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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7712291 - 12/03/07 06:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Perception as we think of it necessarily involves interpretation. You cannot perceive a tree. The tree is a construct of your mind that is programmed to recognize patterns. Our sees the light reflecting off of the landscape. It sees brown and then green coming out of it. Based on linguistic programming, our mind interprets the perception as "tree." Similarly, you cannot perceive God, no matter how transcendent your experience. You can only perceive sensations, which your mind then interprets as "God."

Try to focus on the print on a newspaper without reading it. Try to just see the black white formations without interpreting them. Can you do it? I can't, and I've tried it numerous times. Such is the nature of perception. And so I ask you: Who is the great master who makes the grass green?


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Offlinenolongerinuse
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7712326 - 12/03/07 06:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You are what you precieve.
Your beliefs define what you are.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7712366 - 12/03/07 06:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I remember looking at news print before I could read, on the floor next to my parents' bed. What I do remember is that I did not like the short word 'no' - there was something negative about it! Indeed!

The thing about perception as Huxley wrote in The Doors of Perception, is that, in certain states, one CAN perceive pre-conceptually. He then went on to describe his perception of a wood chair without the name 'chair' and the associated functions, memories, etc. He described this 'form' of vertical and horizontal lines prior to his association with 'chairness' - a pure idea that goes back to time immemorial.

'GOD' is an exclamation annunciating the most profound experience of pre-conceptual apperception which annihilates any of the conceptual notions stemming from childhood's cultural programming. An experience of the Mysterium Tremendum et Fascinans constituting mysticism (or, more recently, Maslow's "Peak" and "Plateau" experiences, respectively) occurs on a continuum. The less egoic mind that remains to filter the experience, the more ineffable and transforming an encounter with the Ground Consciousness whence mind derives (at least in my understanding).


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7712932 - 12/03/07 09:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

If you doubt every valuational human experience, then you are espousing Nihilism.

I'm not doubting human experience. I'm saying that we have beliefs about that experience and it's the beliefs that rule us. This includes all religions, philosophies, and books by Carlos Castaneda. If you don't believe one perceptual sense then you replace that belief with something else. It's beliefs (like turtles) , all the way down. It matters not if there is a reality out there or not that conforms to our beliefs. We believe and then act on it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7715305 - 12/04/07 12:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

To act on believes only, would be absolute insanity :smile:
There is a constant feed-back to and from 'objective' and 'rational' reality, for halfway's sane people.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7716854 - 12/04/07 06:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You remind me of 'Schultz' in 'Hogan's Heros' : "I see nothing!...I know nothing!"

BTW, we have the "phenomenological reduction," which is about as 'objective' as philosophical analysis goes and describes but does not attribute 'beliefs' to phenomenon. Language can, when used intelligently, become a springboard from which to make intuitive leaps. Intuition may not be your 'superior function' (from an MBTI perspective), because you often overlook its presence and go straight to the 'thinking function.' As Jung quipped, intuition "sees around corners."


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7716912 - 12/04/07 07:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Intuition and logic are both valuable tools, especially when used together, but ultimately it does not change the fact that the world of perception(phenomenon) can never reach the world-as-it-is(noumenon), and if it did, we would have no way of knowing it. In fact, can we even be certain that there is a world independent of our perception of it? Descartes seems to have been on the right track when he pointed out that the only thing he could be certain of was that he was conscious(cogito ergo sum). But any observation beyond that is just an estimate. I refer back to my Husserl quote: "All perception is gamble." Invoke logic, intuition, God, or science all you want, but they're all just gambles.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7717075 - 12/04/07 07:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

No argument with Husserl, but Gnosis is supposed to be the Knowledge in the term Sat Chit Ananda (when Chit is translanslated as Knowledge rather than 'mind-stuff') in which there is no subject-object distinction. This, it seems is an intuitive apperception of the Ground Consciousness. I don't know if Descartes equated consciousness with a quality inherent in beings or whether he held to the primacy of consciousness as the metaphysical Given. Husserl seemed (to me at least) to see consciousness as the Given, and attributed only one 'invariant' feature - intentionality. Consciousness is always conscious of something, even if it is conscious only of itself and consciousness of consciousness seems to be a Transcendental reality, call it whatever you want.

Consciousness is therefore the Noumena from which all phenomena arises. The Noumena is 'Unmanifest' like the 'Ain' designation above Ain Sof Aur and Ain Sof in Kabbalism. It is the 'I' which sees, but which cannot be seen in other language, or the Divine "I AM" of the Bible - pure Identity, pure Will, pure Intentionality. I hate to include A. Crowley with Descartes, Kant and the others, but he did lend some insight via the Tree symbolism in that "The Abyss" is the 'space' in which Da'ath - Knowledge - dwells on the way into Kether (Being). It's the Being-Knowledge of Sat-Chit in a western model. It's not belief here, it's descriptive psychology, only psychology is the subjective pole of a subject-object unity in which the object pole simply doesn't have a name that anyone here wishes to attibute. It is almost like a modern insistance on NOT naming the Unnamable - just like the ancient Hebrews who forbade the pronunciation of the Name YHVH. But I digress and no doubt confuse (Hell, I just confused myself! :confused:)

I am gambling every time I pray, that prayer is the action of the Transcendental operating in my immediate locus of space-time and is aligned with my human intentionality. This was Edward Edinger's description of the "ego-Self" axis that was depicted in stories about Jesus, or in Wilhelm's story of 'The Rainmaker,' or in stories about Neem Karolie Baba. These considerations of the operation of the Noumenal Numinous Transcendental Ego (AKA GOD) make life so much more interesting than being completely skeptical and 'unbelieving.' I cleave to GOD without holding any doctrinal belief about GOD, but unbelief is equally a belief. I will adhere without shame or excuse to the former position and live life 'as if' Transcendental Consciousness - GOD - is Ultimate Reality. It is, as Gandhi called it, "my experiments with truth."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineBrainChemicals
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7717094 - 12/04/07 07:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You list three of the five aggregates in Buddhism. Are you perhaps interested in Buddhism?


