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Offlinemikebart101
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When To Fight Back?
    #7677794 - 11/25/07 12:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Fascist America.

At what point do you physically fight back? What will push you over the edge? What would it take for you to kill a 'police officer'?

I'm curious because people always ask how Hitler came to power. Why didn't the people fight back? What were the Jews waiting for when the SS came knocking on their door?

So what kind of event are you waiting for before you start making noise?

-Martial Law?
-Revoked 2nd Amendment?
-Another Domestic Terrorist Attack that stinks of foul play?
-Secret Police?
-Warantless Searches?
-Cameras in the streets?
-Curfews?

-What else?


--------------------
So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.


Edited by mikebart101 (11/26/07 11:17 AM)


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Offlinedrew345
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: mikebart101]
    #7680027 - 11/25/07 09:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

A credible resistance leader. loss of habeause corpus. warrantless searches. A credible chance of at least a local tactical victory that would inspire confidence that we have a chance to forcefully take our country back


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: drew345]
    #7680053 - 11/25/07 10:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

As far as the Jews.. I'm not sure. If I try to put myself in their shoes and I'm hearing rumors of murders and getting herded into a train heading towards a camp, I think in the back of my mind that I'm probably going to get killed...

But unless it's right there happening in front of me, as a human, I'd think that I'm always going to have enough hope to think that there's no way someone would let anything that crazy happen to me... But by the time my hope deterioriated, I'd be in a situation where I couldn't escape.

I had a co-worker that once said that America isn't really close to a Revolution yet (not that there would ever be one), but when the time comes it will be at a point when the middle class realizes that it has lost all it's power.

Personally.. I think people won't take any action as long as they have 29" flat screen TV's for under 600 dollars, as long as they have a way to finance big ticket items , as long as they have cars with XM satellite for only 10 dollars.

I think once a large number of people who used to be middle class and use to be able to afford simple things like this that are considered luxieries in many country, can no longer afford them and have to cook all three of their meals a day, that's when people will wake up.

I don't think that will happen. Large corporations and private equity firms nowadays seem to be sucking up all the power they can, trying to go back to the days of monopolies in a more sneaky manner. However I think these companies are smart enough to bestow enough goodies to the masses to keep them happy. The more features they pump into cell phones, tv, cars, etc, the more content people are becoming.

I DO believe there is a polarization going on right now where more and more people are getting lumped into either upper or lower classes but I think that's because more people are just getting lazy and I don't think it's happening at that great of a rate. I honestly don't think America is ever going to see another revolution in a war sense. I think eventually we might get a leader that starts pushing us into a more socialist direction.. but nothing really drastic.

I think a global nuclear war is more likely to happen before any kind of american civil war again.


Edited by BrAiN (11/25/07 10:17 PM)


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: mikebart101]
    #7681058 - 11/26/07 09:29 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mikebart101 said:

-Marshall Law?




:banghead:


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7681185 - 11/26/07 10:03 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Hehe. Who's Marshall?

Martial Law doesn't really seem to happen until AFTER people start to rebel... although it tends to escalate the situation even more. It sure has hell seems to be effective though. Just look Pakistan now... Things aren't going to change there that much after these past few years.

Or Kent State. In the latter case it wasn't even declared but look at what a fiasco it was. Did fighting the system back then really change things now? I don't really think so.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: mikebart101]
    #7681193 - 11/26/07 10:05 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Marshall law? Is that where I ride through the town with a Fender stratocaster plugged into a Marshall half-stack cranked all the way up to 10, punishing any law-breaker with some devastating licks?

*Martial


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7681210 - 11/26/07 10:12 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

No it's when you're forced to watch the DVD of "We Are Marshalll" and then have to live by the life lessons given by Denzel Washington.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: When To Fight Back? *DELETED* [Re: BrAiN]
    #7681281 - 11/26/07 10:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by LunarEclipse

Reason for deletion: tvsux



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (11/26/07 10:33 AM)


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #7681294 - 11/26/07 10:37 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I thought about doing a door buster for a tv last thanksgiving, but didn't.

There seems to be a huge price gap in 32 inch tv's. There are some
random names like INSIGNIA and ELEMENT that are around 5-600 and then boom.. it goes to like 900 when you get to the really familiar name brands.

