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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms
    #7683261 - 11/26/07 07:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

María Sabina became bitter about her many misfortunes, and how others had profited from her name. She also felt that the ceremony of the velada had been desecrated and irremediably polluted by the hedonistic use of the mushrooms: "From the moment the foreigners arrived, the 'holy children' lost their purity. They lost their force, they ruined them. Henceforth they will no longer work. There is no remedy for it."

Shut down your grow rooms boys & girls. The famous shamaness has decreed the mushrooms will no longer work. Go ahead and eat 10 dried grams and - nothing!


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7683300 - 11/26/07 08:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Perhaps she meant something a little more specific or subtle? Not that they wouldn't get people high anymore. This is pure speculation, but maybe she meant that something had shifted in her own culture, due to the massive amounts of attention they'd recieved, and they'd lost a certain connection. Or that the mushroom 'realm' had been polluted by the shitbags travelling there and that had heavily effected the quality of journeying experienced by herself and her people. I'd have to do some ethnographic research to actually interpret this statement with any accuracy... but so would you. :shrug:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7683370 - 11/26/07 08:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The curious folks that went down there such as Wasson, Leary, Lennon, Dylan and others are 'shitbags'?

The Shroomery and the rapid spread of cubensis spores would likely not have happened (or not until much later) if it were not for the visiting westerners tripping out and bringing back samples. Damn them! :mad2:

LSD, peyote, XTC, and other popular drugs did not originate in the PNW - and even though you have local grown psychedelic mushrooms, few if any, were aware of their magic until after Wasson met Sabina.

Many of the foods you eat and things you utilize have been brought from other cultures. Were the traders 'shitbags'? And what of the people that use such things - what does that make them?

No tacos and beer for you, young lady - no tofu or hummus either. :nono:


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7683392 - 11/26/07 08:29 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

It wasn't just the ones you mentioned. A lot of scruffy hippies went down there to eat the mushrooms and generally acted like damn fools. I specifically remember an anecdote somewhere about one of them chasing a chicken through the village, trying to eat it.


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7683439 - 11/26/07 08:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

People act like fools all over the world - even *gasp* the local villagers. That does not change the biochemistry of fungi or plants nor does another person being a jack-ass change one's relationship to the cosmos.

The more likely scenario is: She was the head honcho and liked the adoration for a while from both the locals and the turistas. Then the 'hippies' took the magic back with them and she was no longer in charge of dispensing the hongitos. The high priestess lost some power as spiritual leader and was not pleased.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7683442 - 11/26/07 08:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not making any judgements here, just suggesting that you may have misinterpreted her statement. This is something you are ever so prone to doing when talking about people from other cultures. I used the term 'shitbag' jokingly, and not with the intention to reference to any of the people you listed.

The issue here is analysing Maria Sabina's views. Not mine. I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with the diffusion of culturally valued foods, drugs, objects, tools, stories, practices, etc. This is a simple fact of life. I was suggesting, however, that from her perspective things went to shit after white people started showing up. She wouldn't be the first to feel that way, and her feelings wouldn't be groundless by any means.

From the perspective of a member of culture A, the unusual way culture B regards a diffused item could be disrespectful, blasphemous, or just plain silly. When things diffuse, thier meanings are usually left behind. For something so deeply meaningful to Culture A (and with mushrooms to MS, we're talking world-view, religion - big stuff) to be regarded with a much different set of values in culture B would likely be disconcerting to those who shared it.

Your response had nothing to do with anything I said. You like to play rational, don't you? Well, let's go honey. Anthropology is my forte.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7683501 - 11/26/07 08:50 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The power of a method or process cannot be taken away. The cultural underpinnings, i.e. beliefs, may be lost which are all imaginary to begin with.

We used to eat the mushrooms whole and in pairs while shaking a rattle five times, but the westerners grind em up and just each a handful in juice and do not use a rattle. Now our ceremony won't work even when they are not around.

Her people thought she was necessary for the magic. Outsiders realized the shrooms alone would suffice. It is the Wizard of Oz syndrome.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7683526 - 11/26/07 08:58 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
The power of a method or process cannot be taken away. The cultural underpinnings, i.e. beliefs, may be lost which are all imaginary to begin with.





It doesn't matter whether or not this is true, the point is to understand what she is saying from her perspective. I don't know about you, but I find it sad that our culture storms around the world and tears other's cultures apart, whether intentionally or entirely accidentally.

Every world view is imaginary including ours, but that is what makes a culture a coherent whole. When it is torn apart, it tears the people apart, both as a group and on an individual, psychological level.

You can laugh all you want at the ignorant little brown lady who thought the ceremony mattered, but the fact is, her culture was irrevocably damaged by ours, and I find this a reason to mourn.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7683569 - 11/26/07 09:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

From Wiki: Sabina is regarded as a sacred figure in Huautla. At the same time, her image is used to market various local commercial ventures, from restaurants to taxi companies. T-shirts bearing her image, smoking a filterless Alas cigarette, are sold in markets throughout Mexico.

Damned Gringos! :mad2:

Quote:

the point is to understand what she is saying from her perspective.



