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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: AlteredAgain]
#7707591 - 12/02/07 05:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Truth is unknowable and unprovable.
Mushroom trip argues that this reasoning leads to scitzophrenic tendancies.
But I can't deny it is the only truth to me.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Ego Death]
#7707650 - 12/02/07 06:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Huh?
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7708016 - 12/02/07 07:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Flunked math.
Why am I not surprised? Dr. Sachs would probably be amused by your thread title too. He's seen some objective facts in his lifetime.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: zappaisgod]
#7708421 - 12/02/07 08:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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the monkey swinging in the tree grasps on the branches and then lets go and repeats. grasping is like belief, holding on to the limb that supports, letting go is like being open (open handed) or allowing for uncertainty. without grasping and letting go there is no swinging going on. (I would have been stuck on my branch if uncertainty was not brought into this.)
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_ đź§ _
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7708468 - 12/02/07 09:07 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: The human brain is geared to believe. It all happens in the brain.
Humans are social animals, and if we didn't have the ability to believe another person... we'd have failed to socially evolve to the place where we are.
Belief fuels creativity.
It is unfortunate we humans are innately gullible.
Our problem isn't our ability to believe... our problem is our ability to believe ANYTHING.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Rose]
#7708476 - 12/02/07 09:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said: Humans are social animals, and if we didn't have the ability to believe another person... we'd have failed to socially evolve to the place where we are.
where are we?
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: AlteredAgain]
#7708510 - 12/02/07 09:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Here.
I don't know if you'll agree.... but we are here.
Right beside the red arrow on the map.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Rose]
#7708524 - 12/02/07 09:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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no, i agree.
i am here too, but you're over there, and we're all over the place.
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machination
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 705
Loc: Hringhorni
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: AlteredAgain]
#7708526 - 12/02/07 09:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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humble bumble pie twere the best i e'er ate
-------------------- "Have you not learned that your word is bond? Yes, my word is bond and bond is life, I shall give my life, before my word shall fail."
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ShrooomKing
Revolving

Registered: 09/12/03
Posts: 153
Loc: Returning to OZ...
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7709409 - 12/03/07 01:01 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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in the center of nothing.
to know you are just a leaf on the river of life, make me happy and sad.
I'll just roll down the street smoke'n on gin an juice.
To much thinking can drive a woman insane and a man crazy.
to me, asking questions seems like you're challenging god. he's unbeatable, but it's good to know we can.
hope is your friend.
-------------------- A driver knows that it is not the road that is his biggest obstacle, rather it is the poles. A great driver understands, the poles will always be there, and he must learn to adjust. I can't keep doing this on my own... with all these... people. -daniel plainview
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ShrooomKing
Revolving

Registered: 09/12/03
Posts: 153
Loc: Returning to OZ...
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Rose]
#7709412 - 12/03/07 01:05 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Our problem is that most believe what benefits them.
When was the last time you heard someone believe in something that screwed them over. People hope for the best, remember.
Reality strikes again.
-------------------- A driver knows that it is not the road that is his biggest obstacle, rather it is the poles. A great driver understands, the poles will always be there, and he must learn to adjust. I can't keep doing this on my own... with all these... people. -daniel plainview
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: ShrooomKing]
#7709418 - 12/03/07 01:10 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
ShrooomKing said: When was the last time you heard someone believe in something that screwed them over?
Oh... about every day.
Don't you ever pay attention to politics?
I think what you are trying to say is more akin to: People do things for positive reasons.
I agree with that... but reasoning, no matter how positive, has little effect on outcome.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Rose]
#7709675 - 12/03/07 05:20 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said:
Don't you ever pay attention to politics?
I don't believe politics exist.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Rose]
#7709826 - 12/03/07 07:35 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said:
Quote:
Icelander said: The human brain is geared to believe. It all happens in the brain.
Humans are social animals, and if we didn't have the ability to believe another person... we'd have failed to socially evolve to the place where we are.
Belief fuels creativity.
It is unfortunate we humans are innately gullible.
Our problem isn't our ability to believe... our problem is our ability to believe ANYTHING.
I agree. We seem to choose many of our beliefs based on our fears and hangups rather than expansive wonder.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: zappaisgod]
#7709829 - 12/03/07 07:39 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Flunked math.
Why am I not surprised? Dr. Sachs would probably be amused by your thread title too. He's seen some objective facts in his lifetime.
Actually I lied. I never flunked math. I cheated my way through it like I did all of high school except history. But having seen your political POV over in that forum I feel quite fortunate.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Middleman]
#7709831 - 12/03/07 07:41 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Middleman said:
Quote:
Cervantes said:
Don't you ever pay attention to politics?
I don't believe politics exist.
Politics = fundamentalist religions
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate



Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 3 days, 16 hours
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7709835 - 12/03/07 07:43 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
I agree. We seem to choose many of our beliefs based on our fears and hangups rather than expansive wonder.
well said
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#7709839 - 12/03/07 07:47 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: There is nothing systematic about my experiences and experiences are not beliefs. I have endeavored to familiarize myself with traditions which have developed around the experiences of their founders in order to find the correct place in my life for these phenomenologically similar experiences. I could not deduce anything further from such experiences, and even to express 'hope' for a 'Final' experience to be similar to one of my own might be selling myself short.
If fearlessness (and hence total acceptance) is the hallmark of "the hero," I am not yet a hero, but I am on a heroic journey with the ever-present potential of seeing things from this liberated seat of consciousness. It comes in glimpses: kenshos and satoris. You've had them, I've had them and it's a matter of deciding their true value. THAT, I believe, is "Right Belief."
Yes, yes, I understand that is your belief. We all have something we consider "right belief" from Jesus to Hitler.
To perceive is to believe IMO. What the thinker thinks the prover proves and thats not just about the big things. That seems to be the way the brain operates all across the human spectrum.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7709973 - 12/03/07 08:55 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: What the thinker thinks the prover proves and thats not just about the big things. That seems to be the way the brain operates all across the human spectrum.
That is a clever way of saying things.
I'll frame your point differently by saying:
"The true skeptics are the curious."
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
#7712120 - 12/03/07 05:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Perception is NOT equivalent to belief. Perception is a non-rational mode of apperception http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/apperception. Belief has a rational-cognitive component even if the rationale is based upon erroneous info. "Right Belief" - one of the Buddhist Eightfold Paths, is NOT based upon a a cognitive construct, it is based upon perception. One MAY not 'believe' one's perceptual [5] senses under certain circumstances, and that illustrates the 'buddhi' or discriminating mind which is based on previous patterns of cause-effect, not upon opinion, supposition, wishful thinking, guesswork, scriptural authority or because your grandma says so. Discriminating mind is apperception which undergirds sensory perception. Beneath that is Pure Consciousness giving rise to both capabilities. "Right Belief" occurs from certain non-rational apperceptions, namely, a non-dualistic point of view which transcends subject-object distinctions.
If you doubt every valuational human experience, then you are espousing Nihilism. I am not a Nihilist. What the Buddhist ego-non-ego dichotomy attempts to illustrate is a sophisticated version of Nagualism as Casteneda attempted to illustrate via the categories of "Tonal" and "Nagual" (for a phenomenological parallel).
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