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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 8,388
Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7762458 - 12/15/07 06:45 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Dude, I said "IMO", how could I possibly DEMONSTRATE it? I don't consider my suspicions, views or opinions to be OBJECTIVE FACTS.

Some things can't be proven or disproved so let's MOVE ON.

This forum is what we make it, and it just hasn't been very interesting lately, IMO.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Middleman]
    #7762470 - 12/15/07 06:50 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

This forum is what we make it, and it just hasn't been very interesting lately, IMO.

Well I'm very grateful to know your opinion.

You are not obliged to stay in this forum if you don't like it and I haven't seen you making any interesting posts so I suggest you put up or shut up.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 8,388
Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7762490 - 12/15/07 06:54 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I thought my post in the RAW thread about the TOOL show was pretty interesting, but it was ignored.

I thought my post in the Santa thread was more than interesting, but that too was ignored.

I thought my post in God vs. Science was BEYOND interesting, but not a peep in response... :shrug:

Quote:

Dan Winter has measured the EEG and EKG cascades of people showing peaks at golden ratios only when they are feeling "love", contentment, or a calm joy.

Since everything from Galaxies to Hurricanes to whirlpools to ALL lifeforms also exhibit this ratio he says the basic structure of the Universe is indeed made of "Love"...




Maybe we just have different OPINIONS about "interesting".

I'm gone for 2 weeks, peace OUT homie. :kittyeagle:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Middleman]
    #7762509 - 12/15/07 06:59 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Right. So maybe it's good to keep those kinds of comments to oneself. :wink:

I'm interested in this topic and that works for me. If you are not then you don't need to participate. I certainly won't be offended. If you are interested then please stay.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 8,388
Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7762522 - 12/15/07 07:03 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Fine, I guess I won't bother, I'll stick to Moderating and collecting what is useful for my own development.

As you were...


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Middleman]
    #7762523 - 12/15/07 07:03 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Interesting to you and ignored by others. Is there a clue in that observation?


--------------------


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/12/99
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7762526 - 12/15/07 07:05 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, everyone else is crazy but me. :lol:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7762529 - 12/15/07 07:05 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Will you be serving refreshments?


--------------------


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7763006 - 12/15/07 09:38 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I do not grok why the relating of my experience by you is interpreted as being in comparison to anyone else's Experience :confused: One...last...time - I did not say that I Know WHAT the Truth IS. That is a subject-object distinction that defies the entire point of the Experience of Union. I did not come back from said Experience and proclaim that "God is Love," or "Nirvana is Samasara and Samsara is Nirvana." These sayings and their extension in systematic religious practice have already been said.

I never said that my Experience is "accurate/real" and others' Experiences are not. I DO believe that mystical Experience is Real, that the Real can suffuse a human awareness to degrees of Communion and Union (depending upon how much ego remains) and that the admission of such Experiences are what constitute the history of religious mysticism.

All objections that I read seem to be objections based on others who have NOT "been Experienced" as I put it (to quote Hendrix) and so, because THEY have not been there, I could not possibly have either. Mystical Experiences were less rare for a period of time when psychedelics were being taken from the mid 1960s to the mid 1970s. Some 'authoities' like R.C. Zaehner argued that the Psychedelic Experience was not identical to genuine Mystical Experience. Many more people disagreed, including Dr. Albert Hofmann. It is amazing that frequenters of a rare forum such as this would be so closed to the metaphysical implications of such Experiences regardless of who had them.

I never said my prose was poetry.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7763069 - 12/15/07 10:04 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry but why does this not jibe with what you have been saying.

In other words, the 'Transcendent Dimension' exists, and not as a mere human idea but as the Universal unmediated Consciousness that some of us carbon-based life-forms will resonate with - those of us who have endeavored to be transformed into Diamond Bodies allowing the Light to fill our consciousness until 'we' Realize that we ARE that Light.

I can find lots of this stuff throughout your replies. So are you saying now that the above statement is only your personal subjective belief and may not be a truth about reality? It's just your best guess based on your experience and beliefs? Tell us Markos.

All objections that I read seem to be objections based on others who have NOT "been Experienced" as I put it (to quote Hendrix)

You assume Markos. You assume your experiences are different from what other people have but do not call or claim the mystical experience. I think Jimmy Hendrix would be wondering if you were experienced.

"Listen Markos if you had the experiences that I have had then of course you would know that I have had a true revelation as to the nature of reality. In other words I know and you don't." -Icelander

The above is pretty much what you have been saying here. But obviously I know better as you can see by what I have just told you.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/15/07 10:11 PM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7763217 - 12/15/07 10:38 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Isn't there a "Who has the bigger dick" thread somewhere in OTD?


--------------------


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7763223 - 12/15/07 10:40 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Isn't there a "Who has the bigger dick" thread somewhere in OTD?



I don't know, but I think that's P+S material anyway.


--------------------


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7763229 - 12/15/07 10:41 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

As to your AH letter, while I think it is very cool, is that not an 'Appeal to Authority' fallacy if you are using it to shore up your position?


--------------------


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7763238 - 12/15/07 10:42 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Back-to-back, walk ten paces, then unzip!

Seriously though, my clear-white light is clearer and whiter than yours! :razz:


--------------------


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Offlinehummermania00
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7763309 - 12/15/07 10:55 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

No matter where you go or what you do, you live your entire life within the confines of your head. ~Terry Josephson

I included that quote because it seemed appropriate at this time in the thread. Feel free to treat it like a clay pigeon.

Actually this has been one of the most interesting threads I have read in here. Controversy, dispute, and throughout all that, a great many good points all around.