I explained it (and my guess is as likely as yours). She welcomed the strangers and basked in the limelight for years before she bitched. She lost HER power, NOT THE MUSHROOMS! No one likes to be exposed or demoted or have their role be diluted. Anyone can test that they still have power so that is not an issue.


On an unrelated topic, I said that I wanted to see YOU dancing bare, not that I wanted to see A dancing bear. Get it right.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7683625 - 11/26/07 09:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

it's the play to win card game mentality that reduced the social/psychological impact of the veladas.

you see, the curiosity of a student is different from the curiosity of a consumer or a gamer.

wasson et al really were students, those who followed were gamers and consumers of experience.

maria's message should dissuade gamers and consumers of experience from further interest.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7683749 - 11/26/07 10:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


From Wiki: Sabina is regarded as a sacred figure in Huautla. At the same time, her image is used to market various local commercial ventures, from restaurants to taxi companies. T-shirts bearing her image, smoking a filterless Alas cigarette, are sold in markets throughout Mexico.

Damned Gringos! :mad2:





Maria Sabina was Mazatec, not Mexican. The state of Mexico is to the Mazatec as the state of Canada or the United States are to the Blackfoot or the Iroquois. The fact that Mexican capitalists have exploited the image of Maria Sabina does not reflect poorly on her or her culture. So what's your point? Do I really have to explain these things to you, or are you willfully ignorant just for fun?


Quote:

On an unrelated topic, I said that I wanted to see YOU dancing bare, not that I wanted to see A dancing bear. Get it right.




:smirk:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7683779 - 11/26/07 10:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Are you having trouble with the word 'local'? First it's the evil white hippies, now it is the Mexican capitalistas? It's a conspiracy!

ALL cultures grow and shrink and absorb or are absorbed by other cultures. Has your ancestry always been rooted to a few square mile radius of where you now live? Have you ever moved? Do you not know that all of mankind emigrated from a small area in Africa?

Must I really explain the nature of change to you or are you just being petulant?


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7683824 - 11/26/07 10:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

It's no a conspiracy, it's the nature of colonization. I clearly understand how this works, and have expressed so numerous times. It's also not about feeling guilty or pointing fingers at white people as a homogenous lump. It is about recognizing history and it's implications.

My family is from Ireland, and I had a very unrooted childhood- moving around constantly. I learned in great detail about the evolution and migration of our species from Africa in an archaeology course I took last year. I am several courses into a probable anthropology degree, and a specific interest of mine is culture change. Before I began my formal studies I did a great deal of personal research on anti-colonial critical theory. Critical ethnography is a particular interest of mine. I fully understand the concept of change, and am being "petulant" because my values regarding it oppose yours. Of the two of us, I am probably the more knowledgeable in this area, and have proven it time and again. You can try all you like to build a straw man to burn down, but it is undeniable that I make the stronger argument.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7683852 - 11/26/07 10:48 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

My family is from Ireland, and I had a very unrooted childhood-moving around constantly.



Destroying cultures wherever you went?

Quote:

it is undeniable that I make the stronger argument.



*Shmoopy scribbles in notebook: Making a claim about the strength of one's argument is in and of itself a valid argument*
A de facto or obvious statement does not need to be made except by someone who doubt's her position.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7684400 - 11/27/07 01:29 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Destroying cultures wherever you went?




Yeah, destroying the mono-culture of the suburbs I bounced between between birth and my teen years. :tongue:

I notice that you rarely respond to the substance of my posts, but rather choose to pick out erroneous, unimportant sentences to joke about. I'd like to see you take a stab at critiquing the fundamental premises of my arguments - which would involve critiquing the validity of the fundamental premises of cultural anthropology and of anti-colonial critical theory. Maybe than we'd actually get somewhere. :shrug:


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7684426 - 11/27/07 01:36 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Maybe than we'd actually get somewhere. :shrug:




This implies a sense of where we should get, does it not? Clearly the thread is getting where the interaction amongst the individuals participating are taking it - it is as it is. One person's sense of where it should get is irrelevant if they are incapable of taking it there, or if others with a different sense choose to act in ways that do not result in it getting there.

There's no "somewhere" to go, when we are already here. :mushroom2:


--------------------
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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7684483 - 11/27/07 02:05 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Listen to Zen Master FWG. :bow:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7684489 - 11/27/07 02:09 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Yeah, destroying the mono-culture of the suburbs




Here you mock the culture of the suburbs (which is far from mono) while elevating less modernistic cultures to rarefied heights. Why is that?

No refrigeration, high infant mortality and superstition = superior and more worthy of preserving?


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7684506 - 11/27/07 02:23 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Our culture, and the culture Maria Sabina came from, treated drugs in very, very different ways. Something I've noticed is that cultures exposed to alcohol generally undergo a transformation in their approach to inebriants in general - into something far more hedonistic. American natives use ayahuasca, peyote, and magic mushrooms as sacraments and medicines; western society has alcohol, and has used it heavily for thousands of years as a straight-up inebriant. Native cultures simply don't have any drugs like alcohol what so ever, and yet our own culture has developed around alcohol as a lubricant for millenia. This causes quite a divide in the way we approach drugs.