Are the cheaper brands really THAT bad or are the good ones really just THAT good?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: mikebart101]
    #7681509 - 11/26/07 11:40 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I was this close to posting about "Marshall law" yesterday but I thought it would be best if this whole stupid thread just dissipated into the Intraweb aether. Fucking armchair revolutionaries with false grievances. What happened? Your allowance check was late?


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7682069 - 11/26/07 02:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Getting a little personal are we? What got up your butt? Other than the police officer part, what was wrong with his question? It was hypothetical!

You dirty, horrid asshole?


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: mikebart101]
    #7682725 - 11/26/07 05:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

So, what chemical sacraments have you been using to come to this fantastic revelation? I'm sure a lot of people here would like to get some for themselves.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: BrAiN]
    #7682759 - 11/26/07 05:22 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I just thought it was pretty much top to bottom stupid.


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Offlinemikebart101
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7682775 - 11/26/07 05:27 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks bud. :thumbup:


--------------------
So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7682784 - 11/26/07 05:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Just curious zappa, what is your personal "line" which you would never let your government cross before you would seek to take arms against it?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: xFrockx]
    #7682835 - 11/26/07 05:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I got a problem with what Putin and Chavez are doing. Jailing dissenters. As far as I can tell, no one has been jailed for protesting government policy here.


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7682907 - 11/26/07 06:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Martial Law will be declared after the people rebel.

You've already lost haebeus corpus, already have warrentless searches. The presidential directives are already there for it. The government is a puppet for your national bank and military corporations. They've already murdered a few thousand Americans.

The 2nd amendment has just been thrown on the chopping block.

If you are going to rebel, American, do it soon, for the sake of the rest of the world, but most of all, for yourself.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Minstrel]
    #7682963 - 11/26/07 06:29 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Minstrel said:
Martial Law will be declared after the people rebel.



Well, whaddayano, somebody knows what the word is.

You've already lost haebeus corpus,
No we haven't. People who never had it weren't given it.


already have warrentless searches.
we always have had them.
The presidential directives are already there for it. The government is a puppet for your national bank and military corporations.
OK Alex
They've already murdered a few thousand Americans.
Directives that kill? Amazing. Which thousand, by the way? Highway workers?


The 2nd amendment has just been thrown on the chopping block.
The 2nd amendment has been sliced and diced for decades. The Supreme Court can only reinstate it at this point

If you are going to rebel, American, do it soon, for the sake of the rest of the world, but most of all, for yourself.




For the most part we are astonishingly successful and free. Astonishingly.


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InvisibleTomandjerry58
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7686107 - 11/27/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i guess no one will fight for the sick people without health insurance because they will die before there heard. and we will just continue to have a capitalist health program in the united states so the doctors and nurses can drive nice cars and live in three million dollar houses while they decide if a person has enough money to live or die.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #7686144 - 11/27/07 01:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Or Kent State. In the latter case it wasn't even declared but look at what a fiasco it was. Did fighting the system back then really change things now? I don't really think so.

----

I disagree with you there. Kent State was a tipping point for some people, and the nixon white house later acknowledged this was a major turning point for the war.

While people locally didn't really care, mostly, news spread and the insanity of what happened that day reflected poorly on the administration. (there was all sorts of Nixon conspiracy talk but I don't buy that)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #7686251 - 11/27/07 02:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

preschooler said:
i guess no one will fight for the sick people without health insurance because they will die before there heard. and we will just continue to have a capitalist health program in the united states so the doctors and nurses can drive nice cars and live in three million dollar houses while they decide if a person has enough money to live or die.




Fight for them? I have an idea. When you get out of preschool, get a job and adopt a sick person and YOU pay his bills. I'll pay the bills of the sick people I care about. YOU can pay the rest. By the way, poor people are paid for by the government already. What about those retards in Maryland who keep squirting out babies they can't afford, whine about how much health care costs even though they aren't paying for it AND live in quite a nice house and drive two fairly late model SUVs?


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: mikebart101]
    #7686255 - 11/27/07 02:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

as soon as the government starts tracking the ips of all the people who use this website...

seriously though:

i was recently detained for 5 days without being charged with a crime before my release. fucked up huh? i was denied access to a lawyer until 20 minutes before my "trial". thank god i was released because there would have been some cop killin's in the news for you guys to smile about...


