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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7686571 - 11/27/07 03:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I think "universal" encompasses that. Honestly, if it isn't that, I can't understand what you want that is different from now. The poor and the elderly are covered and everybody else can buy whatever they want or can afford.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7686588 - 11/27/07 03:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Children are soooooo naive. If the gummint runs all the health insurance then they will set the rates and decide who gets what treatment and by whom.




Like I said.. government doesn't HAVE to run it. It could just give out "food stamp like" vouchers and keep the capitalist, competitive way things are now.

Personally I think our health care SYSTEM ITSELF in America is fine.. I think it's the fact that a lot of people DON'T have access to it is the problem.. that and the fact that when people FINALLY DO get access to it.. they're coming into it with all kinds of health problems that were untreated during their time where they were uninsured.

Like I said.. I'm for the gov't giving vouchers and a universal system that covers everyone.... not for tear jerking reasons, but because I think that it will make the COST of health care go down because we'll be actually preventing a lot of problems before they get too far along and too expensive.


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InvisibleTomandjerry58
Stranger
Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 5,212
Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7686659 - 11/27/07 04:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

who said i was poor? and why do have to be poor to want universal health care. so if i need surgery for my heart or i get in life threating wreck and i rack up 100000 in medical bills where does that money come from because im sure my insurance company would find some way to deny my coverage. i don't know to many people that have that kind of money rich or poor. and who said u are getting the best health care because you pay more than ur neighbor...nobody wants to help anybody else.EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF. thats some pretty sad shit you know. you know why most countries have socialized health care its because of war or civil wars. so i guess we need something like that to happen for us to pull together


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #7686717 - 11/27/07 04:27 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe you should read your policy. And if it doesn't cover that maybe you should get another one. As to quality of care, that should be up to you to find out whether your DR is good. Or would you prefer to just be assigned one by some nameless faceless drone and then whine about it if he/she sucks?


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OfflineBrAiN
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Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7686749 - 11/27/07 04:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

again... straw man argument. Way to attack an argument here that NO ONE has made.

Who ever said that universal health care means you get assigned some nameless drone? Way to go, zappa. You've effectively beaten an argument that no one has asserted. Here's some play doh. Go make me an elephant or a doggie.

I don't think he's talking about something not being covered.. I think he's, saying pretty much all health insurance carriers look for any kind of loophole to get out having to pay for something.


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InvisibleTomandjerry58
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Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 5,212
Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: BrAiN]
    #7686826 - 11/27/07 04:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

thank you brain thats exactly what i meant. i enjoyed the debate zappaisgod. its always good to know where ohers stand on the issue:)


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InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #7686847 - 11/27/07 04:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

lets say i grant you your health coverage voucher program. what are you going to do with alcoholics and smokers? is the government going to help the drug dealer who gets shot when things go bad? basically, am i going to be paying to give medical attention to someone who needs it because of poor life choices?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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InvisibleArp
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Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7686861 - 11/27/07 04:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

drug dealers do a lot of good. don't forget that


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7686887 - 11/27/07 04:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

If we had sane drug laws, we wouldn't have to worry about drug dealers shooting each other.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7686943 - 11/27/07 05:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

but what about the millions of dollars that would be needed to treat victims of smoking related illnesses etc not to mention the illnesses that would most likely accompany the legalization of currently illegal drugs?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #7686952 - 11/27/07 05:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

If you read your policy and it says you are covered YOU ARE COVERED.  Take responsibility for your life and don't bother whining about how you are sure somebody is going to screw you.  Don't let them.  Caveat emptor.  Grow up.  Or get a better policy.  Some of them have zero loopholes.:shocked:


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InvisibleArp
roving mycophagist
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Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7687037 - 11/27/07 05:14 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I think I saw a study about that. Where people who live unhealthy lives die at an earlier age, and therefore cost society less than people who grow really old.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Arp]
    #7687052 - 11/27/07 05:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

right but when you have 10+ million smokers demanding health coverage from their illnesses what will your plan do? tell them to suck it up and die quickly so the rest of society can live longer? isn't that a total contradiction of universal health care/insurance to begin with?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7687112 - 11/27/07 05:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
right but when you have 10+ million smokers demanding health coverage from their illnesses what will your plan do? tell them to suck it up and die quickly so the rest of society can live longer? isn't that a total contradiction of universal health care/insurance to begin with?



I think he's saying that even with treatment, they die earlier, thus saving the health care system more money.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: Silversoul]
    #7687184 - 11/27/07 05:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Well, it's not so much health care as soc sec. Anyway, here's how smokers get treated in a socialized system:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=459574&in_page_id=1770

Quote:

Smokers are to be denied operations on the Health Service unless they give up cigarettes for at least four weeks beforehand.

Doctors will police the rule by ordering patients to take a blood test to prove they have not been smoking.




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InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7687221 - 11/27/07 05:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

so the plan is to give them treatment at the costs of millions of taxpayer dollars and then hope that they die early so the system saves money?

i'm confused...


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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InvisibleArp
roving mycophagist
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Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7687310 - 11/27/07 05:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)



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OfflineBrAiN
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Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7687319 - 11/27/07 05:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
lets say i grant you your health coverage voucher program. what are you going to do with alcoholics and smokers? is the government going to help the drug dealer who gets shot when things go bad? basically, am i going to be paying to give medical attention to someone who needs it because of poor life choices?




Then u make these people pay more. When you buy health insurance through an employer you can't be denied. When you buy it as a private consumer you have to fill out all these questionaires and if they want to conduct tests on you, they're allowed to. There ARE tests for smoking and alcohol. Make people take these tests. If they have habits that are a drag on the system.. make them pay more.


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OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
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Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7687337 - 11/27/07 05:54 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Well, it's not so much health care as soc sec. Anyway, here's how smokers get treated in a socialized system:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=459574&in_page_id=1770

Quote:

Smokers are to be denied operations on the Health Service unless they give up cigarettes for at least four weeks beforehand.

Doctors will police the rule by ordering patients to take a blood test to prove they have not been smoking.







Sounds fair enough to me.... only instead of denying them anything just make them pay a shitload more for it. In a socialized system it seems only fair that if you do things that are knowingly going to cause 10 times as many problems and are in the same system as people who don't.. you should pay more.

Like I said.. some insurance companies and life insurance companies in America already do this if you get your coverage OUTSIDE of an employer plan.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
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Re: When To Fight Back? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7687363 - 11/27/07 05:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If you read your policy and it says you are covered YOU ARE COVERED.  Take responsibility for your life and don't bother whining about how you are sure somebody is going to screw you.  Don't let them.  Caveat emptor.  Grow up.  Or get a better policy.  Some of them have zero loopholes.:shocked:




Bah there's always a grey area. Just look at some of the examples in Sicko. That girl had to fill out a questionaire before she got her policy and it asked if she had any major health problems before.

Once she needed a 50,000 operation they cancelled her plan because she failed to report a one time YEAST INFECTIOn as a "major medical problem" of the past.

You may roll your eyes and refuse to read anyything beyond the word "SICKO" simple because it has to do with Michael Moore. I hate him too, but there are plenty of scenarios in his documentary which are TRUE.


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