In short, even when people like us are tripping and knowingly using a drug that is spiritual and mind-expanding, there tends to be at least a hedonistic tinge in our approach to something that has historically been used in a solemn, spiritual context. That's because the most basic entheogen in our society is alcohol, a simple inebriant that is most widely used to PARTAY.

I don't have a hard time at all imagining that many (not all) of the travelers to Oaxaca had far less respect for the mushrooms than Sabina was willing to accept, and she was legitimately offended by the disrespectful ways of the outsiders. Is it that hard to imagine?


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Tchan909 (11/27/07 02:25 AM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7684516 - 11/27/07 02:28 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

How does one disrespect dead & dried fungal matter?


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7684574 - 11/27/07 04:24 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry, but she sounds like a sore loser. It is very likely she sought profit from introducing it to foreigners, but wasn't savvy enough to pull it off. In the end she allowed others to rob her culture while she profited little.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7685223 - 11/27/07 09:42 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not making any judgements here,

Calling someone a shitbag is a judgement dearie.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7685235 - 11/27/07 09:45 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
María Sabina became bitter about her many misfortunes, and how others had profited from her name. She also felt that the ceremony of the velada had been desecrated and irremediably polluted by the hedonistic use of the mushrooms: "From the moment the foreigners arrived, the 'holy children' lost their purity. They lost their force, they ruined them. Henceforth they will no longer work. There is no remedy for it."

Shut down your grow rooms boys & girls. The famous shamaness has decreed the mushrooms will no longer work. Go ahead and eat 10 dried grams and - nothing!




I no longer have any illusion about the "shamans" out there. In ways they are like modern doctors. (draw your own conclusions)

It seems like mostly primitive superstition same as modern religion. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7685246 - 11/27/07 09:48 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

her culture was irrevocably damaged by ours, and I find this a reason to mourn.

Then IMO, you mourn for your lost dreams and illusions. I did the same for many years. My understanding of how the Tao/Nature words has changed my perspective on what can or cannot be lost or damaged.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7686605 - 11/27/07 04:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
How does one disrespect dead & dried fungal matter?




Imagine, if you will, a foreign visitor to a Catholic eucharist. He doesn't speak the language of the congregation; when the sacramental wine is brought out, he guzzles it and gets loudly drunk. Don't you think the churchgoers might be offended by this display? I wouldn't blame them, and it honestly has nothing to do with whether or not the wine is "really" the blood of Christ, or if the fungus is "really" the flesh of the gods. It's carelessly disrespectful to their beliefs and it is offensive.

It's cynical and culturally self-centered to assume Sabina was just disappointed she couldn't make a profit. It doesn't even make sense; if she wanted to profit from the sacraments, she wouldn't have given them to everybody who visited. She would have noted their interest, feigned ignorance, and then waited for her chance to make a profit. And being that psilocybin never got much of a chance to get marketed, it's not like the door on possibility was ever shut to her, or like she was pushed out of the market by competition. You say she was disappointed she failed to make a profit, when it doesn't appear she ever tried to make one in the first place. We don't know much about her, but I don't think she was stupid, nor do I believe she was a businesswoman.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/27/07 04:09 PM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7686645 - 11/27/07 04:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Nice conflation between disrespecting people and their culture and disrespecting an inanimate object. :rolleyes:

One more time, how does one 'disrespect the mushroom'? We have been on this merry-go-round many times with nary a clear response. To make it simpler, the 'disrespectful' person trips alone. What does that mean to you?


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7686660 - 11/27/07 04:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I just gave you an obvious cultural parallel to disrespected mushrooms... the disrespected eucharist.

Arguing over whether it's possible to "disrespect" a dead, inanimate object is meaningless semantic drivel. The travelers disrespected the beliefs, rituals, and customs of the natives through their approach to magic mushrooms. In doing so, they offended the natives. If you can't understand that, nothing more needs to be said.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Tchan909 (11/27/07 04:16 PM)


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7686715 - 11/27/07 04:27 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Emotionalism and your subjective interpretation aside, I only have her words to go on, NOT YOUR PROJECTION OF WHAT YOU THINK SHE MEANT.

Let's read together again slowly: "They lost their force. Henceforth they will no longer work."

I contend they still work and will wager a large bet, such is my certainty. The chemical keys and neural receptors remain when the cultural trimmings are discarded. One will have an extraordinary experience given a high enough dosage (and recovery period from a previous journey) whether respect or disrespect is part of the pre-trip mindset.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7686758 - 11/27/07 04:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"Emotionalism" is not a part of this.

Sabina said what she did because she regretted her part in what she saw as a desecration of her most sacred link with God. She probably meant that they held no more power in the context of herself as a healer and guide for the village; that her own experience of the mushrooms was sullied by her knowledge of what she had done, and that she no longer wished (or was no longer able) to use and administer them as sacred medicine. Thus, as far as her village was concerned, the mushrooms had indeed become powerless.