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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InvisibleTomandjerry58
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: johnm214]
    #7686260 - 11/27/07 02:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

its so crazy how really jacked up america is.if you really think about capitalism. its basicly "only the stong survive" just like in the animal kingdom. i think the law enforcement in this country is one of the strongest in the world. And we wonder why that is. to keep us humble. although we have higher crime rates than anyone in the world. so then we have our second ammendment right to buy a gun because were so scared of people robbing us or killing us because they have there second ammendment right to buy a gun to rob us with. kind of ridiculous huh? then we have our people that want to make weed legal like me but ofcourse there to scared to stand up to the strongest law enforcement in the world.AND IF YOU EVER THOUGHT THEY WERE GOING TO MAKE IT LEGAL YOU MAY HAVE SMOKED ONE TO MANY.why the hell would they make it legal and destroy one of the biggest money makeing machines they have. law enforcement, judges, states, lawyers all make money off us getting busted. and then we have the good ole christians looking down on us for doing drugs instead of going to there church and giving them money so they can pay the preacher and everyone in the church.

STAND UP AND FIGHT!!!! YEAH RIGHT.. AMERICANS ARE TOO SCARED!!!!!


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #7686272 - 11/27/07 02:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

AMERICANS ARE DOING TOO WELL. No go away, Josef, or Karl, or Hugo or whatever you call yourself these days. The only rationale I have heard you and your ilk offer for confiscating my hard earned wealth is that I have it and you don't.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7686294 - 11/27/07 02:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

agreed. capitalism is a good thing. it is surely better than feudalism and it can't be any worse than communism *cough*20 million dead in china*cough*. the great thing about america is that if you don't like the social and economic position you are in if you work hard enough it will improve! behold social mobility, greater in america than anywhere else in the world. its not like our economy is growing at like 2% each year and we are already the worlds largest economy. we have so many choices that we can make in america on how we want to live our lives. i'm sorry but if you screwed up and smoked to much dope in school to graduate or whatever it isn't my fault and i'll be damned if i have to have my taxes raised to pay for your life's mistakes.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7686295 - 11/27/07 02:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What about those retards in Maryland who keep squirting out babies they can't afford, whine about how much health care costs even though they aren't paying for it AND live in quite a nice house and drive two fairly late model SUVs?




I can vouch for this. I live in MD. Our state flag has a silhouette of a welfare queen squirting out twins in the back of an SUV while her husband appears to be in the drivers' seat exchanging his welfare check for crack.

We may be socialist here in MD, but at least we're not communist like NJ where you legally aren't allowed to pump your own gas.


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Offlinemikebart101
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7686306 - 11/27/07 02:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

So in order to pay for the WAR they raise your taxes and take 2/3 of what you make.


--------------------
So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.


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InvisibleTomandjerry58
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #7686322 - 11/27/07 02:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

HEY I GOT A JOB AND PAY MY HEALTH INSURANCE. but you know what! it isn't good for shit because my health insuranse sucks and so does urs if you have it america. do you know they actually charge more for insurance companies than they do medicare or any government run health care because they can inflate cost in capatalist run health care just like they do with all RETAIL products. so they are actually treating us like objects that you would buy in a store....im not saying anything about medicare im saying that that these hospitals are fucking us when ever they can because it is not regulated by the government.

i believe that all people should be taken care of the SAME rich or poor it shouldn't matter how much money you have.


Edited by Tomandjerry58 (11/27/07 02:55 PM)


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: mikebart101]
    #7686323 - 11/27/07 02:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

If you ever roam around washington DC you'll realize that this city alone probably wastes more per year on bullshit beaurocrat jobs than it does on war.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: mikebart101]
    #7686326 - 11/27/07 02:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

actually taxes were cut prior to the war and have not been raised. this war is unlike any in history since it is funded entirely by selling debt. if the american taxpayer was picking up the bill for the stupidity in iraq we would have pulled out years ago but we aren't so life in america stays easy.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #7686329 - 11/27/07 02:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Like I said. I dunno if we're ready for universal health care yet but.. I say.. Massachusettes started requiring it of all citizens (like car insurance) and subsidies (tax money) is being used to help the poor who can't afford it.