--------------------
Laugh and the world laughs with you.
Weep and you weep alone


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7717454 - 12/04/07 09:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
You remind me of 'Schultz' in 'Hogan's Heros' : "I see nothing!...I know nothing!"

BTW, we have the "phenomenological reduction," which is about as 'objective' as philosophical analysis goes and describes but does not attribute 'beliefs' to phenomenon. Language can, when used intelligently, become a springboard from which to make intuitive leaps. Intuition may not be your 'superior function' (from an MBTI perspective), because you often overlook its presence and go straight to the 'thinking function.' As Jung quipped, intuition "sees around corners."




Are you referring to Kant's "sensible intuitions"? I've noticed no two people intuiting the same thing. Of course it's easy enough to forget that when intuition doesn't work. You remind me of Mr. Magoo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7717481 - 12/04/07 09:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Intuition and logic are both valuable tools, especially when used together, but ultimately it does not change the fact that the world of perception(phenomenon) can never reach the world-as-it-is(noumenon), and if it did, we would have no way of knowing it.  In fact, can we even be certain that there is a world independent of our perception of it?  Descartes seems to have been on the right track when he pointed out that the only thing he could be certain of was that he was conscious(cogito ergo sum).  But any observation beyond that is just an estimate.  I refer back to my Husserl quote:  "All perception is gamble."  Invoke logic, intuition, God, or science all you want, but they're all just gambles.




I think Hume would also agree.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7717527 - 12/04/07 09:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Consciousness is therefore the Noumena from which all phenomena arises.

This is pure speculation on Kant's and your part. (pun intended)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7717840 - 12/04/07 10:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

It is, as Gandhi called it, "my experiments with truth."



Nothing wrong with that, as long as you recognize it as such. If you haven't already, I highly recommend reading Robert Anton Wilson(author of my sig quote, as well as Icelander's), starting with the Cosmic Trigger series. He talks a great deal about "reality tunnels," a term coined by Timothy Leary, which are our unique "tunnels" through which we filter the signals our senses receive. Here's a little taste of his philosophy:





Seems rather appropriate to this thread.


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Edited by Silversoul (12/05/07 01:05 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7718873 - 12/05/07 09:08 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I am gambling every time I pray,

So here you are acknowledging that this is a belief on your part and not actual knowledge of what truth/reality is.

This is the focus of my thread. I see no disagreement between us then.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7718891 - 12/05/07 09:15 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)



It's enjoyable to find myself in agreement with you on a thread. I think some here get the impression that I think all their beliefs are impossible nonsense. This is usually not the case. What I am insisting on is the acknowledgment that it is a personal belief and no one can know what the actual truth is. To one who believes they know truth though, my position is taken as a personal affront.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/05/07 09:16 AM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7720556 - 12/05/07 04:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Any reality that you choose to create for yourself...or have created for you...is just a story. Like a bed time story, it is only the sum of what you have invested, but it is no more real. To feel that one is close to any truth is just delusion built upon delusion, but so what...we are all deluded anyway. We invest so much to create without ever realizing that our existence has no more substance than castles in the air. The experience has a beginning, and that is all we know. Somehow, this is the most comforting way of deluding myself....to believe that I believe nothing.

Quote:

Our first attention is hooked to the emanations of the earth, while our second attention is hooked to the emanations of the universe. A dreamer by definition is outside the boundaries of the concerns of everyday life.


- CC


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7721423 - 12/05/07 07:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Mr. Magoo! Love it! Jim Backus' voice. Near-sighted, but I'm far-sighted. I might miss the Earth for the cosmos. Here however, I'm referring to intuition with regard to Ultimate Reality, not a horse at the track. I thought that was what we were discussing.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7721471 - 12/05/07 07:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Consciousness is therefore the Noumena from which all phenomena arises.

This is pure speculation on Kant's and your part. (pun intended)




No, it is my intuition. Speculation, again, would be primarily 'thinking function.'


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7723434 - 12/06/07 07:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Consciousness is therefore the Noumena from which all phenomena arises.

This is pure speculation on Kant's and your part. (pun intended)






No, it is my intuition. Speculation, again, would be primarily 'thinking function.'




And you think about your intuition and then create a belief about what your intuition is and means.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7723437 - 12/06/07 07:58 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Mr. Magoo! Love it! Jim Backus' voice. Near-sighted, but I'm far-sighted. I might miss the Earth for the cosmos. Here however, I'm referring to intuition with regard to Ultimate Reality, not a horse at the track. I thought that was what we were discussing.




Again you believe your intuition informs you about ultimate reality, and you come to this conclusion by thinking about it. Brain, brain, brain, brain.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/06/07 07:59 AM)


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