You don't want to hear my own interpretation of her words? What DID you have in mind when you made this thread? The Sabina-mockery corner?


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Tchan909 (11/27/07 04:54 PM)


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7686868 - 11/27/07 04:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"They lost their force. Henceforth they will no longer work [towards what I was trying to accomplish by using them]."

I think Tchan is justified in not taking her words so literally. This is what I took from the reading before I had sifted through this thread. The bottom line is that she felt used, it's like attending a wedding just for the sake of the open bar.. or that jesus blood thing.. whatever...


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7687189 - 11/27/07 05:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Of course your opinion is welcome, but it appears to this reader that you are inserting stuff that is not discernable from the quote.

"From the moment the foreigners arrived..."
Apparently not as she took several years to get disillusioned.

Crying over the results of her choices does not sound like a true warrior or path-walker, but a petulant child.

*Petulant is my word-of-the-month*

One more time, no matter whether the visitors were jerks or not, how would that affect the ritual when they were not around? Certainly not the mushrooms as she contends. The ONLY POWER lost was her role as curandero when the villagers realized she was not necessary.

I am going to cook up some very tasty cranberry bread tonight. Come over and get drunk and make fun of my house and make a mess. I will not invite you back, but my cranberry bread will be just as tasty. An efficacious process does not lose power.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: vaportrail]
    #7687238 - 11/27/07 05:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The bottom line is that she felt used,



Her pricked ego = mushrooms do not work? Guess I need a 'hurt feelings to logic' translator.

Quote:

it's like attending a wedding just for the sake of the open bar..



People can be users or jerks, but so what? Now the marriage will fail because of a freeloader? All of the sincere guests' good wishes and sharing of joy has now turned to ashes? The bride & groom's vows are now meaningless and the love has gone because of a mooch? Can you please be more nonsensical?


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7687296 - 11/27/07 05:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

If, as you suggest, Sabina was bitter only because the villagers realized the power mushrooms held on their own by watching the westerners, then my point stands. If the incursions of the foreigners resulted in the destruction of the mushroom traditions, then the mushrooms did indeed lose the power that they had always held for those people. And perhaps they gained a new power. Who knows?

I would argue the finer points with you, but I'm honestly not sure what the finer points are. I don't know how the velada was held and what specifically happened in it, or during Sabina's healing sessions; only that mushrooms were involved.

I honestly don't see why we need to ripping on either Maria Sabina or on the travelers to Oaxaca. There was a clash of cultures, which inevitably results in ideological losses. I don't think any of the western explorers did anything wrong, I just wouldn't hold Sabina's distraught words against her either.


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Edited by Tchan909 (11/27/07 05:51 PM)


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7687362 - 11/27/07 05:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

There was a clash of cultures, which inevitably results in ideological losses.




Only losses; no gains?


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7687389 - 11/27/07 06:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I never said that, nor do I wish the events we discuss never happened. There were clearly gains as well; now we know all about mushrooms and can grow them. I'd say we're better off for it. I don't really know much about what Oaxaca is like in the first place, but I doubt it's really much more different today from in 1957 than anywhere else.

That said, I still sympathize with the loss Sabina undoubtedly felt. Her life, her role in her culture, her entire world was made into a mockery before her eyes. Don't you think you'd be pretty upset?


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Edited by Tchan909 (11/27/07 06:09 PM)


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7687483 - 11/27/07 06:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

She said the mushrooms wouldn't work when they obviously still did.  I agree with you there.  When the westerners came to the "wedding" and drank all her beer, no the marriage isn't going to fail, the love is not gone, and the guests' good wishes haven't turned to ashes, obviously, yes I agree with you again.  So why on earth would she say such a nonsensical statement?  The answer to that question becomes pure speculation, but I suspect that she could not accept her cultural 'power position' being negotiated.  She said these words out of spite, in the words of a "petulant" child.  By the way, what is petulant? :grin:

Anyway, sorry I took those first two things for granted, they just seemed completely obvious and beside the point to me. :crazy:


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7687613 - 11/27/07 06:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

That said, I still sympathize with the loss Sabina undoubtedly felt. Her life, her role in her culture, her entire world was made into a mockery before her eyes. Don't you think you'd be pretty upset?




The only thing certain is change. If all of her discipline and journeys did not teach her the basics then what is the point?

Last week I went down the the health club. One of my compadres was building me up to an outsider from northern Utah. He says to the stranger, "You have to play OG, he is the best!" I have been injured as of late, but as the High Priest of the Racquetball Courts I had to defend our 'tribe'. I took a thrubbing 15-5, 15-7 by the young pistolero.

Now I can no longer find joy in my favorite hobby. The magic is gone! :hissyfit:


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7687679 - 11/27/07 07:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Religion, spirituality, and shamanism all kind of work on different levels than racquetball at the health club, y'know.

I understand your point, that she failed to adapt to change. But are you so sure that if a comparable shift in your own world occurred, that you would take it in stride? There's absolutely no way to be certain. For all you know you could be brushed aside in exactly the same way someday, and you'll want people to listen should you choose to throw a bitchfit over it.

