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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7688418 - 11/27/07 09:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Good idea. :smirk:


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7688530 - 11/27/07 10:26 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

In that case, yes, we all win. :laugh:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7688769 - 11/27/07 11:22 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

earlier I pointed out that the issues relate to
comsumer and gaming mentality vs exploration as a fresh student
(the inner code word for the mushrooms was "children").

this seems to be the kind of understanding
that is rampant in this thread.
the most serious empathy here relates to racketball losses.

i think that the group is not equipped to judge the matter at all.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7688814 - 11/27/07 11:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

i think that the group is not equipped to judge the matter at all.




But you are equipped to judge the group?


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7688828 - 11/27/07 11:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

i think that the group is not equipped to judge the matter at all.




But you are equipped to judge the group?




Just as a referee judges a game.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: vaportrail]
    #7689742 - 11/28/07 10:14 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

vaportrail said:
She said the mushrooms wouldn't work when they obviously still did.  I agree with you there.  When the westerners came to the "wedding" and drank all her beer, no the marriage isn't going to fail, the love is not gone, and the guests' good wishes haven't turned to ashes, obviously, yes I agree with you again.  So why on earth would she say such a nonsensical statement?  The answer to that question becomes pure speculation, but I suspect that she could not accept her cultural 'power position' being negotiated.  She said these words out of spite, in the words of a "petulant" child.  By the way, what is petulant? :grin:

Anyway, sorry I took those first two things for granted, they just seemed completely obvious and beside the point to me. :crazy:




:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7689747 - 11/28/07 10:16 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Whether or not you think she should have just gotten with the times and adapted is irrelevant. The point is that the way she felt was grounded in the reality of her experience, and it's not so hard to recognize how terribly shattering it must be to have one's world crumble around them. Any statement about what she should have felt or should have done instead is nothing more than the imposition of a value judgement, and is thus a much less rational approach that simply attempting to observe and understand what happened and how that influenced her feelings.


:thumbup:

But as OC sez: the point is that the shroomies still work.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/28/07 10:17 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7689764 - 11/28/07 10:20 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i think that the group is not equipped to judge the matter at all.

By the same token we would not be able to judge any matter. Good bye to P&S.:hissyfit:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Icelander]
    #7689823 - 11/28/07 10:37 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Good bye to P&S.:hissyfit:




First Fire, and now Ice!


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Icelander]
    #7690145 - 11/28/07 11:55 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

We don't know if she meant that literally, or if she meant that they no longer worked in terms of thier traditional Mazatec use. The latter is clearly true as the tradition was destroyed. I have a feeling that what she meant by 'work' was more specific than that they can get your rippin' high. She had a very specific concept of thier role and use, so if herself and her people were no longer able to access the spiritual realm the mushrooms took them to, or if they were no longer able to use them for healing anymore because people had become confused by thier sudden exposure to the dominant culture and didn't believe in it anymore, than it makes sense to say that they 'no longer work.' I don't know why this seems so hard to grasp. :shrug:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7690212 - 11/28/07 12:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Voodoo 'works' for people who believe in it. It does not work on skeptics. Guess that means cultural destruction if a non-believer points that out.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7690281 - 11/28/07 12:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Again, you're skirting around the fact that your argument has been torn apart by making value judgements. The fact is, we've come to a much more rational explantion of Maria's statement than you have provided. What you think of the validity or efficacy of her tradition is completely irrelevant; it ain't your life that was wrapped up in that series of events.

I think it is much more interesting and useful to try to understand people in thier own terms rather than imposing my completely foreign values on them. Your method may give you a feeling of superiority, but it doesn't do much to clarify the meaning or intention of ther person under scrutiny.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7690304 - 11/28/07 12:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You are attempting to undermine my feelings of superiority instead of trying to understand them.

Interesting that you find it verboten to do such a thing to a long-dead person whom you never interacted with, but it is OK to destroy the self-worth of a contemporary. :frown:


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7690684 - 11/28/07 01:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

:lol:

Well, the thing is that views like Maria's have never been used to oppress millions of other poeple. Views like yours ("look at the funny natives and thier meaningless superstitions!") have been used to justify genocide for centuries. ("It is our duty to bring civilization to the backwards indians") I'm not saying that you personally have any role in genocide, just that you are promoting an ideology that has had horrific implications, and thus needs to be deconstructed.

If you want to point out how irrational Maria's perspective supposedly is, than I'm going to point out how irrational your perspective is. That's how it goes. :smirk: We can still be friends, right? A little good natured criticism never hurt anybody.:grin:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7690709 - 11/28/07 01:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Well, the thing is that views like Maria's have never been used to oppress millions of other poeple. Views like yours ("look at the funny natives and thier meaningless superstitions!") have been used to justify genocide for centuries. ("It is our duty to bring civilization to the backwards indians") I'm not saying that you personally have any role in genocide, just that you are promoting an ideology that has had horrific implications, and thus needs to be deconstructed.



But...but...scientific rationalism has never been oppressive!  It's always the evil religions and mystic-heads that are responsible for the bad things in the world!  :hissyfit:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: Silversoul]
    #7691175 - 11/28/07 04:00 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You are silly. A logical method of inquiry cannot be oppressive.

Missionaries on the other hand...


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7691194 - 11/28/07 04:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
You are silly. A logical method of inquiry cannot be oppressive.




Try telling that to the lab rats.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7691201 - 11/28/07 04:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Questioning a false statement may lead to genocide? OK, you win this years' prize for the most ridiculous conclusion (Hey - new screen name for ya!)

I guess Galileo, Newton, Einstein, Copernicus and others who questioned false beliefs are right up there with Genghis Khan, Pol Pot & Stalin.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7691211 - 11/28/07 04:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Logical method in itself is of course not oppressive, but since logic is always tied to the human condition, we wont ever encounter pure logic  until the fundamental questions of existance are answered. All your clean cut logical meaning has a basis in myth.

How about Eugenics, ethinic cleansing, etc...All for the logical improvement of the human race :thumbup:


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Maria Sabina speaking about mushrooms [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7691325 - 11/28/07 04:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

It isn't being logical that is oppressive, nor was your argument against Maria Sabina logical. You completely omitted any examination of context, intention, etc. I brought this into the picture, and you have not yet been able to argue against it. If you want to talk logic, try to criticize the logical argument myself and tchan have made against yours, instead of skirting around the issue. I guess it's more fun, and a whole lot easier, to build straw men. When your arguments are exposed for thier inherent weakness, you have a habit of rebutting with 'b-b-b-but...but i'm rational!' Uh, sorry. Not good enough.

The underlying message between "look at the irrational natives and thier silly supersitions" is "we're better because we're rational." And a short skip down that road is "it's better for them to be exposed to our superior way of thinking" and then "it's definitly justified to tear apart the foundations of thier worldview and replace it with ours, whether they like it or not." I am not arguing that you have any personal role in genocide, or that this is your personal view. Rather, I am exposing an important subtext of the ideology you espouse, one that has had a profound impact on the last several centuries of global history. That rationality is the superior mode of thought, and that we are the bearers of it, is a foundational myth of our contemporary culture - it is a myth. It is an ideology. To regard it as the penultimate truth is little different than regarding christianity or whatever else as the penultimate truth. In fact, this attitude that there is one universal, best way to think comes directly from Christianity.It doesn't matter what you believe, the point is that it is seen as the best way for everyone to think and experience the world around them. It's the everyone part that is problematic.


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