More and more I become convinced that the "search", the "truth", the "experience", are inseparable from Josephsons quote. We all come to conclusions based on what is in our head - either as a spiritual revelation, or a mystical experience, or rational theory. IMO there are too many coincidences in all those various forms (and all interpreted differently by people) to relegate them to random parts of the universe. And what is wrong with that? I am so happy that this diversity exists. How droll if we all "knew" the same reality!

Whether someone believes in the gnostic bible, the christian bible, the tao, etc. or no clear doctrine is immaterial to me. While I am on this earth, I want to know what is in his heart. I can understand that. Again IMO, none of us can really understand the mind of another. It is just way too complex to label, and way too much information has been processed and interpreted withinin our years of living to say he is this, she is that, oh, this is what so and so believes. Beliefs are strange in that they are constantly evolving with your experiences within your mind.

  :peace: :sunny:


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7765001 - 12/16/07 01:07 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
As to your AH letter, while I think it is very cool, is that not an 'Appeal to Authority' fallacy if you are using it to shore up your position?




When I used a quote he called it constipated.Your existentialist quotation is just another mentally constipated perception Of course his sources are superior and "right".


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/16/07 01:15 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: hummermania00]
    #7765010 - 12/16/07 01:09 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hummermania00 said:
No matter where you go or what you do, you live your entire life within the confines of your head. ~Terry Josephson

I included that quote because it seemed appropriate at this time in the thread. Feel free to treat it like a clay pigeon.

Actually this has been one of the most interesting threads I have read in here. Controversy, dispute, and throughout all that, a great many good points all around.

More and more I become convinced that the "search", the "truth", the "experience", are inseparable from Josephsons quote. We all come to conclusions based on what is in our head - either as a spiritual revelation, or a mystical experience, or rational theory. IMO there are too many coincidences in all those various forms (and all interpreted differently by people) to relegate them to random parts of the universe. And what is wrong with that? I am so happy that this diversity exists. How droll if we all "knew" the same reality!

Whether someone believes in the gnostic bible, the christian bible, the tao, etc. or no clear doctrine is immaterial to me. While I am on this earth, I want to know what is in his heart. I can understand that. Again IMO, none of us can really understand the mind of another. It is just way too complex to label, and way too much information has been processed and interpreted withinin our years of living to say he is this, she is that, oh, this is what so and so believes. Beliefs are strange in that they are constantly evolving with your experiences within your mind.

  :peace: :sunny:




Right on.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7766581 - 12/16/07 07:53 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Not support my position, simply share his position as another (and one that I find significant) one with such a position.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: Icelander]
    #7767527 - 12/16/07 11:39 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I cannot understand the last part of your post (with the quotation marks and what follows :confused:).

Lest this become a Woody Allenesque debate  (as in 'Love and Death') about subjectivity and objectivity, all I can say is that the duality of subject-object was transcended to a degree that my egoic mind, replete with individual identity and memories - a personal frame of reference - yielded entirely to an 'Expanse' a 'Radiance' and to "Unbearable Compassion." IF that 'space' exists timelessly, and is eternal, then it exists independently of Markos, OR it may be the true nature of 'my' mind (and every one else's mind too)! The 'space' left an 'impression' on the still existing egoic mind which had temporarily merged into that 'space' and then arose again with memory of that 'space.' Memory consists in 'Experience.' Experience is the subjectively weighted pole of the subjective-objective Union. Mystical Experience MAY then be the impression or temporary reverberation of Reality in the mirror of a mind devoid of subjective impressions (identity, memory, cognitive data and linguistic labels, etc.).

My choice is to regard such Experiences (eternity's impression on mind) as glimpses of the Real. Others have chosen not to regard such Experiences as having such metaphysical gravitas. It may also be (metaphorically of course) that like an electron which seems to behave differently when observed, human consciousness also has certain characteristics which can result in a union with form and result in unconsciousness and annihilation or a Union with Formlessness and Realize itself as formless and eternal Consciousness. This is immensely difficult to grasp and even more difficult to relate linguistically, but it has less to do with the 'my' individual experiences than it seems to do with the nature of mind in general. A merely subjective experience can be deceptive, but a merger in a subject-object transcendence, and a separation again may lead to insight into the nature of the Real.

Jung thought that one loses consciousness in the transcendence of the ego, but this was, as Ken Wilber pointed out, the "pre-trans fallacy." I agree with a book like The Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation which allows for the Experience, and its implications,  as I attempted to describe it above.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The man who mistook his belief for a fact. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7768665 - 12/17/07 11:32 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

." IF that 'space' exists timelessly, and is eternal, then it exists independently of Markos, OR it may be the true nature of 'my' mind (and every one else's mind too)!

I don't have a problem with anything you have stated in your post (as far as I understand it). I have some suspicions along those lines myself. And since you now say IF and may then we end up on the same page and in agreement with the point of my post.

Now as for yourself you can remain sure of what you believe to be true as that is personal. For myself I can only align with Robert Anton Wilson and say that I am sure of nothing but I suspect many things. This fits in well with my belief that I am a constantly transforming individual and so my understanding of what is real and true changes as I transform myself. What I believe true today might well be just a glimpse of what I believe tomorrow or could even (though unlikely) be totally discarded. To claim other than that for me would be Hubris and an ignorant statement of my total comprehension of Reality or some aspect of it, or if you will, the Mind of God. I believe that just ain't so.:mushroom2:

I really have enjoyed this debate as my current belief/suspicions are relatively new for me and have come at great inner turmoil and disruption of my old world view. Thanks to everyone who participated and especially you Markos for putting some teeth into this. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/17/07 11:34 AM)


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