There's no need to judge her. Nobody is perfect.


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Edited by Tchan909 (11/27/07 07:09 PM)


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7687714 - 11/27/07 07:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Right on Tchan for making some real, solid arguments and not filtering them through cultural assumptions and ideologies like our friend Orgone is so prone to do.

The point of the thread is to understand what she meant. The only rational argument in here, with regards to answering the question of her meaning, is what Tchan has outlined. To understand her meaning, we have to understand the context.

Whether or not you think she should have just gotten with the times and adapted is irrelevant. The point is that the way she felt was grounded in the reality of her experience, and it's not so hard to recognize how terribly shattering it must be to have one's world crumble around them. Any statement about what she should have felt or should have done instead is nothing more than the imposition of a value judgement, and is thus a much less rational approach that simply attempting to observe and understand what happened and how that influenced her feelings.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7688412 - 11/27/07 09:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

It is nice to know I am a friend. :hug:

Despite you and T's back-patting, the thrust of this thread was not about somebody's hurt feelings, but about shrooms ALLEGEDLY losing power. As we all know shrooms still work - I win! Yay me! :cheer:

BTW, I may change my screen name to OrproneConclusion.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7688418 - 11/27/07 09:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Good idea. :smirk:


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7688530 - 11/27/07 10:26 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

In that case, yes, we all win. :laugh:


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7688769 - 11/27/07 11:22 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

earlier I pointed out that the issues relate to
comsumer and gaming mentality vs exploration as a fresh student
(the inner code word for the mushrooms was "children").

this seems to be the kind of understanding
that is rampant in this thread.
the most serious empathy here relates to racketball losses.

i think that the group is not equipped to judge the matter at all.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7688814 - 11/27/07 11:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

i think that the group is not equipped to judge the matter at all.




But you are equipped to judge the group?


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7688828 - 11/27/07 11:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

i think that the group is not equipped to judge the matter at all.




But you are equipped to judge the group?




Just as a referee judges a game.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: vaportrail]
    #7689742 - 11/28/07 10:14 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

vaportrail said:
She said the mushrooms wouldn't work when they obviously still did.  I agree with you there.  When the westerners came to the "wedding" and drank all her beer, no the marriage isn't going to fail, the love is not gone, and the guests' good wishes haven't turned to ashes, obviously, yes I agree with you again.  So why on earth would she say such a nonsensical statement?  The answer to that question becomes pure speculation, but I suspect that she could not accept her cultural 'power position' being negotiated.  She said these words out of spite, in the words of a "petulant" child.  By the way, what is petulant? :grin:

Anyway, sorry I took those first two things for granted, they just seemed completely obvious and beside the point to me. :crazy:




:thumbup:


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7689747 - 11/28/07 10:16 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Whether or not you think she should have just gotten with the times and adapted is irrelevant. The point is that the way she felt was grounded in the reality of her experience, and it's not so hard to recognize how terribly shattering it must be to have one's world crumble around them. Any statement about what she should have felt or should have done instead is nothing more than the imposition of a value judgement, and is thus a much less rational approach that simply attempting to observe and understand what happened and how that influenced her feelings.


:thumbup:

But as OC sez: the point is that the shroomies still work.


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Edited by Icelander (11/28/07 10:17 AM)


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7689764 - 11/28/07 10:20 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i think that the group is not equipped to judge the matter at all.

By the same token we would not be able to judge any matter. Good bye to P&S.:hissyfit:


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Icelander]
    #7689823 - 11/28/07 10:37 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Good bye to P&S.:hissyfit:




First Fire, and now Ice!


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Icelander]
    #7690145 - 11/28/07 11:55 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

We don't know if she meant that literally, or if she meant that they no longer worked in terms of thier traditional Mazatec use. The latter is clearly true as the tradition was destroyed. I have a feeling that what she meant by 'work' was more specific than that they can get your rippin' high. She had a very specific concept of thier role and use, so if herself and her people were no longer able to access the spiritual realm the mushrooms took them to, or if they were no longer able to use them for healing anymore because people had become confused by thier sudden exposure to the dominant culture and didn't believe in it anymore, than it makes sense to say that they 'no longer work.' I don't know why this seems so hard to grasp. :shrug:


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7690212 - 11/28/07 12:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Voodoo 'works' for people who believe in it. It does not work on skeptics. Guess that means cultural destruction if a non-believer points that out.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7690281 - 11/28/07 12:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Again, you're skirting around the fact that your argument has been torn apart by making value judgements. The fact is, we've come to a much more rational explantion of Maria's statement than you have provided. What you think of the validity or efficacy of her tradition is completely irrelevant; it ain't your life that was wrapped up in that series of events.

I think it is much more interesting and useful to try to understand people in thier own terms rather than imposing my completely foreign values on them. Your method may give you a feeling of superiority, but it doesn't do much to clarify the meaning or intention of ther person under scrutiny.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7690304 - 11/28/07 12:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You are attempting to undermine my feelings of superiority instead of trying to understand them.

