #7739812 - 12/10/07 10:06 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

It often astounds me that people still talk about or use the word God.

God means the creator.

So if theres a creator then who created the creator?

Chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg...

Surely, simple logic proves all talk of God to be useless?

Or is it the case that we prefer to make up answers ourselves as to why and how we are here as opposed to using logic?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Ego Death]
    #7739842 - 12/10/07 10:14 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ego Death said:
Chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg...





--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Ego Death]
    #7739851 - 12/10/07 10:17 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

So if theres a creator then who created the creator?

God folk would use the same logic that we use for the concept of infinity. There is no way to know as we is finite.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleBIGSWANG
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: BIGSWANG]
    #7740001 - 12/10/07 11:02 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BIGSWANG said:





--------------------
Admin Edit: Your signiture is inappropriate and has been removed.  Do not harass other members in your signiture.  Also refrain from posting links to scat pornography.  If I see anything like that here again, you will be banned.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Boundless]
    #7741098 - 12/10/07 03:03 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I was in a hurry for work. God is THAT whence space-time emerges and from which it is sustained. I should have said the 'Metaphysical' infrastructure, although infrastructure suggests structure, and I didn't mean that either. Perhaps I'll go back and modify the post.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7741148 - 12/10/07 03:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I also Know God intimately. belief belief belief.

Ultimate Reality Him-Herself.
  :laugh: Markos knows what ultimate reality is.:whoa::monkeydance:




I did not say that I Know "what ultimate reality is," I said that I know God [Ultimate Reality]. Huge difference. Your wording does not express what I said. The intimacy of Knowing God is due to the experiencing of Being God insofar as my individual being is not separate or walled-off from Ultimate Being. This statement should NOT be interpreted as my egoic mind is God.

I believe that your awareness and my awareness is still awareness, and that awareness itself, at bottom, is Ultimate Being. I do not have a problem with the word belief as you do. Belief is no more than the words in the preceding sentence. It is the totality of my life experiences distilled down to a brief explication linguistic explication of my conclusions about Reality at the time of this writing. Beliefs may change, intimacy of Being does not.


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Offlinedshroom
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7741158 - 12/10/07 03:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

belief is built of symbolic human representation of creation. the symbols fail to do the job which leads to contention and discord. wisdom is born of silence, beliefs rely upon words and symbols that always fall short. find the quiet behind your eyes, revel in it.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7741656 - 12/10/07 05:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)


I did not say that I Know "what ultimate reality is," I said that I know God [Ultimate Reality]. Huge difference. Your wording does not express what I said. The intimacy of Knowing God is due to the experiencing of Being God insofar as my individual being is not separate or walled-off from Ultimate Being. This statement should NOT be interpreted as my egoic mind is God.


Well how interesting. So what about my experience which is not walled-off from Ultimate Being? It experiences no God.

I don't have a problem with belief as you state. I believe all of it is belief. Belief, belief, belief. We all perceive with our brain/mind then we believe something about what we have perceived. I've been saying this from the very beginning. It's all belief all the way down. No one can say what is "real" because we are separated from reality by belief.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7741756 - 12/10/07 05:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"Human beings are what they understand themselves to be; they are composed entirely of beliefs about themselves and about the world they inhabit. -Michael Oakenhott"

"A susceptibility for recognizing patterns and ascribing order to the world is a powerful urge. The abundance of myths, legends and pseudo-explanations for the world witness to a propensity we have for inventing spurious ordering principles to explain the world. We are afraid of the unexplained. Chaos, disorder, and chance were closely linked to a dark side of the Universe:the antithesis of the benevolent gods. One reason for this is that the recognition of order has passed from having some reward that is beneficial--recognizing food sources , predators, or members of the same species--to becoming and end in itself. There is a satisfaction to be gained from the creation of order, or from the discovery of order. These feelings probably have their origins in an evolutionary past, where the ability to make such identifications was adaptive" ---The Artful Universe


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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