I say sit back for a few years and see how THAT goes.. use MA as a guinea pig and learn what's the best way to approach health care ona federal level.


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Offlinemikebart101
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #7686336 - 11/27/07 02:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

preschooler said:
i believe that all people and should be taken care of the SAME rich or poor it shouldn't matter how much money you have.




Especially when the money is there to do so.

"Sorry you 250,000 homeless Vets, America needs more stealth bombers at 2 bill. a pop."


--------------------
So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #7686373 - 11/27/07 03:05 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

preschooler said:
HEY I GOT A JOB AND PAY MY HEALTH INSURANCE. but you know what! it isn't good for shit because my health insuranse sucks and so does urs if you have it america.[Get a better job] do you know they actually charge more for insurance companies than they do medicare or any government run health care because they can inflate cost in capatalist run health care just like they do with all RETAIL products.[they charge more because they have to subsidize the gummint losers, isn't that what you want everybody to be? A gummint loser? Just who will subsidize the losers then?] so they are actually treating us like objects that you would buy in a store....im not saying anything about medicare im saying that that these hospitals are fucking us when ever they can because it is not regulated by the government.[Hospitals are heavily regulated and hospitals almost ALL operate at a loss]

i believe that all people should be taken care of the SAME rich or poor it shouldn't matter how much money you have.
[That's because you are poor. Would you prefer a lottery system for better doctors? Of course you would since that is the only way you would ever be able to even get in the door of one of my doctors' offices]




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InvisibleTomandjerry58
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: BrAiN]
    #7686498 - 11/27/07 03:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

ofcourse we are ready for universal health care!!! what the hell!! the damn hospitals and the billionare drug companies are not


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #7686509 - 11/27/07 03:39 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Of course public health care will work. Just look what the public school system did for you.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #7686517 - 11/27/07 03:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

universal health care for the poor. how about universal housing loans for the poor. seriously i don't want to pay for a drug dealer to get his gunshot wounds healed after a bad meth deal.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7686520 - 11/27/07 03:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I don't get it. I keep asking this question and everyone keeps ignoring it.

WHY DOES UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE AUTOMATICALLY MAKE EVERYONE THINK THAT HEALTH CARE WILL BE RUN BY THE GOV'T!

It *IS* possible to have a system where everyone is covered under health care but it's still run be private companies.. which causes competition which makes for cheaper rates and better doctors.

Our gov't gives out food stamps but they don't run the damn grocery stores.

Although.. in Montgomery County, MD where I live .. all the liquor stores are owned and run by the county gov't. Now that's scary... plus each supermarket chain is allowed to only sell beer/wine at ONE chain location in the county.

The county next to us won't sell liquor on Sundays.

WTF!

sorry.. off topic rant.


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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: BrAiN]
    #7686547 - 11/27/07 03:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, I agree with that general idea. I favor public health insurance, without government running the hospitals or telling doctors how to do their job.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7686554 - 11/27/07 03:50 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Children are soooooo naive. If the gummint runs all the health insurance then they will set the rates and decide who gets what treatment and by whom.


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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7686561 - 11/27/07 03:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If the gummint runs all the health insurance



Where did I use the word "all"?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7686571 - 11/27/07 03:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I think "universal" encompasses that. Honestly, if it isn't that, I can't understand what you want that is different from now. The poor and the elderly are covered and everybody else can buy whatever they want or can afford.


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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7686588 - 11/27/07 03:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Children are soooooo naive. If the gummint runs all the health insurance then they will set the rates and decide who gets what treatment and by whom.




Like I said.. government doesn't HAVE to run it. It could just give out "food stamp like" vouchers and keep the capitalist, competitive way things are now.

Personally I think our health care SYSTEM ITSELF in America is fine.. I think it's the fact that a lot of people DON'T have access to it is the problem.. that and the fact that when people FINALLY DO get access to it.. they're coming into it with all kinds of health problems that were untreated during their time where they were uninsured.

Like I said.. I'm for the gov't giving vouchers and a universal system that covers everyone.... not for tear jerking reasons, but because I think that it will make the COST of health care go down because we'll be actually preventing a lot of problems before they get too far along and too expensive.