Interesting that you find it verboten to do such a thing to a long-dead person whom you never interacted with, but it is OK to destroy the self-worth of a contemporary. :frown:


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7690684 - 11/28/07 01:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

:lol:

Well, the thing is that views like Maria's have never been used to oppress millions of other poeple. Views like yours ("look at the funny natives and thier meaningless superstitions!") have been used to justify genocide for centuries. ("It is our duty to bring civilization to the backwards indians") I'm not saying that you personally have any role in genocide, just that you are promoting an ideology that has had horrific implications, and thus needs to be deconstructed.

If you want to point out how irrational Maria's perspective supposedly is, than I'm going to point out how irrational your perspective is. That's how it goes. :smirk: We can still be friends, right? A little good natured criticism never hurt anybody.:grin:


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7690709 - 11/28/07 01:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Well, the thing is that views like Maria's have never been used to oppress millions of other poeple. Views like yours ("look at the funny natives and thier meaningless superstitions!") have been used to justify genocide for centuries. ("It is our duty to bring civilization to the backwards indians") I'm not saying that you personally have any role in genocide, just that you are promoting an ideology that has had horrific implications, and thus needs to be deconstructed.



But...but...scientific rationalism has never been oppressive!  It's always the evil religions and mystic-heads that are responsible for the bad things in the world!  :hissyfit:


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Silversoul]
    #7691175 - 11/28/07 04:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You are silly. A logical method of inquiry cannot be oppressive.

Missionaries on the other hand...


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7691194 - 11/28/07 04:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
You are silly. A logical method of inquiry cannot be oppressive.




Try telling that to the lab rats.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7691201 - 11/28/07 04:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Questioning a false statement may lead to genocide? OK, you win this years' prize for the most ridiculous conclusion (Hey - new screen name for ya!)

I guess Galileo, Newton, Einstein, Copernicus and others who questioned false beliefs are right up there with Genghis Khan, Pol Pot & Stalin.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7691211 - 11/28/07 04:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Logical method in itself is of course not oppressive, but since logic is always tied to the human condition, we wont ever encounter pure logic  until the fundamental questions of existance are answered. All your clean cut logical meaning has a basis in myth.

How about Eugenics, ethinic cleansing, etc...All for the logical improvement of the human race :thumbup:


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7691325 - 11/28/07 04:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

It isn't being logical that is oppressive, nor was your argument against Maria Sabina logical. You completely omitted any examination of context, intention, etc. I brought this into the picture, and you have not yet been able to argue against it. If you want to talk logic, try to criticize the logical argument myself and tchan have made against yours, instead of skirting around the issue. I guess it's more fun, and a whole lot easier, to build straw men. When your arguments are exposed for thier inherent weakness, you have a habit of rebutting with 'b-b-b-but...but i'm rational!' Uh, sorry. Not good enough.

The underlying message between "look at the irrational natives and thier silly supersitions" is "we're better because we're rational." And a short skip down that road is "it's better for them to be exposed to our superior way of thinking" and then "it's definitly justified to tear apart the foundations of thier worldview and replace it with ours, whether they like it or not." I am not arguing that you have any personal role in genocide, or that this is your personal view. Rather, I am exposing an important subtext of the ideology you espouse, one that has had a profound impact on the last several centuries of global history. That rationality is the superior mode of thought, and that we are the bearers of it, is a foundational myth of our contemporary culture - it is a myth. It is an ideology. To regard it as the penultimate truth is little different than regarding christianity or whatever else as the penultimate truth. In fact, this attitude that there is one universal, best way to think comes directly from Christianity.It doesn't matter what you believe, the point is that it is seen as the best way for everyone to think and experience the world around them. It's the everyone part that is problematic.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7691604 - 11/28/07 05:22 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

OK, you win. *Shmoopy tosses out 5 pounds of dried cubes*

Quote:

The underlying message between "look at the irrational natives and thier silly supersitions" is "we're better because we're rational."



You almost got it right, but not quite. The Spanish Conquistadors and their priests said "Look at the irrational natives and their silly supersitions. We better supplant them with our silly superstitions."

To my knowledge there has never been an army of scientists/rationalists using any more aggression than words to try to enlighten others.


You get one guess as to:

How many doors I have knocked on to promote my ideas. How many ceremonies I have disturbed because I thought they were silly.
How many churches I have stood outside handing out atheist pamphlets.

You might be surprised to know that I made many friends and pen pals in Tonga during their eight-day independence celebration. The ceremonies included ancient dress, dance, song and traditional dishes. They may never recover from my disturbing presence.

You follow with the caveat that I probably personally did no harm to third-world cultures, yet others with my ideas have - therefore I share some guilt. You win yet another award for worst extrapolation ever on P&S. :trophy:


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7691715 - 11/28/07 05:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

To my knowledge there has never been an army of scientists/rationalists using any more aggression than words to try to enlighten others.




Eugenics. Forced sterilization. Electro-shock 'therapy'. Pavlov's dogs. Vivisection. There are many examples of 'rational' forms of oppression. Authoritarian state communism strongly idealized rationality. You are deluding yourself if you think that religious freaks are the only people who've ever found justification for being shitbags.

I'm not laying a guilt trip on you or anyone. I wouldn't blame some some old Irish Catholic woman for the Crusades. That's just silly.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7691835 - 11/28/07 06:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I see. Mao Tse Tung and Hitler were scientists... :rolleyes:

I think the only way to settle this dispute and end this dead-horse-beaten thread is a mud wrestling match. :yesnod:


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7691844 - 11/28/07 06:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I see. Mao Tse Tung and Hitler were scientists... :rolleyes:



Are you a scientist?  One needn't be a scientist to follow the ideology of scientism, or any other ideology supposedly based on reason and empiricism.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7691915 - 11/28/07 06:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

If I remember correctly, The Nazi's engaged in all kinds of torturous medical experiments on Jews. Scientists carried out these experiments, often with some kind of poorly developed 'greater good' justification. Rational thinking does not prevent a person, scientist or otherwise, from being swayed by a shitty idea.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7691938 - 11/28/07 06:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The raquetball analogy was amazing. :rofl:
Our conclusion is speculation, a value judgement is justified as we are extracting hindsight which could be used in our own lives for the betterment of ourselves or others.  As long as we accept the fact that we are judging a speculation of what occurred, thereby placing no judgement on Maria herself. Then again, speculative hindsight isn't really valid material, rather an excellent source of humour.  I would say she could have used a taste of her own medicine! :laugh:


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7691985 - 11/28/07 06:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

If I remember correctly, The Nazi's engaged in all kinds of torturous medical experiments on Jews.



And thanks to their sacrifice we know know how much cold a human body can endure.

Quote:

Scientists carried out these experiments, often with some kind of poorly developed 'greater good' justification.



Scientists are people with flaws who sometime follow the scientific method. Your point is?




Quote:

Rational thinking does not prevent a person, scientist or otherwise, from being swayed by a shitty idea.



If person A thinks an idea is non-shitty (you could choose a better descriptor) and person B thinks an idea is shitty; who is right? You?

Rational thinking prevent a person from making an irrational decision. It is an amoral process.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7692001 - 11/28/07 06:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Frankly, I'm a little skeptical as to whether any idea is inherently rational. I think it depends on the debate skills of the person arguing the case for it.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Silversoul]
    #7692012 - 11/28/07 06:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Please explain to me how to Think Rationally. I did not realize there was such a thing as an infallible perspective from which to observe the universe.

I'm willing to accept "rational" as an adjective, but "rationality" as a philosophy or way of life does not exist.


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Edited by Tchan909 (11/28/07 06:44 PM)


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7692025 - 11/28/07 06:43 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Thinking Rationally is to agree with what OC believes in. Irrationality is any belief which contradicts his.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7692043 - 11/28/07 06:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I was responding to this statement:

To my knowledge there has never been an army of scientists/rationalists using any more aggression than words to try to enlighten others.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Silversoul]
    #7692079 - 11/28/07 06:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Frankly, I'm a little skeptical as to whether any idea is inherently rational.




:rofl2:

You are communicating to me via a computer (+ electricity + servers + software + switchers, etc.) - based totally on rational thought.

Total number of members * postcounts via computer = hundreds of thousands.

Total number of members * postcounts via telepathy or telekinesis (irrational ideas) is ZERO.

Rational ideas have a basis with one idea following another in a logical fashion and have internal consistency.

Irrational ideas have little or no basis with one idea piled haphazardly upon another and are usually internally inconsistent.

Not to be insulting, but if you cannot distinguish the two... :shrug:


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7692130 - 11/28/07 07:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

An idea, statement, or opinion can be rational. An avenue of thought can be rational. However, rationality is no more than the ability to make rational decisions; it is not a world-view or a philosophy, and it is impossible for any person to hold a 100% rational perspective.

When you parade about the word "rationality" as a justification for your opinions it sounds a lot like fundamentalists waving around the word "Christ" or "Allah." The logic is about the same. A truly rational argument will stand on its own, without having to be designated as such.


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You really are the worst kind of person.



Edited by Tchan909 (11/28/07 07:50 PM)


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7692145 - 11/28/07 07:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Total number of members * postcounts via telepathy or telekinesis (irrational ideas) is ZERO.



Prove it.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Silversoul]
    #7696703 - 11/29/07 08:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Total number of members * postcounts via telepathy or telekinesis (irrational ideas) is ZERO.



Prove it.




Got 'im there.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7697199 - 11/29/07 11:27 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

:yawn: The Swami (now The Shmoopy) $20,000 Telepathy Challenge has no end date and is still open.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7697245 - 11/29/07 11:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Too bad you were the one who made the claim, not me.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Silversoul]
    #7697625 - 11/30/07 04:35 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

lots of
na na na boo boo in this thread
btw
the telepathy challenge regards empathy and telepathy as a commodity or power to be debunked.

anyone who has experienced empathy or telepahy can admit that the experience is closer to a curiosity and affliction than to a power.

for instance, without any prompting and completely out of habit, in the middle of an unusually busy day, I drove to my daughter's house - as I quizzically pulled up to park, (around the corner to her building - i.e. not in sight or anything) she called me all distraught and emotional on the cell phone asking for help.

such events happen all the time, are normal, are not in scope of explanation, amazing, and not a problem.

this is more like the kind of thing that happens; classed as telepathy - it is a curiosity, but as phenomena in general, it does not need an explanation. There is absolutely no apparent cause or effect, merely synchronicity.

this kind of thing which is difficult to describe, can't reasonably be configured into an experiment, and in the end, who is challenging whom in the schmoopy challenge?