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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7686659 - 11/27/07 04:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

who said i was poor? and why do have to be poor to want universal health care. so if i need surgery for my heart or i get in life threating wreck and i rack up 100000 in medical bills where does that money come from because im sure my insurance company would find some way to deny my coverage. i don't know to many people that have that kind of money rich or poor. and who said u are getting the best health care because you pay more than ur neighbor...nobody wants to help anybody else.EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF. thats some pretty sad shit you know. you know why most countries have socialized health care its because of war or civil wars. so i guess we need something like that to happen for us to pull together


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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #7686717 - 11/27/07 04:27 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe you should read your policy. And if it doesn't cover that maybe you should get another one. As to quality of care, that should be up to you to find out whether your DR is good. Or would you prefer to just be assigned one by some nameless faceless drone and then whine about it if he/she sucks?


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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7686749 - 11/27/07 04:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

again... straw man argument. Way to attack an argument here that NO ONE has made.

Who ever said that universal health care means you get assigned some nameless drone? Way to go, zappa. You've effectively beaten an argument that no one has asserted. Here's some play doh. Go make me an elephant or a doggie.

I don't think he's talking about something not being covered.. I think he's, saying pretty much all health insurance carriers look for any kind of loophole to get out having to pay for something.


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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: BrAiN]
    #7686826 - 11/27/07 04:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

thank you brain thats exactly what i meant. i enjoyed the debate zappaisgod. its always good to know where ohers stand on the issue:)


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #7686847 - 11/27/07 04:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

lets say i grant you your health coverage voucher program. what are you going to do with alcoholics and smokers? is the government going to help the drug dealer who gets shot when things go bad? basically, am i going to be paying to give medical attention to someone who needs it because of poor life choices?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7686861 - 11/27/07 04:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

drug dealers do a lot of good. don't forget that


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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7686887 - 11/27/07 04:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

If we had sane drug laws, we wouldn't have to worry about drug dealers shooting each other.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7686943 - 11/27/07 05:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

but what about the millions of dollars that would be needed to treat victims of smoking related illnesses etc not to mention the illnesses that would most likely accompany the legalization of currently illegal drugs?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #7686952 - 11/27/07 05:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

If you read your policy and it says you are covered YOU ARE COVERED.  Take responsibility for your life and don't bother whining about how you are sure somebody is going to screw you.  Don't let them.  Caveat emptor.  Grow up.  Or get a better policy.  Some of them have zero loopholes.:shocked:


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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7687037 - 11/27/07 05:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I think I saw a study about that. Where people who live unhealthy lives die at an earlier age, and therefore cost society less than people who grow really old.


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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Arp]
    #7687052 - 11/27/07 05:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

right but when you have 10+ million smokers demanding health coverage from their illnesses what will your plan do? tell them to suck it up and die quickly so the rest of society can live longer? isn't that a total contradiction of universal health care/insurance to begin with?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7687112 - 11/27/07 05:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
right but when you have 10+ million smokers demanding health coverage from their illnesses what will your plan do? tell them to suck it up and die quickly so the rest of society can live longer? isn't that a total contradiction of universal health care/insurance to begin with?



I think he's saying that even with treatment, they die earlier, thus saving the health care system more money.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7687184 - 11/27/07 05:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Well, it's not so much health care as soc sec. Anyway, here's how smokers get treated in a socialized system:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=459574&in_page_id=1770

Quote:

Smokers are to be denied operations on the Health Service unless they give up cigarettes for at least four weeks beforehand.

Doctors will police the rule by ordering patients to take a blood test to prove they have not been smoking.




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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7687221 - 11/27/07 05:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

so the plan is to give them treatment at the costs of millions of taxpayer dollars and then hope that they die early so the system saves money?

i'm confused...


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7687310 - 11/27/07 05:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)



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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7687319 - 11/27/07 05:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
lets say i grant you your health coverage voucher program. what are you going to do with alcoholics and smokers? is the government going to help the drug dealer who gets shot when things go bad? basically, am i going to be paying to give medical attention to someone who needs it because of poor life choices?




Then u make these people pay more. When you buy health insurance through an employer you can't be denied. When you buy it as a private consumer you have to fill out all these questionaires and if they want to conduct tests on you, they're allowed to. There ARE tests for smoking and alcohol. Make people take these tests. If they have habits that are a drag on the system.. make them pay more.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7687337 - 11/27/07 05:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Well, it's not so much health care as soc sec. Anyway, here's how smokers get treated in a socialized system:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=459574&in_page_id=1770

Quote:

Smokers are to be denied operations on the Health Service unless they give up cigarettes for at least four weeks beforehand.

Doctors will police the rule by ordering patients to take a blood test to prove they have not been smoking.







Sounds fair enough to me.... only instead of denying them anything just make them pay a shitload more for it. In a socialized system it seems only fair that if you do things that are knowingly going to cause 10 times as many problems and are in the same system as people who don't.. you should pay more.

Like I said.. some insurance companies and life insurance companies in America already do this if you get your coverage OUTSIDE of an employer plan.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7687363 - 11/27/07 05:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If you read your policy and it says you are covered YOU ARE COVERED.  Take responsibility for your life and don't bother whining about how you are sure somebody is going to screw you.  Don't let them.  Caveat emptor.  Grow up.  Or get a better policy.  Some of them have zero loopholes.:shocked:




Bah there's always a grey area. Just look at some of the examples in Sicko. That girl had to fill out a questionaire before she got her policy and it asked if she had any major health problems before.

Once she needed a 50,000 operation they cancelled her plan because she failed to report a one time YEAST INFECTIOn as a "major medical problem" of the past.

You may roll your eyes and refuse to read anyything beyond the word "SICKO" simple because it has to do with Michael Moore. I hate him too, but there are plenty of scenarios in his documentary which are TRUE.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: BrAiN]
    #7687478 - 11/27/07 06:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

There are a million stories in the naked city. Some of them are sad ones.

If you have no problem with charging smokers extra, what about fatties? Drunks? Dopers? What level of scrutiny should they be subject to? Do you not understand the civil liberty horror show this opens up?


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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7687505 - 11/27/07 06:22 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

True.

Anyway to prove that someone takes on a voluntary bad habit should be used to adjust someone's rates... although it's hard to prove that someone ate 50 mccy d's hamburgers last week.

Sounds implausible? Sure... but I don't think America will ever get on board with Universal Health care so since we're in the hypothetical area I might as well just rant about my pipe dream of a health care system.

Or maybe instead of penalizing people who smoke,drink, eat buckets of spam... we reward the ones who don't meet certain goals.. maybe give them a few extra bucks to cover any deductibles that show up. That way it's still fair and you don't have to deal with the pussy ass ACLU getting up in arms.

Technically that last bit is the exact same as charging people more who don't have bad habits.. but the way I said it in the last paragraph makes it sounds more "marketable".


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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: BrAiN]
    #7689502 - 11/28/07 08:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i was thinkin about this last night and isn't it ironic that when we first started this conversation about health care. z god up there kept making refrences to the poor. its crazy because most of the poor people are covered by medicaid or social security. so actually the workin men are paying the inflated prices on health insurance. im not saying we should have free health care. even in socialized medicine you have to pay higher taxes. i just think these hospitals and HMO are cheating us and the only way this going to stop is for our goverment to regulate it.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #7689529 - 11/28/07 08:51 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I suppose, but to a minimal effort. I think once you get the gov't in there making more decisions, it will just get more beaurocratic.

Although for situations where someone feels their company is being shafted out of a procedure they're entitled to... people don't have a lot of money to be paying lawyers to fight these battles that will take months for an operation that is urgently needed. I'm all for having government positions that focus on things like this and any kind of corruption, I feel the gov't just needs to stay out as much as possible.

I think the gov't capable of just about as much corruption through bribery as health insurance companies... but maybe some sort of advocacy group for exceptionsal situations like the one I mentioned before would help.


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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: BrAiN]
    #7689637 - 11/28/07 09:26 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

the political figures are being paid off thats why its a sore subject.

just another scenario for ya

say you actually are sick what normally happens to you? you can't work... right? so therefore you can't pay ur health insurance cost. so then you normally get on medicaid if there is no money coming into the household. so who pays that? WE DO N OUR TAXES. so who do you think pays for all those dopers, drugies, alcoholics, when they don't work. tax payers.. WE also PAY FOR THE CHILDREN TOO.and we pay for them to have new babies also. so if im paying all that and paying for my own health insurance. im paying double and so are you. plus the doctors and the hospitals screw me because they can profit off of me and not on the gov't.


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