Maybe schmoopy would like to be on equal terms with the universe, or at least be the local elected representative in charge of cynicism.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7697634 - 11/30/07 04:51 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

R.O.C. - I like it! :yesnod:

Some 10,000 claims over a lifetime - every single one false or non-demonstrable. Cynicism is realizing that the next claim is also likely to be false? Perhaps that is called wisdom and learning.

Do you still believe in Santa as a real live entity? If yes, you are stupid. If no, you are a cynic. See how the game is played?


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7697698 - 11/30/07 06:19 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I never said people are all clever, nor do I think they can describe what is going on.
which was cause, which was effect and even what is happenning when they think something (zero in on that one with your alacrity please)

naturally the claims to cause effects when the claimers are part of the effect are completely bogus. (the schmoopy challenge is also in that category except for correctly claiming that claims of powers are ridiculous)

testers also do not know what to look for, either in what happenned or what they are trying to watch.

everyone understands this at their own capacity.

Quote:

see how the game is played?




which game?

understanding is not competitive.
some things are not understood yet, which does not mean they do not exist.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7697709 - 11/30/07 06:28 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You win the award for best dodge of 11/30/07. If you do not believe in something that another does, does that make you a cynic? How many things must one disbelieve to meet your definition? At what point does learning come in?

We all know how you like to impress with your obsfucation, but can you not give one direct answer?


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7698181 - 11/30/07 09:53 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

anyone who has experienced empathy or telepahy can admit that the experience is closer to a curiosity and affliction than to a power.

I haven't noticed this "admitting" of any such thing by those who claim telepathy. :tongue: Where else are you posting these days.:lol:


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Icelander]
    #7698301 - 11/30/07 10:37 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I'm sorry,
I know tons of people who have experienced empathy
and some of you may have forgotten
and I know a few people who have experienced telepathy
but that is not in this group - not to say you haven't - but we have not shared that

still
when discussing these events and experiences, I have noticed that the people involved are not enabled or engaged in the process, and it is not at will.
instead it occurs in the way that dreaming does.
suddenly and bewilderingly,
then it is gone, but
the shock of it is something to deal with.

many begin immediately attempting to explain it or to consider they have a gift. Personally, it is not a gift any more than an affliction, and since there is no control over it, and no way to judge that it is other than dreams, I try to act like nothing special at all is going on, and just continue with my day.

I suspect many people completely deny that it happens to them simply because they don't want to deal with the compulsion to make it hard.

Orgone,
you claim I am obfuscating.
I am being very clear about not knowing what it is or how it is done, but I am also saying it happens and I can't fully describe it.

If you want to jam it into a description that fits badly or that makes it something else, then you are succeeding.

syllogistic error occurs when you expect that what you can't explain does not exist.
(it is nearly a god like conceit, the corrolary -also an error- is that by explaining things you create them)

a different syllogistic error occurs when you identify an event as the same as another event when it only has some simmilarities:

for instance:
chupacabras are unknown mysterious - probably hoax material
invasion by aliens are hoax material
some UFO's are known Hoaxes, others are unknown and unexplained
spoon bending is a hoax
telepathic card reading tricks are a hoax
Empathy is known an may be explained by body language when persons are in view of eachother
telepathy is not an explained phenomenon but it is also more commonly suspected than UFO's probably nothing unique or hoaxed in many cases, and yet it also seems to be happenning and not understood.

these are not all the same thing, so the same cynicism is not warranted for each of them.

you can have an open mind which is also cynical, i.e. not convinced of false explanations and syllogistic errors, but not in denial of what is happenning.

I would reccommend that for everyone.

i.e. don't be a dupe, and swami is very good at that side, but keep awake, i.e. don't let the cynical reaction be the kneejerk response when faced with something amazing but out of previous experience.

lots of things have no good words to describe them.

this is not obfuscation, it is an attempt to be truly scientific.
to use accurate or at best suitable words.


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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7698325 - 11/30/07 10:48 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Well maybe it's because were sinners or cynics that we don't experience telepathy. None of my friends ever have either and they constitute a substantial lot over the years. I've always remained open to it but after fifty four years of phonies and blow hards sometimes you just move on.

If I experienced telepathy and I had no control over it, I certainly wouldn't be making any claims about it. I get enough ridicule in life and I see no reason to add to it.

And how would one know that others experience this anyway? If it's just intuition or a feeling guess then I could say I have it. In fact that's why I don't read whole posts especially if they're long.  Give me the first sentence for most posts and I can telepathy the rest.:lol:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Icelander]
    #7699454 - 11/30/07 03:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

yes intuition.


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